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#91 of 165 Old 06-04-2008, 10:20 PM
 
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Definition of Sarcasm
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sarcasm[A] is stating the opposite of an intended meaning especially in order to sneeringly, slyly, jest or mock a person, situation or thing. It is strongly associated with irony, with some definitions classifying it as a type of verbal irony intended to insult or wound.

Laura - Mom to ds (10) and dd (7) "Time stands still best in moments that look suspiciously like ordinary life." Brian Andreas.

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#92 of 165 Old 06-04-2008, 10:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by MattBronsil View Post
Are you in your job to help them or are you in your job to help you?

I'm in it for the money, the glamor, and all the respect.

See, there it is again.
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#93 of 165 Old 06-05-2008, 12:58 AM
 
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Be sarcastic with your own kids and stay away from mine!!
You said it!

I'm always shocked that we expect these little kids, kinder, first, second, even older students to keep it together, show self control, and when they don't, the teachers, who are PAID to keep it together, lose it and become mocking, mean and even verbally abusive. As I once said to a previous principal at my children's school, "I reserve the right to verbally abuse my children myself, I do not waive that right to your teachers." I'm paid a fair amount of money to maintain professionalism during my working (i.e., school hours) day with children. I think it's fair to expect all people paid to work with children to do the same.
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#94 of 165 Old 06-05-2008, 01:00 AM
 
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I'm in it for the money, the glamor, and all the respect.

See, there it is again.
Except that we're grown-ups, and we have our own power and ability to appropriately understand your intent and escape from it as we choose. A five or six year old has no real power or control. Better to use it lovingly and model acceptance while thinking whatever sarcastic thought you want to in your mind.
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#95 of 165 Old 06-05-2008, 01:32 AM
 
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I do believe she should get fired. One of my friends is a sixth grade teacher, and she was asking a child one day which teachers he had. He mentioned that he liked all of his teachers except his first grade teacher, because she called him stupid. Yeah, that stuck with him for 5 years, and it will probably stick with him forever. I can't imagine how this kindergartener feels, even if he was a difficult child.
I had a really wretched 4th grade teacher who for the entire second half of the school year, stuck me and 2 other students in the back of the classroom and pretty much ignored us. We were not told about field trips, and the "end of the year awards" that she gave us were pretty mean spirited.

Thankfully she no longer teaches, hasn't for years, but that experience has stuck with me. That was 20 odd years ago and I still remember feeling like a discard. I wasn't disruptive, I simply didn't do my spelling homework on a regular basis.

I volunteer a lot up at my kids' school, and I've gotten to know most of the teachers very well. I volunteer both in and out of the classroom

Even when a student is really being disruptive, they don't belittle the kids. Typically a truly disruptive child gets sent to the office, and if necessary spends time with the principal and/or the school counselor, and there are kids I see in that office once a week.

If a student
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#96 of 165 Old 06-05-2008, 01:57 AM
 
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I'm in it for the money, the glamor, and all the respect.

See, there it is again.

It was one teacher to another giving you a reminder and pointing out that when you do things to make yourself feel better that harm the child, you're doing the wrong thing.

If a child does something that frustrates you, wait until ALL the children have left, the school is empty, and then vent about him to a coworker who can shed a little sense of humor into the situation.

Then be sure to tell the coworker what you really love about the child.

If a child is ALWAYS on your nerves, be sure to tell the child what you love about him or her. Do it daily and find new things every day. You'll be amazed at how differently you handle those situations and how their behavior on those things that drives you nuts changes.

I might be wrong, but I thought these things are just common instinct to teachers of this age. I know we all need reminders, but I always believed our #1 job is to respect the children.
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#97 of 165 Old 06-05-2008, 02:47 AM
 
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MattBronsil, you sound like a FABULOUS teacher. Wanna teach my kids?

