Multiplication Tables - Gone? - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

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#91 of 118 Old 08-14-2007, 07:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
Some do. I know it is boring. When I was in school we had to memorize things from the cathechism every week all through eight years of religious school...some were better at it than others, I know, but it does not mean it should not be a way, ONE WAY to learn.

I feel sorry that your DD got kicked out of the TAG program. Here we call it the GATE program. That is why parents throw up their arms and simply homeschool their children and/or hire a tutor for things like algebra that the parents did not learn well themselves the first time around.

I did that.

math is not everyone's forte'. It should be, because it is an international language of sorts and very logical.
She wasn't kicked out of TAG. She was kicked out of Pre-Algebra in the 6th grade. She took it in 7th, Algebra in 8th and is supposed to be taking Integrated 2 in 9th. Whatever that is.

As for GATE, we are from Cali. We moved to Oregon when DD was in 6th grade. I was always told that Cali had the worse schools in the nation. WRONG! The schools here are MUCH MUCH worse than the ones down there.

We were in the North Bay for what that is worth. I know the schools in the central valley still suck bad.

Oh as for TAG. there is no program.. it doesn't exist. They label them and that is the end of it. :
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#92 of 118 Old 08-14-2007, 07:43 PM
 
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Absolutely, I just don't want the schools using it as an excuse to skip teaching math basics, including math facts, and leave out majority of kids who are able to benefit from it.
Yes but then they fail kids who can't memorize them but are perfectly capable of doing the math.
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#93 of 118 Old 08-14-2007, 07:44 PM
 
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I am Sorry i misread your post. Those labels and programs are often worthless. Why would they bother to test the children and then label the children that way if nothing is going to be done?

BTW, California has THE LARGEST textbook market in the nation, so if California is buying a book, then the rest of the nation is going to buy the same book, whether it is good or not.

Ten years ago, my DS1 and DS2 were taught mathematics as "Integrated Math" in which they learned algebra, geometry, trig and calculus as a three year unit. Then when my two sons left school, the program ended and they went back to the traditional method.

After buying all of those books and re-training the math teachers and entire math departments in the new method, it was dropped. All that money and time were wasted, and my boys are confused about math.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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#94 of 118 Old 08-14-2007, 08:00 PM
 
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Yes but then they fail kids who can't memorize them but are perfectly capable of doing the math.
They wouldn't fail a kid if they had trouble with long term memory (there are things in place for kids with learning disabilities). If one doesn't have problem with long term memory - it is not an unreasonable to ask a child to memorize ten math facts in one week. If instruction is right - the learned fatcs will be reinforced all through the third grade and will stick for life.

Kids need to learn (as part of schooling process) how to memorize things, even if it not as exciting as the rest of the stuff they do in class, it will make them more powerful mathematician, and develops their brain pathways.

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#95 of 118 Old 08-14-2007, 08:36 PM
 
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They wouldn't fail a kid if they had trouble with long term memory (there are things in place for kids with learning disabilities). If one doesn't have problem with long term memory - it is not an unreasonable to ask a child to memorize ten math facts in one week. If instruction is right - the learned fatcs will be reinforced all through the third grade and will stick for life.

Kids need to learn (as part of schooling process) how to memorize things, even if it not as exciting as the rest of the stuff they do in class, it will make them more powerful mathematician, and develops their brain pathways.
People without learning disabilities can fail to memorize "math" facts or spelling words.

Hell I can remember things that happened in my day to day life all the way back to 13 months. But I will forget spelling words and multiplication tables right after the test.

DH is the opposite. He can't remember crap from his day to day life. But he can remember how to spell words, his multiplication tables and what not.

His memory works differently than mine. I don't think it is a learning disability to be different.
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#96 of 118 Old 08-14-2007, 08:56 PM
 
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My oldest son learned multiplication tables 1 through 12, starting in 2nd grade and going through 6th grade (mostly in 5th and 6th). I learned all of them in 4th grade, so different approach, same result.

I do think they are important, as are some of the mnemonic tricks for remembering them.

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#97 of 118 Old 08-14-2007, 09:09 PM
 
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People without learning disabilities can fail to memorize "math" facts or spelling words.
If you are unable to memorize ten facts in one week - I really do think you have learning disability.

I have worked in a school system for four years (as a paraprofessional, special education teacher, and a math teacher), and have never met anyone "unable" to remember math facts, unless they had serious documented problems with short or long term memory.

Spelling abides by different rules and has a great number of exceptions to remember (especially in English language heh). On the other hand, there is a finite number of math facts, and they don't change, nor do they have exceptions.

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#98 of 118 Old 08-14-2007, 09:10 PM
 
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Sorry, one more thing to add to my last post...
Only other reason, aside from LD, for someone not to know their math facts - is poor math program.

