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#31 of 44 Old 03-14-2011, 03:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by littleteapot View Post

But the word "Elective" has a very specific meaning, and it is for cesareans where a choice was present.



Since when? This is one of my pet peeves about cesareans. "Elective" is used to code any c-section that isn't an out and out emergency, even when there's medical need. This has been seen many, many times. My third one was only done because my OB threatened to withdraw from my case if I didn't go in (and how i wish I'd let him, but that's just one more in a long list of regrets). It was supposedly necessary (due to having two prior cesareans, and an "overdue" - GAK! - baby). It was still considered "elective".

 

There's always a choice, theoretically. A woman could be in immediate danger of both herself and her baby dying and still refuse surgery.


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#32 of 44 Old 03-14-2011, 03:05 PM
 
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I hate the term "natural cesarean" with every fiber of my being. There are no words to describe how strong my reaction is to hearing this term. That said, my last c-section had some elements of this, and it was less traumatic than any of the previous four. I don't consider it to have been "prettied up". It was simply less traumatic. I have no desire whatsoever to have the drape lowered to see the baby emerging, though. Yuck.

 

There are lots of emergent and/or medically advisable cesareans that aren't true emergencies, and where the time could be taken to make it a less brutal experience for the mom. I'm all in faovur of that.


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#33 of 44 Old 03-14-2011, 04:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post

I hate the term "natural cesarean" with every fiber of my being.


True, it's a ridiculous term.  "Mitigative" or something like that might be a better descriptor...something to recognize that efforts are being made to reduce the negative impact a c-section has on all kinds of natural processes.

 

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#34 of 44 Old 03-14-2011, 04:06 PM
 
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There's a big difference, too, between an "emergent" section (we have a medical and urgent reason to do surgery), and a "crash" section (decision to incision in less than 2 minutes).  There's a fair bit of flexibility in those emergent cases, but when we say "emergency", we tend to think of the crash situation.

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#35 of 44 Old 03-14-2011, 04:37 PM
 
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So wouldn't you want to improve those 8-10 women's experience....or would you rather just punish them for having to have a c-section even though they had no other choice.  Just to prove a point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Condem those women who have no other choice but to chose a surgical birth...just because our country and other's are screwed up.

 

I am carrying twins...if both are breech I may end up with a c-section...Where I live no midwives will do a home birth for twins...and no OB will do a double breech deliver...I was lucky to find an OB willing to do a vaginal birth if the second baby was breech.  You have to play the hand that has been dealt you...I got blessed with twins so I will do what I need to do to bring them into this world safely.

 


 

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If you're standing in a room full of 100 women who all had "necessary" cesareans, chances are only about 8-10 needed them. This is the sad truth about the cesarean epidemic.

 


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#36 of 44 Old 03-15-2011, 12:25 AM
 
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I want to repeat that I never said that skin to skin contact and all that wonderful stuff was somehow bad, in fact that would be awesome if it could be done more often (which is what I said originally as well). Reducing trauma for both mother and baby is amazing, let's do more of that. ... but this won't be possible in emergencies, which was my point. This is a technique designed to cater to a market of 99% elective, non-emergency, not necessary cesareans. I'm not looking to "punish women to prove a point" (seriously??!), I'd be the last person in the room saying, "No I think the mom actually SHOULDN'T touch her baby for the next 10 hours. That would be best for everyone... evil laugh!". What I'm talking about is on a much larger scale of simply not making elective, dangerous, life threatening surgery glamorous. Please note the key word "elective" in this. Remember, as I said, I am a mom who had a cesarean. Having more time and contact (read: ANY time or contact) with my son while he was still alive would have literally made the difference in the severity and depth of my grief to this day, but that is an entirely different world than what they're talking about up there.

For whatever dumb reason, they decided at that hospital that I didn't have that option. Was it true? Heck no. It was simply bad policy: their policy was to never, ever, ever deliver a breech vaginally. Was it based on facts and life saving research? Nope. Does that matter? Unfortunately not. By law at that time, a labouring woman was "not of their right mind" and they could overrule my decisions, my choices, and my rights to body integrity with a sweep of the hand. Which brings me to my next point...