Heffernhyphen, all I can do is shake my head ... wow, scary ....
Hate to be the one to break it to you, but teaching is not about you ....
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#98 of 165 Old 06-05-2008, 10:04 AM
 
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I wouldn't say, "You're ignorant." But I have said, "Are you thinking?! Was that a good idea?!" My words may be a bit nicer than hers, but my tone is much worse when I'm good and fired up.
If I found out a teacher said these words to my daughter, I'd pull DD out of that school so fast it would cause a time warp. That pair of questions is insulting.

I wouldn't call for a lawsuit, I don't know if I'd call for the teacher to be suspended or fired (just being honest, I'd have to see what else was going on), but I sure as *&! would be talking to the teacher and administration about why I removed my child from the school.

And in that conversation, I'd probably be a snarky and put the words right back at the teacher, since that teacher was obviously NOT thinking and her choice of words was NOT a good idea.

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I know, it's shitty, but it helps me.
And only you, certainly not the children.
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#99 of 165 Old 06-05-2008, 10:34 AM
 
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Heffern, you have no right to be sarcastic to other people's children. It is confusing for those that aren't exposed to it. You need to be out of small children's classrooms and into high elementary grade if that's your coping mechanism.

Acting like it's the first day? Like forgetting procedure or where something goes or forgetting a rule? You mean acting like a five year old?

I just pulled my son out of a school with 19 days left because of a teacher who sounds very similar to you, except she also had no inner censor and would say everything that came to her mind, wounding people left and right, adult and child under the guise of sacasm more often than not. She also has no place in a five year old's class room.

If you are so motivated by pay, get another job. They aren't products, they're little children. You scare me.
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#100 of 165 Old 06-05-2008, 10:46 AM
 
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I pulled my DS out of kindergarten in February because, among other reasons, his teacher was sarcastic and rude to the kids.

I know teachers are overworked and underpaid (and underappreciated). But they don't get to take it out on my kid.

DS1: 2/02 ROTFLMAO.gif DD: 9/04 blahblah.gif DS2: 9/07jog.gif and EDD: 11/13 belly.gif

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#101 of 165 Old 06-05-2008, 10:49 AM
 
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I would like to add that I didn't pull him out to home school him, I pulled him out and found a teacher that didn't resent the fact that she was a teacher and then the children as a result.
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#102 of 165 Old 06-05-2008, 11:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen View Post
For instance, if we've been in class for 10 months, doing the same procedure every stinking day, and a kid acts like it's the first day of school, I will extend my hand and introduce myself, "Hi, I'm Ms Heffernhyphen; I'll be your teacher this year."

I know, it's shitty, but it helps me.
I don't think that is shitty at all. I find it funny Your sarcasm would not be lost on my 5yr old, she'd laugh and get it

Decluttering 500/2010
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#103 of 165 Old 06-05-2008, 11:08 AM
 
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Definition of Sarcasm
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sarcasm[A] is stating the opposite of an intended meaning especially in order to sneeringly, slyly, jest or mock a person, situation or thing. It is strongly associated with irony, with some definitions classifying it as a type of verbal irony intended to insult or wound.
Not sure why Iam jumping in the fray-

Just because the dictionary says so, does not mean all sarcasm is meant to wound. Some sarcasm or maybe dry humour? is funny and not intended ot wound.

Decluttering 500/2010
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#104 of 165 Old 06-05-2008, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Not sure why I am jumping in the fray-
That's how I feel every time I jump into a thread about teachers. Why do I go there, when I ALWAYS end up feeling like I need a shower afterwards?

There is a big difference between the bitchy teacher who takes jabs at her kids all day, treating them like lesser life-forms just because they are short, and one who occasionally says something snarky just to let off some steam. I talk to kids just like I talk to adults: with respect, manners, and humor . . . although with adults I do tend to favor language popular among teamsters, but I usually make it all the way through the school year without letting that sneak out. In the continuum of venting techniques, I think it's pretty harmless . . . or at least forgivable.

BunnySlippers, thank you for cutting me some slack and realizing that I'm not the teacher on the tape, or the one in Florida who voted the student off the island, or the one you had in fourth grade who slapped your wrists with a ruler. :
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#105 of 165 Old 06-05-2008, 02:59 PM
 
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realizing that I'm not the teacher on the tape, or the one in Florida who voted the student off the island, or the one you had in fourth grade who slapped your wrists with a ruler. :
I realize that you are not any of those people. I also think that you may avoid becoming those people and burning out on a career you clearly value by listening to the other voices on this thread.

