How old is too old for skin-to-skin? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#61 of 120 Old 08-13-2010, 02:55 PM
 
Heavenly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 4,743
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Okay I am editing this out because I don't want to be misunderstood and be accused of attacking someone - but I will say some people need to learn proper boundaries and might want to have a talk with a child worker.

Shawna, married to Michael, mommy to Elijah 1/18/01, Olivia 11/9/02, and Eliana 1/22/06
Heavenly is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#62 of 120 Old 08-13-2010, 04:28 PM
 
mammal_mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Urban Midwestern USA
Posts: 6,378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
I agree with those who say that skin-to-skin, whether naked or whatever, should continue for as long as, and in whatever forms that, both parent and child want it and are comfortable with it.

GoBecGo, you make such a great point that we as parents should be sensitive to our children's needs and not be pulling away the skin-to-skin if the child is still wanting it.

meemee, I love your posts so much! As an anthropology student, I think you bring such unique perspectives to parenting. I loved the anthropology courses I took in college, but sadly opted for the more "practical" major of social work.

Honestly, I think that all social work students should be required to do extensive study of anthropology, just to broaden their perspective on how the majority of the world's families are living. Then there wouldn't be so much freaking out about things like nudity, sleep-sharing, and full-term breastfeeding.

Consider what is "fully-clothed" for many bush people or Yequana Indians, for example. Even in some European countries, it's still common for young children to run around outdoors completely naked.

The problem is, our American culture associates all nudity and sensual pleasure with sex. It's so sad because as GoBecGo mentioned, many girls start having sex before they are ready, just to get that pleasurable skin-to-skin contact.

I can't help wondering if more children would be content to delay sex until they were ready, if they lived in a culture where they could enjoy the sensual pleasures of being close to someone and being caressed, without it being associated with sex.

Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
mammal_mama is offline  
#63 of 120 Old 08-13-2010, 04:53 PM
 
meemee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Norther California
Posts: 12,620
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by earthmama369 View Post
That said, there's nothing wrong with a good cuddle when a kiddo needs comfort.
eh? just kids?!!!! just joking. i think we ALL could use a good cuddle when we need comfort. and when that cuddle comes from two tiny hands saying mommy its going to be ok ... i cant describe the feeling. it is like meeting god or something. something deeply profound.

 treehugger.gif Co-parent, joy.gifcold.gifbrand new homeschooling middle schoolerjoy.gif, and an attackcat.gif 
meemee is offline  
#64 of 120 Old 08-13-2010, 05:05 PM
 
meemee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Norther California
Posts: 12,620
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly View Post
Okay I am editing this out because I don't want to be misunderstood and be accused of attacking someone - but I will say some people need to learn proper boundaries and might want to have a talk with a child worker.
Heavenly i would totally appreciate it if you DID speak your mind. i know exactly where you are coming from. i know you dont mean it as a personal attack. you want to take care and protect people.

so yes i would love to hear your views - because i know its coming from love and concern esp. since you are studying it now and it is v. alive for you.

what i am saying is yes i recognise that. i am aware of that. but i am not going to hide behind that you know. i am not going to follow what i think is 'wrong' on a public board where i have annonymity. i mean yeah i am all for dd running around naked outside. but i stopped her at 18 months because of the exact concerns you voiced earlier.

ooooooooooh MAMA_MAMMAL i couldnt agree with you MORE!!! absolutely all doctors, social workers, teachers should at least take one class in cultural anthropology. i would go as far as high schools should be taught that too. there would be sooo much respect rather than teasing i would imagine. and anthropology is not just about native society but to have respect for others who are 'different' like the LGBT community, goth, nerds, homeless. they too are cultural groups. of course no one needs them more than govt workers and CPS.

i mean a child running around naked is shocking but women in skimpy skin tight clothes is not.

one of the things i am planning to do if i ever get breast cancer and have to have both my breasts removed, i plan to walk around town with no shirt on and see if i break the rules of nudity. though i think its nipple showing that is not allowed right?!!! not sure. but then i would have nipples on my chest just like a man and not on breasts like a woman.

sorry yeah!!! i am wierd!!

 treehugger.gif Co-parent, joy.gifcold.gifbrand new homeschooling middle schoolerjoy.gif, and an attackcat.gif 
meemee is offline  
#65 of 120 Old 08-13-2010, 05:26 PM
 
EdnaMarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,937
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
We usually get underwear on right out of the shower so completely naked skin to skin hasn't come up, and I'm not sure how I'd feel, but let's say mommy in undies and kids also in undies, either after bath time or whatever, cuddling in bed is not weird at all.

