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#121 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 06:27 AM
 
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I honestly think it is unnatural and asking for trouble to put one person in one room for 8 hours with a bunch of needy little kids day after day. It makes no sense. I can only imagine what even the best of teachers have said to kids when they were at the end of their rope. Of course, I am hoping the best of teachersd ar eable to get the hell out of the classroom, or bite their tongues at the end of a long day or year. Even if they are kind enough to the children, that sort of pressure has to take it's toll. A teacher is on the whole day, trying to emotionally and physically care for more children at one time than is not close to biologically possible. Kids are on the whole day, trying to be 'good' trying to get things done etc.

I'm not even that great of a mother, kwim? I homeschool, but i still find ways to get breaks in a day. I know me and I know my limits. Most schools are so under -staffed and under-funded. Can a teacher even leave a room for a break easily? It's not like you can walk out on kids.

I admit, I didn't bother clicking the link as I can't stomach a person harming a child. I don't believe that any one adult should be alone with a classroom of busy children for the whole day. It's a recipe for diaster, imo. Kids are needy, people get tired. Nobody can take care of 30 kids alone without support, or easily.

You couldn't pay me enough.
Actually it is "biologically possible" and people do it every day. AND they don't blow up at their children. I don't buy this "sometimes even good teachers go bad" bullshit. Of all the good teachers I've had in my life, I don't remember any of them saying anything remotely close to what that woman told that 5-year old. And mind you, one of the troublesome kids threw a desk at my 5th grade teacher and hit the dry-erase board behind her, missing her by about 3 inches. She didn't blow up at him and tell him he didn't deserve friends. She promptly stepped outside and called the school security, and the principal. When she returned she asked if everyone was alright and used it as an oportunity to explain what not to do when you're angry.

So no, it is possible to be in a room with that many kids and keep your sanity. Maybe not for you, and hey! That's why you're not a teacher! Certainly not for me... and that's why I'm not a teacher. And if it isn't for someone else but they find themselves in-front of a classroom of small children, it's time to look for another job.

I'm also really tired of this "they don't get paid enough" argument. Yeah, okay they don't. But when you went to college to be a teacher no one told you you were going to be a millionaire. You were fully aware of the low pay when you started.
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#122 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 06:39 AM
 
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i remember a teacher who threw chalk board erasers and flipped over desks. I remember another who had a bat that he would thump on you desk for attention. It was a means of control. I don't agree with it -- now or then.

To speak to today, yes teachers are underpaid. However, I do have problems with this comment:
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But when you went to college to be a teacher no one told you you were going to be a millionaire.
At the same time, who told them them could become a principal or administrative director one day? No that's not a million, but it's far more than my public librarian salary, much less than their teacher salary.

I can only speak for my state of CA, but there is this glamorous ideal that one could enter the noble art of teaching, change the world, and possible grab a title or two along the way.

Everyone needs to eat, I get that.I strive hard to leave my baggage at the door. Yet some kinder teacher feels its ok to treat kinder with a sarcasm attitude because she's having bad day? Not, that doesn't make you a bad teacher, but you do admit to an off hand sarcastic response. Not good.

To me, you are burnt out. When kids have worn you raw, it's time for a new challenge/ grade or time for something new. In the end, your path is up to you,
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#123 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 06:48 AM
 
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i remember a teacher who threw chalk board erasers and flipped over desks. I remember another who had a bat that he would thump on you desk for attention. It was a means of control. I don't agree with it -- now or then.

To speak to today, yes teachers are underpaid. However, I do have problems with this comment:

At the same time, who told them them could become a principal or administrative director one day? No that's not a million, but it's far more than my public librarian salary, much less than their teacher salary.
um what? Sorry, i don't understand. Can you explain?
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#124 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 06:53 AM
 
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What don't you understand? The personal story or personal sentiment?
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#125 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 07:18 AM
 
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What don't you understand? The personal story or personal sentiment?
Sorry i didn't understand this part:
"At the same time, who told them they could become a principal or administrative director one day? No that's not a million, but it's far more than my public librarian salary, much less than their teacher salary."

Are you implying that they become a teacher to eventually be a principal?
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#126 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 07:36 AM
 
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Are you implying that they become a teacher to eventually be a principal?
Can you clarify what you're asking here? Not to put words in anyone else's mouth, but it seems you're under the impression that perhaps you don't have to be a teacher in order to become a principal.

How do you think Principals start their job? They have to have teaching experience in order to know how to run a school. You don't just go to college and do a 'principal' degree. You have to be a teacher first, then do further study.
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#127 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 07:49 AM
 
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As I listened to the way the teatcher was speaking I was thinking about the cost of shame- what it does to a child and how this teacher must have been shamed and verbally abused herself.

I hope this child never has to hear words like these again. That he will heal. I wish for the teacher to get some sort of help, she will need that no matter what profession she chooses after this -
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#128 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 07:51 AM
 
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Can you clarify what you're asking here? Not to put words in anyone else's mouth, but it seems you're under the impression that perhaps you don't have to be a teacher in order to become a principal.

