To ultrasound or not ultrasound? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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Old 09-23-2010, 02:32 AM
 
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We're also planning to get at least 2 ultrasounds this time around. I have a history of m/c (so want the reassurance of an early scan), and our last pregnancy was complicated by a velamentous cord. We had lots of extra follow-up (additional scans and weekly stress tests) to ensure that the baby was growing properly. Maybe this was overkill, but it was very reassuring. Also, if they had not known about the cord issue, and they had put any traction on the cord during the third stage, I could have been in VERY serious trouble. This is, in fact, the reason that my DH wants us to get OB care during the pregnancy but is comfortable with a MW for the birth.
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Old 10-04-2010, 06:25 PM
 
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As a note: doppler is also MUCH MORE powerful per minute than a plain ultrasound. I can't remember the exact number, but I want to say it's 30x as powerful? Don't quote me on that.

I wanted to clarify this because frankly, I get tired of seeing this misinformation constantly on these forums.

Colorflow and spectral doppler.. ie, visual doppler/ doppler ultrasound.. not handheld dopplers/ doptones are much more powerful then plain ultrasound.

Colorflow and spectral doppler are high frequency pulsed doppler using a transducer that is anywhere from 3-12Mhz, where handheld is a continuous wave at 2 or 3 mhz using a 9 volt battery

Yes, there is ultrasound, but no, the doppler your midwife uses is NOT more powerful then an ultrasound.. much less 20 or 30 x more powerful as Ive seen quoted on these boards repeatedly.
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Old 10-04-2010, 06:31 PM
 
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Mamachef, can you cite a source on that? I'm not saying you're wrong (because, as I said, I can't remember my sources) but I would love to read about it! I'm pretty sure I first read that within one of my midwifery texts, but to be honest I'm too lazy to go searching... however, you seem to be in the know - do you mind sharing?


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Originally Posted by MamaChef View Post
I wanted to clarify this because frankly, I get tired of seeing this misinformation constantly on these forums.

Colorflow and spectral doppler.. ie, visual doppler/ doppler ultrasound.. not handheld dopplers/ doptones are much more powerful then plain ultrasound.

Colorflow and spectral doppler are high frequency pulsed doppler using a transducer that is anywhere from 3-12Mhz, where handheld is a continuous wave at 2 or 3 mhz using a 9 volt battery

Yes, there is ultrasound, but no, the doppler your midwife uses is NOT more powerful then an ultrasound.. much less 20 or 30 x more powerful as Ive seen quoted on these boards repeatedly.

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Old 10-04-2010, 07:34 PM
 
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I'm curious as well. What I remember reading is not necessarily that the frequency is more powerful in a doppler; it's the fact that a handheld doppler is a continuous wave, where a visual ultrasound is a pulsed(?) wave. So even though you're getting a lower frequency, you're getting a lot MORE of it... if that makes sense. Anyone, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

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Old 10-04-2010, 09:22 PM
 
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I had 2 with my first but I was mainstream all the way back then. I had 1 with my second because I was told I had to if I wanted to avoid vag. exams in Romania. Sadly, that ended up making no difference to them and they did as many if not more vag. exam during labor which was horrible for me.

This time, I forgot why I didn't like ultrasounds and I looked at those articles that people put up and I am fully convinced I don't need to get an ultrasound unless something horrifying was happening or something. So, although I'm dying to see my baby and see if there's only one baby (more than likely but you never know) but I would rather protect my baby from harm than allow my curiosity to be more important. That's what I've personally decided.

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Old 10-04-2010, 11:05 PM
 
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I had a missed m/c before I had my son, and had thought next time I was pregnant I'd get an early scan, but realized I wouldn't relax until 12wks anyway, so I should just wait until then. So I planned on two (12 wk nuchal scan, and the standard 20wk), I ended up w/ 4 because

a) I had appendicitis at 20 wks (they used u/s to make sure my intense abdominal pain wasn't pregnancy-related, but further used the u/s to try and see if it indeed was appendicitis, I ended up getting an MRI since the u/s wasn't clear enough, and it was, I got it out before it burst, thank god, since if it had, there is a 20% fetal loss rate.
b) The last one was because I went so late (they did a 41wk scan to make sure there was enough amniotic fluid)

I really trust my ob/gyn, who is as midwife-y as one could get (I knew I'd like her when I saw she had tibetan prayer flags hanging in her office) she treks to Nepal yearly to offer medical services to women there every November. She thinks there is no reason not to feel safe w/ an u/s. I've done my own reading as well, I can see the points people offer, but if I had refused that (or the MRI) my son would be dead, and perhaps me as well. I can see the arguments for not getting a 'routine' scan if everything is going fine, I guess, and its true that I am not comfortable getting a vaginal u/s.

