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#31 of 48 Old 10-17-2010, 07:25 PM
 
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well, let me be the first to say i believe they are evil. there are plenty of studies that suggest that we all get a little dopamine squirt from using electronic devices, checking texts and email etc. here's a kind of reductive ny times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/07/te...y/07brain.html
and it's not much of a stretch to say that there is a slightly bigger dopamine squirt with these games. and teaching kids to enjoy that dopamine-squirt cycle early, can predispose them to other problems. for instance, cocaine works by blocking dopamine re-uptake. read the wiki about dopamine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine you will see that it is a prolactin inhibitor, for starters. can't wait to hear all those 'but i just can't make any milk' whines from women 20 years from now who are plugged into the borg 24/7. further down the wiki page read the dopaminergic mind hypothesis, and the connection of dopamine to psychosis. now considering these factors, can we be so blind as to think that this is all not going to change our society for the worse? a dopaminergic society sounds like crap to me. my understanding of neurology is that many of our neural pathways grow by use and reinforcement- that's why therapy after a stroke works. we can actually re-grow the pathways- in the instance of these games i would say our kids are growing these pathways differently- re-wiring the brain, as is asserted in Endangered Minds and The Plug in Drug. if your kids use the games and don't have a problem, then it may just be because you have strong genetics to resist the problem, or proper nutrition, but it is naive to believe that others won't develop a problem from early childhood dopamine addiction / adaptation.
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#32 of 48 Old 10-18-2010, 05:14 AM
 
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But we get the dope squirt because it's feedback, so that means it's an extraordinarily great teaching tool.

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can't wait to hear all those 'but i just can't make any milk' whines from women 20 years from now who are plugged into the borg 24/7
Wow. I am on the computer almost every time I nurse. It actually helped me sit here for this long. LOL!

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#33 of 48 Old 10-18-2010, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
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can't wait to hear all those 'but i just can't make any milk' whines from women 20 years from now who are plugged into the borg 24/7.
First I have to ask, what is the borg?

I hear ya on the this. These are my thoughts as well. My concern is that my kids could be missing out on this pathway wiring and not be able to compete with their generation. My opinion is that video games are not good for the mind body, but since this is the world we live in, I question whether or not I should adapt.
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#34 of 48 Old 10-18-2010, 12:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by provocativa View Post
well, let me be the first to say i believe they are evil. there are plenty of studies that suggest that we all get a little dopamine squirt from using electronic devices, checking texts and email etc. here's a kind of reductive ny times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/07/te...y/07brain.html
and it's not much of a stretch to say that there is a slightly bigger dopamine squirt with these games. and teaching kids to enjoy that dopamine-squirt cycle early, can predispose them to other problems. for instance, cocaine works by blocking dopamine re-uptake. read the wiki about dopamine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine you will see that it is a prolactin inhibitor, for starters. can't wait to hear all those 'but i just can't make any milk' whines from women 20 years from now who are plugged into the borg 24/7. further down the wiki page read the dopaminergic mind hypothesis, and the connection of dopamine to psychosis. now considering these factors, can we be so blind as to think that this is all not going to change our society for the worse? a dopaminergic society sounds like crap to me. my understanding of neurology is that many of our neural pathways grow by use and reinforcement- that's why therapy after a stroke works. we can actually re-grow the pathways- in the instance of these games i would say our kids are growing these pathways differently- re-wiring the brain, as is asserted in Endangered Minds and The Plug in Drug. if your kids use the games and don't have a problem, then it may just be because you have strong genetics to resist the problem, or proper nutrition, but it is naive to believe that others won't develop a problem from early childhood dopamine addiction / adaptation.
Cocaine and methamphetamine both cause dopamine surges many times what the human body can create on its own.

Two of the biggest things we do that release dopamine are eat and have sex, so be sure to disallow food for your kids, lest they become addicted to pleasure. And if you have sex with your significant other, you're both at risk of becoming drug addicts, so knock that off, too.

