The boy in the pretty purple and pink boots is mine :) - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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Old 09-26-2010, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post
I typically dress my dd in girl stuff, because thats what the family buys and we have a lot of it. However, if I have a boy next time,you better believe Im gonna recycle a lot of those clothes. The idea that boys shouldnt like/wear pink is absurd. Iwould love it if my (eventual) DS asked for purple rain boots, polka dotted leggins, a tutu,or purple sparkley socks. Polka dots are fun!! Tutus are fun!
I'm sure that your statements will meet with approval here, but I hope you realize that you are stating in advance an intention to steer a potential boy child towards dressing like a girl instead of a boy, and so plan to impose a sort of gender anti-norm. I certainly don't see how that could be seen as more valid than what I've described.
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Old 09-26-2010, 11:29 PM
 
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We all impose gender roles on our children every day. It completely makes sense for me to realize this, and in fact I'm okay with that realization. Landover seems to have her head screwed on straight, similarly to me. She made a number of points that were not successfully countered, as did I; and only chirping crickets greeted my little thought experiment.
Do tell what points have been made that have not been countered. The only crickets I heard were the outraged ones.

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See, this is the sort of problem Landover was addressing, or one of the problems. When you twist someone's words out of context, you can distort the meaning badly. Nothing I wrote about teaching my children about gender roles means that 1) I am incorrect about the existence of those gender roles 2) that I communicate that they're particularly strict, never broken, etc. or 3) that my kids won't be tolerant. In fact, I think that your assumption that teaching children about the existence of gender roles necessarily leads to prejudice is highly questionable.
I do agree that gender roles are imposed on everyone, every day. Being aware of this is a very good thing. Some gender roles make sense: ie. as a lactating woman I nurse my child. Mother is one of my roles. But some do not make sense: My child is too young to care about sports, therefore making him wear a "little slugger" shirt simply because he is a boy seems wrong to me. And why do you not see that theme for girls? Its completely artificial, and thus to be avoided.

I have not seen anyone twist words out of context unless that is what you call it when someone does not agree with you.

And its not teaching children about gender roles that I take issue with. It is teaching them that those gender roles must be strictly adhered to...and that anyone who does not adhere to them is not normal, and thus somehow wrong. That I disagree with. If you want your kids to be tolerant than that is great but that too must be taught. And teaching tolerance of different choices can be difficult when those choices are off limits. It sends a strong contradictory message I think.

Both you and Landover have made the argument that the world is what it is and gender norms should be followed should be followed. Not much going on here as to why. I see this argument as pretty weak. Logically artificial gender roles only harm our children because they put kids into a cultural box not of their own making.
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Old 09-26-2010, 11:31 PM
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a lot of societies also had/have assigned roles and accepted behaviours for inter-gendered persons, something that our culture lacks
... er, yeah-- and those are learned btw.

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But honestly, in western industrialised societies, what practical reasons remain for gender differentiation? I cannot think of any function or role in society besides actual childbearing that is not completely interchangeable between the sexes. At this point then, isn't it simply futile to distinguish between "girl stuff" and "boy stuff"?
No, because my sons would encounter a lot of resistance if they did not make any attempt to abide by cultural norms. So just like I will discourage my children from wearing leather harnesses day-to-day, I will encourage them to wear more normal sorts of clothes. There's nothing wrong with this that I can see. I want my children to have good lives, not necessarily to be brave crusaders for gender-bending justice (although if they make that choice as adults, I will support and love them as always).
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Old 09-26-2010, 11:34 PM
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Do tell what points have been made that have not been countered. The only crickets I heard were the outraged ones.
I encourage you to go read the thread. And while you're at it, perhaps you would like to participate in my thought experiment.

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And its not teaching children about gender roles that I take issue with. It is teaching them that those gender roles must be strictly adhered to...and that anyone who does not adhere to them is not normal, and thus somehow wrong.
That's a pretty good example of sophistry right there. Nothing I've written suggests that I teach my children that gender roles must be strictly adhered to, or that anyone who does not is wrong. (However, it is important to realize that when something falls outside the norm, it is not normal by definition. A good example is being transgendered, a condition which occurs in a very small segment of the population, and is hence certainly not normal. Noting the truth does not make one a bigot.)
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Old 09-26-2010, 11:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Iucounu View Post
I'm sure that your statements will meet with approval here, but I hope you realize that you are stating in advance an intention to steer a potential boy child towards dressing like a girl instead of a boy, and so plan to impose a sort of gender anti-norm. I certainly don't see how that could be seen as more valid than what I've described.
Well no actually, its simply telling the child that the clothing of neither gender is off limits. Then they have the freedom to decide what they like without a parent in there muddling it up.

