would you send your caucasian child to an all african american school? - Page 11 - Mothering Forums

View Poll Results: would you send your caucasian child to the school described below?
Yes. 92 27.54%
No. 137 41.02%
Maybe/ not sure. 90 26.95%
Other. 15 4.49%
Voters: 334. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-05-2007, 05:14 PM
 
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Right -- I would find it odd if they said categorically "no" to the proposed question yet would be okay for their kid to be an exchange student in Japan -- or France or Russia for that matter.
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Nikki98 View Post
You got that right. I have stated this in earlier posts, but some of the thinking that I have encountered here in this community (that supports "out of the box"/alternative thinking) has been utterly depressing. I just don't get it. I see caucasian girls here dreading their hair, etc., accepting the "cool" things of black culture, yet not completely embracing the very people of that culture-how stinkin' ironic. Truly many can have black friends, family members, some may have even intimate relations with POC, but on some level-maybe totally subconcious- the superiority complex comes in to play. Like I said, maybe its not intentional, but its still ashame (and it makes me think that racial justice is just too much of an idealistic concept).
But isn't "accepting the 'cool' things of black culture" at least one step in the right direction? Absolutely granted, it's not complete acceptance, you're right. No argument. However, it's soooo far from where things used to be not long ago in this country were "white" stations wouldn't play Elvis because he sounded black, KWIM? I'm not saying, "Oh, let's be grateful for the fact that the lousy situation is better than the lousier situation before and ignore the fact that it's still lousy," but I am saying to be grateful for what has come to pass so far. To make a comparison, America's racism is like a 600-pound person who used to be 1200 pounds. They're not healthy yet, not by a long shot -- but they've come a ways to the goal.
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:28 PM
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Yeah, we better not have it placed in the vicinity of the gifted forum.
I understand the point that you're trying to make, but I want to ask you whether it's absolutely necessary to show support and sympathy with those who want a multicultural forum by deliberately insulting gifted children.

Your joke implies that the parents who post in the gifted forum are inherently élitist, people who seek the "gifted" label for its status value and therefore wouldn't want their virtual neighborhood brought down in some way by the multicultural forum.

Do you think that this attitude is genuinely reflective of the people who post on the gifted forum?
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:31 PM
 
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No, America's racism might be a 1000-pound man. Maybe. And that's being generous. Unless it has a constant impact on you and your family, though, it's hard to see exactly how pervasive it is.

Accepting the cool things within a culture is not nearly the same as accepting the people behind those things. In some ways, it's worst than rejecting those things, it feels like, "here, I'll take this away from you, adapt it, make it my own, but I just want what I can take from you--you yourself still are not good enough."
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:39 PM
 
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I understand the point that you're trying to make, but I want to ask you whether it's absolutely necessary to show support and sympathy with those who want a multicultural forum by deliberately insulting gifted children.

Your joke implies that the parents who post in the gifted forum are inherently élitist, people who seek the "gifted" label for its status value and therefore wouldn't want their virtual neighborhood brought down in some way by the multicultural forum.

Do you think that this attitude is genuinely reflective of the people who post on the gifted forum?
Oh GOD!!! Can't she make a point--a valid one--without anyone twisting it around and making it *all about them*??? That wasn't an insult towards gifted kids; it was a valid observation about the idea demonstrated clearly on this thread that schools with a large African American student body are somehow assumed to be substandard. It's about bigotry and racism, and assumptions that are clearly an issue, not really about the gifted forum. :
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:43 PM
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I agree!! I bet if I made a poll asking members if they consider themselves racist, the percentage would be far, far below the 40% in this thread who would not send their child to an all AA school (or maybe it really is the average test scores and blah facilities that made them select that option... who knows! But I doubt it.).
I don't think this is fair. I thought a great deal about this poll (and I still haven't voted), but I probably would vote "no" based exactly on that: the average test scores and blah facilities. We're homeschooling, and I admit that I have a fairly high standard about the quality of education kids get in our school district (I'm a teacher), so frankly, I would be very unwilling for her to go to a school at all, much less one that's average/blah.