I am not sure where a naked parent and child would come up after the kids hit adolescence, though. I would have a different opinion of that, because I do think post-pubescent nudity can be sexual and even in the least-clothed cultures they still cover their genitals to some extent. However, hugging your teenagers, even if the male has no shirt on, or you're wearing shorts and tanks? Sitting close on the couch with your daughter's head on your (mom's) bare legs with you in boxers? I think that is fine and normal.

I have hugged my cousin... okay, it was a light hug... but still... when he was wearing no shirt. We were adults. It didn't feel odd. And we're a pretty modest family, but it was hot! I MEAN THE WEATHER WAS HOT. Not my cousin. :P Ugh. He's not hot at all, actually, probably why it didn't feel uncomfortable. He is pasty!

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
EdnaMarie is offline  
#66 of 120 Old 08-13-2010, 10:35 PM
 
BunnySlippers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Fluffierville
Posts: 2,392
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by meemee View Post

one of the things i am planning to do if i ever get breast cancer and have to have both my breasts removed, i plan to walk around town with no shirt on and see if i break the rules of nudity. though i think its nipple showing that is not allowed right?!!! not sure. but then i would have nipples on my chest just like a man and not on breasts like a woman.

sorry yeah!!! i am wierd!!
It is completey legal to walk around topless whether you are a man or woman.
You will see (not very often) topless women in our city.

We even have some students arranging a topless event to help keep briinging the issue to a more comfortable level for all.

Decluttering 500/2010
BunnySlippers is offline  
#67 of 120 Old 08-13-2010, 10:52 PM
 
MusicianDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tuponia
Posts: 8,928
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I topfree laws!

And that's why I love living in BC. If a man can go topless, than a woman can go topless. Has it been challenged by the other side? Yes. Has it be upheld in the court of law? Yes!

malesling.GIFMutant Papa to DD (12)hippie.gif and DS (2)babyf.gif, married to DHribbonrainbow.gif
If it looks like I'm trying to pick a fight... I'm not, I'm rarely that obvious.hammer.gif
MusicianDad is offline  
#68 of 120 Old 08-14-2010, 02:45 AM
 
meemee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Norther California
Posts: 12,620
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BunnySlippers View Post
It is completey legal to walk around topless whether you are a man or woman.
You will see (not very often) topless women in our city.

We even have some students arranging a topless event to help keep briinging the issue to a more comfortable level for all.
aaahhh memories.

i actually researched this due to a thread here at MDC.

and the answer is not that simple.

it is left to the discretion of the people around you. if they complain then you have to put a shirt on. the reason why i never see a topless woman on the streets here ever.

 treehugger.gif Co-parent, joy.gifcold.gifbrand new homeschooling middle schoolerjoy.gif, and an attackcat.gif 
meemee is offline  
#69 of 120 Old 08-14-2010, 06:32 AM
 
GoBecGo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by meemee View Post
aaahhh memories.

i actually researched this due to a thread here at MDC.

and the answer is not that simple.

it is left to the discretion of the people around you. if they complain then you have to put a shirt on. the reason why i never see a topless woman on the streets here ever.
But is it that? Or is it that if a man wears no shirt it's a hot day and he is happy to tan but if a woman wears no shirt she's "saying something" about herself and her morality? (not that i believe that, but that is the perception) I have been cat-called for running in a crop-top (with a sports bra under it), when men can jog topless without a second look on a hot day. When i was cat-called i was pushing my 3yo DD in a jogger, and wearing full length running tights (and it was a hot hot day). There were people in shops wearing less than me, but i was "flaunting" myself apparently. I LOVE the idea of taking my scarred breastless chest out in public too, that's a great idea! That's a super feminist thing to do, especially since some find scars from such surgery so depressing and shameful. I love the idea of wearing both our femininity and our bodies AS THEY ARE.

Heavenly i have been very outspoken here, so maybe it's me you're worried about offending. Please speak out, this is a lively discussion but it wouldn't be a discussion at all if half of the people here felt to concerned to actually say what they're thinking!

I do understand that boundaries must be respected when it comes to ANY kind of contact, but i also know little kids screaming out for a bit of physical affection, whose parents think it's "weird" to even cuddle (fully clothed) past the age of about 3. I really worry those children will fall prey to abusers because i fear they will accept loving human contact on ANY TERMS. Abusers can see the signs of a child who is untouched, or have no open dialogue with their parents about bodies, sexuality, etc. And that to me is the danger of NOT being physically available to one's kids. And i guess that's what i'm hoping to be - available. Not pushing anything on anyone, but very open and approachable so that my kids never have to go to someone else to seek contact when they have a need of it.