That being said at this point I try to stay a middle course and choose stuff that does not send strong gender messages in either direction. No princess stuff and no sports stuff. Let the kid decide for himself what he likes and who he is before society shoves is crappy expectations down his throat. It helps that we don't have a TV.
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Old 09-26-2010, 11:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Iucounu View Post
I encourage you to go read the thread. And while you're at it, perhaps you would like to participate in my thought experiment.



That's a pretty good example of sophistry right there.
Oh believe me I have been very consistent in reading this thread. I asked a simple question...what have you said that you have received no response to? If you would like a response perhaps you need be more clear. Of course if any post that does not follow your logic is simply to be labeled sophistry then you are not open to any response anyways.
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Old 09-26-2010, 11:53 PM
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Well no actually
Er yep. It's intentionally dressing a boy in girl's clothes.
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Old 09-26-2010, 11:54 PM
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Oh believe me I have been very consistent in reading this thread. I asked a simple question...what have you said that you have received no response to? If you would like a response perhaps you need be more clear. Of course if any post that does not follow your logic is simply to be labeled sophistry then you are not open to any response anyways.
Did you read what you quoted in that very post? If you're going to adopt the "la la, I can't hear you" sort of debate tactics, you won't be able to play. Did you respond to my thought experiment and I missed it? That's just a single example, and it's not alone.

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And its not teaching children about gender roles that I take issue with. It is teaching them that those gender roles must be strictly adhered to...and that anyone who does not adhere to them is not normal, and thus somehow wrong.
As for your sophistry, here again is where I point out one example-- it's right up there in the recent posts in this thread, and you can feel free to verify that:

That's a pretty good example of sophistry right there. Nothing I've written suggests that I teach my children that gender roles must be strictly adhered to, or that anyone who does not is wrong. (However, it is important to realize that when something falls outside the norm, it is not normal by definition. A good example is being transgendered, a condition which occurs in a very small segment of the population, and is hence certainly not normal. Noting the truth does not make one a bigot.)

The sophistry, as I clearly indicated, lies in using terms such as "must" and "strict[ly]" and implying that I am teaching my children that anyone falling outside gender norms is wrong. You can twist all you like, but your words are there for all to see.
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Old 09-27-2010, 12:56 AM
 
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Did you read what you quoted in that very post? If you're going to adopt the "la la, I can't hear you" sort of debate tactics, you won't be able to play. Did you respond to my thought experiment and I missed it? That's just a single example, and it's not alone.

Er, no I just have no freaking idea what you are talking about when you say "thought experiment". Care to share?

As for your sophistry, here again is where I point out one example-- it's right up there in the recent posts in this thread, and you can feel free to verify that:

That's a pretty good example of sophistry right there. Nothing I've written suggests that I teach my children that gender roles must be strictly adhered to, or that anyone who does not is wrong. (However, it is important to realize that when something falls outside the norm, it is not normal by definition. A good example is being transgendered, a condition which occurs in a very small segment of the population, and is hence certainly not normal. Noting the truth does not make one a bigot.)

The sophistry, as I clearly indicated, lies in using terms such as "must" and "strict[ly]" and implying that I am teaching my children that anyone falling outside gender norms is wrong. You can twist all you like, but your words are there for all to see. Riiiiight...


Ok, then if you are not teaching your child that it is wrong to deviate from gender norms than what are you teaching him by asking him to follow so-called normal gender expectations? Because what I asked in MY previous post is how can the two co-exist? How can you teach a kid that they should do xyz at the same time telling them abc is also alright...but not for them only for other people. It makes.no.sense!

Or to quote myself "Both you and Landover have made the argument that the world is what it is and gender norms should be followed should be followed. Not much going on here as to why. I see this argument as pretty weak. Logically artificial gender roles only harm our children because they put kids into a cultural box not of their own making."

You have argued that it will make their live easier to go with the flow, but is easier the same as better?

Also it is simply not "intentionally dressing a boy in girl clothes" to allow that boy a choice of bi-gendered clothing. Choice is the key concept here...the kid gets to choose what they want because they like it, not because social mores are breathing down their neck. Heck I was at the farmer's market yesterday and there were a couple of boys in tutus...which I only really thought about today in the context of this thread. Yay for their parents allowing them to choose tutus! But honestly its not even that much of a subversion because I see stuff like that all the time. All the time. Honestly.

