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Dual language immersion

4K views 14 replies 7 participants last post by  MamadeRumi 
#1 ·
Hi mamas, I know this topic has been covered in the past, but I don't see any really recent threads about it, so I thought I'd ask again.

What have your experiences been with dual language immersion programs? What are the pros and cons? Have you children in these programs initially lagged behind peers on test scores? How have they done long run?

Here's the situation. DS will be starting kindergarten next year. Our zoned school does not seem like a great fit, so I'm looking into schools he could transfer into. One option I am very interested is a dual language immersion program as a public school that is just as close as our "neighborhood school." It is a two way Spanish/English immersion program. There would be the same number of native English speakers and native Spanish speakers in the class. (Though about 90% of the students at the school are hispanic, and my son would be in the definite minority) In K and 1 80% of the instruction would be in Spanish, with the other 20% being mostly made up of their science program. Starting in 2nd grade they begin increasing the amount of English instruction, and by 4th grade they are 50/50 English and Spanish instruction.

I am bilingual myself (Spanish and English) but have not been successful in teaching my son Spanish, and I really love the idea of him learning a second language while he is so young. We also visited the school building for a tour recently, and I liked the feel of the place. I've talked a bit to the principal and one of the teachers in the program, and in a few days I'll be sitting in on a Kindergarten class, so I hope to have a better idea about what I think about the school after that.

My big concern is that the school actually receives very low rating from the state and several school rating sites, and the standardized test scores for the school are quite low. Now, I'm not a big believer in standardized test scores, so I don't know how much I should worry about those. I do, however, want to make sure that my son is getting a good education in all areas, not just in Spanish. Also, it doesn't seem as though they have many students identified as gifted. I don't know whether my son will be gifted or not, but several members of his extended family have been, and I know how frustrating it was for those of us who then didn't have gifted programs or enrichment available. But maybe the language learning would to some extent take the place of a gifted enrichment program?

anyway, I'd appreciate any feedback you can offer.
 
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#2 ·
We have our son in a language immersion program. Studies show that learning a second language is good for kids' brains. Plus, if one becomes proficient then it's a marketable skill later in life.
I think that in some instances it can coincide with a delay in proof that a child is learning, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to decide against language immersion.
 
#3 ·
I have no had my child in a dual language immersion programs, but my kids starting learning Spanish around second grade. I think learning multiple languages as been a major factor in why they are so academically advanced for their ages (6th grades at a 8th grade level).

If you can your children in a dual language program I say go for it! The work world is so competitive now knowing two languages can really help them stand out, and is almost a must if working anywhere bordered by Mexico.
 
#4 ·
Having a large percentage of kids who are not native English speakers causes low standardized tests scores, and rating are directly linked to those scores. I would try to get beyond the test scores in figuring out if this school is a good fit or not. Even looking at the scores for kids who aren't classified as ELL can be misleading because many kids are counted as "proficient" in English before they are on the same level as their peers who speak English as home.

Overall, dual immersion programs are a powerful model and usually show great gains for both sets of students.

What if you took it year to year? My kids ended up doing very different things at different stages of their education (including homeschool, public school, and private school). If you like the program for K and first, but later decide he needs to be somewhere with a gifted program, you can change schools later. Most school don't have much in the way of gifted programing in the early grades anyway.
 
#7 ·
What if you took it year to year? My kids ended up doing very different things at different stages of their education (including homeschool, public school, and private school). If you like the program for K and first, but later decide he needs to be somewhere with a gifted program, you can change schools later. Most school don't have much in the way of gifted programing in the early grades anyway.
Well, I have thought of that, but I've also heard that to get the benefits of a dual language program you have to commit to it for several years. If I put DS in a dual language program for a few years and then transferred him to another school, he frankly might not be ready for a gifted program because he would be used to doing much of his coursework in Spanish. Also, since i'm asking for an interzone transfer for him, K appears to be the easiest time to get him in. If we then tried to transfer him somewhere else later, it might be harder to get in AND we would lose the transfer to the dual language school.
 