As far as the AA issue, I wouldn't care, frankly. If Marva Collins were to open a classical education school catering to AA people in my neighborhood (which is largely middle-to-lower-income mixed-race) and that school were to show performance similar to other schools or programs founded by Marva Collins, I would be VERY eager to have my DD go there when she gets into high school based on the quality of the education.

Same with sororities (a bit OT, sorry). I finished reading Alexandra Robbins' book about sororities (white) contrasted with sororities for black women, and frankly, I wished I'd been qualified to join the black women's sorority because it sounded as if it had the right values: a high priority on mutual support and a focus on academics and professional networking. Awesome.

Call me racist if you will, but to the best of my knowledge, anyway, I'd care about the quality of education.
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:47 PM
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Oh GOD!!! Can't she make a point--a valid one--without anyone twisting it around and making it *all about them*??? That wasn't an insult towards gifted kids; it was a valid observation about the idea demonstrated clearly on this thread that schools with a large African American student body are somehow assumed to be substandard. It's about bigotry and racism, and assumptions that are clearly an issue, not really about the gifted forum. :
The problem is that tamping down one form of bias or prejudice often leads to other forms of bias and prejudice becoming socially acceptable. For example, it used to be acceptable to tell Polish jokes with the point being to mock the supposed stupidity of Polish people.

Now that this kind of obvious ethnic bias is taboo, it's become socially acceptable to tell blonde jokes with the point being to mock the supposed stupidity of blondes -- specifically female blondes.

My point is this: bias is wrong. It doesn't matter whether it's to black people, blonde people, Polish people, or gifted people. It's still not acceptable. Yes, I am asking her to examine the biases that she was perpetuating -- very probably unwittingly perpetuating, but still perpetuating.

Hope this helps clarify my point, and I regret that you became angry.
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:49 PM
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No, America's racism might be a 1000-pound man. Maybe. And that's being generous. Unless it has a constant impact on you and your family, though, it's hard to see exactly how pervasive it is.

Accepting the cool things within a culture is not nearly the same as accepting the people behind those things. In some ways, it's worst than rejecting those things, it feels like, "here, I'll take this away from you, adapt it, make it my own, but I just want what I can take from you--you yourself still are not good enough."
I understand what you're saying, particularly the part about cultural appropriation -- something bell hooks has written about eloquently with regard to Madonna, for instance -- but here's a question: would racism be improved or worsened if people did not accept the cool things within a culture?
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:53 PM
 
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She wasn't attacking gifted kids or anyone on the gifted forum! She was pointing out the assumptions that people make. Yeah, it was a joke, but there was a grain of truth running through it. One of the problems with trying to twist someone's comments around like that is that it distracts from the real issue and, once again, we're following Elvis down a side street. At some point, if we really want change, we have to grit our teeth and stop taking things so personally, especially when there's an element of truth.
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:55 PM
 
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Thanks Missy!

Yes, I was being tongue in cheek. People were hinting that AA schools are substandard, the kids are not as educated/intelligent, etc. The stereotype of the wealthier, whiter school were the kids are smarter, more gifted, have better teachers and so on. So I was being "smart" as in if they put the forum near the gifted forum, it might "ruin the neighborhood". It actually had nothing to do with who actually posts or posters in the gifted forum. I know for a fact gifted people come in all colors/ethnicities/races/religions, etc. I was making a connection between AA-poor/less educated and white-not poor/more intelligent. I know that is not true and I hope you do too, hence why it is called "tongue in cheek".

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To make a comparison, America's racism is like a 600-pound person who used to be 1200 pounds. They're not healthy yet, not by a long shot -- but they've come a ways to the goal.
Not everywhere has come that far. Segregated proms and student councils still occur in parts of the south. Alot of racism is hidden, institutionalized. Yes, somethings have improved, some have changed, some have shapeshifted! Some people feel "forced" to accept "THEM".
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:56 PM
 
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The school our children attend right now is predominantly Hawaiian. DS is half Mexican, so he blends very well and has had no trouble assimilating. And nol, I'm not saying all little brown children look alike, I'm just saying he stands out less. DD is very white and pale, and has had lots of trouble with bullying. I have noticed that the caucasian children who are not having trouble are very tanned and brimming with self confidence. DD has self esteem problems and has not picked up any color since we've been here, which makes her very vulnerable to their taunts. Frankly, she stands out like a sore thumb. If we had been here from preschool, she would have been OK, having made friends early in life, but 3rd grade was just too late I fear. While it is true very small children are color blind, preteens are not. They are starting to pick up the prejudices of their parents, and it can get really ugly. There is another race that seems to be lower on the social ladder than caucasians, and my children report some really ugly incidents to me. Both of my children are quite aware that it is not acceptable to pick on anybody, period.