And really pulling out certain words used in this discussion to highlight some sort of argumentative conspiracy against you (ie. your words are being twisted and sophistry being employed for the sole purpose of making you look bad) is juvenile. I'm having this discussion in good faith because I believe strongly its worthwhile. Not because I'm looking to hone my rhetoric skills, or need practice in logical fallacy.

If you are comfortable with your position and see no reason to continue the discussion just say so. I'm cool with that.
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Old 09-27-2010, 01:22 AM
 
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What exactly is this oft-mentioned "thought experiment?" Since posters here are being accused of not answering your questions, or responding directly to your "experiments," would you kindly enumerate them in a neat little list so that we can address each one in an orderly manner?

Also, quotes from posters who have advocated "forcing" or "encouraging" their boys to "dress like girls," would be extremely helpful, because I haven't seen any such posts.

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Old 09-27-2010, 01:32 AM
 
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Nevermind, found it:
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Originally Posted by Iucounu View Post
Here is a small thought experiment for anyone to try, in an attempt to show that we all have at least a nominal preference (which is not mean to imply prejudice): You want to raise a child, but have not been able to have any and will have only one chance to raise a child, this chance. You have a chance to choose just one of two otherwise identical twins, one of whom will with 100% certainty be gay (let's assume that such things can be decided at the time of babyhood, which I don't think is actually the case) and the other of whom will certainly be straight. If you refuse to choose or decide to leave it up to chance, you will lose your chance at a child forever. You have seen both babies and know you would love either one of them, but you must choose one, and the other one will go to another loving family, who just happen to be gay, and both of the would-be parents in that other family wear all the colors of the rainbow. Which do you choose, and why? (Any attempt to circumvent the rules, e.g. by saying you would leave it up to chance in secret, is a non-answer.)
...and it's a nonsensical question. That's like forcing people to choose between babies of different races, just waiting to either jump on them for being racist, or accusing them of trying to win the hippest mom on MDC award. My thoughts on your "thought experiment" is that I'm not stupid enough to fall for it. Sorry.

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Old 09-27-2010, 01:43 AM
 
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As one of the "gay crusaders" on this thread , I can assure you that I don't *intentionally* dress my son in "girls" clothes. I intentionally dress him in the clothing he has chosen--regardless of the color. He needed soccer cleats and I spent 45 minutes with him in the store, figuring out what size he needed, and then we began pulling out the boxes that were his size. He opened a box, saw that the cleats inside were white with pink trim, and he refused to look any further.

Perhaps other 4 year old boys aren't as stubborn and determined as my son. Once his mind is made up about something like this, it is just not worth the fight. If he says he won't wear something, he won't wear it, and I don't like to waste my money, so if that means he wears pink boots, so be it. Last time I checked, his pink snow boots kept his feet just as warm and dry as his classmate's navy blue ones did.

I did draw the line at his request for girl's underwear, but only because I was able to show him that the girl's underwear didn't have enough room in the front to accommodate his genitals.
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Old 09-27-2010, 01:54 AM
 
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I did draw the line at his request for girl's underwear, but only because I was able to show him that the girl's underwear didn't have enough room in the front to accommodate his genitals.
How cute! Which reminds me...My mother "let" me wear Thundercat Underoos (ie "boy's underwear") as a girl. Guess what, I'm grown up now, and..ta-da! I'm straight! Similarly, even as a hetero woman, I still prefer boys underoos, and still wear them. What of it?

Those of us who agree that a child should be able to chose their clothing regardless of society's gender norms, have been repeatedly accused of taking things "way too far" and twisting words. In fact, I think that going from a preference for pink boots at age 4 to homosexual, transgendered, "abnormal" person is the argument that is exaggerated and going too far. Dude, we're talking boots, not future sexuality here! Geez.

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Old 09-27-2010, 02:20 AM
 
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We all impose gender roles on our children every day. It completely makes sense for me to realize this, and in fact I'm okay with that realization. Landover seems to have her head screwed on straight, similarly to me. She made a number of points that were not successfully countered, as did I; and only chirping crickets greeted my little thought experiment.
We don't impose gender roles. There is nothing my DD can do that DS can't, and nothing DS can do that DD can't. With in the realms of age of course, there are things DD is physically or cognitively capable of that DS isn't.

Personally, I don't see how the rest of us don't have our "heads screwed on straight".