#5 ·
My kids attended a two-way Spanish/English immersion program exactly as you describe it, except ours was one strand within a larger school. They both did K-5 in the program, and DD1 took a Spanish for Spanish Speakers class from grades 6-8 (DD2 is in it now). Our school also has low test scores, and, like you, after experiencing the school firsthand, I don't put too much stock in those. Ours happens to be a low-income school, so it is classified as Title I - there are some extra supports given to Title I schools such as smaller class sizes, which were nice. We also had fantastic art and music programs, and an active PTA. All pluses. Being a translator, I was already biased toward a program like this, but once my kids went through it, we were very happy with it.
 
#6 ·
I had the chance to visit a dual language K/1 classroom at this school yesterday, and I really loved it. The children seemed happy. The teacher seemed engaging. I could see that the students were definitely learning. I also got a chance to talk to the teacher and the principal about the test scores, and they confirmed that a huge part of the problem is that the tests are administered in English. Last week Kindergartners were given math tests on Ipads. Each child was given an IPAD with headphones, and they were supposed to complete the exams without any assistance from the teachers. But all of the instructions were in English, and these students study math in Spanish. You can imagine the results. The kids had a great time pressing buttons on the screen and making colors change and lights flash, but probably didn't do really well on the exam. To be perfectly honest, if you gave an IPAD to my son, who is a native English speaker and who has a pretty advanced vocabulary for his age, he would probably intentionally answer some questions incorrectly because he would want to see what the IPAD would do in that case. I've seen him do that when he's playing a math or reading game.

So, overall I'm feeling really interested in this school, but I still do have a couple of concerns. The class I observed was half kindergarten and half first grade. There were 19 students total, and only 4 of them were native English speakers -- all four of those were in first grade. The teacher explained that there had not been enough native English speakers, and since she already had 4 1st graders in the class who were English dominant, she didn't take any of the English dominant kindergartners. This meant that I didn't actually get to see how a kindergarten reading lesson in Spanish might go for a child like my son, who speaks English at home. (I did, however, see the first graders and saw that they are learning to read and write in Spanish. ) More importantly, I wonder how important it is for the program to have an equal number of English and Spanish speakers in the class. In the reading I've done, I've always seen that the ideal is to have half the class be native English speakers and half be native Spanish speakers. Do any of your have experience with or knowledge about this? How much does it matter if there are not an equal number of English and Spanish speakers?
 
#8 · (Edited)
Re: math testing - My kids had a week or two of English math practice before the exams in the years math was in Spanish so that they would know the requisite vocabulary.

Re: no. of English/Spanish speakers - I don't really know the answer to that. Our rooms were pretty even and they did English and Spanish reading groups. Regarding reading, if you are a Spanish speaker, I think that would help your son a lot! I am trilingual but none of those languages is Spanish - I couldn't even read the instructions for my kids' homework (except math, which came home in English as well). We did fine.
 
#9 ·
Re: math testing - My kids had a week or two of English math practice before the exams in the years math was in Spanish so that they would know the requisite vocabulary.
I can see the benefits of doing that, but in this case the exam was given one month into a kindergarten program in which they do the math in Spanish. Giving them a week or two of English math practice at that early point might really undermine the goals of the dual language program.

Regarding reading, if you are a Spanish speaker, I think that would help your son a lot! I am trilingual but none of those languages is Spanish - I couldn't even read the instructions for my kids' homework (except math, which came home in English as well). We did fine.
Thank you, that is comforting to hear. I can speak and read Spanish, so I know I'd be able to help my son. And the teacher yesterday told me that in the early years the homework was basic enough that even someone who didn't know much Spanish would be able to help, which is the situation my DH will be in. But as an English professor and the mother of a son who is already learning to read a bit in English, I feel a little anxious. This school doesn't have separate reading lessons in Spanish and English, at least not at first. They start teaching all the kids to read in Spanish. Then in second grade they start formally teaching them to read in English. I have been told that although that's where the formal instruction starts, many students informally start learning to read/write English before that because their Science classes and specials classes are in English.