I do think I'd want the option to terminate the pregnancy if we found something that was non-compatible w/ life (if the 12wk scan indicates further testing for that) Having lost a babe at 12wks, and having carried a babe to term, I know I do not want to lose one after a full term pregnancy if I can opt to end it earlier. I know that's probably not a popular opinion on here but I'd like that option.

So this time I am also planning on two, the 12wk, and the 18-20wk, and I know at least I can't get appendicitis again, and hopefully I don't go super late either

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Old 10-04-2010, 11:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littleteapot View Post
Mamachef, can you cite a source on that? I'm not saying you're wrong (because, as I said, I can't remember my sources) but I would love to read about it! I'm pretty sure I first read that within one of my midwifery texts, but to be honest I'm too lazy to go searching... however, you seem to be in the know - do you mind sharing?

I'll do some digging when I get the chance, all my midwifery texts have been put up save varneys, williams and anne frye... but we had a serious debate on it at Seattle Midwifery when I attended and I just remember how annoyed a couple of the instructors were that this information was circulated so fear mongeringly in the NBC.

I would not by any stretch of imagination consider this a source but it's all I could find quick...
http://www.fetaldopplerfacts.org/fac...und-safety.php

but it does explain a bit about the difference in the power of the transducers. That site also explains about continuous vs pulsed.. Pulsed doppler is a higher frequency, so it might not be continuous, but it is more powerful and more focused. http://www.babycentre.co.uk/pregnanc...lersafeexpert/

If you think about it logically, you are talking about something that works on a 9 volt battery, vs something that is plugged into a wall.

I will say that during our study group research outside of perhaps Gloria Lemay or some of Anne Frye's stuff, which no offense, but we chose to take with a grain of salt, we werent able to find any scientific studies of the 30x or 20x more powerful number and all of us had heard it over and over.

ETA
Did a couple more searches and here is a good one.
http://www.naturalchildbirth.org/nat...ventions27.htm

[Vol 2 Issue 9 March 3, 2000]:

Do most midwives regularly make use of the Doptone? Also, shouldn't each
woman be made fully aware that the Doptone is ultrasonic? Even though the
exposure periods are usually brief, I heard that 1 min. of Doptone is much
stronger--equal to 30 min of the other full-image type ultrasound. Is this
true?
Anon.
====

[Vol 2 Issue 10 March 10, 2000]:

I work for Nicolet Vascular (formerly Imex Medical). Following are excerpts
from a letter written to another person with the same concerns.
-Diane Rugh
..........
In addition, I would like to point out that the FDA limit for power
intensity emitted by a continuous wave ultrasound for fetal use is 0.094
watts per square centimeter. The FDA power intensity limit for pulsed wave
ultrasound for fetal use is 190 watts per square centimeter. The power
emitted by a Doppler can be 2,000 times less than an imager! Imex 3 MHz
probes emit 0.009 watts per square centimeter, a factor of ten times less
than the FDA limit.


Reprinted from Midwifery Today E-News (Vol 2 Issue 10 March 10, 2000)
To subscribe to the E-News write: [email protected]
For all other matters contact Midwifery Today:
PO Box 2672-940, Eugene OR 97402
541-344-7438, [email protected], Midwifery Today

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Old 10-04-2010, 11:48 PM
 
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I would certainly hope that no one assumes to know better than a woman's OBGYN what is best for her pregnancy.

I have not found one study, not even a retroactive study, that can link ultrasounds with negative human outcomes.

And most of us know a person/are a person wherein an US dx an issue with the fetus wherein interventions could be put into place to improve the chance of a positive outcome, be it as simple as bedrest or delivering at a hospital with a level III NICU.

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Old 10-05-2010, 12:25 AM
 
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Thanks Mamachef, that was very informative! I stand corrected.


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I would certainly hope that no one assumes to know better than a woman's OBGYN what is best for her pregnancy.
That must be why we have a 32% cesarean rate (and rising) along with the absolute worst maternal and newborn outcomes (and care) of any industrialized country. It must be because OBGYNs are always right and know what's best for all women... right?