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Old 09-27-2010, 02:22 AM
 
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See, this is just the sort of sophistry that Landover was noting. Teaching a child that gender norms exist, or for example shopping for a boy in the boy's section at a clothing store, does not communicate the message that it's not acceptable for boys to wear certain things. As I've written before, encouraging one thing simply does not necessarily lead to a lack of tolerance for other things.



It's a defective message.
Inappropriate for boys to wear certain things by your standards. I don't believe it is inappropriate for boys to wear certain things.

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Old 09-27-2010, 02:28 AM
 
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As one of the "gay crusaders" on this thread , I can assure you that I don't *intentionally* dress my son in "girls" clothes. I intentionally dress him in the clothing he has chosen--regardless of the color. He needed soccer cleats and I spent 45 minutes with him in the store, figuring out what size he needed, and then we began pulling out the boxes that were his size. He opened a box, saw that the cleats inside were white with pink trim, and he refused to look any further.

Perhaps other 4 year old boys aren't as stubborn and determined as my son. Once his mind is made up about something like this, it is just not worth the fight. If he says he won't wear something, he won't wear it, and I don't like to waste my money, so if that means he wears pink boots, so be it. Last time I checked, his pink snow boots kept his feet just as warm and dry as his classmate's navy blue ones did.

I did draw the line at his request for girl's underwear, but only because I was able to show him that the girl's underwear didn't have enough room in the front to accommodate his genitals.
DS is the same way and he's not yet 2. If it's not pink, or flowery he won't wear it... Unless of course it's a dress, then colour be damned he'll beg to put it on.

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Old 09-27-2010, 02:30 AM
 
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As for the thought experiment, I'd rather go childless the rest of my life than to be a willing party in separating twins...

Sorry, to mess with your experiment but I'm not big on separating siblings, even ones that are still in infancy.

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Old 09-27-2010, 02:32 AM
 
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"Against the grain should be a way of life. What's worth the prize is always worth the fight."
-If Today Was Your Last Day, Nickelback.

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Old 09-27-2010, 06:17 AM
 
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As for the thought experiment, I'd rather go childless the rest of my life than to be a willing party in separating twins...

Sorry, to mess with your experiment but I'm not big on separating siblings, even ones that are still in infancy.
Good point, MuscianDad; I'm hard pressed to even think of a good reason to separate siblings.

For the record, Iucounu, twin studies have shown overwhelmingly that trends toward homosexuality are genetic and not learned. Research has shown repeatedly that twins separated at birth are highly likely (+55%) to result in the same sexual orientation. Whatever goal you have in proposing such an experiment, I can't comment on, because you must be too smart for me. It does seem a poor example to prove a point on choosing to support established gender norms while employing a "thought experiment" that brings up a situation which proves the opposite.

I await, with resignation, your witty and well worded post that so effectively counters what I've said. I know it must be coming.

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Old 09-27-2010, 06:25 AM
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Good point, MuscianDad; I'm hard pressed to even think of a good reason to separate siblings.

For the record, Iucounu, twin studies have shown overwhelmingly that trends toward homosexuality are genetic and not learned. Research has shown repeatedly that twins separated at birth are highly likely (+55%) to result in the same sexual orientation. Whatever goal you have in proposing such an experiment, I can't comment on, because you must be too smart for me. It does seem a poor example to prove a point on choosing to support established gender norms while employing a "thought experiment" that brings up a situation which proves the opposite.

I await, with resignation, your witty and well worded post that so effectively counters what I've said. I know it must be coming.
It doesn't have to be witty and well worded, does it? It just has to have the right ideas.

The goal for the thought experiment was in the proposal. Nobody is game enough to take it, it seems.

I hope you realize that even a 55% correlation from that one study shows that genetics are not the whole picture.
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:28 AM
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As for the thought experiment, I'd rather go childless the rest of my life than to be a willing party in separating twins...

Sorry, to mess with your experiment but I'm not big on separating siblings, even ones that are still in infancy.
You're not really messing with it, you're just avoiding it. I'll make it even simpler for you:

Far in the distant future, all of humanity has transitioned to a worldwide system whereby certain things like sexual orientation are picked prior to birth, by the parents, and not left up to chance. There is no stigma in being gay in that future culture.

You've decided to have a child. Which do you pick, gay, straight or bisexual? Why?
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:29 AM
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"Against the grain should be a way of life. What's worth the prize is always worth the fight."
-If Today Was Your Last Day, Nickelback.
I will remember that next time I ponder the choice: head for the boy's section, or the girl's section, at the clothing store.
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:33 AM
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How cute! Which reminds me...My mother "let" me wear Thundercat Underoos (ie "boy's underwear") as a girl. Guess what, I'm grown up now, and..ta-da! I'm straight! Similarly, even as a hetero woman, I still prefer boys underoos, and still wear them. What of it?

