Vit K: injection or oral does? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 43 Old 06-09-2011, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi Mamas,

 

I'm wondering what all of you have decided to do about the Vit K prophylactic issue? I've said no to the injection because it just doesn't feel right (the poke as well as that quantity of Vit K when there must be some reason babes come in with so little) but am up for doing oral supplementation over the first weeks. I've read that you can either give it to babe OR that mom can take 1 mg a day for a certain length of time. Me taking it makes most sense to me because it seems gradual and more organic... What are your experiences/choices/research findings???

 

Thanks!

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#2 of 43 Old 06-09-2011, 09:56 AM
 
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Subbing to this thread as I'm really interested to see people's responses. Our midwife just discussed this with us and I'm hesistant to do it at all. I feel like I don't know enough about the potential benefits/risks/side effects to make an educated decision yet.

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#3 of 43 Old 06-09-2011, 10:05 AM
 
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I planned on doing no Vit K shot with my last baby (my first "crunchy" baby) and supplementing myself.  Then he got stuck and ended up badly bruised.  His whole head looked like a blueberry.  So I ended up telling the nurses to give him the shot.  They asked me several times to make sure I was in the right state of mind (lol) and then gave it to him.


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#4 of 43 Old 06-09-2011, 10:37 AM
 
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I didn't do it with first 3 babies but did it with next 2, not the shot- the oral stuff midwives use. I see it arrived (oral vitamin K) in my birth kit. I feel it's not necessary but they push it (for legal reasons with professional midwives???)...........this is the stuff that arrived. http://www.preciousarrows.com/Oral_Vitamin_K_p/44000.htm

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#5 of 43 Old 06-09-2011, 01:04 PM
 
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I did it with my first because it was legally mandated in hospitals in the state I gave birth in. I didn't do it with my second. I'm not planning to do it with this baby. My midwife does not routinely carry it. If I were to transfer to the hospital I plan to discuss it with the staff and find out their stance on refusal. If they tend to call CPS I won't fight it, because honestly I have bigger things to worry about if I do end up transferring. I think it cases of birth trauma, the use of it is warranted but I'm not anticipating it.


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#6 of 43 Old 06-09-2011, 04:17 PM
 
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I'm curious too. I only hear the reasons TO do it so I'm trying to be more educated about the reasons NOT to do it. Anyone know some good info???

My midwife doesn't carry oral Vit K so I'd have to get it somewhere if I wanted that.

Jenica- Wife to R & mama to C 8/27/09, my little blonde bombshell and D 7/23/11, whom we love so much we gave him an extra chromosome      cd.gifwinner.jpgfemalesling.GIF
 

 

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#7 of 43 Old 06-09-2011, 04:48 PM
 
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We were not going to give is to DD, but she appeared to have a big bruise on the back of her head after birth so we decided to do the oral dose (my midwife carries it).  It actually turned out that the mark that looked like a bruise was a red birth mark.  I think I will see if this babe appears to have any bruising after birth and decide then.  I feel that overall it probably is not necessary because babies are born that way most likely for a reason (I don't have any research though)


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Originally Posted by mamahen2coop View Post

I'm curious too. I only hear the reasons TO do it so I'm trying to be more educated about the reasons NOT to do it. Anyone know some good info???

My midwife doesn't carry oral Vit K so I'd have to get it somewhere if I wanted that.


Vit K shot info

 


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#9 of 43 Old 06-10-2011, 11:30 AM
 
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I'm not doing it.  Didn't do it with DS & my midwives don't feel it's necessary.  Maybe it's necessary in a typical medical birth where Pitocin causes violent contractions that crush the baby?  IMO If we needed Vit K at birth, babies would make it before leaving the womb.

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#10 of 43 Old 06-10-2011, 11:39 AM
 
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I think I may just end up using the oral dose myself and spare the baby the oral stuff. I agree that most babies are fine without it (unless as article pointed out there were other issues). I eat lots of leafy greens and other K rich foods too.

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#11 of 43 Old 06-10-2011, 11:41 AM
 
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I am doing what's the standard here in Austria: three oral doses over the first 4 weeks. I am doing it because of the brain bleed my son died from, even though that was much later and not at all related to the Vit K. I just do not want to miss anything.


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#12 of 43 Old 06-10-2011, 12:01 PM
 
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Anybody know what the proper/suggested dosage is for baby (oral Vit K)? I just ordered some, and it was so expensive that we just opted for the smallest amount, which is .5 ounces. Will that be enough? For me to take as a supplement, or for baby? 