I have lived in places where I observed prejudice, but never like this, and never so out in the open.

Our children have been raised to be color blind, and this is very hurtful for them and us, but nearly everyone we talk to has had similar experiences. If I had it to do over again, I would have insisted we do more research on schools before choosing our community. Now we are faced with trying to learn how to homeschool one child or figure out how to pay for private school to get her out of there.

The whole situation is sad, and it infuriates me that people are teaching their children to be so hateful.

So, in the case described in this poll, I would be inclined to think, once bitten, twice shy. I hope over time my dd can overcome this, but I am really worried about it. Interestingly, DH grew up in Oakland, CA, and was one of a very few caucasians in a predominantly african american school. Because he had high self esteem, he had no problems fitting in. It seems to me that as long as your self esteem is intact, encountering prejudice is not as big of a problem for you as it is for someone less sure of themselves.

Maybe a question for another poll might be, 'how do you think your child would handle being the only caucasian in his or her class?'

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Old 07-05-2007, 06:03 PM
 
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The school our children attend right now is predominantly Hawaiian. DS is half Mexican, so he blends very well and has had no trouble assimilating. And nol, I'm not saying all little brown children look alike, I'm just saying he stands out less. DD is very white and pale, and has had lots of trouble with bullying. I have noticed that the caucasian children who are not having trouble are very tanned and brimming with self confidence. DD has self esteem problems and has not picked up any color since we've been here, which makes her very vulnerable to their taunts. Frankly, she stands out like a sore thumb. If we had been here from preschool, she would have been OK, having made friends early in life, but 3rd grade was just too late I fear. While it is true very small children are color blind, preteens are not. They are starting to pick up the prejudices of their parents, and it can get really ugly. There is another race that seems to be lower on the social ladder than caucasians, and my children report some really ugly incidents to me. Both of my children are quite aware that it is not acceptable to pick on anybody, period.

I have lived in places where I observed prejudice, but never like this, and never so out in the open.

Our children have been raised to be color blind, and this is very hurtful for them and us, but nearly everyone we talk to has had similar experiences. If I had it to do over again, I would have insisted we do more research on schools before choosing our community. Now we are faced with trying to learn how to homeschool one child or figure out how to pay for private school to get her out of there.

The whole situation is sad, and it infuriates me that people are teaching their children to be so hateful.

So, in the case described in this poll, I would be inclined to think, once bitten, twice shy. I hope over time my dd can overcome this, but I am really worried about it. Interestingly, DH grew up in Oakland, CA, and was one of a very few caucasians in a predominantly african american school. Because he had high self esteem, he had no problems fitting in. It seems to me that as long as your self esteem is intact, encountering prejudice is not as big of a problem for you as it is for someone less sure of themselves.

Maybe a question for another poll might be, 'how do you think your child would handle being the only caucasian in his or her class?'
That's more situation specific, and really a "maybe" vote, not a categorical "no".
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Old 07-05-2007, 06:25 PM
 
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Call me racist if you will, but to the best of my knowledge, anyway, I'd care about the quality of education.
IMHO, you explained your answer. I am not sure why anyone would call you a racist based on what you wrote.

Again, silent "No's" speak volumes and some people have openly or unwittingly asmitted their own racist feelings here. Others explained there answers and line of thinking clearly, without any inkling (is that a real word, gotta look that up!) of racism.
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:32 PM
 
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IMHO, you explained your answer. I am not sure why anyone would call you a racist based on what you wrote.

Again, silent "No's" speak volumes and some people have openly or unwittingly asmitted their own racist feelings here. Others explained there answers and line of thinking clearly, without any inkling (is that a real word, gotta look that up!) of racism.
But even those of us who explained our views very clearly and our reasoning were still labeled racist or classist and our reasoning was dismissed. Many of us had valid academic reasons for voting no and yet somehow that was twisted into being racism.