Those of us who agree that a child should be able to chose their clothing regardless of society's gender norms, have been repeatedly accused of taking things "way too far" and twisting words. In fact, I think that going from a preference for pink boots at age 4 to homosexual, transgendered, "abnormal" person is the argument that is exaggerated and going too far. Dude, we're talking boots, not future sexuality here! Geez.
It's an argument that hasn't been made. Your argument is defective, and is subject to what has sometimes been called the "straw man" fallacy (you pretend that someone else made statements they didn't make, in order to attack them).
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:39 AM
 
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You're not really messing with it, you're just avoiding it. I'll make it even simpler for you:

Far in the distant future, all of humanity has transitioned to a worldwide system whereby certain things like sexual orientation are picked prior to birth, by the parents, and not left up to chance. There is no stigma in being gay in that future culture.

You've decided to have a child. Which do you pick, gay, straight or bisexual? Why?
See, I can't see any situation where leaving it up to chance is not an option. I really wouldn't consider sexual orientation when trying to pick a child.

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Old 09-27-2010, 06:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Iucounu View Post
I will remember that next time I ponder the choice: head for the boy's section, or the girl's section, at the clothing store.
How about you ponder it the next time your son would rather fight for his right to do what he enjoys rather than give in to societal pressures.

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Old 09-27-2010, 06:47 AM
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Ok, then if you are not teaching your child that it is wrong to deviate from gender norms than what are you teaching him by asking him to follow so-called normal gender expectations? Because what I asked in MY previous post is how can the two co-exist? How can you teach a kid that they should do xyz at the same time telling them abc is also alright...but not for them only for other people. It makes.no.sense!
Communicating norms does not mean that I teach non-acceptance of people or practices outside the norm. It just.makes.sense.if.you.think.about.it.for.a.momen t.before.hitting.submit. There are lots of straight people out there in everyday life who live within gender norms, and who are accepting of gay people and people who dress differently from the norm as well. Some of them even are boys whose parents shopped in the boy's section at JC Penney, and vice versa, if you can believe it!

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Or to quote myself "Both you and Landover have made the argument that the world is what it is and gender norms should be followed should be followed. Not much going on here as to why. I see this argument as pretty weak. Logically artificial gender roles only harm our children because they put kids into a cultural box not of their own making."
All of culture puts children into a cultural box not of their own making. We all live under the tyranny of the English language here on this board. The requirement for children to go clothed instead of naked is a sort of box; and I know first-hand that small children often like to be naked, but we don't allow them to go naked in public, at least in most places. Bare statements about harm, with an implication that the harm will necessarily result, are not logic.

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You have argued that it will make their live easier to go with the flow, but is easier the same as better?
Scenario 1. My son goes for a job in a conservative suit, and gets the job. Win!

Scenario 2. My son goes for a job in Carnival gear, and loses the job. Lose!

Scenario 3. My son goes for a job in a conservative skirt, and loses the job. Lose!

Scenario 4. My son goes for a job in a conservative suit except for pink high heels, and loses the job. Lose!

Scenario 5. My son goes for a job in a conservative suit, and decides he would like to speak during the interview in Pig Latin, and loses the job. Lose!

Scenario 6. My son goes naked for a job, and loses the job. Lose!

Scenario 7. My son goes for a job, and announces that he doesn't intend to live by any cultural or societal norms, or abide by them on the job either. Lose!

In these examples, I think it's better to go for an interview in appropriate garb, and behave appropriately, in order to have a better chance at getting the job. I say this with full understanding that what's appropriate involves a set of value judgments, and so does my idea that getting the job by conforming is better than being jobless but completely free in self-expression.

Cultural and societal norms are not all terribly destructive. Some of them are nonsensical and unnecessarily restrictive, to be sure. Once they are in place, it can be easier to simply abide by them instead of bucking the trend, when there is no harm in abiding by them. I don't see any harm in abiding by cultural norms regarding dress, at least for the vast majority of people. This does not mean that I am unaccepting of people who don't abide by those norms.

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Also it is simply not "intentionally dressing a boy in girl clothes" to allow that boy a choice of bi-gendered clothing.
No, intentionally taking girl's clothes from an older sister and recycling them for use with a boy is intentionally dressing a boy in girl's clothes.