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#13 of 43 Old 06-10-2011, 02:16 PM
 
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Make sure you're eating lots of good fats if you're going to rely on eating leafy greens for Vit K since it's a fat soluble vitamin.  thumb.gif


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#14 of 43 Old 06-11-2011, 06:39 AM
 
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I have not done vit. K with any of my children (all born with midwives in birth centers or at home), but I've said every time that I would if there was a good reason to give it.  And from what my midwives have said - all of them along the way - the only real reason you need to give it is if there is some trauma or bruising during the birth.  Otherwise, it's really not necessary.  Since we've had no trauma or bruising during any of our births, we've never given it.  But I would do the shot if it was needed.  


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#15 of 43 Old 06-11-2011, 01:53 PM
 
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Gismobabe: are the oral doses for the baby or yourself? Do you happen to know the amounts of the 3 doses? I've been trying to find out what's available for me here in Norway and it seems the standard is Injection but I found one reference to a 2 mg oral dose for baby that's given soon after the birth followed by 1 mg doses, once a week for 13 weeks....


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#16 of 43 Old 06-11-2011, 04:55 PM
 
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I am doing the injection because my normally otherwise laid back ped is insisting on it.  I wasn't going to do either unless the MW suggested it.  She said she only suggests it for prolonged labor, traumatic labor, or if baby has a great deal of head molding or bruising.   I thought that was a good action plan.  She does carry the injection and the oral treatment.   So that was not an issue.

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#17 of 43 Old 06-12-2011, 02:55 PM
 
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My midwives are okay with either, but the assistant was telling me that only the initial benefit has been proven and not the long term benefits like with the shot.  We are debating between the oral dose or nothing.  We decided on the shot last minute after birth when they thought they had to intubate my son.

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#18 of 43 Old 06-13-2011, 02:08 PM
 
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I"m still debating. I think for sure if there is some indicator- rapid labor, bruising, etc... I'll go with the shot. If not, I'm kind of leaning towards nothing at all. I'm not even entirely sure why it's just kind of my inclination.

Jenica- Wife to R & mama to C 8/27/09, my little blonde bombshell and D 7/23/11, whom we love so much we gave him an extra chromosome      cd.gifwinner.jpgfemalesling.GIF
 

 

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#19 of 43 Old 06-17-2011, 05:55 AM
 
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Does anyone know the proper dosing for this?  I bought the one from Precious Arrows mentioned above.  Is it better for me or the baby to take it and how much and how often?

 

Thanks!

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#20 of 43 Old 06-17-2011, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I just found an awesome pediatric naturopath yesterday (that my insurance actually covers!) for my babe who's soon to be born. Asked her about the Vit K (she's a midwife too) and she said she totally supports her clients doing drops not injection. I bought the drops she uses because I was there and wanted to cross it off my list. It's Scientific Botanicals brand, K-Quinone, K-1. 1 drop=2mg. The dosage she suggests is 3 drops, once a week, for the first 6 weeks. She sneaks the first 3 drops in at the newborn exam after birth. I asked her about me taking it and Babe getting it through breastmilk and she said you can do that but only a small amount that gets through.

 

My childbirth teacher said that all the vit k drops she's seen given seem to taste awful to newborns (makes sense) and she's not so sure that anything gets in but I trust this Dr and her dosing. The vit is in a olive oil base which couldn't be THAT bad for brand new intestines....

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#21 of 43 Old 06-17-2011, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh, just remembered the other thing the childbirth teacher (Penny Simkin) said... That newborns start producing Vit K after the first 7 days. Guess it's still in small quantity but there's something. I wonder if that's why the long term-ness of the injection doesn't matter as much?

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#22 of 43 Old 06-18-2011, 11:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfmama31 View Post

I just found an awesome pediatric naturopath yesterday (that my insurance actually covers!) for my babe who's soon to be born. Asked her about the Vit K (she's a midwife too) and she said she totally supports her clients doing drops not injection. I bought the drops she uses because I was there and wanted to cross it off my list. It's Scientific Botanicals brand, K-Quinone, K-1. 1 drop=2mg. The dosage she suggests is 3 drops, once a week, for the first 6 weeks. She sneaks the first 3 drops in at the newborn exam after birth. I asked her about me taking it and Babe getting it through breastmilk and she said you can do that but only a small amount that gets through.

