Sexual Curiousity: What is Normal for 5-y-old?! - Page 5 - Mothering Forums
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#121 of 154 Old 12-14-2010, 09:09 AM
 
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You said it perfectly, thanks for that!! Exactly my thoughts.

 

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Originally Posted by D_McG View Post



Quote:
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VisionaryMom, I don't know why this has to degenerate into a criticism of my parenting and how I am not reacting appropriately.  I would never criticize someone else's parenting in that way.  There is nothing helpful about those kinds of comments.

 



I can't speak for VisionaryMom but I agreed with what she wrote.  The things you post about your son are extremely disturbing (I am combining threads in my mind here).  I realize you have him in therapy but I don't know if maybe you're not being honest with them? Or they are just not that good at their jobs?  I am struggling to see why they haven't recommend some serious psychiatric interventions here.    Or if maybe they just feel that this really is a function of the dynamic in the home (I do not think this).  

 

Sometimes I wonder if the trauma he suffered as a child isn't a kind of red herring.  I think you feel guilt over it to a point where maybe it's making you lose some objectivity (and of course, it's hard to be truly objective about our own children).  Even reading back your posts it seems like from birth your son has had issues.  I wonder if it's not time to take the daycare issues completely out of the equation, get a referral to a good child psychiatrist and be honest about every single thing that's going on.  The hours and hours of rages.  The violence.  The sexual things.  Everything.

 

Also, can I ask what kind of therapist he is seeing?  Have you had him evaluated by a psychiatrist? 



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#122 of 154 Old 12-14-2010, 09:13 AM
 
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Regarding the bolded: When I read the posts about your child - and I think that I read all of them - I think that you described worriesome behaviour BEFORE the daycare and break-in issues. What happened is horrible, I do not want to minimize that, but IMO your son had problems BEFORE that.

Quote: Sometimes I wonder if the trauma he suffered as a child isn't a kind of red herring.  I think you feel guilt over it to a point where maybe it's making you lose some objectivity (and of course, it's hard to be truly objective about our own children).  Even reading back your posts it seems like from birth your son has had issues.  I wonder if it's not time to take the daycare issues completely out of the equation, get a referral to a good child psychiatrist and be honest about every single thing that's going on.  The hours and hours of rages.  The violence.  The sexual things.  Everything.

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#123 of 154 Old 12-14-2010, 09:53 AM
 
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Dear OP: I have read through all the posts & replies on this thread.  I am sorry for what your son endured at his daycare, but in regards to your question - I have 2 boys a 4.5 y.o & ~ 2 y.o. and I can honestly say - if I got a nickel for everytime I hear - "touch my butt","touch my butthole", "kiss my butthole", "look at my penis!", "look at <DS2>'s penis!" etc.  I would be a very rich lady at this point in my life.orngbiggrin.gif

 

I have heard his friends & him discuss in whispers they are going to pull down their pants and IMO - your son sounds an awful lot like my boys and we just work on what is appropriate behavior everyday.  For example I will say just because it's funny to him, the other person might not like it/find it funny, or might make them feel yucky. 

 

Good luck and I hope things can work out between you & your friend, her daughter.


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#124 of 154 Old 12-14-2010, 07:57 PM
 
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No matter if each of these incidents would be "normal" in another situation, I read your other thread and I think it is VERY clear that your son has very serious impulse control issues. He is either unable, or unwilling to control his actions. That needs dealt with.

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#125 of 154 Old 12-14-2010, 11:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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No, I don't believe her for several reasons.

 

1) I have seen this girl flat out lie to her mom on many occasions.  These have been instances that had nothing to do with my son but with other people, like an interaction between her daughter and my friend's roommate where my friend's daughter completely lied about what happened, and I witnessed the entire thing.

 

2) After we talked more extensively, it came out that my friend's daughter had extensive problems with sexual looking and touching HERSELF with multiple kids at school, multiple times, over a two year period!  They had to end up involving the principal, school counselors, parents, and a bunch of people and still couldn't get it to stop.  It was a huge problem.  Obviously this girl has had some issues of her own.  Because of this, it seems like she had ample motive to blame this on my son and make her sound like this was all his idea.  She has already been in trouble for this kind of behavior MANY times, more times than my son has been in trouble, and in a more extensive manner.  Also, she is 7, and he is 5.  That's a big age difference at this age!

 

3) When I asked my son specifically about this (asking her to touch his "bottom hole" --- he didn't even know the word "butt hole," which is what my friend's daughter said he said!) he whipped his head around towards me with a completely shocked look on his face and said "EWWWWW!"  He didn't laugh or smile, which is what he would've done if he was even slightly guilty.  He was totally taken aback.

 

I believe my son's version of the story, that he pulled his pants down and asked her to do the same, and that that was the extent of it.
 

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Quote:

 

3) He did not ask someone to kiss his anus!  I am not sure where you are getting that.  He asked my friend's daughter to "touch his butt," but not his anus.  I am 100% sure of that.  