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Heck I was at the farmer's market yesterday and there were a couple of boys in tutus
That's quite convenient for our discussion here, and I wish you'd thought of it earlier. No matter-- I have never in my life seen something like that at a farmer's market. I am filing it away for the future, in the same part of my mind that contains MusicianDad's experience of the macho boys at his high school who all wore the skirts: strange but true.

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And really pulling out certain words used in this discussion to highlight some sort of argumentative conspiracy against you
Not a conspiracy, just lousy argumentation. I see people pull such tricks all the time when they get frustrated. I certainly don't think you need "practice in logical fallacy", but you could try to keep in mind what the other posters have actually said, so that you're not skewing what they've said to have something more to your liking to which to craft a strong, indignant response.

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If you are comfortable with your position and see no reason to continue the discussion just say so. I'm cool with that.
I am, as I've said many times here in this thread, which you must have read by now, quite comfortable with my position.
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Iucounu View Post
It's an argument that hasn't been made. Your argument is defective, and is subject to what has sometimes been called the "straw man" fallacy (you pretend that someone else made statements they didn't make, in order to attack them).
You mean like saying that those of us who have no problem allowing a son to wear pink and purple are actively encouraging them to be "effeminate"? (You) Or that we are trying to be "super cool and oh-so-hip" by encouraging more "girlie" choices? (Landover)

I think this whole conversation is probably done though, since we seem to have degenerated into "you aren't arguing properly, so I'm making a better point" without actually making any points.

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Old 09-27-2010, 06:55 AM
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See, I can't see any situation where leaving it up to chance is not an option.
Hence the thought experiment. I predicted that you would duck the question.
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Old 09-27-2010, 07:47 AM
 
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You know, every single thought experiment I have encountered... The situation is at least somewhat plausible. Except for yours. Because honestly I don't give a flying fig if my child is gay or straight or transgendered or wants to be a green goat with freakin' polka dots!

You may have a preference for your child but not everyone puts enough stress on sexual orientation to really care where on the spectrum their child ends up.

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Old 09-27-2010, 07:47 AM
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You mean like saying that those of us who have no problem allowing a son to wear pink and purple are actively encouraging them to be "effeminate"? (You)
Exactly; that's a great example of what is often called the "straw man fallacy". In reality, I was responding in part to this post by florio: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...=#post15868994
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Originally Posted by fiorio View Post
We have always encouraged DS to go beyond the traditional gender expectations, so he has a workbench and a dollhouse in his room, by his choice. It made me so happy to see him playing with the baby dolls and in the kitchen at preschool; even happier to see all the other little boys playing with those too without a "that's for girls" ever spoken... He put Angelina Ballerina stickers all over his chest before bed. yeah for openminded children!
Pumpkin_Pie had also previously written:
Quote:
I have tried to pick out bright colors for him and have included pink and purple in his wardrobe right from the start. Some kids have called him a girl, and he doesn't even correct them. Just hoping that it helps to encourage self confidence as he grows and continues to love pink.
I wrote in response: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...=#post15869342
Quote:
Kids will very often emulate what they see, especially if it's coming from a role model. There's no harm in teaching your children a certain way to act; it's what parents have done throughout history. I don't see any harm in teaching a boy to be boyish, and I certainly wouldn't encourage him to be 'open-minded' if that means actively encouraging him to be girlish in the eyes of others.
I stand by my statements, which pointed out the difference, including near the beginning of this thread, between encouragement of open-mindedness regarding others and encouragement of going outside the norm. I also don't see that it is unfair to realize and note that some people here do actively encourage their children in gender-bending behavior or clothing choices. Some admit it openly, some not. spedteacher30's story about the shoes would be a good example of acceptance, not active encouragement.

I am willing to teach my child to be open-minded, and do; but that simply doesn't extend to actively encouraging him to be effeminate, and I intend to continue shopping for boy's clothes for him. I suspect that some of the gay activists and others in this thread actually do encourage their children to bend gender norms even more than stated in this thread (which is okay, though not what I intend to do)-- in fact one plans to even recycle her girl's clothing for use by a future boy child. It may be helpful to remember that encouragement can be as simple as a smile. If you smiled when your son chose pink and didn't smile as broadly when he chose blue on a different day, you communicated to him that you valued his pink choice more than the blue one. He may have heard you exclaim with joy to others how cute he is in his little pink clothes, or other things that might be viewed as effeminate; and this is validation and encouragement of certain future choices as well.
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