How do you think Principals start their job? They have to have teaching experience in order to know how to run a school. You don't just go to college and do a 'principal' degree. You have to be a teacher first, then do further study.
I'm not under any impression... i'm completely confused by this statement:

"At the same time, who told them they could become a principal or administrative director one day? No that's not a million, but it's far more than my public librarian salary, much less than their teacher salary."
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#129 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 07:56 AM
 
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What confuses you about the statement?
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#130 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 09:43 AM
 
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MattBronsil, you sound like a FABULOUS teacher. Wanna teach my kids?
Looking to move across the ocean to Taiwan anytime soon?
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#131 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 10:40 AM
 
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Actually it is "biologically possible" and people do it every day.
. .

It's biologically possible for one person to give birth 30 children at the same time. Is that like quadruplets? Quintuplets?

School is weird. It's manufactured. A bunch of little kids programmed to sit at desks all day with one human person, with no recess, no talking at lunch etc. ou're going to have problems. Ya think? lol

I know some fantastic teachers, but they also leave crappy schools for better ones (breaks, support, actual books, playgrounds that get used, just to name a few things) as fast as they can.

It's pretty much a system designed to fail. As it has.
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#132 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 11:13 AM
 
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Children have been learning from teachers in groups away from their parents since early Egyptian scribes, it's not a bizarre modern construct.
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#133 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 11:18 AM
 
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Children have been learning from teachers in groups away from their parents since early Egyptian scribes, it's not a bizarre modern construct.
And got beaten in the process as well. Just because we humans have been trying to force children to learn and conform to our needs in a school setting for 3 or 4 thousand years doesn't mean we're doing the right thing by them.
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#134 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 02:21 PM
 
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On one hand, I'm grateful that I don't have to send my kids to school to be taught by people like this. On the other hand, I'm sad that anyone's kids are being put through this, and I'm extremely miffed that I have to contribute to salaries for people to treat children like this.

And I guess I live in a weird area, because as poverty-stricken as NEPA is and as low as the cost of living is, teachers start out with a pretty high salary, especially for only needing a bachelor's degree. My H after ~10 years in his field of skilled labor is just approaching what a first year teacher makes.
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#135 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 04:10 PM
 
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It's biologically possible for one person to give birth 30 children at the same time. Is that like quadruplets? Quintuplets?

School is weird. It's manufactured. A bunch of little kids programmed to sit at desks all day with one human person, with no recess, no talking at lunch etc. ou're going to have problems. Ya think? lol

I know some fantastic teachers, but they also leave crappy schools for better ones (breaks, support, actual books, playgrounds that get used, just to name a few things) as fast as they can.

It's pretty much a system designed to fail. As it has.
^ No, it's biologically possible for someone to care for that many children. Not give birth to them.

... What nazi schools are you talking about, that don't have recess and no talking at lunch?? lol


... Am I to understand that some of you are under the impression that there just can possibly be a "bad teacher".... but rather a good teacher with a bad moment?? You don't think it's possible that no matter what the circumstances there are bad teachers out there and they're not few and far between?
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#136 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 05:53 PM
 
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I can't believe this thread is still going. It's become like a public pillory in the middle of town square.

It's one thing to bandy back and forth over issues or ideas, but whew. Is it really constructive to be coming after each other?

If there's one lesson running throughout all this, I'd say that it's probably a good and necessary thing to vent sometimes, but it's not a good thing to misuse the people around us, children or adults, to vent at.
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#137 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 08:44 PM
 
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It's biologically possible for one person to give birth 30 children at the same time. Is that like quadruplets? Quintuplets?
I don't know where that question came from, but I still think it is fun to imagine the husband standing next to the bed confidently saying, "breathe....breathe...." for 30 children and feeling like he accomplished something.

Quote:
School is weird. It's manufactured. A bunch of little kids programmed to sit at desks all day with one human person,
Are there other types of humans? ;-)

That's one thing I don't understand about regular education. Why do we do it that way?
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#138 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 10:38 PM
 
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Children have been learning from teachers in groups away from their parents since early Egyptian scribes, it's not a bizarre modern construct.
Not most children. Not most societies. Not in the US was it mandatory for all children until a few generations ago. I would say, in fact, that the version we have now is a "bizarre modern construct," which people don't generally regard as bizarre because they were indoctrinated into the system.

