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#151 of 167 Old 09-27-2010, 06:53 AM
 
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Ah, you can't brush it off that easily. I was referencing this post by you directed at me:

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Originally Posted by Iucounu View Post
I would accept himas a person with a sad, disabling disorder, and my son.

I guess it's obvious, isn't it, that we don't share the same views? I certainly don't see being a transgendered person, which is really a terrible disorder that often results in self-mutilation, as normal; you do. This is just one example of how we can't possibly see eye to eye.

In your relativist view, everything is normal (which robs the idea of normalcy of any meaning whatsoever), and you see no harm in encouraging, for example, a young boy to be effeminate, because to you that is actually desirable. In my non-relativist view, there is value in being a fully-functioning person who fits well within normal roles in our society, if possible; so, for example, it is truly less advantageous in my view to be a trans-gendered person than to be normal. There you have it. You haven't said anything so far that convinces me that I'm in the wrong.
I never actually said I encourage my son to be effeminate, nor did I say that being effeminate was desirable (or at least not more desirable than not being effeminate).

ETA: What I have stated through out this thread is that what is desirable is to encourage children to be themselves and not give into pressures to conform to certain standards.

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#152 of 167 Old 09-27-2010, 06:55 AM
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You know, every single thought experiment I have encountered... The situation is at least somewhat plausible.
Okay. Here's some more reading to get you started on learning about thought experiments (I love Wikipedia):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment
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#153 of 167 Old 09-27-2010, 07:11 AM
 
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I don't appreciate being treated like I don't know what I'm talking about. I have done thought experiments before. I know what they are and how they work, and like I said, so far yours is the only one I have encountered that isn't even the slightest bit "possible".

Why? Because your thought experiment has alternative options. No matter how much you say "well you're not allowed", those options are still viable options. I picked one. I chose to not choose between the twins because of a whole separate moral value that I have. As soon as another variable is involved, the experiment is void because it doesn't test the principle it is intended to test.

As for your second one. Even in the event that all children are born from artificial means, you are neglecting the fact that people still have the option of taking a random egg and a random sperm and creating a random child no matter how many different things you can test for. Case point, we did just that with DS despite the fact that a specific genetic mutation (oculocutaneous albinism type 2) is very easily tested for and, given that I have it, something that is a very real possibility. It's not "do I choose it or don't I?" as much as a "should I make the choice or leave it up to the fates."

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#154 of 167 Old 09-27-2010, 07:14 AM
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Here, again, is what I wrote:
Quote:
In your relativist view, everything is normal (which robs the idea of normalcy of any meaning whatsoever), and you see no harm in encouraging, for example, a young boy to be effeminate, because to you that is actually desirable. In my non-relativist view, there is value in being a fully-functioning person who fits well within normal roles in our society, if possible; so, for example, it is truly less advantageous in my view to be a trans-gendered person than to be normal. There you have it. You haven't said anything so far that convinces me that I'm in the wrong.
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I never actually said I encourage my son to be effeminate
Nor IIRC did I claim that you had said that, although I would suspect that you have shaped his growth as a parent naturally does. You did write previously in this thread about encouraging people in their gender-role-defying behavior (or gender-expanding, if you like). I stand by these statements as well; it seems to me that to you, encouraging effeminacy, especially in a boy who you may see as tending to it in the first place, is a fine thing to do. You see value in exploding or bending gender stereotypes, to avoid the harm you've written about several times in this thread. I still see value in encouraging my children to fit within normal gender roles, although I would accept my children if they fell outside of them.
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#155 of 167 Old 09-27-2010, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
I don't appreciate being treated like I don't know what I'm talking about. I have done thought experiments before. I know what they are and how they work, and like I said, so far yours is the only one I have encountered that isn't even the slightest bit "possible".