I'm reminded of students in high school who, after violating a classroom rule, would say "Can you cut me some slack?" to the teacher. The best teachers offered a way for the student to begin again *without* cutting that student "slack," rather helping them reach their potential.
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#106 of 165 Old 06-05-2008, 03:22 PM
 
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That's how I feel every time I jump into a thread about teachers. Why do I go there, when I ALWAYS end up feeling like I need a shower afterwards?

There is a big difference between the bitchy teacher who takes jabs at her kids all day, treating them like lesser life-forms just because they are short, and one who occasionally says something snarky just to let off some steam. I talk to kids just like I talk to adults: with respect, manners, and humor . . . although with adults I do tend to favor language popular among teamsters, but I usually make it all the way through the school year without letting that sneak out. In the continuum of venting techniques, I think it's pretty harmless . . . or at least forgivable.

BunnySlippers, thank you for cutting me some slack and realizing that I'm not the teacher on the tape, or the one in Florida who voted the student off the island, or the one you had in fourth grade who slapped your wrists with a ruler. :
Why not wait till you get home to "vent" instead of doing it infront of the children?

No you are not those teachers..... but you could be. How do you know something you said didn't really make a child feel stupid and inadequate? How would you feel if a mother came to you and told you you really hurt her child's feelings?
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#107 of 165 Old 06-05-2008, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Why not wait till you get home to "vent" instead of doing it infront of the children?
You're right, in a perfect world I would never, ever feel anger or frustration in my job . . . or at least I would be perfect and always handle it with grace and wisdom. But I'm not a robot or Mary Poppins. I'm human. Sometimes I've got a kid on my last raw nerve and I slip up. I would be embarrased to turn around and see a parent standing there, but I truly suspect that in most cases, the parent would be more upset by what they saw their child doing to upset me than by my upset reaction to it. The best parents don't think, "Why did you yell at my child?" But, "What did my child do to make you yell at him?"

And, when I do screw up and say something not very nice to a student, I usually apologize, sometimes in private, sometimes in front of the class. I use it as a teaching opportunity and let them see that when we say or do something we shouldn't have, we should admit our mistake and ask forgiveness.

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How would you feel if a mother came to you and told you you really hurt her child's feelings?
The other morning, one of my students arrived at school at the same moment I did. Her mother saw me approaching and turned in my direction. She said, "Wait till you hear what Madison said about you last night. She said she wants to live with you. I told her I'd be sad if she left, but she said I could come too."

But to answer your question: Yes, I'd be heartsick if I ever hurt a child's feelings. I try hard to do just the opposite all day.
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#108 of 165 Old 06-05-2008, 03:54 PM
 
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Really? So no paid professional is allowed to exhibit basic human flaws or weaknesses, or just professionals in education? We teachers have to be perfect, all day, every day? Wow. That sounds really hard. Good thing we get paid so well.
Basically, no. At work you keep your cool or you lose your job.

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#109 of 165 Old 06-05-2008, 04:23 PM
 
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The best parents don't think, "Why did you yell at my child?" But, "What did my child do to make you yell at him?"
No child can *make* you yell at him. Really.

Of course your students love you. It's one of the wonderful things about teaching the young. That's why it's important to find another way to handle your feelings of frustration.

Children deserve to be safe at school.
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#110 of 165 Old 06-05-2008, 04:59 PM
 
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[QUOTE=Heffernhyphen;11399442] The best parents don't think, "Why did you yell at my child?" But, "What did my child do to make you yell at him?"

QUOTE]

I would disagree.

The best parents do not automatically jump to conclusions.
The best parents (I am using your phrasing, but I do not like the concept of "best parents" ) look at what the child was doing, but also look at the teachers reaction. As many have said in this post, the behaviour of children does not excuse the behaviour of adults.