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Old 10-05-2010, 12:38 AM
 
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I would certainly hope that no one assumes to know better than a woman's OBGYN what is best for her pregnancy.

I have not found one study, not even a retroactive study, that can link ultrasounds with negative human outcomes.

And most of us know a person/are a person wherein an US dx an issue with the fetus wherein interventions could be put into place to improve the chance of a positive outcome, be it as simple as bedrest or delivering at a hospital with a level III NICU.
i posted earlier in this thread a link with negative outcomes from u/s.

I have gone head to head with an OBGYN before over ACOG recommendations that state ultrasound is NOT right for every pregnant woman and is not necessary in every pregnancy. This particular OBGYN then refused to see me as a client because I refused an ultrasound stating that I would then be considered high risk. Keep in mind here, this was for no reason other than the very fact that I was pregnant. There were no issues and i was simply interviewing her for my pregnancy. IMO, that OBGYN was putting her own desires above what was recommended and not allowing for individuality. She specifically told me that ALL of her clients did exactly what she said or else they were not her clients. Obviously, we did not work together and she stormed out of the office on me.

Therefore, I CAN SAY, sometimes a mother does know best over the OBGYN. Like all Doc's, occasionally they lose sight of the fact that they are not Gods and they are not capable of demanding people to follow them like drones.

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Old 10-05-2010, 12:49 AM
 
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I would certainly hope that no one assumes to know better than a woman's OBGYN what is best for her pregnancy.

And most of us know a person/are a person wherein an US dx an issue with the fetus wherein interventions could be put into place to improve the chance of a positive outcome, be it as simple as bedrest or delivering at a hospital with a level III NICU.
Are you serious? You think that a doctor trained in surgery (NOT natural pregnancy and childbirth) knows what's best for your body? Not YOU?

And I bet if you looked around a little more, you would find that everyone also knows someone (whether they realize this or not) who had unnecessary interventions because of an u/s.

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Old 10-05-2010, 01:04 AM
 
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I'm most interested in the studies that show that ultrasound does not improve fetal outcomes. The Radius Trial is a good read for that info. There is another trial that I can't find called the Helsinki trial that shows that ultrasound does improve fetal outcomes but it seems only if termination is an option.

From that I get that if termination is an option (no judgement) an ultrasound can reduce your chances of infant morbidity or mortality. If not, your chances are not improved. And, actually the Radius Trial seems to imply that the outcomes are diminished.

I'm sorry! I just realized this was the May DDC. I must have clicked the wrong one. Happy pregnancies, ya'll.

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Old 10-05-2010, 01:43 AM
 
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Thanks Mamachef, that was very informative! I stand corrected.

NP.. I think sometimes people latch on to these things that are only partially correct to prove their point so it gets repeated and repeated and mantra-cised. The problem comes with Doppler Ultrasound vs. Doppler auscillation devices. People lump them both together.

I think the other thing to note is that since this was written in 2000, U/S can be up to 8x stronger now in the cases of some of the 3 or 4 d ultrasounds. Alot of mainstreap folks roll their eyes at that because we tell them crap about how dopplers are 30x stronger then U/S.. so why would they think 3 or 4 d were really as bad as some say.

So, moderation is always best for any type of U/S, but it's time we started accurately portraying the risks that we know instead of the scare tactics. Or else we are no better then the docs that do the same on the other side.

Education is key.

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I would certainly hope that no one assumes to know better than a woman's OBGYN what is best for her pregnancy.
This is a hard one. I do expect the woman, in most cases, to know what is best for her and her baby. Especially if she is educated and takes all sides of the equation into account. OBGYNs sometimes make bad calls.. so do midwives and cardiologists.. ad infinium.