ETA - i've just been talking to my dad about this (my dad, who i have seen naked and who was with me when i gave birth in June). We were thinking perhaps the reason some on this thread think skin to skin is ok as long as all involved is ok, and some think that the kids CAN'T really be ok with it and there must be some sort of (however subtle) coercion from a parent going on, is cultural...?

I mean, i grew up with my folks being nude around me, and hugs were available, whenever you wanted them. My parents didn't stress about nudity - they didn't encourage or discourage it. I became "private" about my body at about 11 when puberty was in motion, and became more open again when i was about 19 or 20, when i was used to my adult body. My parents were relaxed, i sensed no stress around the situation when nudity was involved. It was ok, it was totally normal to me. I am not damaged by it because i have not internalised the idea that one COULD be damaged by it. Likewise my children haven't, and thus i am confident that i am not traumatising them.

However if i had grown up in a house where nudity was not done, and where everyone was relatively anxious and careful NOT to be seen nude, i'm sure i would, as a child, internalise that anxiety and care and feel genuine trauma if that family taboo was breached and i did see my parents naked.

Like we are relaxed and unconcerned about the DD's seeing us naked, and they are the same, but we are careful NOT to have them see us DTD, and i'm sure if they did our obvious embarrassment over it and how we'd behave WOULD make our kids realise that a boundary had been crossed and thus they might remember it as an adult and cringe.

Obviously it's more complicated than that, because sometimes our friends might tell us how something is not acceptable - thus a child who grew up with nude-and-casual-about-it folks might grow up to feel it was improper.

But is this maybe why some on the thread (me included) can see how nudity or skin to skin with older children CAN be totally harmless, and others suspect that however ok our kids seem there MUST be a problem we are unwilling or unable to see?

Food for thought - off to have Food to Eat now
GoBecGo is offline  
#70 of 120 Old 08-14-2010, 11:47 AM
 
canadianhippie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Georgian Bay, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 446
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
We need to get some Europeans in here to help us through this one. I thought even men sleeping in the buck with other men wasnt an issue through some countries in Europe, North America would say that is gay behaviour. Look at even the Inuit in Canada, traditional hunters sleeping together in the Arctic, First nations in our history. These all these examples of such behaviour of all ages, it didn't represent what it does here.

MusicianDad's comment sparked the thought when he spoke of fathers and sons or other men sleeping together, it has zero representation for any sort of sexual behaviour, in history.

So it's whether your the type or person, or European who feels history can teach us a great example of natural family living...or not

A Toronto born young mama blowkiss.giffreshly moved for a new adventure in ALBERTA! with Superdaddy superhero.gifand her intact and vax free, breastfed and babyworn Aug09 babenono02.gif attending college for early childhood educationwhale.gif   and being blessed with #2 just in time for Valentines Dayheartbeat.gif pos.gif

canadianhippie is offline  
#71 of 120 Old 08-14-2010, 04:53 PM
 
EdnaMarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,937
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm in Germany... and honestly, though a lot of people will sleep naked with a spouse and a young child, "men sleeping in the buck with other men" only happens between two men (maybe three...) when the men are gay. I asked. "Maybe camping, they might go swimming naked, or in the gym locker room..." But if they are sleeping in the same tent naked, they're not spooning or anything.

They were pretty amazed that anyone would think that is the case. Maybe I just know really Puritanical Germans? But they found the suggestion hilarious.

I think we mustn't confuse different standards of modesty with the possibility that the genitals could be considered not sexual at all. That is not to say children can never touch their parents while naked. But we are sexual beings, period. It's not about it "not being sexual". It's that there's much more to a person than that.

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
EdnaMarie is offline  
#72 of 120 Old 08-15-2010, 01:58 PM
 
loraxc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: In the Truffula Trees
Posts: 4,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Sorry, i must have missed the parents on this thread who are laying naked with their teenage boys naked on top of them! The vast majority of those with kids over 6 or so here have said mainly THEIR CHILD has decided to limit even skin-to-skin contact? Referring to a teenager and parent having intimate genital contact is completely over-the-top in the context everyone else is discussing here. I am a parent who is very free about nudity and i NEVER have cause to have my naked 4yo have genital contact with me AT ALL. To suggest so is pretty offensive IMO. Where on this thread is anyone talking about having intimate genital contact with their child?
You said benign contact could occur in any form of undress. To me this would include a parent's naked body contacting the naked genitals of a child. I'm not talking about the parent actually intentionally touching with hands, but, for instance, a nude child genitals ending up in close contact with the parent's nude body (whatever area) while sleeping.