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#139 of 165 Old 06-06-2008, 11:30 PM
 
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[QUOTE=MattBronsil;11409316]I don't know where that question came from, but I still think it is fun to imagine the husband standing next to the bed confidently saying, "breathe....breathe...." for 30 children and feeling like he accomplished something. [QUOTE]


Lol That would be something, and I am hurting thinking about it. As to your question about why we do this to kids, I have to say that adult 'convenience' plays the major part.
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#140 of 165 Old 06-07-2008, 12:36 AM
 
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... What nazi schools are you talking about, that don't have recess and no talking at lunch?? lol
That's getting common around here, too.
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#141 of 165 Old 06-07-2008, 01:17 AM
 
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No talking at lunch seems to be common. I've seen it at all the schools I work in. It doesn't seem to be the case at my children's school yet, but they eat outside so the noise is probably less noticeable than in a cafeteria. But it makes me crazy to hear the adults shush the kids (if only they just shushed them. It's actually much uglier and more regrettable than that).
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#142 of 165 Old 06-07-2008, 01:45 AM
 
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I just can't help but think, what did the kid do to push the teacher to this point? There are always two sides, you know.
Not when he's 5 years old and she is in a position of power over him, there aren't.
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#143 of 165 Old 06-07-2008, 03:53 AM
 
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I wonder if I had this teacher! Seriously. When I was in maybe first or second grade, we came in from recess to color and when I went to get my colors out of my desk....GONE! Stolen! Meek little me didnt say anything, just did the best I could with the two colors I had left........

My teacher held my picture up for the whole class to see and said, "Class, isnt Angies picture UGLY? She only used two colors!"

and I promise you that meek, mild, people pleasing, non confrontational me never gave that teacher one drop of trouble, ever, not even then, I just bowed my head down and tried not to cry.

In my worst parenting moment, I never crossed into abuse! This woman did. Are all teachers like this? No. The very next year I had a beautiful, wonderful angel of a teacher who, when the other kids made fun of my lunch bad, said it was beautiful and asked the boy next to me, "isnt it?" and he said yes too! She hugged me and stroked my hair while I cried into my arms.

Being stressed doesnt give you an excuse to abuse anyone.

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#144 of 165 Old 06-07-2008, 04:14 AM
 
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I wonder if I had this teacher! Seriously. When I was in maybe first or second grade, we came in from recess to color and when I went to get my colors out of my desk....GONE! Stolen! Meek little me didnt say anything, just did the best I could with the two colors I had left........

My teacher held my picture up for the whole class to see and said, "Class, isnt Angies picture UGLY? She only used two colors!"

and I promise you that meek, mild, people pleasing, non confrontational me never gave that teacher one drop of trouble, ever, not even then, I just bowed my head down and tried not to cry.

In my worst parenting moment, I never crossed into abuse! This woman did. Are all teachers like this? No. The very next year I had a beautiful, wonderful angel of a teacher who, when the other kids made fun of my lunch bad, said it was beautiful and asked the boy next to me, "isnt it?" and he said yes too! She hugged me and stroked my hair while I cried into my arms.

Being stressed doesnt give you an excuse to abuse anyone.


I remember making a collage in art class in high school with a bunch of really sharp pieces all facing inward when I was feeling particularly powerless and attacked from all sides with nobody to help me. I remember my art teacher commenting how ugly and meaningless my piece was.

I thought 1) she totally missed the point and
2) aren't art teachers supposed to be sensitive?

Too many of the wrong people are teaching.

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#145 of 165 Old 06-07-2008, 06:01 PM
 
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And got beaten in the process as well. Just because we humans have been trying to force children to learn and conform to our needs in a school setting for 3 or 4 thousand years doesn't mean we're doing the right thing by them.
Are you suggesting everyone homeschool? What is your goal?
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#146 of 165 Old 06-07-2008, 06:38 PM
 
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No talking at lunch seems to be common. I've seen it at all the schools I work in.
I find this extremely disturbing. Taking away one's right to talk (aka. socialize) is detrimental to development. Silencing people is also the 1st "subtle" step during traumatic opression.
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#147 of 165 Old 06-07-2008, 11:40 PM
 
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I find this extremely disturbing. Taking away one's right to talk (aka. socialize) is detrimental to development. Silencing people is also the 1st "subtle" step during traumatic opression.
Agreed. It's awful.
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#148 of 165 Old 06-07-2008, 11:58 PM
 
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Are you suggesting everyone homeschool? What is your goal?
I have no 'goal'. I am simply speaking my thoughts, and my experinces.

Do with that what you will, or totally ignore me. And not to be snarly, but my experiences or opinions are not related to, nor are invested in, your particular life choices.
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#149 of 165 Old 06-08-2008, 03:38 PM
 
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Her ongoing dialogue with a class of kindergartners about this child is just disturbing, the parents have every right to be upset. :
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#150 of 165 Old 06-08-2008, 05:00 PM
 
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The no-talking at lunch idea is really disturbing. My child attended a waldorf school for years and it was FORBIDDEN to talk at lunch or snacktime. The kids literally sat arm to arm at their desks, but were told explicitly that they couldn't talk to one another. Recess was delayed for the class or sometimes just the offender, but this happened at least three times a week. Someone was always in trouble. I would sometimes see the class at lunch at it was quite creepy and unnaturally controlled to see all these young ones forbidden from interacting with each other. Lots of tension there.

In my child's present school there is no such restriction and the mood is happy and light.
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