I think the reality is that alot of women have lost touch with their body, fertility and birth and we are willing to take the knowledge of others without question sometimes instead of giving ourselves the credit we deserve as life bearers, nurturers, healers.. So, my caveat is that while OB/GYNs are informational "experts", they dont know me like I know me. They dont know my baby like I do. We should be partners in deciding what is "best" for any given individual pregnancy.
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Old 10-05-2010, 02:24 AM
 
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Oddly related link that was passed onto me today: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...al_videos.html
"FDA warns against fetal 'keepsake' images, heartbeat monitors"

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Old 10-05-2010, 03:11 AM
 
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Oddly related link that was passed onto me today: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...al_videos.html
"FDA warns against fetal 'keepsake' images, heartbeat monitors"
In the case of doppler, you can try this for yourself. It was one of my midwife's labs.. stick a waterproof doppler probe in a beaker of water. Turn it on .. keep turning it on when it goes off or the batteries run out.. do it for an hour or longer. Check the temp of the water. Stick a piece of meat in there if you want to simulate tissue. There wont be the slightest temp change over a control beaker of water/ meat sitting in the same room. Guaranteed.

I was going to type this earlier but didnt have the research and didnt want to look it up.. LOL. Yes, the 3d/4d and doppler us can heat tissues. But just to help give the flip side of this. No study that Im aware of has showed a rise in temp over 1 degree and this was over a long period of exposure. This same type of temp rise can happen when a mother takes a hot bath. So, grain of salt... and more studies needed. I know, I know, temp change from a bath, and due to a ultrasound wave are possibly different on a cellular level. But the studies arent conclusive and until the are, caution should be used.
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Old 10-05-2010, 03:15 AM
 
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Once, when I was a little girl, I really wanted to find out how long it took a pill to break down in your stomach. So I took a glass of water and put it on my shelf, then grabbed one of my mother's gel-tab medications (with her permission) and put it in. Days went by and nothing seemed to happen to it. It looked a little shriveled, but it certainly wasn't dissolving. On the third or fourth day I asked my mother what I'd done wrong. She said that water in a glass is not a replacement for the structure of fluids in your body... and you can never run an experiment with one and expect the outcomes to be similar in another, there are far too many variables (like exposure to room air and becoming stale, being contained in skin, circulation, viscosity...).

And, Mamachef, your water analogy reminds me of the lesson I learned that day.

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Old 10-05-2010, 03:25 AM
 
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Well, I betcha if you had put an acid in there to dissolve the enteric coating you woulda had alot better luck. Our stomach uses acids to dissolve foods.

Water isnt amniotic fluid, but it's 99.999% of it

You are correct that you cant absolutely replicate body conditions without a body.. But even studies with bodies have never shown a temp rise with a doppler.


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Once, when I was a little girl, I really wanted to find out how long it took a pill to break down in your stomach. So I took a glass of water and put it on my shelf, then grabbed one of my mother's gel-tab medications (with her permission) and put it in. Days went by and nothing seemed to happen to it. It looked a little shriveled, but it certainly wasn't dissolving. On the third or fourth day I asked my mother what I'd done wrong. She said that water in a glass is not a replacement for the structure of fluids in your body... and you can never run an experiment with one and expect the outcomes to be similar in another, there are far too many variables (like exposure to room air and becoming stale, being contained in skin, circulation, viscosity...).

And, Mamachef, your water analogy reminds me of the lesson I learned that day.
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Old 10-05-2010, 08:12 AM
 
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Thanks Mamachef, that was very informative! I stand corrected.




That must be why we have a 32% cesarean rate (and rising) along with the absolute worst maternal and newborn outcomes (and care) of any industrialized country. It must be because OBGYNs are always right and know what's best for all women... right?
I would certainly hope that you, as a person over the internet, would never assume you know better about a woman than what an OBGYN knows, is what I mean.

It is very scary that you might assume you know what's best as someone who has never met another her, seen her, examined her and taken her history.

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Old 10-05-2010, 08:15 AM
 
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This is a hard one. I do expect the woman, in most cases, to know what is best for her and her baby. Especially if she is educated and takes all sides of the equation into account. OBGYNs sometimes make bad calls.. so do midwives and cardiologists.. ad infinium.

I think the reality is that alot of women have lost touch with their body, fertility and birth and we are willing to take the knowledge of others without question sometimes instead of giving ourselves the credit we deserve as life bearers, nurturers, healers.. So, my caveat is that while OB/GYNs are informational "experts", they dont know me like I know me. They dont know my baby like I do. We should be partners in deciding what is "best" for any given individual pregnancy.

I was speaking specifically to people who act as if they are experts over the internet and question the efficacy of multiple US when a woman has already explained that she has had multiple complications with previous pregnancies.