I think it's very possible to be cuddly with your child and give that pleasant touch without there needing to be full nudity. That's what bothers me here, really, is nude genitals.

grateful mother to DD, 1/04, and DS, 2/08

loraxc is offline  
#73 of 120 Old 08-15-2010, 02:55 PM
2xy
 
2xy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,056
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I never went out of my way to expose more skin for baby to connect with. I'm small breasted, so the baby practically had to be plastered against my torso in order to nurse, anyway.

I like to wear clothes. It's not due to my upbringing....my parents were very comfortable with nudity, but even as a very small child I always wore panties at the very least. And I get cold easily and live in a part of the country where it's cool/cold most of the year. Going naked or minimally dressed is not part of who I am, and I sleep with clothing on, too.

A babe with just a diaper on, with bare arms cradling him, is getting plenty of skin.
2xy is offline  
#74 of 120 Old 08-15-2010, 04:51 PM
 
canadianhippie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Georgian Bay, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 446
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post
I'm in Germany... and honestly, though a lot of people will sleep naked with a spouse and a young child, "men sleeping in the buck with other men" only happens between two men (maybe three...) when the men are gay. I asked. "Maybe camping, they might go swimming naked, or in the gym locker room..." But if they are sleeping in the same tent naked, they're not spooning or anything.

They were pretty amazed that anyone would think that is the case. Maybe I just know really Puritanical Germans? But they found the suggestion hilarious.

I think we mustn't confuse different standards of modesty with the possibility that the genitals could be considered not sexual at all. That is not to say children can never touch their parents while naked. But we are sexual beings, period. It's not about it "not being sexual". It's that there's much more to a person than that.
Well when you made the suggestion to your friends did you see that the comment was regarding men in history all over the Europe, Canada, US, Africa etc? Not Modern Germany society? I was expressing the point of whether history can teach us natural family living and if were willing to uphold those values to our lives today.

A Toronto born young mama blowkiss.giffreshly moved for a new adventure in ALBERTA! with Superdaddy superhero.gifand her intact and vax free, breastfed and babyworn Aug09 babenono02.gif attending college for early childhood educationwhale.gif   and being blessed with #2 just in time for Valentines Dayheartbeat.gif pos.gif

canadianhippie is offline  
#75 of 120 Old 08-15-2010, 05:55 PM
 
GoBecGo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by loraxc View Post
You said benign contact could occur in any form of undress. To me this would include a parent's naked body contacting the naked genitals of a child. I'm not talking about the parent actually intentionally touching with hands, but, for instance, a nude child genitals ending up in close contact with the parent's nude body (whatever area) while sleeping.

I think it's very possible to be cuddly with your child and give that pleasant touch without there needing to be full nudity. That's what bothers me here, really, is nude genitals.
I have daughters, so i can't imagine how my child's genitals could come to be resting on me unless she straddled me, which wouldn't be possible in bed, since her leg under me would be painfully crushed by my rolling on it. My younger DD is in nappies, and my elder is far to big to sleep on top of anyone who is also hoping to sleep. But say i had a little boy and he was asleep and i was asleep and his genitals were against my back or hip....we are both asleep, how is this NOT benign? Malign contact is surely damaging contact, contact where the intention is NOT innocent or (as in the case of sleeping) absent - as in there IS no intention to touch, genitals or otherwise, if we are all asleep. What perceived harm is there in genitals touching naked adult skin when all concerned are asleep? What damage will ensue? I have slept (not naked) next to friends both male and female in bed, and occasionally we have rolled against one another in our sleep, and IME one or both wake up, realise proximity, and roll away.

Is contact automatically malign if it involves genitals? Is my helping a child wipe after going to the loo, or putting cream on sore genitals, or cleaning up during a nappy change, or any of the other times i might need to touch their genitals automatically malign and harmful? And if my child is made to sit fully clothed on the fully clothed lap of a sexually aroused man who is aroused BY them sitting there, is that benign because no genitals are touching skin?

Is it the idea that the child will be somehow harmed if his genitals touch someone else's skin when he is sleeping, or that you don't want your skin to be touched by your kid's genitals when YOU are asleep, even if you won't know about it after?
GoBecGo is offline  
#76 of 120 Old 08-15-2010, 06:01 PM
 
EdnaMarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,937
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
GoBecGo, I think they are talking about much older children than ours (mine are 2006 and 2009). That's when it gets... unusual.

