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#1 of 165 Old 05-29-2008, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I just can't help but think, what did the kid do to push the teacher to this point? There are always two sides, you know.
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#2 of 165 Old 05-29-2008, 05:54 PM
 
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oh wow! i've not seen that before or heard about it! that's unbelievable!!

i was equally floored by some of the comments! one person actually comments how unfair it is that the teacher's rights were so violated by being secretly recorded & how awful that was!!!! she was so upset for the teacher!!!! WHAT????

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#3 of 165 Old 05-29-2008, 05:55 PM
 
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You ARE kidding I hope--this child was FIVE YEARS OLD.::
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#4 of 165 Old 05-29-2008, 06:25 PM
 
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Here is a few thoughts...

1. I teach. I had a kid who cried in a parent-teacher conference accusing the team being mean to him. It was heartbreaking... IF you were not a teacher who he talked as if you are trash to the day before, and the day before.. and the day before... no matter how much kindness and patience you showed him, it was not enough. There were days the kids literaly sighed with relief when he was removed from the classroom. We heard from his mom quite a bit. Even after he slammed another kid into a locker. It was sill us making up stories about the kid. So... I'm with "what's the other side of the story" camp.

2. The teacher obviously had said things she shouldn't have... Wrong things that I would never tell to another 5 y.o. YET, I have seen parents even here confessing "their crimes". As a parent, do you always say the right thing? Do you ever lose your temper? Are you sure that when faced with a difficult child you would always have patience to work through it?

3. Maybe the teacher IS awful and the children are lucky to be rid of her. Or maybe she is simply human and was at the end of her rope with a difficult child. Don't judge, and you will not be judged.

4. Would you want to be videotaped by your neighbor at your worst parenting moment and for the judge to make her devision on custody based on that?..

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#5 of 165 Old 05-29-2008, 06:50 PM
 
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talking to my child that way would never.ever be excusable. she is a trained teacher with a degree and chose her profession. this was not an isolated incident at all.... so imo, it is not permissive under any circumstances.

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#6 of 165 Old 05-29-2008, 08:07 PM
 
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[QUOTE=Oriole;11345750]Here is a few thoughts...

1. I teach. I had a kid who cried in a parent-teacher conference accusing the team being mean to him. It was heartbreaking... IF you were not a teacher who he talked as if you are trash to the day before, and the day before.. and the day before... no matter how much kindness and patience you showed him, it was not enough. There were days the kids literaly sighed with relief when he was removed from the classroom. We heard from his mom quite a bit. Even after he slammed another kid into a locker. It was sill us making up stories about the kid. So... I'm with "what's the other side of the story" camp.

It does not matter. You do not get to talk meanly to a child because you are the adult and a role model.

2. The teacher obviously had said things she shouldn't have... Wrong things that I would never tell to another 5 y.o. YET, I have seen parents even here confessing "their crimes". As a parent, do you always say the right thing? Do you ever lose your temper? Are you sure that when faced with a difficult child you would always have patience to work through it?

As a paid professional, you do not get to lose your temper this way. No, I have not lost my temper "this way". I have said things I regret, but I have not called names or singled out a child the way that teacher did. .

3. Maybe the teacher IS awful and the children are lucky to be rid of her. Or maybe she is simply human and was at the end of her rope with a difficult child. Don't judge, and you will not be judged.

I would never be able to trust the teacher again. As per judging - I guess that is up to God, but I would at the least remove my child from her class and would very likely ask for her dismissal

4. Would you want to be videotaped by your neighbor at your worst parenting moment and for the judge to make her devision on custody based on that?..

I think vidoetaping was probably the right move. I cannot see the teacher admitting to what she said, and kids do occasionally confuse things. It's a primary source.


I am sure the teacher has a "side" - maybe he is a diffiuclt child, but that in no way excuse the behaviour of the paid, professional adult.
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#7 of 165 Old 05-29-2008, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

As a paid professional, you do not get to lose your temper this way.
Really? So no paid professional is allowed to exhibit basic human flaws or weaknesses, or just professionals in education? We teachers have to be perfect, all day, every day? Wow. That sounds really hard. Good thing we get paid so well.
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#8 of 165 Old 05-29-2008, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Oriole View Post

Maybe the teacher IS awful and the children are lucky to be rid of her. Or maybe she is simply human and was at the end of her rope with a difficult child. Don't judge, and you will not be judged.