I guess basically I have to remind myself how amazing their little brains are. If we get into this school, I imagine it will be really confusing for my son at first, but at some point it will click and then he'll come out the other end knowing two languages, having been challenged, and having had his brain stimulated by learning a second language so young.

Sigh. I know on some level that the world will not end because I choose the wrong kindergarten for my son or fail to get him a transfer to the one we want. But on the other hand this feels like a really big decision. I so want him to enjoy school and to love learning, as I always have, and I think a positive kindergarten experience sets the stage for that.
:meditate
 
#10 ·
Sigh. I know on some level that the world will not end because I choose the wrong kindergarten for my son or fail to get him a transfer to the one we want. But on the other hand this feels like a really big decision. I so want him to enjoy school and to love learning, as I always have, and I think a positive kindergarten experience sets the stage for that.
:meditate
I hear you. Our main priority was doing a dual-language program. I'm a translator and we already speak another language at home, so we were really interested in the idea. The school was fine, the teachers were fine - of course there were some ups and downs, but nothing major. If we had had a bad experience with a teacher or something, maybe we would have reevaluated, but it all worked out. My younger child is now in a Spanish for Spanish Speakers class in middle school, but would like to switch to French at some point, and the older one decided to switch to Japanese in high school. Even though they may not continue with Spanish, I felt the benefits of the program were worth it. They learned so much about (mostly) Mexican culture and there are innumerable benefits to multilingualism that last a person's whole life. Ultimately, though, you have to go with what you're comfortable with.
 
#11 · (Edited)
My big concern is that the school actually receives very low rating from the state and several school rating sites, and the standardized test scores for the school are quite low. Now, I'm not a big believer in standardized test scores, so I don't know how much I should worry about those. I do, however, want to make sure that my son is getting a good education in all areas, not just in Spanish. Also, it doesn't seem as though they have many students identified as gifted. I don't know whether my son will be gifted or not, but several members of his extended family have been, and I know how frustrating it was for those of us who then didn't have gifted programs or enrichment available. But maybe the language learning would to some extent take the place of a gifted enrichment program?
My DC tried a language immersion for pre-K and it didn't work out for her BUT there is so much different between that set-up and this immersion school for your son that it's probably not relevant.

Having searched for choice in education for my DC, I totally feel your pain when it comes to weighing in test scores. On the one hand, we don't really support the tests to begin with so how can we put any weight into them, right? I will say that as time went on I ended up putting more and more consideration in to testing. And I combined it with some intel about whether the school taught to the test. It goes against my ideals but it's what's worked to help us find good schools for my DC.

I would say that it wouldn't be a bad thing to just ask them about their scores. They no doubt give it a lot of thought. If they don't have an answer that resonates with your values, I'd keep looking. If they say that scores are low and that is predicted for dual langage schools and that they refuse to teach to the test, maybe you're on to a gold mine.

Looking into the future a little you will want to ask what ways your DC's test scores will be relevant to his future school options. We have several merit-based programs for middle and high. I will say that I think finding the best fit for elementary is the way to go, testing be darned...though you may be kicking yourself come early 5th grade.

Good luck in your search!
 
#14 ·
I would say that it wouldn't be a bad thing to just ask them about their scores. They no doubt give it a lot of thought. If they don't have an answer that resonates with your values, I'd keep looking. If they say that scores are low and that is predicted for dual langage schools and that they refuse to teach to the test, maybe you're on to a gold mine.
Well, that is more or less what happened, so maybe this is a gold mine.

Looking into the future a little you will want to ask what ways your DC's test scores will be relevant to his future school options. We have several merit-based programs for middle and high. I will say that I think finding the best fit for elementary is the way to go, testing be darned...though you may be kicking yourself come early 5th grade.

Good luck in your search!
Well, until recently the middle and high school options have been even grimmer than the elementary school options around here. However, recently that has changed. This dual language school now goes through 8th grade, and there are a few good middle and HS that are lottery based. One of them even has a dual language program, but I don't really want to wait until he's 12 for him to start learning a second language.
 
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