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#99 of 118 Old 08-14-2007, 10:11 PM
 
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If you are unable to memorize ten facts in one week - I really do think you have learning disability.
I am not unable to memorize ten facts in one week. I am unable to retain this information after the test. I am positive I am not alone.

How positive are you really that your students retain this information and just haven't found ways to work around it?
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#100 of 118 Old 08-14-2007, 10:52 PM
 
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I am not unable to memorize ten facts in one week. I am unable to retain this information after the test. I am positive I am not alone.

How positive are you really that your students retain this information and just haven't found ways to work around it?
I believe the fact that you don't remember math facts after the test is a result of poor math instruction.

I'm confident that kids I have worked with got it because of rapid recall factor, and because we worked on it for a year. Every morning we started out with 3 minutes of math facts, and I have seen drastic improvement from September to May (you have to do so many problems in a minute, and the number of problems kids were able to do went up drastically, in a timed situation there is no time for addition). Since we have done it for a year straight (every single day, except for holidays, and special occasions I guess), I'm fairly certain that it's not just "for a test" thing. It was graded only on a few occasions, I did it because I felt it would speed up their work processing and would allow for fewer mistakes (it was a shame that not one single kid earned 100% on the pretest that consisted of four basic operations in the begining of the year).

It is a heated debate in the district, because elementary schools adopted Everyday Math (which doesn't believe memorizing math facts), and kids come to us making mistakes in basic multiplication problems, so 6th grade took it upon themselves to remedy the situation, and as a whole grade we decided to spend first three minutes of every math lesson on math facts.

P.S. I don't think this is how it should be taught though, I believe by 6th grade it should come naturally.

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#101 of 118 Old 08-15-2007, 12:47 AM
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Can we now agree that most people who learned their tables retain them and that most people can learn them?
YES, can we please? Even by the terms of Tina's poll, we have a very clear "yes" to the question of whether "most people" remember their multiplication tables.
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#102 of 118 Old 08-15-2007, 12:55 AM
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I did not say most people in the freaking world.

I do not agree that most people who learned them retained the information. I will only give you that after about 16 hours of a poll 67.2% of the people on MDC that have voted on the poll retained it. That is still not most people in my opinion.

Tina, you repeatedly said "most people" without qualification. When you say "Most people do not retain that information," you mean most people in the freaking world.

As for the second issue, at this point it is completely illogical to assert what you're asserting. The fact of the matter is that "most," as others have explained, means "any quantity over fifty percent," including 50.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000001%. That is what the word "most" means.

I might say, "A banana is an apple in my opinion," or "An apple is a ferret in my opinion." Opinions without facts have no value. Your opinion about what constitutes "most" is just as contrary to fact as my assertion that an apple is a ferret.

Bottom line, your own poll has proven that your fundamental assertion about most people in the freaking world not retaining their multiplication tables is wrong. Based on the facts you have solicited and received, you'll have to admit that most people do retain them, or restrict your statements to, "Most people I know do not retain their multiplication tables" in the interests of accuracy and truth.
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#103 of 118 Old 08-15-2007, 02:01 AM
 
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There has been some talk about math in other cultures. Many, especially in the homeschooling community, are familiar with Asian style math, especially Singapore Primary Math and NEM. I recently picked up a sixth grade Russian text (English translation) and was blown away; it's even more rigorous than Singapore 6A/6B. This is still pre-algebra -- no significant deviation from typical US scope and sequence for Gr.6/pre-algebra -- and is a standard text (i.e. not one for gifted kids), but the expectations are so much higher, it's quite staggering. There are a few sample questions and the table of contents online at the publisher's site.

I'm bowing out of this now as we homeschool; however, I have to say that even if we didn't homeschool full-time, in the US, I'd still either supplement or afterschool math.
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#104 of 118 Old 08-15-2007, 02:06 AM
 
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[/B]
Tina, you repeatedly said "most people" without qualification. When you say "Most people do not retain that information," you mean most people in the freaking world.


Bottom line, your own poll has proven that your fundamental assertion about most people in the freaking world not retaining their multiplication tables is wrong. Based on the facts you have solicited and received, you'll have to admit that most people do retain them, or restrict your statements to, "Most people I know do not retain their multiplication tables" in the interests of accuracy and truth.
I beg to differ.

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My whole point is..many many people and the majority of the people I know do not retain this information. I never said it should not be taught. I said it is often not retained and in my experience most people do not retain it.
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My original point being, most kids I know are never able to memorize the times tables. Teaching them how math works is more important than making them sit there and memorize something they are going to forget as soon as they memorize it anyway.
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I am not saying people should not memorize the multiplication tables, what I am saying however is that in my experience, that information is not retained by most people.
There is plenty of qualification in my posts.