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
EdnaMarie is offline  
#77 of 120 Old 08-15-2010, 06:20 PM
 
MusicianDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tuponia
Posts: 8,928
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post
GoBecGo, I think they are talking about much older children than ours (mine are 2006 and 2009). That's when it gets... unusual.


I was never damaged by possible accidental touching of my genitals to my dad when I was 10 or 11. There was nothing sexual in sharing a bed with my dad, naked or not. It was just me and him sleeping. Absolutely no confusion on my part, and none on his either.

malesling.GIFMutant Papa to DD (12)hippie.gif and DS (2)babyf.gif, married to DHribbonrainbow.gif
If it looks like I'm trying to pick a fight... I'm not, I'm rarely that obvious.hammer.gif
MusicianDad is offline  
#78 of 120 Old 08-15-2010, 06:28 PM
 
GoBecGo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post
GoBecGo, I think they are talking about much older children than ours (mine are 2006 and 2009). That's when it gets... unusual.
But i don't see anyone here saying their older kids DO want to be totally naked with them. My family was REALLY open about nudity and i still became "shy" about my body and theirs when puberty hit around 11 or 12. Actually puberty began about 10, but i sort of grew into my self-consciousness.

I would be really really surprised if my kids wanted, as teenagers, to be naked with me. Really surprised. There's no-one here saying "oh my 15yo keeps asking for skin-to-skin" - i just don't think it's likely. I think what's likely is that kids will naturally get to an age where the incest taboo becomes relevant (when their hormones begin to surge since it is as sexually aware beings we reject those we know as our close relatives - incest LAWS are mainly there to protect children because they DON'T have the disgust reaction to those relationships) and THEY will end nude-type contact themselves. I know i did. I don't know anyone who was having nude contact with parents as teens except those who were being abused.
GoBecGo is offline  
#79 of 120 Old 08-15-2010, 07:07 PM
 
WaitingForKiddos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Southern Ca
Posts: 2,393
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My Ds is all of 4 weeks old so I have no idea what I'm talking about but I admit that nursing or just holding him when I'm naked and he's naked is just so lovely. So innocent and....the feeling I imagine I would have had if I birthed him vaginally (I had a cesarean) and was in an environment that supported skin-to-skin. It's almost that same sniff of a fresh newborn head rush for me.

I think there's a real need to look at those yummy hormones that release when we are skin-to-skin with loved ones.

Cindy, joyful SAH mama to rainbow1284.gif William & Katherinefly-by-nursing2.gif Forever missing Amelia 7-12-09 angel3.gif  signcirc1.gifsaynovax.giflactivist.gif Ask me about my natural cesarean! 

 

 

WaitingForKiddos is offline  
#80 of 120 Old 08-15-2010, 08:05 PM
 
meemee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Norther California
Posts: 12,620
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBecGo View Post
But i don't see anyone here saying their older kids DO want to be totally naked with them.
i think the point is honoring diversity - even if its completely different than mine. THAT is my major point. we all know our limitations. our own comfort levels. do we need to apply those same standards to others?!!!

no one here is saying that but there might be some families where nudity is a way of being. whether 5, 10, 15 or even 25. some families suddenly do realise omg i am naked or she is naked. some never do. so if we know a 15 year old eating dinner naked with her father are we supposed to jump to conclusion. if i hear her sleeping with her father the hair on my back is going to rise up but am i going to make a judgement call based only on that fact.

nudity is a sense of being. i cant imagine anyone conciously even noting it.

we saw our mom naked all our lives. it really actually helped my bro. beginning of his teen he got all embarassed seeing mom naked. not that she lounged around naked. she would be on her way to take a shower and realise she had forgotten to mop. so she would quickly mop naked and go back to her shower. well seh told him to get over it. and later on he admitted how much that helped him deal with the subject. he was never embarrased with the memory of seeing my mom naked. but with her 'shushing him' he realised that nudity was no big deal.

its funny. my ex now is v. mindful in front of dd. dd tells me 'ma i dont know why daddy makes such a big deal in front of me. i know he's uncomfortable and i can understand that. but why is he so. its just a naked body.' she was even shocked when he went to see the bodies revealed exhibition with her and refused to use the word penis or vagina. she spent some time looking at the nerves coming out of both of them at the exhibition.

 treehugger.gif Co-parent, joy.gifcold.gifbrand new homeschooling middle schoolerjoy.gif, and an attackcat.gif 
meemee is offline  
#81 of 120 Old 08-16-2010, 09:06 AM
 
EdnaMarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,937
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post


I was never damaged by possible accidental touching of my genitals to my dad when I was 10 or 11. There was nothing sexual in sharing a bed with my dad, naked or not. It was just me and him sleeping. Absolutely no confusion on my part, and none on his either.
That's pre-puberty, parent of the same sex, and if you read below, there ARE people talking about the (however unlikely) scenario of an adolescent walking around naked or desiring naked cuddles.