There isn't "always a choice"...  in theory or in practice. I didn't have one. I was forced against my will. Lots of women are. Sometimes it's not as obvious as my case is/was, but being forced by way of lies, manipulation, coercion, blackmail, threat of legal action, threat of CPS or lack of support all count as losing your choice. Before I had my experience I also thought it was as easy as simply saying "no", and then I was knocked unconscious while begging for a vaginal birth and realized it's not always so black and white.  :( Check out some of the stories coming out of Florida, they're ATROCIOUS!! Women jailed and their other children taken away by CPS because they refused an unnecessary cesarean when faced with threats and lies. It's horrific.

 

And no, other poster whose name I've forgotten who asked if I missed their post, I didn't - I just think you've misunderstood what "emergency" means in the context that I'm using it. And in this context it means you don't have the luxury of taking 15+ extra minutes, therefore these kinds of "natural cesareans" or "woman centered cesareans" (you're not the only one who bristles at that term) would be a life threatening waste of precious, precious moments.

 

Also, and I'm not trying to be a prat, but simply CYAing:

 

"Elective Cesarean" :

[1], "Caesarean delivery on maternal request (CDMR), is medically unnecessary caesarean section, where the conduct of a childbirth via a caesarean section (CS, or c-section) is requested by the pregnant patient."  (emphasis mine)

[2], "...After all, the word "elective" simply means there is no medical justification"  (emphasis mine)

This is the primary definition for the term, which is the context in which I was using it.

 


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#37 of 44 Old 03-15-2011, 11:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littleteapot View Post


There isn't "always a choice"...  in theory or in practice. I didn't have one. I was forced against my will. Lots of women are. Sometimes it's not as obvious as my case is/was, but being forced by way of lies, manipulation, coercion, blackmail, threat of legal action, threat of CPS or lack of support all count as losing your choice. Before I had my experience I also thought it was as easy as simply saying "no", and then I was knocked unconscious while begging for a vaginal birth and realized it's not always so black and white.  :( Check out some of the stories coming out of Florida, they're ATROCIOUS!! Women jailed and their other children taken away by CPS because they refused an unnecessary cesarean when faced with threats and lies. It's horrific.

 

I'm the one who said there's always a choice, theoretically. I said "theoretically" quite deliberately, as I was knocked out for my first cesarean while I was refusing consent. When I commented on the choice issue, I was more commenting on the complete lack of meaning behind the term "elective" where c-sections are concerned. It doesn't mean it was chosen. It means it wasn't an emergency. It shouldn't mean that. The way they use the term "elective" makes me furious. But, they do use it that way, and it has nothing to do with choice.

 


Also, and I'm not trying to be a prat, but simply CYAing:

 

"Elective Cesarean" :

[1], "Caesarean delivery on maternal request (CDMR), is medically unnecessary caesarean section, where the conduct of a childbirth via a caesarean section (CS, or c-section) is requested by the pregnant patient."  (emphasis mine)

[2], "...After all, the word "elective" simply means there is no medical justification"  (emphasis mine)

This is the primary definition for the term, which is the context in which I was using it.

 

That might be the primary definition, but that's not how it's used in most circumstances. I've had three "elective" c-sections and every one of them was done for medical indicators (supposedly). Where did you get those definitions? They're very interesting, because that's what elective should mean, imo...but it's not what it means in practice.



 


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#38 of 44 Old 03-15-2011, 11:22 AM
 
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I agree "elective" doesn't mean it was the Mother's choice..

Both local hosptial's here have VBAC bans so you either choose your elective C-section or you drive almost 2hrs away. It's quite the "choice" that is offered, you get to have your hands tied to birth locally while practically being threatened with stories of you uterus rupturing.


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#39 of 44 Old 03-18-2011, 10:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Cutie Patootie View Post

I think this is incredible and was really moved by the film...until the end when the doctor said something about changing the way elective c-sections are done.  I'm thoroughly against elective c-sections, but for mothers who have no other choice but c/s, this is so amazing.


I think that many c/s moms that are more "main-stream" (because lets face it, none of us here are mainstream) feel like they don't have a choice when it comes to having a 2nd, 3rd etc C/S. So while they are elective, the mom feels like they don't have an option. I know in IA its hard to find an OB who will perform a VBAC, which makes me so sad, but those moms are still classified as "elective" kwim?

 

I cried while watching this, what a beautiful way for c/s moms to experience childbirth. 