Doctors aren't out to kill you or your children. Childbirth isn't inherently safe. Science is actually smarter than your intuition. Lighten up. Use sunscreen.

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#35 of 48 Old 10-18-2010, 01:10 PM
 
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First I have to ask, what is the borg?
The Borg were a fictional, aggressive race in the Star Trek series/movies. They were part technology / part human. They would plug into the collective mind/computer to regenerate. I think that their sole purpose was to "assimilate" other life forms, including humans, until the entire universe became Borg.

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#36 of 48 Old 10-18-2010, 01:22 PM
 
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Dh wanted to buy a Wii last Christmas. I convinced him otherwise because one of our 4 girls...not naming names...is very destructive. and spending even $50.00 for it to be destroyed within hours of opening it is not logical to us. If they decide when they are all older-that they would like to try it- I might consider a used nintendo, or a vintage atari. my kids are all under 7 btw. my oldest has friends who play video games and has asked about it, but hasn't pushed that she wanted one.

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#37 of 48 Old 10-18-2010, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Cocaine and methamphetamine both cause dopamine surges many times what the human body can create on its own.

Two of the biggest things we do that release dopamine are eat and have sex, so be sure to disallow food for your kids, lest they become addicted to pleasure. And if you have sex with your significant other, you're both at risk of becoming drug addicts, so knock that off, too.
Food and procreation are 100% essential to the survival of any creature.
It doesn't make sense to compare those to video games or drugs.
It is not healthy to get an dopamine surge from a drug. I wonder if video games aren't that bad since your body produces the dopamine from excitement and interest versus a substance consumed. I don't know, but I'm very interested.

I do think that some people get a major dopamine rush from certain foods, but I also think it happens from "drug like" foods; dairy, sugar, refined carbs.... which are not natural to the human diet anyway (a whole different issue and not good either).

People get adrenaline rushes from physical activity as well as mental activity.
People can get addicted to all types of things. I just don't think fun things like shopping, watching TV, playing video games, spending time on the internet, can be compared to survival necessities like eating, intimacy, exercise, or sleep.
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#38 of 48 Old 10-18-2010, 05:39 PM
 
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Food and procreation are 100% essential to the survival of any creature.
It doesn't make sense to compare those to video games or drugs.
It is not healthy to get an dopamine surge from a drug. I wonder if video games aren't that bad since your body produces the dopamine from excitement and interest versus a substance consumed. I don't know, but I'm very interested.

I do think that some people get a major dopamine rush from certain foods, but I also think it happens from "drug like" foods; dairy, sugar, refined carbs.... which are not natural to the human diet anyway (a whole different issue and not good either).

People get adrenaline rushes from physical activity as well as mental activity.
People can get addicted to all types of things. I just don't think fun things like shopping, watching TV, playing video games, spending time on the internet, can be compared to survival necessities like eating, intimacy, exercise, or sleep.

There is nothing inherently wrong with dopamine or pleasure, and anyone can take anything to a detrimental extreme. Adults become addicted to food, sex, shopping, gambling- the whole gamut of pleasure-inducing things. I do not believe you can parent everything out of your child- instilling good habits is fantastic, and something everyone should aspire to, but it's foolish to think that you can mold with certainty the adults your kids will be. The idea that we should limit things that are simply fun so our kids don't grow up liking and preferring fun things is simply absurd to me.

There's nothing inherently wrong with fun, pleasure, or the dopamine response we get from fun and pleasure. It's not all or nothing- there is a lot in between eating only the most nutritionally-dense bland food simply to fulfill a bodily need and gorging on high-fat, high-flavor foods, just as there's a lot in between only playing with leaves and rocks and playing Call Of Duty 24/7.

No one is saying it's a good idea to stick a kid in front on an Xbox all day, everyday, but some seem to think that video games have literally no redeeming value, are evil, and harmful to a person's mind and body. If you truly think that, that's your prerogative, but I think it's unhealthy to go to such extremes. You can limit, say, refined sugar, from your kids' diet, but you have no way of knowing if they'll grow up and have no taste for it (which is the case for some) or binge on anything sweet they can (which is also the case for some.)