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#9 of 165 Old 05-29-2008, 09:14 PM
 
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oh my gosh - he's 5. FIVE. it doesn't matter what HE did, it's how SHE chose to respond to her kindergarten student. this was recorded because it was an ongoing incident that was red flagging his parents at home. i honestly do not believe this was a single incident where she merely lost it and unfortunately got caught on tape....this imo is one of many times and thank god it was finally put to an end. if this child was pushing her buttons so bad because he was satan's spawn or something - well, as a 13 year veteran teacher, she should have known how to handle it .....whether that be through working with the parents or the principal or a glass of wine at night...i don't know. -- but i do know that having an ongoing (not a few words that slipped out) but an intentional dialogue like this in front of a classroom of peers is NOT okay. EVER.

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#10 of 165 Old 05-29-2008, 09:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Oriole View Post
4. Would you want to be videotaped by your neighbor at your worst parenting moment and for the judge to make her devision on custody based on that?..
That's a good point. But ... would you like to be a small boy forced to go to school every day to a teacher who is cruel and verbally abusive to you and everybody assumes you're the liar or a bad person who brings it on yourself. There are lifelong consequences of this stuff. Many adults I know tell me stories about teachers they were forced to endure that make my hair stand on end. We're all human, but let's be realistic. There are psycho teachers out there that can that cause a lot of harm undeterred because children aren't always believed. And when somebody is rendered so powerless, singled out and essentially dehumanized like what was going on here, there's unfortunately a very human tendency for others to join in the exclusion.
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#11 of 165 Old 05-29-2008, 09:29 PM
 
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That is horrible! I can't imagine how I would feel if someone treated my child like that.

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#12 of 165 Old 05-29-2008, 09:50 PM
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I dont think this was a case of a "bad moment"; it sounds like it went on for while both on the recording and also the little boy didnt want to go to school.

It is horrible. I was a teacher....I had some doozies in my class and plenty of things I wish I had not done but this is......just awful.
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#13 of 165 Old 05-29-2008, 09:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen View Post
Really? So no paid professional is allowed to exhibit basic human flaws or weaknesses, or just professionals in education? We teachers have to be perfect, all day, every day? Wow. That sounds really hard. Good thing we get paid so well.

Did you read the article? I highlighted a few sentences....


"I've been more than nice to you all year long and you've been ignorant, selfish, self-absorbed, the whole thing! I'm done!" Woodward says to Gabriel on the tape.

Gabriel can be heard crying on the tape.

Edwards said that the worst part of the tape was when Woodward singled Gabriel out in front of the whole class.

"So you guys think, is that somebody you want to be with?" Woodward asks the class.

In unison, the other students reply, "Noooo."

"See, your friend doesn't want to be with you. I don't know what else to tell you. So you're not going to have friends because of your actions."


I do not think I am being harsh at all. I am suprised anyone is offering up justification for such behaviour. Quiter frankly, it sounds like verbal assault to me.....

And as per your crack on pay - it is irrelevant. I would not tolerate anyone talking to any child like that - whether they made minimum wage or were paid a million dollars a year.
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#14 of 165 Old 05-29-2008, 10:00 PM
 
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I'm not watching it and I'm angry at even reading "teachers are humans and cut them some slack." I have "____________" this much slack to cut a teacher where inappropriate hurtful things are concerned.

That teacher has no right. NONE. You people excusing her behavior are making me crosseyed.
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#15 of 165 Old 05-29-2008, 10:03 PM
 
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If you had a friend who spoke to her child like this, would you be concerned for the child?

Who is the adult here? I really don't care what the child did, he *did not* deserve that.