 

My childbirth teacher said that all the vit k drops she's seen given seem to taste awful to newborns (makes sense) and she's not so sure that anything gets in but I trust this Dr and her dosing. The vit is in a olive oil base which couldn't be THAT bad for brand new intestines....



Good info- thanks!

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#23 of 43 Old 06-18-2011, 09:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wolfmama31 View Post

I just found an awesome pediatric naturopath yesterday (that my insurance actually covers!) for my babe who's soon to be born. Asked her about the Vit K (she's a midwife too) and she said she totally supports her clients doing drops not injection. I bought the drops she uses because I was there and wanted to cross it off my list. It's Scientific Botanicals brand, K-Quinone, K-1. 1 drop=2mg. The dosage she suggests is 3 drops, once a week, for the first 6 weeks. She sneaks the first 3 drops in at the newborn exam after birth. I asked her about me taking it and Babe getting it through breastmilk and she said you can do that but only a small amount that gets through.

 

My childbirth teacher said that all the vit k drops she's seen given seem to taste awful to newborns (makes sense) and she's not so sure that anything gets in but I trust this Dr and her dosing. The vit is in a olive oil base which couldn't be THAT bad for brand new intestines....


Who is your naturopath and where is she? You can PM me if you want, Maybe I can get it from her too. It's a trek for me over the water via ferry, but maybe worth it as I'm leaning towards no Vit K at all.

Jenica- Wife to R & mama to C 8/27/09, my little blonde bombshell and D 7/23/11, whom we love so much we gave him an extra chromosome      cd.gifwinner.jpgfemalesling.GIF
 

 

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#24 of 43 Old 06-21-2011, 05:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfmama31 View Post

I just found an awesome pediatric naturopath yesterday (that my insurance actually covers!) for my babe who's soon to be born. Asked her about the Vit K (she's a midwife too) and she said she totally supports her clients doing drops not injection. I bought the drops she uses because I was there and wanted to cross it off my list. It's Scientific Botanicals brand, K-Quinone, K-1. 1 drop=2mg. The dosage she suggests is 3 drops, once a week, for the first 6 weeks. She sneaks the first 3 drops in at the newborn exam after birth. I asked her about me taking it and Babe getting it through breastmilk and she said you can do that but only a small amount that gets through.

 

My childbirth teacher said that all the vit k drops she's seen given seem to taste awful to newborns (makes sense) and she's not so sure that anything gets in but I trust this Dr and her dosing. The vit is in a olive oil base which couldn't be THAT bad for brand new intestines....


I'm also going to buy Scientific Botanicals from here.  My OB was pretty unhappy when I told her I was going to decline Vit K so I told her that I would try to seek out an oral version.  I had planned on just supplementing myself, but she looked at me like I had 2 heads.  I hate being her only "crunchy" patient.

 


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#25 of 43 Old 06-22-2011, 04:39 PM
 
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Senior midwife who came over today doesn't agree with giving vitamin K unless there's an issue, in fact she doesn't agree with a lot out there and is real hands off- this makes me feel good!

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#26 of 43 Old 06-22-2011, 09:21 PM
 
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This was a really difficult decision for me, but we ultimately decided to go with the shot. I am concerned about the oral drops because those are still an artificial chemical, and I don't want that in my baby's digestive system because I am afraid it might disturb the colonization of the baby's intestines with friendly bacteria. There are no studies about how the oral vitamin K affects gut bacteria, but scientists are just beginning to understand the monumental lifelong importance of gut bacteria. Research has shown that the conditions of birth and the baby's feeding (breastfeeding vs. bottle-feeding) drastically affects the gut bacteria. So I don't want anything going in my baby's digestive system except breastmilk.

 

If we didn't do the shot, I would just take the alfalfa tablets to raise my own levels of vitamin K and thus the levels in my breastmilk.

 

But considering the weight of the scientific evidence, I think the shot is a fairly safe option - there is no evidence of negative side effects, despite concerns about the pain to the baby. I know a lot of people are against any unnecessary interventions, which is fine, but as a research scientist I can tell you that the vitamin K shot is nothing at all like a vaccine or prophylactic antibiotics for GBS - the benefits of the vitamin K shot really do seem to outweigh the risks. I'm still a little bit uneasy about giving it to my baby since it is probably unnecessary and the research on the long-term effects is not as robust as I would like, but it still seems like it is the safer thing to do in this case. 