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Old 10-05-2010, 03:50 PM
 
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I was speaking specifically to people who act as if they are experts over the internet and question the efficacy of multiple US when a woman has already explained that she has had multiple complications with previous pregnancies.
Oh no,
I totally understand. I was more trying to bridge the gap between the people who were freaking out at the audacity to suggest an OB/GYN knows anything better after their umpteen years of school and hundreds of pregnant ladies and births then someone who has read alot of Ina May and has the power of google.

Ultimately, I wish women on these boards would look at the medical profession as partners and tools to use to help get the best possible outcomes for mother and baby instead of in such a combative way.
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Old 10-05-2010, 03:58 PM
 
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Ultimately, I wish women on these boards would look at the medical profession as partners and tools to use to help get the best possible outcomes for mother and baby instead of in such a combative way.
Maybe some of those women have had REALLY bad decisions made for them by their care providers because they trusted their doctors knowledge/education/experience over their own. And many of those women ended up with traumatic births, even damage to themselves and their babies. So please don't just assume that all of the hippy moms here on MDC just read a book and checked google and assumed they know more than the medical profession as a whole.

And for the record, the above post specified trusting "OB/GYNs" as care providers, not the medical profession as a whole (which I would hope includes midwives.) OB/GYNs are trained in surgery, NOT natural, low-risk pregnancy and childbirth. They might be very knowledgeable about how to prevent/fix risks and problems and how to apply interventions, but most women do not need those things, and having them suggested or performed actually makes the process more dangerous (for a low-risk pregnancy.)

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Old 10-05-2010, 04:28 PM
 
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Maybe some of those women have had REALLY bad decisions made for them by their care providers because they trusted their doctors knowledge/education/experience over their own. And many of those women ended up with traumatic births, even damage to themselves and their babies. So please don't just assume that all of the hippy moms here on MDC just read a book and checked google and assumed they know more than the medical profession as a whole.

And for the record, the above post specified trusting "OB/GYNs" as care providers, not the medical profession as a whole (which I would hope includes midwives.) OB/GYNs are trained in surgery, NOT natural, low-risk pregnancy and childbirth. They might be very knowledgeable about how to prevent/fix risks and problems and how to apply interventions, but most women do not need those things, and having them suggested or performed actually makes the process more dangerous (for a low-risk pregnancy.)


I think it's irresponsible in general to blindly trust ANYONE....be it a chiropractor, acupuncturist, OBGYN, Midwife, Medical Doctor, etc.

Just because a professional with years and years of experience gives us often times their opinion (based on THEIR education, professors, school books, training, etc), does not mean that that single opinion is necessarily "correct" or medically valid. You should take their information into consideration when making decisions, especially about pregnancy and childbirth in this situation, however, you can get several different opinions from several different professionals.....and YOU as the MOTHER have to decide which is most correct/ the best fit to you in your situation. Not all professionals agree.

I, for one, decided to go with a CNM with my first birth 4 years ago. I had a birth plan, and while MOST of my decisions were followed respectively, many were also dismissed as though they were not important (i.e., the midwife told me the cord stopped pulsing so she cut it after like 2 minutes - there is NO way it was done pulsing and done giving my baby's blood to my baby!).

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Old 10-05-2010, 04:29 PM
 
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And for the record, the above post specified trusting "OB/GYNs" as care providers, not the medical profession as a whole (which I would hope includes midwives.) OB/GYNs are trained in surgery, NOT natural, low-risk pregnancy and childbirth. They might be very knowledgeable about how to prevent/fix risks and problems and how to apply interventions, but most women do not need those things, and having them suggested or performed actually makes the process more dangerous (for a low-risk pregnancy.)

Double

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Old 10-05-2010, 04:32 PM
 
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Maybe some of those women have had REALLY bad decisions made for them by their care providers because they trusted their doctors knowledge/education/experience over their own. And many of those women ended up with traumatic births, even damage to themselves and their babies.
yes, I would be one of those. My first birth/section. And WHY I became an educated, homebirthing momma to my following two children and hopefully will only ever again have an OBGYN or birth in a hospital if there is true medical necessity to do so.

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Old 10-05-2010, 04:56 PM
 
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Maybe some of those women have had REALLY bad decisions made for them by their care providers because they trusted their doctors knowledge/education/experience over their own.
And nowhere do I say that women should trust doctors over their own experience. I said that women had stopped giving themselves the credit we deserved in knowing what was best for us. I said that women should take back their power.