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
EdnaMarie is offline  
#82 of 120 Old 08-16-2010, 12:37 PM
 
mammal_mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Urban Midwestern USA
Posts: 6,378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post
That's pre-puberty, parent of the same sex, and if you read below, there ARE people talking about the (however unlikely) scenario of an adolescent walking around naked or desiring naked cuddles.
Could you find the actual quote talking about adolescents desiring naked cuddles? I must have missed it. I know some adoslescents do desire naked cuddles with other adolescents -- but I've never heard of any desiring naked cuddles with parents.

Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
mammal_mama is offline  
#83 of 120 Old 08-16-2010, 12:58 PM
 
mammal_mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Urban Midwestern USA
Posts: 6,378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Edna Marie, Maybe this is the quote you were talking about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by loraxc View Post
Nude 13-yo-boy lying on top of a nude parent? No, even if the intent is benign. It's not appropriate, IMO.
I get the impression that this poster was actually disagreeing with those those who think nudity is fine as long as both parent and child are comfortable with it. I don't recall anyone here who is comfortable with nudity, saying that they have 13-yo nude boys lying on top of them while they are nude.

This seems to me like the same sort of extreme scenario that gets introduced when people discuss child-led weaning -- you know, the "what if your child is 30 and you are 60 and she still wants to nurse from you?"-kind of scenario that you never hear of happening IRL, but whenever some people talk about being child-led in some area, some other people always have these weird pictures popping up in their minds.

Still, I actually think it's good to get this stuff out here and work through it with our loving MDC virtual-family.

Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
mammal_mama is offline  
#84 of 120 Old 08-16-2010, 03:32 PM
 
EdnaMarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,937
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
Could you find the actual quote talking about adolescents desiring naked cuddles? I must have missed it. I know some adoslescents do desire naked cuddles with other adolescents -- but I've never heard of any desiring naked cuddles with parents.
Quote:
no one here is saying that but there might be some families where nudity is a way of being. whether 5, 10, 15 or even 25. some families suddenly do realise omg i am naked or she is naked. some never do. so if we know a 15 year old eating dinner naked with her father are we supposed to jump to conclusion. if i hear her sleeping with her father the hair on my back is going to rise up but am i going to make a judgement call based only on that fact.
It's the hypothetical, which I find disturbing.

It's telling that nobody actually knows anyone who has done this, or isn't posting here!

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
EdnaMarie is offline  
#85 of 120 Old 08-16-2010, 04:38 PM
 
MusicianDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tuponia
Posts: 8,928
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post
That's pre-puberty, parent of the same sex, and if you read below, there ARE people talking about the (however unlikely) scenario of an adolescent walking around naked or desiring naked cuddles.
Thank you for decided when I did or didn't start puberty.

Walking around naked? I did that until I was 15 or 16. Really. Just me and my dad so why does it matter? It's not like I don't have anything he hasn't seen. Really, there are plenty of cultures where family members see each other naked on a regular basis, or see people they don't know naked... Really, nudity doesn't become sexual just because someone hit puberty.

malesling.GIFMutant Papa to DD (12)hippie.gif and DS (2)babyf.gif, married to DHribbonrainbow.gif
If it looks like I'm trying to pick a fight... I'm not, I'm rarely that obvious.hammer.gif
MusicianDad is offline  
#86 of 120 Old 08-16-2010, 06:32 PM
 
mammal_mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Urban Midwestern USA
Posts: 6,378
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post
It's the hypothetical, which I find disturbing.
Well, even in meemee's hypothetical example that you quoted, she didn't say anything about adolescents desiring naked cuddles.

Quote:
It's telling that nobody actually knows anyone who has done this, or isn't posting here!
It's telling me that it's highly unusual for adolescents to desire naked cuddles from their parents. What is it telling you?