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#16 of 165 Old 05-29-2008, 10:09 PM
 
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Simply unacceptable behavior for a teacher.
It would be interesting to hear her side of the story. I really would like to know what this FIVE YEAR OLD BOY did to make this grown woman talk to him like that. She was the adult in the classroom ....
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#17 of 165 Old 05-29-2008, 10:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

And as per your crack on pay - it is irrelevant.

Yes, I did say it just as a wise crack, but you're wrong to think it's irrelevant. There is certainly a direct correlation between low pay and high stress. And if you don't think teachers exist on a steady diet of stress, you're just wrong.

Of course what the woman did was wrong. She is certainly mortified, as I would be caught in one of my less shining moments. But we can't know where she's coming from if we aren't her. You know, that stuff about walking a mile in her shoes . . . casting the first stone . . . all that hokey don't judge stuff. I'm a fan of it.
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#18 of 165 Old 05-29-2008, 10:18 PM
 
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I'll happily judge anyone who hurts my child, physically or emotionally.

If she's too stressed, she needs a student teacher to help her or she needs to freaking quit. There is no gray area here in early childhood education. This isn't about teens, these are five year olds.
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#19 of 165 Old 05-29-2008, 11:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen View Post
Yes, I did say it just as a wise crack, but you're wrong to think it's irrelevant. There is certainly a direct correlation between low pay and high stress. And if you don't think teachers exist on a steady diet of stress, you're just wrong.

Stress is not an excuse for her behaviour. Take yoga. Fight for more pay. Do what you need to do - but do not take it out on a young child. To maintain pay/stress is in any way relevant to her behaviour is wrong.

Of course what the woman did was wrong. She is certainly mortified, as I would be caught in one of my less shining moments. But we can't know where she's coming from if we aren't her. You know, that stuff about walking a mile in her shoes . . . casting the first stone . . . all that hokey don't judge stuff. I'm a fan of it.
Actually, as a adult and parent it is my job to judge - and say "this is not OK behaviour - and you will not do this to children".

As per not judging - if you are a teacher - aren't you a mandatory reporter??? If I were abusive - you may very well call CPS on me. Doesn't it go both ways? If I see a teacher being abusive, isn't it my job to report it - and try to stop it - not excuse it?

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#20 of 165 Old 05-29-2008, 11:33 PM
 
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oh my gosh - he's 5. FIVE. it doesn't matter what HE did, it's how SHE chose to respond to her kindergarten student. this was recorded because it was an ongoing incident that was red flagging his parents at home. i honestly do not believe this was a single incident where she merely lost it and unfortunately got caught on tape....this imo is one of many times and thank god it was finally put to an end. if this child was pushing her buttons so bad because he was satan's spawn or something - well, as a 13 year veteran teacher, she should have known how to handle it .....whether that be through working with the parents or the principal or a glass of wine at night...i don't know. -- but i do know that having an ongoing (not a few words that slipped out) but an intentional dialogue like this in front of a classroom of peers is NOT okay. EVER.
I could not agree more. I have been a special ed teacher for many years, and dealt with many kids with behavior problems. I could not ever imagine saying those things to one of my students, and I teach HS students. There is absolutely no excuse for her behavior that I can possibly think of. Obviously this was an ongoing problem, otherwise the student would not have been so distraught that the parents felt the need to record. Teachers are supposed to be trained in behavior management techniques, so she should have had some ideas on how to better deal with his behavior, whatever that was.

Not to mention this is a 5 year old child...I hope she is out of teaching forever.
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#21 of 165 Old 05-29-2008, 11:53 PM
 
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But we can't know where she's coming from if we aren't her. You know, that stuff about walking a mile in her shoes . . . casting the first stone . . . all that hokey don't judge stuff. I'm a fan of it.
i don't think we need to ostracize her from society and ruin her life by any means, but we really do need to judge this and not excuse it. my kids make me crazy and i've said things i later regretted - of course!!! but i also had enough sense to apologize, ask for forgiveness, & i actually felt really bad about it. it's not something i keep doing day after day with no remorse and no change in my behavior. i felt bad because it was wrong not because i got "caught". ykwim?

i worked as a social worker for several years before i was a SAHM, and regardless of my bad days mixed with really stupid people - i was never allowed to lose self control and minimize my clients emotionally(and they were adults). children really need an advocate. i am my child's advocate & i will stand up for them. if someone spoke to my child in that manner it would just break my heart for them. i would be devastated for them. i hope this teacher does grow from this, and i do not wish ill will on her. i just think she should have consequences.