Why? Because your thought experiment has alternative options. No matter how much you say "well you're not allowed", those options are still viable options. I picked one. I chose to not choose between the twins because of a whole separate moral value that I have. As soon as another variable is involved, the experiment is void because it doesn't test the principle it is intended to test.
Okay. Read the article if you want to learn more about thought experiments, including how many (including many of the most famous ones) are not intended to mirror real life or to be possible to implement, and how they are designed to isolate a principle. If you fail to abide by the rules of the experiment, you simply are avoiding participating in it. But we don't have to go round and round on this; you are avoiding the experiment, and it was noted. Fair enough.
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#156 of 167 Old 09-27-2010, 07:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Iucounu View Post
In fact, I think that your assumption that teaching children about the existence of gender roles necessarily leads to prejudice is highly questionable.
Ah, but that's not what I said. I said "kids who are taught, trained, steered through modeling, whatever that there are strict gender rules are the ones who are probably going to be less tolerant of the kids who weren't." There's no "necessarily" about it. I was careful to word that bolded section the way I did. Please don't change it into something I didn't say.

Every time my daughter makes some comment about pink or purple being a "girl's color" I cringe. I'm hoping that by attempting to demonstrate that there are no hard and fast rules about what girls or boys wear or do, that I'm decreasing the chances of her being judgmental of people who may wear or do things differently than her. You seem to be hoping that by attempting to demonstrate that our society has defined gender roles you are helping your child be normal and accepted, which is just as admirable a goal. I think the difference is that you are focusing on how the world sees your kid and I'm focusing on how my kid sees the world. These are both important roles of a parent!
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#157 of 167 Old 09-27-2010, 07:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Iucounu View Post
Okay. Read the article if you want to learn more about thought experiments, including how many (including many of the most famous ones) are not intended to mirror real life or to be possible to implement, and how they are designed to isolate a principle. If you fail to abide by the rules of the experiment, you simply are avoiding participating in it. But we don't have to go round and round on this; you are avoiding the experiment, and it was noted. Fair enough.
First rule of thought experiments, there cannot, under any circumstances, be an out. There either has to be no third option, or a third option that in universally unacceptable.

It is not realistic that all people have to choose one of the children because they would never be physically capable of going through the choice of no child. As long as self-sacrifice is what is being used to force the choice, there is no valid thought experiment.

ETA: I didn't fail to abide by the rules of your experiment. You just can't seem to accept that a certain percentage of the population will choose self-sacrifice if given that option.

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#158 of 167 Old 09-27-2010, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by ecoteat View Post
Ah, but that's not what I said. I said "kids who are taught, trained, steered through modeling, whatever that there are strict gender rules are the ones who are probably going to be less tolerant of the kids who weren't." There's no "necessarily" about it. I was careful to word that bolded section the way I did. Please don't change it into something I didn't say.
I think you did say it. "Probably" means "more likely than not". Hence if you took a large random sample of children who in your opinion are "taught, trained, steered" etc., you will have some (more than half in a large enough sample) with less tolerance as a result, in your view. I didn't mean that you said that 100% of the kids would be prejudiced; I meant that you said that prejudice would definitely be caused (in the aggregate).

We don't have to quibble over such stuff, though. I can at least agree that an intolerant sort of teaching about gender roles would obviously result in prejudice in a large number of kids. I just don't think that simply teaching about gender norms, with a consistent message of tolerance, will result in an increase in intolerance, especially because children will notice on their own that gender norms exist (except that without guidance they may not learn about tolerance). I also don't think that such teaching, plus making some initial choices for my kids as to what they will wear, will teach my kids that they can't be different or that it's okay to hate people who are different.
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#159 of 167 Old 09-27-2010, 07:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Iucounu View Post
Here, again, is what I wrote:




Nor IIRC did I claim that you had said that, although I would suspect that you have shaped his growth as a parent naturally does. You did write previously in this thread about encouraging people in their gender-role-defying behavior (or gender-expanding, if you like). I stand by these statements as well; it seems to me that to you, encouraging effeminacy, especially in a boy who you may see as tending to it in the first place, is a fine thing to do. You see value in exploding or bending gender stereotypes, to avoid the harm you've written about several times in this thread. I still see value in encouraging my children to fit within normal gender roles, although I would accept my children if they fell outside of them.
Um, you just re-quoted the section where you specifically said I would encourage breaking gender norms because it's preferential. I'll scale it down for you.

You said:
Quote:
and you see no harm in encouraging, for example, a young boy to be effeminate, because to you that is actually desirable.
Which I have never said. I have claimed multiple times that encouraging a child to be his or her self is desirable.