Susan -- married unschoolin' WAHMomma to two lovely girls (born 2000 and 2005).
mammal_mama is offline  
#87 of 120 Old 08-16-2010, 07:08 PM
 
tallulahma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: detroit
Posts: 2,609
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post
That. I'm so glad I don't have any memories of my dad naked.
i have weird memories of my mother because she was crazy about us kids touching each other while naked. us kids werent allowed to bathe together or play in a pool naked or anything. it was weird.

but she did walk around naked after showers, we all did. And I have no weird memories about that at all. i can remember my mom changing in front of me as a teen and its not weird.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl View Post
THANK you! Same here. I don't know why remembering one's dad naked would even be an issue. In fact I find some of the condemnation on this thread rather perplexing. Naked should not be sexualizing by default, and I think that is why some folks have a problem with sharing nakedness with children.

Naked can just be naked, and skin to skin contact with children is a loving thing.
i think the issue comes up when people havent worked through their OWN nakedness issues. Im not a huge naked person. I dont particularly like the way my body "hangs" at the moment. lol. But i really cannot see the shame in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllisonR View Post
Well said.



I have one memory. That was me about age 8 going into my parents bathroom for something, which went by my dads closet. He was naked, getting a pair of underwear, and turned and SCREAMED, I mean really screamed like an enraged monster about to attack "Get the H*LL OUT OF HERE!" I was so scared I didn't see anything, and I was really confused for a long time why he would be so enraged. What could I have seen? His penis? So what? What is so special or unique, or good or bad, sexual or not, beautiful or dirty.... about that. I'm sure his is just like everyone else's penis. I think it affected me in the way I thought about it, and decided how everyone's body is actually quite normal, natural, and well, generic.



I can so totally see this happening when my kids are older.
reactions can be intense

i have a memory of my mom screaming at me for pinching my own nipples when I was about 4 or 5 and it really changed how I perceived my body until I was much older and could work through it all as an adult.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
Thank you for decided when I did or didn't start puberty.

Walking around naked? I did that until I was 15 or 16. Really. Just me and my dad so why does it matter? It's not like I don't have anything he hasn't seen. Really, there are plenty of cultures where family members see each other naked on a regular basis, or see people they don't know naked... Really, nudity doesn't become sexual just because someone hit puberty.
exactly this.

i dont even understand how nakedness is inappropriate ever. in swim class in high school we were all naked with each other!

in my early 20s ive slept in beds with roommates in the summer pretty much naked and we were NOT sexual with each other.

people need to get over this whole nakedness/touching = SEXUAL.

intent needs to be there. without intent to engage in sexual activity its not sexual.

no one freaks out over a 15 year old boy and his mom hugging at the beach, or taking a pic together with their arms around each other.

why? bc their "genitals" are covered?

i think that seeing a situation as inappropriate simply based on the state of undress is sad.


THAT said, we dont cuddle naked. lol

not because of weirdness with it... but we tend to keep the house at about 70- and it drops to about 55 at night and everyone would be cold.

~jen~ )O( mama to k 07/05 o 5/08 and c 12/09
tallulahma is offline  
#88 of 120 Old 08-16-2010, 10:07 PM
 
loraxc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: In the Truffula Trees
Posts: 4,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Malign contact is surely damaging contact, contact where the intention is NOT innocent or (as in the case of sleeping) absent - as in there IS no intention to touch, genitals or otherwise, if we are all asleep. What perceived harm is there in genitals touching naked adult skin when all concerned are asleep? What damage will ensue? I have slept (not naked) next to friends both male and female in bed, and occasionally we have rolled against one another in our sleep, and IME one or both wake up, realise proximity, and roll away.

Is contact automatically malign if it involves genitals? Is my helping a child wipe after going to the loo, or putting cream on sore genitals, or cleaning up during a nappy change, or any of the other times i might need to touch their genitals automatically malign and harmful? And if my child is made to sit fully clothed on the fully clothed lap of a sexually aroused man who is aroused BY them sitting there, is that benign because no genitals are touching skin?
Obviously if all parties are asleep and don't register it, it's benign. But IME, children become aware of pleasure emanating from genitals pretty early. If a child has an innocent (as in, parent not intentionally involved) but pleasurable experience rubbing up against or otherwise intimately contacting his/her genitals with a parent's body, which I think is much more likely when sleeping nude and cuddling, it could be a confusing memory. I could certainly see my 2yo son waking up in bed with me with an erection and trying to rub on me. He clearly knows what the deal is there and in fact he has asked me to rub it, so why wouldn't he rub on me in bed? He wouldn't remember, of course, so whatever, but an older child might.