In this brief article about video games and dopamine, the study's author says, and I think this is really important:

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What kind of cognitive skills should we expect to find in the Pokémon generation? Not surprisingly, Gee has got a list. “They’re going to think well about systems; they’re going to be good at exploring; they’re going to be good at reconceptualizing their goals based on their experience; they’re not going to judge people’s intelligence just by how fast and efficient they are; and they’re going to think nonlaterally. In our current world with its complex systems that are quite dangerous, those are damn good ways to think.
I think one can absolutely balance a personal distaste for electronics overall and the desire to raise a kid who will be hardwired in a similar way as his/her peers. It's not an all-or-nothing situation.

Doctors aren't out to kill you or your children. Childbirth isn't inherently safe. Science is actually smarter than your intuition. Lighten up. Use sunscreen.

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#39 of 48 Old 10-18-2010, 06:52 PM
 
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People don't get dopamine rushes anywhere near the level of cocaine from video games. I'd think sex would give greater rushes than video games by a large margin. There are reasons to consider whether video games are a good addition to a home, but that seems just silly to me.
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#40 of 48 Old 10-18-2010, 07:16 PM
 
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Food and procreation are 100% essential to the survival of any creature.
It doesn't make sense to compare those to video games or drugs.
I get a dope surge from:

hitting a baseball
making a good catch
making a good jump
getting a laugh at a joke
getting into a dance groove
getting an e-mail from my boss entitled, "We got it!"
managing to get that animation on Power Point straight
being part of a social group where I feel I fit in

None of these are directly related to survival or procreation. They are all indirectly related.

It is normal to get a surge of positive feeling from achieving something, however small.

I suppose it is subjective at this point, whether the amount of dopamine produced is proportionate to the achievement of getting an e-mail or a return comment on a message board or winning a video game.

My personal feeling is that video games are pretty easy to master, and yet have inflated scores, so I do not think it's proportionate, especially since most video game skills cannot be applied except in very specific and often low-paying professions. At the same time I don't think it's realistic to say that it's a real danger to long-term survival.

I shop for food and clothing. I work for money to do said shopping on the Internet... with some distractions. How is that not comparable to other survival activities?

Again, balance, balance, balance.

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I'd think sex would give greater rushes than video games by a large margin.
Haha, that all depends, doesn't it?!?

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#41 of 48 Old 10-18-2010, 08:02 PM
 
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Can I come play at your house?
LOL I believe we may be a few hours apart from each other....otherwise you'd be welcome!!

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#42 of 48 Old 10-18-2010, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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People don't get dopamine rushes anywhere near the level of cocaine from video games. I'd think sex would give greater rushes than video games by a large margin. There are reasons to consider whether video games are a good addition to a home, but that seems just silly to me.
Right, that's why I said this
Quote:
I wonder if video games aren't that bad since your body produces the dopamine from excitement and interest versus a substance consumed. I don't know, but I'm very interested.
As far as the sex goes I agree with Ednamarie
I do have a guaranteed dopamine high from chocolate.
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#43 of 48 Old 10-18-2010, 08:58 PM
 
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Not a reason why YOUR family should buy video games, but a reason that I am glad we did. My DSs have a great deal of trouble making friends. They each have some social issues that, of course, we are constantly working on.

My DD, on the other had, raised by the same parents, is a social butterfly with literally dozens of friends - nurture my ass, but I digress.

We didn't get any gaming systems until three years ago, but once we bought a Wii, it made playdates go so much more smoothly. The boys could play a game with clearly defined rules where the social interaction was proscribed by the game. Two boys, two guitars, they agreed on a Guitar Hero song and started playing. Two boys, two Wii-motes, one Lego Harry Potter game and they were playing together well. It has helped them get over the challenge of figuring out the social norms associated with playing with other kids.

It has helped my DSs, but of course, YMMV, and your DC may not require any assistance in social matters.