 

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#40 of 44 Old 03-18-2011, 10:45 AM
 
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I've always been told that TRUE birth emergencies that require a c/s the mom is knocked out. Many moms are told that they need to have an "emergency section" and it can be anywhere from 30-60 minutes before she is rolled into the OR for surgery. I believe, and I could be wrong. that is what imalittleteapot is talking about. A true emergency mom gets knocked out, non-emergent mom is kept awake even if it is a "necessary" c/s
 

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uum did you completely miss my post about the fact that emergency sections are done like this in my state?  By two OB's who believe this is what is BEST for mom & baby, not for the frills.  And if this isn't about proving which c-sections are necessary, why are you going ahead and trying to disprove the c-section that I mentioned?  I don't really care about the strange attitude you have towards all of this but please just stop saying this will not be an option for emergency c-sections because it's not true, it's not a matter of your opinion.
 



 



 

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#41 of 44 Old 03-18-2011, 11:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lil_stinkyfeet View Post



I agree "elective" doesn't mean it was the Mother's choice..

Both local hosptial's here have VBAC bans so you either choose your elective C-section or you drive almost 2hrs away. It's quite the "choice" that is offered, you get to have your hands tied to birth locally while practically being threatened with stories of you uterus rupturing.



So true.  I have absolutely no one who will support a VBA3C in IL.  It would be much longer than a two hour drive to find anyone who would deliver--don't even know where.  I'm 99% sure I'm heading toward another C/S.  Given the history of the reasons for my past C/S (all planned homebirths, 2 with more than 24 hrs of labor before transfer), I'm not comfortable with an unassisted birth.  I wouldn't call my upcoming C/S "elective."  I have no realistic choice.

 

I don't know why we're beating each other up over semantics here.  The way I see it is, when possible it would be great to have a C/S like the one in the video versus the way they're typically done. Personally having a "natural c/s" (stupid terminology) still would not entice me to choose a C/S.  Most people "naturally" minded would still fight like heck to have a vaginal birth.

 


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#42 of 44 Old 03-18-2011, 11:41 AM
 
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T-dunahoo, for a "crash" section, mom is often knocked out because general anesthesia is faster to administer.  If a situation proceeds to crash status on a mother who has an epidural already in place, it may be possible to crank the epidural to a sufficient level for surgery, or use spinal anesthesia (which, technically, is anesthesia in a different layer of the spine). 

 

A crash section is a really scary situation.  It means that a patient is at imminent risk of dying.  It's possible for a situation to be a real emergency and still to not be quite that bad.
 

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Originally Posted by Tdunahoo View Post

I've always been told that TRUE birth emergencies that require a c/s the mom is knocked out. Many moms are told that they need to have an "emergency section" and it can be anywhere from 30-60 minutes before she is rolled into the OR for surgery. I believe, and I could be wrong. that is what imalittleteapot is talking about. A true emergency mom gets knocked out, non-emergent mom is kept awake even if it is a "necessary" c/s
 



 



 

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#43 of 44 Old 04-04-2011, 09:30 PM
 
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I had to sign an "elective" c-section form at my hospital. I looked at my OB-GYN as said if it's elective there's another option right... Not if you want to deliver here or with me. So I had to sign the elective form even though I had no other option. And there weren't any other options anywhere in a few hour drive that I could find. My last c-section I tried to make more natural but it's the first time our hospital had tried anything like it. But this video went even further. I might try to get my OB to watch it. It would be great if I can do more of these things this next time. (I wish it weren't true but this will be my fourth c-section. Baby #1 was breech, baby#2 I should have found a midwife but I didn't know better, baby#3 I wanted to try to VBAC but no midwife would touch me and baby was breech and low amniotic fluid, and this one again no one anywhere around would let me VBAC and I'm not comfortable doing it on my own. Not at all what I would have chosen but it is what it is. So all I can do is do the best I can given the circumstances. And advocating for myself does improve things and helps to personalize the birth. With my first two I didn't even think I could write a birth plan with a c-section but it was my last one that I decided I could have some control over how things were done and they actually listened to many of my requests.


 

 

 

 

 


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#44 of 44 Old 04-07-2011, 06:58 AM
 
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I just want to point out that any surgery that is not a matter of life and death is classified as elective.  


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