Also I think what thismama posted a few pages back about this thread not encouraging tolerance as much as naivety is very, very spot-on.


And on the subject of foreign exchange students ~ I would have no problem with my child, WHEN THEY'RE OLDER, participating in a foreign exchange program. But I don't think this is a comparable situation. You're trying to say that placing a young child in an environment with "mediocre facilities" and "not-so great academics" is exactly like placing a teenager or young adult in a whole other country, surrounded by a unique set of learning experiences and the opportunity to immerse oneself in a foreign environment and culture. :
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:45 PM
 
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But even those of us who explained our views very clearly and our reasoning were still labeled racist or classist and our reasoning was dismissed. Many of us had valid academic reasons for voting no and yet somehow that was twisted into being racism.
Actually, menudo didn't give some sort of blanket pass to anyone who "explained their views". In fact, she said,
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Again, silent "No's" speak volumes and some people have openly or unwittingly asmitted their own racist feelings here. Others explained there answers and line of thinking clearly, without any inkling (is that a real word, gotta look that up!) of racism.
Some of those explained viewpoints exposed a whole new layer of bigotry here. Just because the explanations made sense to the people that wrote them doesn't excuse any racism behind them, intended or not.
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Old 07-05-2007, 09:32 PM
 
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I find this very interesting. We live in Silicon Valley. We're just buying a new house and by default choosing a school district for DS.

It happened that we were drawn to a "white" area. Our choice was not made based on race, but that's how it worked out. We choose neighborhood based on neighborhood "feel" - consistent housing, houses well maintained, not a lot of McMansions right on the street, etc. Our son will attend an elementary school that is 58% white, 24% hispanic, 9% Asian. He will be joining the 1% "Multiple or No Response" category.

Is it an us vs them? I'm not really sure. We looked at an Eichler house in Sunnyvale. We also looked an an Eichler in Willow Glen. In Willow Glen, the Eichler neighborhood generally kept true to the Eichler style. In Sunnyvale, there were more inconsistent additions added, peaked roofs added, etc. We preferred Willow Glen by far. Willow Glen is much more "white" than Sunnyvale. Because we like that style of neighborhood better, does that mean that we don't want to live somewhere with a high population of Asians? Maybe in some ways. My DH is Asian, he is first generation (moved to US when he was 10), but he does not want to live in an All-Asian neighborhood or have our son attend an All-Asian school.

He also does not want to live in an all-White neighborhood or an all-White school. We would never consider living in area where there would be like 1 or 2 Asian kids per school.

I don't know, it's all so hard. Like am I obligated to choose a house in a neighborhood that I like less because otherwise I'm choosing the "whiter" neighborhood? Ugh. Well, we'll see how it goes.
You said you chose the area, b/c you liked the houses better. I never said anyone was obligated to choose a house in an area that isn't made up of the same race(s) as they are. Also, I never said the school was ALL asian, I said it was about 50/50. Would you be comfortable sending your son to a school where 50% of the kids were asian american? Or would it make you uncomfortable? At least your son will not be the only asian kid in his class.

Would I myself want to live in an all asian neighborhood? Probably not, I'd want to live somewhere with all different types of ppl, including asians, but I don't feel that you should only fraternize with ppl of the same race... in fact that is exactly what I am speaking out against.

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I would not put my white child in a all AA school, all asian school, all blue with green polka dots school. Why? because she would be singled out as simple as that.
So, doesn't that mean that my asian american child is singled out by going to an all white school???? So, it is NOT ok for your white child not to endure being singled out, but it is ok for non-white children to have to endure being singled out at an all white school???? Seems like a double std to me.

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I have been reading thru the recent posts, and really what has been coming to my mind is that perhaps different racial groups (Africans, African-Americans, Latinos, Asian, Asian-Amercians, as well as many other ethnic groups) are only "tolerable" in small amounts-meaning that a few are okay, but when larger amounts of "ethnic" people come into play-oh no its a threat. Really I feel as some caucasian people start to feel threatened when they become "outnumbered" so to speak. Maybe they fear losing control, influence or both. So instead of dealing, they may move away. My question is (with the increase of multicultural marriages, and the steady increase of the non-white population ) how long can they keep running? Yet, we as "minorities" have had to learn to assimilate -in some way- into the white culture at large.