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#27 of 43 Old 06-23-2011, 10:34 AM
 
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I'm declining the injection and I purchased oral vit K from the apothecary to have on-hand in case of severe bruising at birth.  Otherwise I don't intend to give it to our baby at all.  My midwife suspects a possible correlation between vitamin K at birth and jaundice.  She says she has never seen a baby who DIDN'T have vitamin K get jaundice.

BTW, the instructions on the oral vit K for typical use say 2 drops at birth, 2 drops at 10 days, 2 drops at 4 weeks. (Given to baby, not mom)


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#28 of 43 Old 06-23-2011, 10:36 AM
 
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@DrBrockBaca-- interesting point about the gut bacteria issue.  More reasons I will def not be using vit K unless there is severe bruising/trauma evident at birth.


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#29 of 43 Old 06-24-2011, 06:52 AM
 
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@DrBrockBaca-- interesting point about the gut bacteria issue.  More reasons I will def not be using vit K unless there is severe bruising/trauma evident at birth.

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This was a really difficult decision for me, but we ultimately decided to go with the shot. I am concerned about the oral drops because those are still an artificial chemical, and I don't want that in my baby's digestive system because I am afraid it might disturb the colonization of the baby's intestines with friendly bacteria. There are no studies about how the oral vitamin K affects gut bacteria, but scientists are just beginning to understand the monumental lifelong importance of gut bacteria. Research has shown that the conditions of birth and the baby's feeding (breastfeeding vs. bottle-feeding) drastically affects the gut bacteria. So I don't want anything going in my baby's digestive system except breastmilk.

 

If we didn't do the shot, I would just take the alfalfa tablets to raise my own levels of vitamin K and thus the levels in my breastmilk.

 

But considering the weight of the scientific evidence, I think the shot is a fairly safe option - there is no evidence of negative side effects, despite concerns about the pain to the baby. I know a lot of people are against any unnecessary interventions, which is fine, but as a research scientist I can tell you that the vitamin K shot is nothing at all like a vaccine or prophylactic antibiotics for GBS - the benefits of the vitamin K shot really do seem to outweigh the risks. I'm still a little bit uneasy about giving it to my baby since it is probably unnecessary and the research on the long-term effects is not as robust as I would like, but it still seems like it is the safer thing to do in this case. 


Now I'm wondering what you have to say about GBS!




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#30 of 43 Old 06-24-2011, 11:16 AM
 
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Now I'm wondering what you have to say about GBS!

 

The research on prophylactic antibiotics for GBS does not clearly support its use. Only about .5 percent of infants of GBS-positive mothers contract GBS during birth, and only a small fraction of those become ill or die from it, particularly if the infants are healthy and full-term. So you end up giving antibiotics to hundreds or even thousands of women and babies to try to prevent one infection. But the real problem is that the antibiotics actually CAUSE antibiotic-resistant infections of other types, such as E. coli. This is extremely dangerous, because you have then created a situation in which bacteria that happened to be present and would not have likely been harmful have received just enough antibiotics to become resistant such that the resulting infection cannot be treated. Several studies have shown that antibiotics during labor increase the risk for antibiotic-resistant E. coli infections to the same extent that they prevent GBS infections, so the overall rate of neonatal death stays the same - i.e., there is no real benefit to taking the antibiotics. And in the event that your baby is one of the 199 out of 200 who would not have contracted GBS anyway, you have probably interfered to a great extent with the colonization of your baby's healthy gut bacteria by giving it antibiotics at birth. No studies have been conducted to determine the short-term or long-term effects of antibiotics during labor on the baby's gut bacteria, but it follows very clearly from other research that the antibiotics will interfere with the natural colonization process. Scientists just don't know if and how easily babies can recover from this. But given the importance of gut bacteria for the baby's immune system, risk for allergies, digestive function, overall health, and even risk for obesity, I would be extremely cautious about doing anything to hinder the healthy colonization of my baby's gut. 

 

This is a good summary article, which was originally publishing in Mothering magazine: 

http://www.healthychild.com/birth/treating-group-b-strep-are-antibiotics-necessary/

 

It references many academic journal articles which you may or may not have access to (I had to get a lot of them at work where we have journal subscriptions), but I would recommend further research if you are GBS positive and considering the antibiotics. 

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