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#160 of 167 Old 09-27-2010, 08:10 AM
 
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I thought I had in interesting point, that I tried very hard to word in a way that couldn't be exaggerated or twisted, and it was still exaggerated and twisted. No wonder so many people are frustrated in this thread. I'll go back to just watching the train wreck instead of getting involved.

I'm also curious, as I keep following this, how can this conversation possibly end?
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#161 of 167 Old 09-27-2010, 08:22 AM
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I thought I had in interesting point, that I tried very hard to word in a way that couldn't be exaggerated or twisted, and it was still exaggerated and twisted.
How so? If something is probable, it is more likely than not. If some message makes it 51% more likely that any particular hearer will be less tolerant as a result, then 51% of all hearers will be less tolerant as a result.
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#162 of 167 Old 09-27-2010, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
Um, you just re-quoted the section where you specifically said I would encourage breaking gender norms because it's preferential. I'll scale it down for you.

You said:

Which I have never said. I have claimed multiple times that encouraging a child to be his or her self is desirable.
It's interesting how my supposed reference to your nonexistent statement about your own son fell right out of there, eh? My response above stands.
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#163 of 167 Old 09-27-2010, 09:21 AM
 
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It's an argument that hasn't been made. Your argument is defective, and is subject to what has sometimes been called the "straw man" fallacy (you pretend that someone else made statements they didn't make, in order to attack them).
Um, actually, you are the person who is repeatedly trying to make parents choose between straight and gay babies. This thread is not even about straightness or gayness, but you keep bringing it up. This quoted portion actually sums up your own arguments quite nicely. And you still didn't answer my question. NO ONE in this thread has stated they they encourage their boys to wear girls clothing. No one! No one has stated that they prefer that their child be gay. It may stump you, but the people here have stated that they have absolutely no preference when it comes to the sexual orientation of their children. Your refusal to believe us is actually a very telling reflection of you.

And please stop "defining" things for us. It's insulting (which I believe is intentional) and juvenile. I know what a straw man fallacy is. I also know what thought experiments are. (and wikipedia is not a valid resource, BTW)

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#164 of 167 Old 09-27-2010, 11:53 AM
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Um, actually, you are the person who is repeatedly trying to make parents choose between straight and gay babies.
No, simply encouraging people to honestly admit that we all have certain preferences, minor though they may be.

Quote:
This thread is not even about straightness or gayness
It went in that direction, as conversations sometimes do go in different directions. Let's take a look at how that happened:

* MusicianDad used the term "faggot", in a hyperbolic comment about how someone would wind up beating up gay people as a result of clothing angst.

* I used the term "transsexual", specifically talking about an example of seeing one and teaching my son to be tolerant about his or her clothing choices (admittedly, I could have used the term "transvestitte" there).

* Mama Metis asked me what I'd do if my son turned out to have a non-mainstream gender identity.

* MusicianDad wrote, "I know I strayed in to support for LGBTQ individuals, but a lot of that is interconnected with boy (and girls) who break the gender barriers whether they identify that way or not. The more we support the straight individuals who break the gender norms, the closer we become to giving LGBTQ individuals the respect they deserve in society."

... and it kept going from there.

Quote:
NO ONE in this thread has stated they they encourage their boys to wear girls clothing. No one!
I guess this would be a good time for you to go back and actually read the thread. For starters, you can go back and read the last page or two and find out more information. What you will find is that people in this thread have stated that they do encourage people to act outside of gender roles, or would, including one poster who stated an intent to reuse her little girl's clothing to be worn by any future little boy she may have. Another poster owned up to actively encouraging non-gender-normal choices by her little one. MusicianDad provides a safe environment for people to act out their non-gender-role-conforming behavior, and has indicated that he encourages people to open up about their desires to engage in such behavior (I don't think that's wrong, but it certainly is encouragement). In addition, it is not really incredible to suppose that someone here may have, when their son or daughter randomly or otherwise selected non-gender-normal clothing at a young age, actually encouraged them by visibly, happily validating their choice instead of simply buying the item.

Quote:
No one has stated that they prefer that their child be gay.
People have ducked the issue. The ducking seems to have stumped some people, some of whom even initially seemed to have selectively read past the whole issue.