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#22 of 165 Old 05-30-2008, 12:10 AM
 
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Just another thought, while it is isolated it does happen. Student last year accused another teacher is slamming him against the wall. This was after he was caught throwing things at moving cars. She never touched him and there were other adult witnesses. Just a week ago this same child accused another teacher of being mean and gabbing him. This child is manipulative and nasty and knows how to work the system at 9 years old. He is backed up by his mom as he ruins the careers of teachers he doesn't like.

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#23 of 165 Old 05-30-2008, 12:24 AM
 
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Didn't anyone find this part of the article a little more than creepy?
Quote:
Carol Mooney, a spokeswoman with the Indiana State Teachers Association, told the New Albany News and Tribune newspaper that Woodward is well liked by co-workers, parents and students and that she had trouble with Gabriel all year.

"What do you say to a kid who's rolling around, punching, biting, kicking? What can a teacher do?" Mooney said to the newspaper.
"What can a teacher do?" The spokeswoman for that Indiana State Teachers Association has to look at that incident and say "What can a teacher do?" I hope she was just cut off in her quote and actually gave good suggestions that the media left out, which is a very valid possibility and one I hope is right.
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#24 of 165 Old 05-30-2008, 12:28 AM
 
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I don't think it has anything to do with parenting or bad parenting moments. This is not the child's parent. She doesn't have the years of connection and closeness to balance out this interaction. She doesn't have years to make up for it.

Imagine another professional behaving this way toward a client:

A doctor screaming at a patient

A lawyer screaming at a client

A real estate agent screaming at a homeowner.....

I'll tell you right now the professional status and possibly the license of those professionals would be on the line.

Teachers are professionals. This teacher's behavior shouldn't be defended by other teachers who hold the profession in esteem.

A *5* year old whose parents felt they had to send to school with a tape recorder. Geez.
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#25 of 165 Old 05-30-2008, 12:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
Did you read the article? I highlighted a few sentences....


"I've been more than nice to you all year long and you've been ignorant, selfish, self-absorbed, the whole thing! I'm done!" Woodward says to Gabriel on the tape.

Gabriel can be heard crying on the tape.

Edwards said that the worst part of the tape was when Woodward singled Gabriel out in front of the whole class.

"So you guys think, is that somebody you want to be with?" Woodward asks the class.

In unison, the other students reply, "Noooo."

"See, your friend doesn't want to be with you. I don't know what else to tell you. So you're not going to have friends because of your actions."


I do not think I am being harsh at all. I am suprised anyone is offering up justification for such behaviour. Quiter frankly, it sounds like verbal assault to me.....
that's what got me. I have had some less than stellar moments, but asking the class to join in? WTF?

There is no way this woman is fit to work with small children. (And I consider myself to be pretty foul tempered at times!) I am just flabbergasted.

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#26 of 165 Old 05-30-2008, 12:31 AM
 
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When Sthanie was in kindergarten I went to pick her up early from school and the office told me I could just go to her class. When my ex-h and I got to the room, we pulled open the door aand found the teacher yelling at the class. She stopped the minute she saw us standing there and she looked quite embarassed. They were being disruptive and I had a long talk with Stephanie about her behavior. I also had a talk with the principal about the teacher. Even though the kids were being disruptive, I don't believe that the teacher should have been yelling at them. It wasn't that she was raising her voice to be heard over the class, she was yelling and there are better ways to deal with kids than that.
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#27 of 165 Old 05-30-2008, 12:34 AM
 
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Another sad issue here is this may be a very good teacher who did get pushed over the edge. Now...I'm not saying that to excuse her at all. I still say she should not have gotten pushed over the edge.

The truth is that more and more schools are environments where the lack of support is appalling. Schools are much different now than they were when the teacher started 13 years ago.