Tanya
Mom to John (age 11), James (age 9) & Katherine (age 5)
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#44 of 48 Old 10-19-2010, 12:38 AM
 
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I will just tell you what we are doing.

Back when my kids were all small we did have limited media. As we progressed though the years it became apparent the strong desire by our eldest to use media. I do my best to stear it more to the positve and learning media. With regards to video games. We purchased the Wii system about 3 years ago because it was the most interactive system out then. I do limit what type of games they can have. We are a member of a game exchange (like Netflix). They get a game for a week and we send it back for another one. I also get stuff for me

In truth, I would love to have my kids be with much less media. It just happens to be very productive for my eldest son. We unschool and I encourage him to use what works best for him. The others have just followed the leader. Interesting enough though is that they are not as driven by media. To each their own

Good luck!

Shane - Homeschooling mom to three boys (12, 1-, 8) and living the open life with my husband.

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#45 of 48 Old 10-19-2010, 05:31 PM
 
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First of all, let me say that this is a thoroughly interesting discussion and I loved reading all the responses and different points of view.

If I had to "identify" myself, I guess I would fall into the "video game yes" category, although I hate to be put in a box like that! I grew up playing super mario bros and had a great time with that. My husband bought me the new super mario world for my last birthday and the kids had a blast watching me play and meeting all the characters, which they promptly used in their many, many pretend games. I do believe in a balance, outside time, friend time, reading time, etc. Video games is just *one* of the many things my ds does, not all by any means(dd is not interested).

I do agree with pp who said that it helps some more socially awkward kids (usually boys, in my experience) make friends easier. Don't mean to be cheeky at all, but realistically speaking not all kids live in communities where "playing alone outside with a stick and an acorn" will get you invited to a lot of birthday parties. If we are modeling ourselves after more traditional cultures that we respect, we have to look at some things in context. Yes, there the kids are happy to play outside with sticks and stones, fishing and hunting. Why?? Because there is nothing else for them, and that's what all the kids do, that's how they belong to a group and feel like a part of a larger community. Most of us live in urban centres and not rural tribes and here teaching your child to belong might mean something slightly different.

Just my two cents, I struggle with conflicting ideologies on a regular basis myself.

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#46 of 48 Old 10-19-2010, 05:40 PM
 
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[QUOTE=mom2happy;15938808]
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That is good to know. Sometimes I get dramatic about things. It wouldnt have to be either/ or, especially when there would be time limits.
Gosh- it's like Im seeing technology as something that threatens childhood. I am just too darn sensitive and think I need to loosen up.
First of all I think you've got your head on straight about this. I see no reason you should purposfully add video games to your kids' lives. We are gamers here a bit but they get 30 minutes of game time a day whether it's Wii or computer if homework is done. They really don't watch TV during the week; their choice.

Second, I would say that 50 or 100 years ago, many things probably threw those parents for a loop as far as new technology goes. It may sound silly, but there simply came a time where families just weren't churning their own butter anymore. Something they'd had to do every time since the beginning. Now I don't know if any parents got upset or worried about that, but watching many Mystery Science Theater 3000 Shorts about the "old days" shows that the older generation usually thinks worse of the newer generation laziness-wise.

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#47 of 48 Old 10-19-2010, 05:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by provocativa View Post
can't wait to hear all those 'but i just can't make any milk' whines from women 20 years from now who are plugged into the borg 24/7.
That's a really sad thing to say. I'm glad you think they're whiners. <sarcasm>

I find this fascinating that you're telling us this on a computer message board with sources quoted from Wikipedia....

And I don't want to live in a world without sugar!

And I'll reference myself to say that I'm sure past generations have thought that the new technology, be it the airplane or the ipod was going to ruin the world.

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#48 of 48 Old 10-20-2010, 02:30 AM
 
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We don't have video games either and we have a seven year old. Ds already gets way way too much screen time with the DVDs we get from the library as well as watching our new subscription to basic cable (he watches 10 or more hours a day when we're home all day, which I've tried not to be for that reason).

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