My job is to look after the best interest of my children.
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#111 of 165 Old 06-05-2008, 10:47 PM
 
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Basically, no. At work you keep your cool or you lose your job.
Yeah, I don't get it.

I don't yell at my patients, or speak to them derisively with sarcasm when they don't do as I want or say. If I did, complaints would be (rightfully) lodged against me, and I would be subject to review of my professional behavior. All of that aside, it simply goes against the very reason and purpose of my role in practicing medicine.

The only reason you haven't been professionally censured is that five year olds lack the power and knowlege to get your inappropriate behavior dealt with properly.

How would a tape recording of your comments go over with these parents and school board members, I wonder?
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#112 of 165 Old 06-05-2008, 11:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah, I don't get it.
Which is my original point precisely. You don't get it. To return to the original discussion, although vilifying me has become quite entertaining, most people don't, won't, can't get what that teacher was going through because we haven't been exactly where she was. You can't understand how a teacher could feel frustration and stress and annoyance to the point of saying something she might regret later. And that is where empathy is needed. Trying to imagine how someone else feels.

But to compare a doctor's professional demeanor to a teacher of young children is comparing apples and bowling balls. I find it hard to believe that one patient, no matter how irksome, could rival the stress output of 20 five-year-olds. Maybe if you could imagine your least favorite patient in your examine room with your for 8 hours a day, five days a week and then multiply it by 20?
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#113 of 165 Old 06-05-2008, 11:52 PM
 
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Maybe if you could imagine your least favorite patient in your examine room with your for 8 hours a day, five days a week and then multiply it by 20?
You need to not be teaching children, dear.

This is NOT normal. This is not how you are supposed to feel about your students.
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#114 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 12:10 AM
 
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Which is my original point precisely. You don't get it. To return to the original discussion, although vilifying me has become quite entertaining, most people don't, won't, can't get what that teacher was going through because we haven't been exactly where she was. You can't understand how a teacher could feel frustration and stress and annoyance to the point of saying something she might regret later. And that is where empathy is needed. Trying to imagine how someone else feels.

But to compare a doctor's professional demeanor to a teacher of young children is comparing apples and bowling balls. I find it hard to believe that one patient, no matter how irksome, could rival the stress output of 20 five-year-olds. Maybe if you could imagine your least favorite patient in your examine room with your for 8 hours a day, five days a week and then multiply it by 20?
I don't think you read what i asked earlier....

Why don't you teach older kids?
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#115 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 12:44 AM
 
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Heffernhyphen;11398606]" That's how I feel every time I jump into a thread about teachers. Why do I go there, when I ALWAYS end up feeling like I need a shower afterwards?

There is a big difference between the bitchy teacher who takes jabs at her kids all day, treating them like lesser life-forms just because they are short, and one who occasionally says something snarky just to let off some steam. I talk to kids just like I talk to adults: with respect, manners, and humor . . . although with adults I do tend to favor language popular among teamsters, but I usually make it all the way through the school year without letting that sneak out. In the continuum of venting techniques, I think it's pretty harmless . . . or at least forgivable."




I kinda think you're just saying these provocative things because you're feeling attacked and very defensive. I hope you don't truly believe the things you've been writing.

Teaching is a noble profession. I would think that a fellow teacher would understand more than anyone how something like this could happen but would also understand better than anyone why it is so terrible.
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#116 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 01:00 AM
 
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I honestly think it is unnatural and asking for trouble to put one person in one room for 8 hours with a bunch of needy little kids day after day. It makes no sense. I can only imagine what even the best of teachers have said to kids when they were at the end of their rope. Of course, I am hoping the best of teachersd ar eable to get the hell out of the classroom, or bite their tongues at the end of a long day or year. Even if they are kind enough to the children, that sort of pressure has to take it's toll. A teacher is on the whole day, trying to emotionally and physically care for more children at one time than is not close to biologically possible. Kids are on the whole day, trying to be 'good' trying to get things done etc.

I'm not even that great of a mother, kwim? I homeschool, but i still find ways to get breaks in a day. I know me and I know my limits. Most schools are so under -staffed and under-funded. Can a teacher even leave a room for a break easily? It's not like you can walk out on kids.