 

 

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 She did say that my son asked her daughter to "touch his butt hole," but when I asked my son about this, he said he only asked her to touch his bottom on the side. 



Do you not believe the little girl?  Or did I miss an update where she retracted her allegation?  (very possible as I'm not 100% up to date on both of your threads). 



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#126 of 154 Old 12-14-2010, 11:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by fairejour View Post

No matter if each of these incidents would be "normal" in another situation, I read your other thread and I think it is VERY clear that your son has very serious impulse control issues. He is either unable, or unwilling to control his actions. That needs dealt with.

 

I don't know exactly what everyone thinks I should do.  My son's team of professionals now includes:

 

1 child psychologist

1 child psychiatrist

1 counselor specializing in EMDR (a trauma therapy)

1 behavioral pediatrician

1 occupational therapist

1 pediatrician

1 acupuncturist

 

I am not sure what else people think I should be doing, and it's disappointing that this always seems to take the "your kid is having problems; attack the mother" tone.  I didn't think that was the point of MDC.  I thought this was supposed to be a supportive environment.  I think saying "This doesn't seem like what my kids are doing" or "I don't think this is normal behavior because of a, b, c" is one thing, but to insinuate that I am not doing anything to help my son or to try to deal with his problems is ridiculous, unfair, and unkind.

 

I have continued to consult people because my son has continued to have problems, and I am treating this in a multitude of ways.  Just because he continues to have behavior problems doesn't mean I am not doing anything about it!  You are very lucky if you have a child that responds immediately to "You must not do that," or to time outs, or to grounding, or whatever methods you use.  My son hasn't responded to any of these methods, and they have all been tried MANY times.

 

Dealing with what I have been dealing with with my son for the past couple of years has been DEVASTATING.  I am doing this alone, working nearly two full time jobs and being a full time parent.  It requires super human energy, patience, and strength.  I haven't had a single date (or hugs or kisses or sex!) in SIX YEARS because every moment is devoted to my son and to work, but mainly to trying to help my son and find solutions for him, yet people who don't even know me (not all of you, but some) continue to insinuate that I am not doing enough, or not doing the right thing, or that somehow I am just doing things all wrong.

 

Seriously, please think about what you are saying before posting.  Just because my son is having problems doesn't mean I am not handling it correctly.  I am spending hundreds of dollars a month on just co-payments for therapies for him, always looking for something new.  SERIOUSLY, what else am I supposed to do?  I think I am doing all that I can and the best that I can, and having to come here and face criticism when I am looking for support is not helpful.  This is my child and my life.  It's not a debate about the latest political topic or something else that's not personal.  I am a real person with real feelings.  I know it can be hard to forget that at times online, but there is still a real person connected to the other end of this. 


 

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#127 of 154 Old 12-14-2010, 11:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Dear OP: I have read through all the posts & replies on this thread.  I am sorry for what your son endured at his daycare, but in regards to your question - I have 2 boys a 4.5 y.o & ~ 2 y.o. and I can honestly say - if I got a nickel for everytime I hear - "touch my butt","touch my butthole", "kiss my butthole", "look at my penis!", "look at <DS2>'s penis!" etc.  I would be a very rich lady at this point in my life.orngbiggrin.gif

 

I have heard his friends & him discuss in whispers they are going to pull down their pants and IMO - your son sounds an awful lot like my boys and we just work on what is appropriate behavior everyday.  For example I will say just because it's funny to him, the other person might not like it/find it funny, or might make them feel yucky. 

 

Good luck and I hope things can work out between you & your friend, her daughter.


Thanks KTG.  The feeling that I am getting is that for some kids, this behavior is very normal, and for other kids, not so much.  Honestly, after reading what everyone has to say, I think my son's behavior is normal when compared to other kids his age.  Am I going to keep a close eye on it?  Yep.  Am I going to continue to tell him not to do this?  Yep.

 

We just got about five books tonight from Amazon about private areas, respecting your body and other people's bodies, and a sort of "sex ed" book for young kids that shows a couple of drawings of boys and girls naked and discusses body parts.  He thought that was completely hilarious, but I let him look at it and ask me questions, and I am hoping this will help dispel some of his curiosity. 

 

I did also talk to the child psychiatrist about this today, and even knowing his history of abuse, she ALSO did NOT find it concerning. 

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#128 of 154 Old 12-15-2010, 12:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by pupsnelda View Post

Regarding the bolded: When I read the posts about your child - and I think that I read all of them - I think that you described worriesome behaviour BEFORE the daycare and break-in issues. What happened is horrible, I do not want to minimize that, but IMO your son had problems BEFORE that.

Quote: Sometimes I wonder if the trauma he suffered as a child isn't a kind of red herring.  I think you feel guilt over it to a point where maybe it's making you lose some objectivity (and of course, it's hard to be truly objective about our own children).  Even reading back your posts it seems like from birth your son has had issues.  I wonder if it's not time to take the daycare issues completely out of the equation, get a referral to a good child psychiatrist and be honest about every single thing that's going on.  The hours and hours of rages.  The violence.  The sexual things.  Everything.