And it is still not an overwhelming majority.
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#105 of 118 Old 08-15-2007, 09:09 AM
 
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There is plenty of qualification in my posts.

And it is still not an overwhelming majority.
I don't think "most people I know" is a good qualification as far as valid research goes (I have conducted studies, and have done statistical analysis)... To me your statement simply means that most people you know have received poor math education.

There is a big difference in "being able to do math even without math facts", and "being able to do math well". I want my kids to be able to do math well, and not use a defense "well, I can solve it even without knowing math facts, so why do I need to learn them?".

I don't know how else to explain the fact that American math education is behind the rest of the world, insisting on the fact that fundamentals are not needed to do math, is not going to make it any better. OP was stating that no memorization was present in the classroom regarding math facts, and my reply to it is not "they'll forget it anyway", my reply to it "they need to know it, and it will make them better in math".

You know the expression "whether you believe you can, or that you can't, you are probably right"? Well, I believe that I CAN teach overwhelming majority of the kids to know their math facts, and I am certain that it will improve their ability to find better solutions to math problems.

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#106 of 118 Old 08-15-2007, 09:54 AM
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There is plenty of qualification in my posts.
And there are blanket statements such as this one:

Post #41: "Dude.. that is because I was only stating the fact that most people don't RETAIN THIS INFORMATION. No argument. A simple statement of fact."
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And it is still not an overwhelming majority.
Post #86: "67.2% of the people on MDC that have voted on the poll retained it. That is still not most people in my opinion."

You didn't say "overwhelming majority." Your contention was most. Anything over 50% is most. Secondly, 68% is beyond merely most. It is far beyond a slim majority, as another poster pointed out.

Bottom line, Tina, you were clearly incorrect in your assertion. Most people -- by a solid majority -- do indeed know their multiplication tables and have retained that information.
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#107 of 118 Old 08-15-2007, 01:00 PM
 
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And there are blanket statements such as this one:

Post #41: "Dude.. that is because I was only stating the fact that most people don't RETAIN THIS INFORMATION. No argument. A simple statement of fact."


Post #86: "67.2% of the people on MDC that have voted on the poll retained it. That is still not most people in my opinion."

You didn't say "overwhelming majority." Your contention was most. Anything over 50% is most. Secondly, 68% is beyond merely most. It is far beyond a slim majority, as another poster pointed out.

Bottom line, Tina, you were clearly incorrect in your assertion. Most people -- by a solid majority -- do indeed know their multiplication tables and have retained that information.
You believe what you want to believe. You are going to anyway. I have stated OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.. that most people that I know. do not retain this information. Excuse me if I left that out in one of however many other posts. It has been brought to your attention that it was said in at least three others through-out the thread.

You just want to nit pick... do so all you want.. I am done responding to you.

Oriole. I find it interesting that as the poll goes on and more people answer, the percentage remains the same. 68-69% - 30-31%. I think 30% is a very large percentage of people not having this information retained. In a classroom of 30 students... 9 would not retain this information.(and I figured that out without a calculator even!) Imagine the uproar of 9 students didn't learn to read!!

I do not believe that it is the poor teaching of math. And while some of it might be learning disabilities, not all of it is. The simple fact is, many people are not wired to memorize things of this sort.

I would be interested in seeing the results in say a week.

ETA: Oriole, my qualifications did not have anything to do with statistical analyst. I was simply pointing out that on several occasions I stated I was talking about people I know not everyone in the freaking world.
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#108 of 118 Old 08-15-2007, 02:48 PM
 
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Oriole. I find it interesting that as the poll goes on and more people answer, the percentage remains the same. 68-69% - 30-31%. I think 30% is a very large percentage of people not having this information retained.
OK, I was going to stay out, but that's just so blatantly wrongheaded I can't help myself: The poll, by your own admission, was not set up to show how many people who learned all their tables did not retain them, so you can't say 30% of respondents didn't retain the information. How many of the 30% didn't learn them all to begin with? Your posts, by repeatedly displaying a misunderstanding of some pretty basic mathematical concepts, are working against your position that a higher conceptual understanding is independent of knowing math facts -- which is not something I, or I think most here are arguing against anyway. There are plenty of math whizzes out there who can't do arithmetic, or find it too boring to learn until they've reached a level -- often when factoring equations -- at which they see little alternative. The point most posters seem to be making is that the, vast majority of children can, and should be expected learn their tables. I would further add that if we didn't allow calculators until 6th or 7th grade, a strong majority of children would retain them as well. As has been illustrated above, it need not be drudgery and worksheets.