I admit, I didn't bother clicking the link as I can't stomach a person harming a child. I don't believe that any one adult should be alone with a classroom of busy children for the whole day. It's a recipe for diaster, imo. Kids are needy, people get tired. Nobody can take care of 30 kids alone without support, or easily.

You couldn't pay me enough.
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#117 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 01:13 AM
 
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You need to not be teaching children, dear.

This is NOT normal. This is not how you are supposed to feel about your students.
We wish. We are talking about people. People with their own issues, their own lives, in a room with 30- odd children (some very needy) all day long without a break.

I am not defending, but it is one reason I homeschool. Teachers are as human as anyone. Most public school teachers have a totally ridiculous job, imo.
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#118 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 02:54 AM
 
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My brother wrote a book that he gave to his siblings about his life. In it, he told of an experience I had never heard. Now, my brother may have been a bit hyper but I don't think he was bad (he was 7 years older than me and I idolized him). Anyway, he was around 12/13 I think. A teacher got angry at him, knocked him down and stomped on him. Our mother usually sided with us when someone was unkind to us but, even though my brother hightailed it home as fast as he could, the teacher beat him to the punch and called our mother. I don't know what lies he told her but when my brother told her what had happened she didn't react like he had thought. She acted as if she didn't even care - which was highly unusual for her. Needless to say he felt violated by his mother as well as the teacher in this case. (Good thing mom was wonderful in so many other ways).


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That's a good point. But ... would you like to be a small boy forced to go to school every day to a teacher who is cruel and verbally abusive to you and everybody assumes you're the liar or a bad person who brings it on yourself. There are lifelong consequences of this stuff. Many adults I know tell me stories about teachers they were forced to endure that make my hair stand on end. We're all human, but let's be realistic. There are psycho teachers out there that can that cause a lot of harm undeterred because children aren't always believed. And when somebody is rendered so powerless, singled out and essentially dehumanized like what was going on here, there's unfortunately a very human tendency for others to join in the exclusion.
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#119 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 05:59 AM
 
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But to compare a doctor's professional demeanor to a teacher of young children is comparing apples and bowling balls.
Really? Both professionals are required to treat their customers (for lack of better term) with dignity, not insult them or belittle them. Both professionals have customers who look to them for guidance and learning. The only difference I see here is that the teacher has more than one customer at a time. I know I'm simplifying here, but I don't see it as apples and bowling balls, more like apples and ferns.

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Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen View Post
To return to the original discussion, although vilifying me has become quite entertaining, most people don't, won't, can't get what that teacher was going through because we haven't been exactly where she was. You can't understand how a teacher could feel frustration and stress and annoyance to the point of saying something she might regret later. And that is where empathy is needed. Trying to imagine how someone else feels.
"Saying something"? The tape was over Three. Minutes. Long. This was not just a mere quick venting. This was a monologue, all directed at one little boy. Well, no, part of it was directed at the little boy's classmates in an effort to get them to effectively shun him. This teacher brought up events from earlier in the year and predictions on what would happen to him later in life.

No, I don't know what else had gone on that day. No, I don't know what else had gone on that year. It's still no excuse for three minute long insult-fest against a kindergartener. She doesn't need empathy, she needs anger management classes, stress management classes and probably a new line of work.
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#120 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 06:24 AM
 
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As a children's librarian, I could only begin to imagine the customer incident report I'd have to fill out, much less the interrogation from Upper management, union and peers I'd come under for an equivalent situation.

I don't think you realize, Heffer, how mild your situation currently is.

As for the the child in the original article, if he was such a problem, why wasn't he removed/ moved to another class or even special ed? From what this teacher says, she had encountered his behavior before and chose the wrong road for discipline. If I were the mom, I'd sure as hell sue the district.

And I don't care if my kinder understands your sarcasm, I'd be talking to the superintendent if the principal did not take me seriously. I can understand at the earliest acting that way with a middle schooler, but not a kindergartener. It is demeaning and rude.
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