Quote:
And please stop "defining" things for us.
Where someone indicates that they don't know what a term means, it is helpful to simply point to or explain a definition to make sure we're on the same page. It's not juvenile; it's helpful. I provided the further information on thought experiments to help out MusicianDad.

Quote:
wikipedia is not a valid resource, BTW
Sure it is. It's often incredibly useful for overviews on a topic.
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#165 of 167 Old 09-27-2010, 12:07 PM
 
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No, simply encouraging people to honestly admit that we all have certain preferences, minor though they may be.
Please don't try to rationalize your own prejudices and preferences by accusing us all of having them. If you are uncomfortable with your own attitudes, then do some self-reflection. Do not call me a liar again. I have absolutely 100% NO preference as to whether my children are gay or not. Stop saying that we all have preferences in this regard. That is NOT true.

I guess this would be a good time for you to go back and actually read the thread. For starters, you can go back and read the last page or two and find out more information. What you will find is that people in this thread have stated that they do encourage people to act outside of gender roles, or would, including one poster who stated an intent to reuse her little girl's clothing to be worn by any future little boy she may have. Another poster owned up to actively encouraging non-gender-normal choices by her little one. MusicianDad provides a safe environment for people to act out their non-gender-role-conforming behavior, and has indicated that he encourages people to open up about their desires to engage in such behavior (I don't think that's wrong, but it certainly is encouragement). In addition, it is not really incredible to suppose that someone here may have, when their son or daughter randomly or otherwise selected non-gender-normal clothing at a young age, actually encouraged them by visibly, happily validating their choice instead of simply buying the item. (bolding mine)
This is called loving your children unconditionally! If my child is happy with an item, regardless of the color or what gender mainstream society intends it for, then I am happy for them because I love them! Children should be validated! Stop making us all out to be nut-jobs because we encourage freedom of choice in our children.

People have ducked the issue. The ducking seems to have stumped some people, some of whom even initially seemed to have selectively read past the whole issue.
What on Earth are you talking about? You're intentionally trying to obfuscate the issue.

Where someone indicates that they don't know what a term means, it is helpful to simply point to or explain a definition to make sure we're on the same page. It's not juvenile; it's helpful. I provided the further information on thought experiments to help out MusicianDad.
That was just condescending, rude, and totally uncalled for. Just because your attempt at a thought experiment was an epic failure, does not mean that you get to insult the intelligence of others. Wow.
I could very much do without the superior and dismissive attitude, thank you very much

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#166 of 167 Old 09-27-2010, 12:13 PM
 
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Thought experiments and such aside, really, customs and social mores do change and evolve. Sure right now there is some risk of ridicule - great or small depending on where you live - in sending your little boy into the world in pink boots and frilly leggings. And yes, as a parent I will weigh the cost/benfits of my choices and my sons choices on his overall well-being. I do think however that the benefit of encouraging my son to be himself, and to stand for his ideas is an important and positive lesson - far more so than teaching him to bow to peer pressure or deny his own tastes and nature because "custom" so dictates.

Not so long ago having different race friends was a social no-no, I can immagine that many parents, while maybe indifferent or in disagreement with the principle of the thing would have guided their children away from that to save them from the possible contempt of their peers.

On a much milder note, just think about hair - long or short, it just isn't a discriminant anymore between masculine and feminine.

I totally get that a number of people wait for trends, fashions and customs to become mainstream before adopting them. Someone has to take these trends forward however from weird-dom to everyday. And those who do this are the people who are confident in themselves and not afraid to throw out meaningless social impositions.

I like to think that if my son wants to wear pink boots to school, he will be sure enough of himself to know there is no reason not to beyond empty tradition (and in this specific matter custom is empty indeed) and laugh down those who would laugh at him for their narrow-mindedness.

And I would also like to think that by the time my son grows up, society will have evolved and changed again, thanks also to all the little boys in tutus today, and my son can go for a job interview in a conservative skirt or pink heels if thats how he rolls and be totally unexceptional. (Pig latin is another matter, a common language has a practical real life function, which cannot be said for clothing styles).

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#167 of 167 Old 09-27-2010, 12:35 PM
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Well said, seriosa.
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