BTW the inability to learn math facts is a form of discalculia and is considered to be a learning disability.
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#109 of 118 Old 08-15-2007, 05:11 PM
 
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ETA: Oriole, my qualifications did not have anything to do with statistical analyst. I was simply pointing out that on several occasions I stated I was talking about people I know not everyone in the freaking world.
I'm not sure what your qualifications are... Are you a teacher who has made an effort to teach math facts? Have you done a rigorous study on the ability of people to remember math facts? Have you traveled or studied math curriculums from other countries? (I happened to have done two out of three of those things, and you will see me very often in math related threads.. Heck, if it was up to me, I'd have a whole section just for math curriculums in MDC : )

"Qualifications" is a loaded word, and I guess I'm not understanding how you are using it... Speaking of people you know - does not make you qualified.

Just beacuse "most people I know are teachers" doesnt' mean that "most people are teachers". That would be a flawed logic to use.

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I do not believe that it is the poor teaching of math. And while some of it might be learning disabilities, not all of it is. The simple fact is, many people are not wired to memorize things of this sort.
If a person is limited to addition or a calculator to do a simple multiplication problem - that person have gone through a poor math program. If you are limited in one of the four basic functions - you have gone through a poor math curriculum.
Sometimes when we have nothing to compare to - we feel that that's what the truth is. I happen to have something to compare to - and that is a much more rigorous math curriculum than the one that is accepted here.

P.S. when I told my sister about this argument who is back in Europe - she said "I knew math was bad there, but THIS bad??? People dont't know their math facts???" Take it for what its worth, but when something it taught right and reinforced - people can learn it, and I am much more likely to believe that it is a fault of the math curriculum, than the fact that Americans have some strange memory problem that doesn't allow them to memorize math facts for life.

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#110 of 118 Old 08-15-2007, 05:53 PM
 
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"Qualifications" is a loaded word, and I guess I'm not understanding how you are using it... Speaking of people you know - does not make you qualified.
I am using it with this definition:


4.modification, limitation, or restriction: to endorse a plan without qualification.


This was context it was originally used when it was stated that I said most people with no qualifications.

I was LIMITING my statement to the people I knew or in my experience. The poster who brought it up insisted that I said everyone in the freaking world.

I hope that clarifies the use of that word.

So, people I have meet, in every day life, do not retain or were unable to memorize their multiplication tables.

And btw.. The poll is still consistently 31-68ish %.
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#111 of 118 Old 08-15-2007, 05:56 PM
 
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BTW the inability to learn math facts is a form of discalculia and is considered to be a learning disability.
I am not unable to learn it.. I am unable to retain it. And we were never allowed to use calculators in school period. Not even in high school algebra.
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#112 of 118 Old 08-15-2007, 07:09 PM
 
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And btw.. The poll is still consistently 31-68ish %.
I find it interesting that even those people who have admitted to voting NO still support my argument: they comment that they either never learned it, that they didn't have proper math instruction, or suspect having LD, or had to learn at least part of it as an adult.

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#113 of 118 Old 08-15-2007, 07:16 PM
 
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I am not unable to learn it.. I am unable to retain it. And we were never allowed to use calculators in school period. Not even in high school algebra.
If you are absolutely UNABLE to retain information - there is only one of three choices:

1.You have long term memory problem (which you claim is not the case)

2.You have not had enough practice (my guess)

3.You had no interest in learning something (another guess of mine)

Neither of those choices grants the fact that people just CAN't for any valid reason to learn math facts, or that the facts are unnecessary for becoming a better student.

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#114 of 118 Old 08-15-2007, 07:29 PM
 
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Neither of those choices grants the fact that people just CAN't for any valid reason to learn math facts, or that the facts are unnecessary for becoming a better student.
Sigh.

I have never said anything other than; Most people I know do not retain this information.

I never said people can't learn it.
I never said it was unnecessary.

I said, most people I know do not retain this information.
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#115 of 118 Old 08-15-2007, 07:47 PM
 
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.

I said, most people I know do not retain this information.
Well, I have not once argued against the fact that most people you know didn't retain that information...

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#116 of 118 Old 08-15-2007, 07:59 PM
 
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Well, I have not once argued against the fact that most people you know didn't retain that information...
Good.. cause that I all I ever said.
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#117 of 118 Old 08-15-2007, 08:09 PM
 
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Good.. cause that I all I ever said.
to the wonder that is mathematics!

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#118 of 118 Old 08-16-2007, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by NoHiddenFees View Post
OK, I was going to stay out, but that's just so blatantly wrongheaded I can't help myself: The poll, by your own admission, was not set up to show how many people who learned all their tables did not retain them, so you can't say 30% of respondents didn't retain the information. How many of the 30% didn't learn them all to begin with?
Thanks for saying this -- I was going to point it out, but you said it first and said it so much better than I could have.
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