I read some of the kimchi moms blog and was really shocked about the "welcome to America" comment (a comment made by the silicon moms). Thats crazy. Tell the truth-isn't America made up of immigrants? The only difference is that some immigrant families have been in this country longer-thats all.
Nikki, I'm glad to see that you took the time to read through the kimchi mamas blog. Yeah, "welcome to america, home of the intolerant" is often how I feel. I agree with you. Minorities are expected to assimilate into white culture, but it seems that it only goes one way. White culture is not expected to do anything, except expect other ppl to do things their way.
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Old 07-05-2007, 09:42 PM
 
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So, doesn't that mean that my asian american child is singled out by going to an all white school???? So, it is NOT ok for your white child not to endure being singled out, but it is ok for non-white children to have to endure being singled out at an all white school???? Seems like a double std to me.
If I were Asian, I wouldn't want my kid to be the only one in his/her school.

Heck, I won't send my kids to the nearest schools, because they're (primary and secondary) either Church of England or Roman Catholic. (Religious schools are state funded here). So I wouldn't want my kids singled out amongst white English speaking kids either.

DD 01/2007, DS 09/2011

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Old 07-05-2007, 10:18 PM
 
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"But even those of us who explained our views very clearly and our reasoning were still labeled racist or classist and our reasoning was dismissed. Many of us had valid academic reasons for voting no and yet somehow that was twisted into being racism."

(Excuse lack of quote box-using my home computer which has issues-to say the least.)

I think few, if any, non racist reasons were twisted. Sometimes we don't realize our own issues. Sometimes we deny them. And sometimes we just can't get our point acrossed correctly-especially online. If you know you are not racist, you should not be concerned about those being called out on their comments! And personally, I am focusing on the LACK of comments from those who voted No... I appreciate those that did comment, at least the yhad the nerve to say their piece, either way.

For example of those who do not (yet, if ever )realize they are or can be racist: I have a neighbor, a white woman, who thinks she can't be racist, b/c 2 of her kids are black. Her words. She has no clue how offensive alot of what she says is and how PLAIN ignorant it is. Tons of stereotyping, etc. Her friend and other neighbor-a woman who identifies as white albeit she told me her Mom is Mexican-told me her dog barks at my son b/c her dog is racist and doesn't like black people, including her own nephews. I kid you not. NEITHER of these people consider themselves racist or bigotted. Prime examples of people not realizing they are racist or have some racist tendencies. Or someone fine with "black" neighbors but ballistic when DD dates black neighbor. They may insist they are not racist, but "interacial dating" is WRONG but friendship is not. :

I know I have given MANY (maybe too many) examples, but I just hope at least person gets it.
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Old 07-05-2007, 10:28 PM
 
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If my child were a PoC, I would *definitely* make sure they did not attend a school where they were the only person of their race.
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Old 07-05-2007, 10:42 PM
 
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That's more situation specific, and really a "maybe" vote, not a categorical "no".
Yes, that's true. We have a friend who is one of the very few black people in Napa. He calls himself black, btw, not African American. Anyway, it is quite clear to him that there is still a lot of prejudice against him in that particular city, which is in one of the most racially tolerant states there is. Sometimes you don't know until you move somewhere what the people are really like.


I wish everyone we met here was as nice as most of the people we meet, but they aren't, and there seems to be a majority of them at the school who are not teaching their children any kind of tolerance at all. Ds isn't having problems, but both of them have reported various prejudices from children at school. It's sad.

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Old 07-05-2007, 10:59 PM
 
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If my child were a PoC, I would *definitely* make sure they did not attend a school where they were the only person of their race.
If only it were that easy!