In that process, they should be mindful that those Doctors do know a bit more then we probably do about when pregnancy diverges from low risk/ normal. So, no.. we dont just act like little obedient good girls, letting the Docs have full say.. but it makes me want to bash my head into walls when I see women in later DDCs or Im Pregnant talking about how their doc is over reacting about pitting edema, or how there really wasnt "alot" of protein in their urine, or how a blood pressure of 140/90 is perfectly normal and fantastic because they read on Ronnie Falco's archive it was OK. Or scaring the crap out of women by telling them that a simple doppler exposes their baby to 30X more U/S then imaging U/S.. or asking a mom why she is having another ultrasound, or cant have a VBAC or why she is listening to what he Dr is saying about xyz.

So, what do we do with normal/ low risk pregnancies to stop birth trauma, to stop interventions and surgeries?

We stay at home to have our babies or we pick hospital or birth center care providers that are trained in low risk pregnancy.

If that isnt an option because of money or location...
You go into your OB with the best possible attitude of partnership and you help educate them in natural birth. But what you dont go in there looking for a fight, acting like a know it all and expect anything less then the same treatment in return. So, when "enlightened" birth folk needle women about why they are doing xyz, dont they know that it isnt safe/needed/yaddayadda they are doing no service to that mother. Now, when they present studies that a woman can print out and take to their doctor, or well thought out concerns or questions.. that is helpful. When we treat women like they have power, then they will use it. When we berate them on why they arent using their power, they feel even more helpless, alone and marginalized.

Ive watched so many doula clients get the full meal deal doing that in hospitals and it just isnt nessecary to have such a combative and negative idea regarding your care provider if it happens to be an OB.

Barbara Herrara wrote a good post kind of about this
http://navelgazingmidwife.squarespac...al-ticket.html


Anyway,
I dont label myself, but I *am* on MDC, so some would think I'm a hippy. Ive put a decade towards become a homebirth midwife. I believe in low risk birth. I just dont believe this attitude of OBs being bad that pervades alot of the NCB community does any favors to birthing mothers. It sets most women up for a double bind, and that is not a psychologically stable thing. That hurts women.
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Old 10-05-2010, 05:22 PM
 
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I'm not sure I remember reading anywhere on this thread where anyone was OB bashing.

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I think it's irresponsible in general to blindly trust ANYONE....be it a chiropractor, acupuncturist, OBGYN, Midwife, Medical Doctor, etc.

Just because a professional with years and years of experience gives us often times their opinion (based on THEIR education, professors, school books, training, etc), does not mean that that single opinion is necessarily "correct" or medically valid. You should take their information into consideration when making decisions, especially about pregnancy and childbirth in this situation, however, you can get several different opinions from several different professionals.....and YOU as the MOTHER have to decide which is most correct/ the best fit to you in your situation. Not all professionals agree.

I, for one, decided to go with a CNM with my first birth 4 years ago. I had a birth plan, and while MOST of my decisions were followed respectively, many were also dismissed as though they were not important (i.e., the midwife told me the cord stopped pulsing so she cut it after like 2 minutes - there is NO way it was done pulsing and done giving my baby's blood to my baby!).
This was really my point, and I also had a bad MIDWIFE experience with my first birth. So again, I am not blindly judging OB's here. The problem is handing over complete decision making to your doctor.

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Ultimately, I wish women on these boards would look at the medical profession as partners and tools to use to help get the best possible outcomes for mother and baby instead of in such a combative way.
But to come back to this part... that really would be ideal. But I would say that a good percentage of the medical profession doesn't view their patients as partners either. Which makes it hard as a patient to assert yourself when you don't necessarily agree with something that they suggest.

Also, many care providers are working, and making decisions, under hospital policies and insurance regulations... not necessarily what even THEY think is best for you and your birth. I think that's where things need to change. Insurance companies shouldn't be allowed to decide what is necessary/unnecessary for a patient, and hospitals shouldn't have to put in every possible CYA policy they can just to avoid a lawsuit.

anyway.... going way OT here. Back to the OP- just because your highly educated medical professional says "it's perfectly safe to have an ultrasound" doesn't make it necessarily true. There are definitely times and situations where ultrasounds are necessary. But that is not the case in every pregnancy, so it falls back to the patient to decide what is right for her own body and peace of mind.