I'm not saying she was right in ANY way. What she did was terrible. I'm just posing the question - when are we going to start treating this problem by looking at the entire system teachers are in rather than ONLY blaming the teacher's actions?

Yes...the teacher is 100% at fault in this. At the same time, I'm looking at preventing this in the future and schools need to seriously change or we are going to see more of these things happen. Or worse, we WON'T see them happening.

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#28 of 165 Old 05-30-2008, 12:34 AM
 
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[quote=kathymuggle;11346578]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriole View Post
Here is a few thoughts...

1. I teach. I had a kid who cried in a parent-teacher conference accusing the team being mean to him. It was heartbreaking... IF you were not a teacher who he talked as if you are trash to the day before, and the day before.. and the day before... no matter how much kindness and patience you showed him, it was not enough. There were days the kids literaly sighed with relief when he was removed from the classroom. We heard from his mom quite a bit. Even after he slammed another kid into a locker. It was sill us making up stories about the kid. So... I'm with "what's the other side of the story" camp.

It does not matter. You do not get to talk meanly to a child because you are the adult and a role model.

2. The teacher obviously had said things she shouldn't have... Wrong things that I would never tell to another 5 y.o. YET, I have seen parents even here confessing "their crimes". As a parent, do you always say the right thing? Do you ever lose your temper? Are you sure that when faced with a difficult child you would always have patience to work through it?

As a paid professional, you do not get to lose your temper this way. No, I have not lost my temper "this way". I have said things I regret, but I have not called names or singled out a child the way that teacher did. .

3. Maybe the teacher IS awful and the children are lucky to be rid of her. Or maybe she is simply human and was at the end of her rope with a difficult child. Don't judge, and you will not be judged.

I would never be able to trust the teacher again. As per judging - I guess that is up to God, but I would at the least remove my child from her class and would very likely ask for her dismissal

4. Would you want to be videotaped by your neighbor at your worst parenting moment and for the judge to make her devision on custody based on that?..

I think vidoetaping was probably the right move. I cannot see the teacher admitting to what she said, and kids do occasionally confuse things. It's a primary source.


I am sure the teacher has a "side" - maybe he is a diffiuclt child, but that in no way excuse the behaviour of the paid, professional adult.
I think I see where you're coming from, as I have a RAD child who lies, triangulates, and tries to get me in the middle of imaginary disputes with people at school, only find out I check their story out first after a few embarrassing skirmishes. There are children who can drive an adult to distraction, then turn around and lie convincingly while looking like little angels. But not very many, and not this child. Nobody, even if they think they have been provoked, gets to talk to a child this way. Anger I understand, abuse I don't.

This woman not only berated this child on tape, she asked the other children to join in and they did on cue, as if it were a regular thing.

ugh.

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#29 of 165 Old 05-30-2008, 12:51 AM
 
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"What can a teacher do?" The spokeswoman for that Indiana State Teachers Association has to look at that incident and say "What can a teacher do?" I hope she was just cut off in her quote and actually gave good suggestions that the media left out, which is a very valid possibility and one I hope is right.
well, i would think first and foremost she should alert the principal, & i would certainly enlist the school counselor, as well as set up a family meeting. imo, behavior that invloves, biting, hittting, kicking, rolling around, punching, etc. should be a big red flag to a teacher that something is not right with this child. he obviously requires attention and resolution. his issues could vary from trouble at home to food allergies to having special needs & anything in between. so imo, the question of "what to do" is not a matrix here. but in the end, we are all in agreement of what not to do - that is for sure.

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#30 of 165 Old 05-30-2008, 12:55 AM
 
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There's absolutely no excuse. It's insane that some of you are defending these statements.

You don't destroy a child's self esteem and adversely effect everything that he is or will be as a person because you've had a rough day.

By that same line of thinking we should excuse police brutality, or any other abuse committed by a person in a position of power.

I don't talk to people that way when I'm having a bad day. I've never talked to my child that way. I never will. If I did speak to children that way, I should be disallowed from having a position working with children.
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