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Old 07-05-2007, 11:02 PM
 
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If only it were that easy!
True. Depends on where you live, for sure. But yeah.
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Old 07-05-2007, 11:03 PM
 
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True. Depends on where you live, for sure. But yeah.
Yup. Job transfers, purchasing an expensive house, can often mean you're the only one

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Old 07-05-2007, 11:16 PM
 
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I dont have double standars i wouldnt send my asian child to an all black school or my black child to an all white school but thats me and yes i would make acomodations in my life to make sure of that, about exchange students we are talking about teenagers looking for an expirience in a diferent country i think that is a totally diferent situation.
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Old 07-05-2007, 11:53 PM
 
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just based on being a biracial student in a predominately white school and knowing the implications of that
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Old 07-06-2007, 01:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by thismama View Post
If my child were a PoC, I would *definitely* make sure they did not attend a school where they were the only person of their race.
While I'd agree with that on the basis of wanting them to have someone to identify with, otoh my friend just moved up with his son, they're from Oakland, to our very, very rural area to attend the local Culinary Arts program. His son is the ONLY non-White child in his preschool and will likely be the only one in the local elementary school as well.

Then again I don't know where I'm going with this since he didn't choose the area based on academics or economics, as we are one of the poorest places in the nation. He just wanted to get away from the violence and craziness of Oakland... (( ETA: and of course attend the Culinary Program because it's been his life dream to be a chef ))



After thinking about it more... yeah I think it does change things when we reverse the races. BUT maybe I'm just thinking this, because of all the other generally associated problems with Minority areas (such as all that has already been stated, poverty, institutionalized racism, etc acting as barriers to solving social problems) v. the general advantages of a White area.



can't... think...... tired

:



If I was considering relocating to an area that I knew to be not economically depressed, with great schools and excellent social support networks, even if my kid would be the ONLY one of their race I'd move there, in a heartbeat. If I could afford it, that is. And if there were jobs, and support for our lifestyle, and good churches.

Um.


* afk for a bit, dinner
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Old 07-06-2007, 01:09 AM
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I understand the point that you're trying to make, but I want to ask you whether it's absolutely necessary to show support and sympathy with those who want a multicultural forum by deliberately insulting gifted children.

Your joke implies that the parents who post in the gifted forum are inherently élitist, people who seek the "gifted" label for its status value and therefore wouldn't want their virtual neighborhood brought down in some way by the multicultural forum.
good point.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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Old 07-06-2007, 01:14 AM
 
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The fact that my child would be the only white child would not be a factor in my decision. The other stuff would be.
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Old 07-06-2007, 02:02 AM
 
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You are not talking about having a Waldorf curriculum for all children, though-- right? From what I know about Waldorf, there would be few (if any) accommodations made for POC and English language learners. Waldorf seems extremely Euro-centric.
Waldorf schools vary depending on the population of the children and the teachers. In Israel, the schools follow a Jewish festival calendar primarily. In Africa, African and so on across the world. The first Waldorf school was in Germany and was very euro centric. Many of the schools in the US are too but most are expanding and including many backgrounds. My children learn Japanese and Spanish and with those, they also learn about those cultures and celebrate them. Holidays such as Kwanzaa and a special emphasis on Martin Luther King Day have added to the rich culture at our school.
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Old 07-06-2007, 11:37 AM
 
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Your joke implies that the parents who post in the gifted forum are inherently élitist, people who seek the "gifted" label for its status value and therefore wouldn't want their virtual neighborhood brought down in some way by the multicultural forum.
Again I am sorry if that is how a few people interpretted my comment. At the same time, the misinterpretation does get my point across too. It doesn't feel good when someone appears to assume you are a negative due to where you live (or post), your color, neighborhood, religion, intelligence, lack of intelligence, etc. In a non virtual world alot of people WOULD feel this way. Not necessarily the people in said school, but even outsiders who feel a large proportion of non whites will disturb what they feel is somehow theirs and who they consider to be part of their group. The point is to get people to *think*. Sometimes it takes getting offended to get it. Hell, I was fired from a job for being assumed a certain religion. And know what? I know I just GOT A TASTE OF what many people live daily. I learned from it, dealt with it, and knew if I took it somewhere I would get alot further than a POC in the same situation-trust me on that. A "white girl" discrimated against-how dare they!

This does seem to be going in circles. The poll continues to grow, more and more No's with little explanation WHY.
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