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Old 10-05-2010, 05:28 PM
 
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anyway.... going way OT here. Back to the OP- just because your highly educated medical professional says "it's perfectly safe to have an ultrasound" doesn't make it necessarily true. There are definitely times and situations where ultrasounds are necessary. But that is not the case in every pregnancy, so it falls back to the patient to decide what is right for her own body and peace of mind.
Quoted for truth. I'd like to think we all understand this is the point of this thread, and all conversations within regardless of the little bits we're arguing over... a huge portion of the ladies at MDC have a good amount of self awareness not to be "Scared to death" by reading something without doing their own research and self-advocacy. Mothering has always been about that, and that's what they stand for: rather than blindly listening to what you're told - by anyone.
And to be honest, what I'm hearing most from this thread (and others like it) is not as much "listen to me! I have more education!" but more, "Make sure you do your own research".

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Old 10-05-2010, 05:45 PM
 
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I think my ob/gyn is awesome, and trained in both surgery and low-risk pregnancy. I am a scientist, so I appreciate her intense education, even if it might not completely apply to my case (if I end up w/ a low-risk pregnancy again) it doesn't mean she is going to try and turn me into a case I'm not. I found her extremely helpful when discussing all the different kind of options that I have if/when things go wrong, but always hoping that nothing goes wrong.

At my hospital they were great, and let me labor for three days (I went in tuesday night, and delivered thursday night) and always gave me options, didn't push anything on me. I opted for pitocin the last day, but it was my choice. I ended up birthing naturally w/ the help of some really great nurses and my ob/gyn (who happened to come on call at that time!) They are very proud of their low cesarean rate (2% I think?) and try to keep it that way. I trust her, and that's why when she tells me two u/s are no big deal, I believe her, and having done my own research, I choose to not have vaginal ones or 3d ones and keep it minimal. And the u/s to see if I had appendicitis did save me from a burst one, no way was I going to refuse that one.

Just to put in a bit of ob/gyn praise in there really, how could she not be awesome if she goes to Nepal every year to help women deliver/etc ? with probably hardly standard medical equipment. She rocks.

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Old 10-05-2010, 05:54 PM
 
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They are very proud of their low cesarean rate (2% I think?) and try to keep it that way.
Not to break into your lovefest (she sounds like an awesome doctor!) but as an ICAN co-leader I'm very curious where the 2% comes from: is this her private practice, or a hospital? Either way, I've never heard of it (and I'm sure we'd hear something) and I'd really want to back that up. If it exists, it's important for other women to know (and the WHO, who recommends a 10% cesarean rate)! Even the homebirth midwives here do not have a 2% rate. Generally it sits around 10%, and when it slips lower people start getting quite upset!

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Old 10-05-2010, 11:13 PM
 
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Not to break into your lovefest (she sounds like an awesome doctor!) but as an ICAN co-leader I'm very curious where the 2% comes from: is this her private practice, or a hospital? Either way, I've never heard of it (and I'm sure we'd hear something) and I'd really want to back that up. If it exists, it's important for other women to know (and the WHO, who recommends a 10% cesarean rate)! Even the homebirth midwives here do not have a 2% rate. Generally it sits around 10%, and when it slips lower people start getting quite upset!
ah you are right, its 24%, (lost a digit!) lower than the national average I guess, but still higher than the WHO recommends. And that's the whole hospital, I'm guessing that includes planned cesareans, so it seems pretty low to me still.

My point is, while birth can be a low-risk low-intervention thing, its best not to completely forget either that childbirth used to be a leading cause of death for women. So while this country (compared to other developed countries) might not have reached the right balance of prevention/intervention, I think its best to try and reach that balance w/ being educated and prepared, rather than vilifying the ob/gyn/hospital/etc community, I guess. As a previous poster said working with them, I suppose, not rejecting everything outright. Finding a professional you trust and can work with is key, however.

Perhaps because I am a scientist I appreciate the statistics and the risks. It reminds me of the recent issue regarding mammograms - they decided the cost didn't justify how many they found in routine ones for women 40-50. Statistically, it might make sense, but the few women who had breast cancer spotted w/ that mammogram definitely spoke out - they would have caught it later, and possibly died or had a harder battle. So the few folks where the routine u/s catches something important are going to think its a fine idea. So it makes sense to learn the risks, learn the pros/cons of these choices. Ill likely get a mammogram at 40 if I can, and get a routine u/s at 20 weeks.

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