My own DD needed some anti-yeast cream on her vulva at 4 and would not let me put it on. She also does not want me to watch her in the bathroom (this rule does not apply to me--she still walks in on me, which I don't care about). I am happy to see that the message that those parts are private has registered. I believe that a child who lives in a house where adult-child contact with the naked genitals is considered normal and benign, even if it IS, could end up not registering some more subtle forms of abuse. Even if the experience was just as *physically innocent* as your sleeping with your own child, would you want an uncle or a family friend sleeping naked with your child? What if he/she said, what, you do this at home with mom, right?

And no, of course abuse doesn't have to include nude genitals to be abuse.

BTW, I don't really think anyone here is cuddling with their nude teenagers. However, I think the tween age is getting kind of gray for nude cuddling, myself, and the statement was that ALL kinds of contact between nude family members, presumably of ANY age, is perfectly fine as long as intent is benign.

grateful mother to DD, 1/04, and DS, 2/08

loraxc is offline  
#89 of 120 Old 08-16-2010, 10:24 PM
 
tallulahma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: detroit
Posts: 2,609
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by loraxc View Post
Obviously if all parties are asleep and don't register it, it's benign. But IME, children become aware of pleasure emanating from genitals pretty early. If a child has an innocent (as in, parent not intentionally involved) but pleasurable experience rubbing up against or otherwise intimately contacting his/her genitals with a parent's body, which I think is much more likely when sleeping nude and cuddling, it could be a confusing memory. I could certainly see my 2yo son waking up in bed with me with an erection and trying to rub on me. He clearly knows what the deal is there and in fact he has asked me to rub it, so why wouldn't he rub on me in bed? He wouldn't remember, of course, so whatever, but an older child might.

My own DD needed some anti-yeast cream on her vulva at 4 and would not let me put it on. She also does not want me to watch her in the bathroom (this rule does not apply to me--she still walks in on me, which I don't care about). I am happy to see that the message that those parts are private has registered. I believe that a child who lives in a house where adult-child contact with the naked genitals is considered normal and benign, even if it IS, could end up not registering some more subtle forms of abuse. Even if the experience was just as *physically innocent* as your sleeping with your own child, would you want an uncle or a family friend sleeping naked with your child? What if he/she said, what, you do this at home with mom, right?

And no, of course abuse doesn't have to include nude genitals to be abuse.

BTW, I don't really think anyone here is cuddling with their nude teenagers. However, I think the tween age is getting kind of gray for nude cuddling, myself, and the statement was that ALL kinds of contact between nude family members, presumably of ANY age, is perfectly fine as long as intent is benign.

dont you think though that 2 & 4 are pretty young to be worried about those issues? what I mean is, 2 seems young to be rubbing genitals on people for stimulation and 4 seems to be pretty young to not want to let their own mother apply medication, I would think. Maybe not.

i dont know, as I only have girls. But any sort of sexual touch hasnt seemed to register in our house at all. maybe boys are different.

my 5 yo still asks for help in the bathroom sometimes because she cant get "clean" enough. I have never seen my 2 year old be at all interested in anything going on as far as "pleasure" goes. neither of my kids really see their genitals as "private areas". They would totally not let anyone touch them though. They wouldnt let just any adult undress them or help them in the bathroom either. Not because we have taught them so, but because in their entire lives, no one but us has ever helped them shower or go to the bathroom... not even grandparents.



But when I had my son, both girls took on an incredible fascination with penis'. they think they are amazing. Its all they talk about- "look at his penis!' "penis" baby has a cute little penis" and so forth. its been difficult to teach them that we cant just touch things that interest us because they belong to other people without shaming the body parts... because no one ever yells- "dont touch that elbow!"

probably off topic now entirely.

~jen~ )O( mama to k 07/05 o 5/08 and c 12/09
tallulahma is offline  
#90 of 120 Old 08-16-2010, 11:16 PM
 
loraxc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: In the Truffula Trees
Posts: 4,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
what I mean is, 2 seems young to be rubbing genitals on people for stimulation and 4 seems to be pretty young to not want to let their own mother apply medication, I would think. Maybe not.
I think you are going to get a lot of replies about little boys and their penises. Trust me, they find them early. DD was later to figure this out, but she was masturbating by 4. She also has been taught not to allow others to touch her genitals (except a doctor) since the age when she became independent in the bathroom. Am I concerned??? No. Not sure what you're implying. DD is a normal little boy and DD is a normal little girl.

grateful mother to DD, 1/04, and DS, 2/08

loraxc is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off