 

My son's issues from a young age have now all been attributed to sensory processing disorder.  He has sensory seeking behavior and also difficulty identifying where his body is in space and being able to gauge how hard/soft he is doing things.  This has all been noted through testing and therapy by his occupational therapist.  When I look back on his earlier years (before 2), that explains all of what he was doing.  I have only recently learned about SPD and didn't know even what it was when I wrote my original posting on my other thread.  I interpreted his behavior as angry and aggressive because it seemed like he was trying to hurt me, but now I know that wasn't it at all.  He would try to slam his body into mine, throwing himself backwards, and he'd often crash his head into my face.  It made no sense at the time because it wasn't in relation to any kind of discipline or "no"; it would just be random, and I couldn't understand why a 12-18 month old would try to hurt me!  But now that I've read about SPD and learning about it from his therapists, it's clear that his actions were SPD and nothing else.

 

I do want to say that I HAVE been "honest about every single thing that's going on."  I have told his psychologist, his occupational therapist, his pediatrician, a counselor who specializes in children and trauma, and now a child psychiatrist.  They know about ALL aspects of everything he's ever done.  They all are saying that this is a result of serious trauma.  I don't think that what happened to him can be taken out of the equation.  I think it's what caused the rage and anger he's had.  He's constantly been shown that the world is an unsafe place, over and over and over.
 

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#129 of 154 Old 12-15-2010, 12:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by D_McG View Post

I realize you have him in therapy but I don't know if maybe you're not being honest with them?



I have been completely and totally honest about EVERYTHING my son has ever said or done.  What would be the point of attending therapy and wasting my limited funds if I was going to do otherwise?  That makes no sense.  The therapists my son has seen know everything about everything!

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#130 of 154 Old 12-15-2010, 12:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D_McG View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisou View Post

 

VisionaryMom, I don't know why this has to degenerate into a criticism of my parenting and how I am not reacting appropriately.  I would never criticize someone else's parenting in that way.  There is nothing helpful about those kinds of comments.

 



I can't speak for VisionaryMom but I agreed with what she wrote.  The things you post about your son are extremely disturbing (I am combining threads in my mind here).  I realize you have him in therapy but I don't know if maybe you're not being honest with them? Or they are just not that good at their jobs?  I am struggling to see why they haven't recommend some serious psychiatric interventions here.    Or if maybe they just feel that this really is a function of the dynamic in the home (I do not think this).  

 

Sometimes I wonder if the trauma he suffered as a child isn't a kind of red herring.  I think you feel guilt over it to a point where maybe it's making you lose some objectivity (and of course, it's hard to be truly objective about our own children).  Even reading back your posts it seems like from birth your son has had issues.  I wonder if it's not time to take the daycare issues completely out of the equation, get a referral to a good child psychiatrist and be honest about every single thing that's going on.  The hours and hours of rages.  The violence.  The sexual things.  Everything.

 

Also, can I ask what kind of therapist he is seeing?  Have you had him evaluated by a psychiatrist? 


I agree
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisou View Post

Quote:

Originally Posted by fairejour View Post

No matter if each of these incidents would be "normal" in another situation, I read your other thread and I think it is VERY clear that your son has very serious impulse control issues. He is either unable, or unwilling to control his actions. That needs dealt with.

 

I don't know exactly what everyone thinks I should do.  My son's team of professionals now includes:

 

1 child psychologist

1 child psychiatrist

1 counselor specializing in EMDR (a trauma therapy)

1 behavioral pediatrician

1 occupational therapist

1 pediatrician

1 acupuncturist

 

I am not sure what else people think I should be doing, and it's disappointing that this always seems to take the "your kid is having problems; attack the mother" tone.  I didn't think that was the point of MDC.  I thought this was supposed to be a supportive environment.  I think saying "This doesn't seem like what my kids are doing" or "I don't think this is normal behavior because of a, b, c" is one thing, but to insinuate that I am not doing anything to help my son or to try to deal with his problems is ridiculous, unfair, and unkind.

 

I have continued to consult people because my son has continued to have problems, and I am treating this in a multitude of ways.  Just because he continues to have behavior problems doesn't mean I am not doing anything about it!  You are very lucky if you have a child that responds immediately to "You must not do that," or to time outs, or to grounding, or whatever methods you use.  My son hasn't responded to any of these methods, and they have all been tried MANY times.

 

Dealing with what I have been dealing with with my son for the past couple of years has been DEVASTATING.  I am doing this alone, working nearly two full time jobs and being a full time parent.  It requires super human energy, patience, and strength.  I haven't had a single date (or hugs or kisses or sex!) in SIX YEARS because every moment is devoted to my son and to work, but mainly to trying to help my son and find solutions for him, yet people who don't even know me (not all of you, but some) continue to insinuate that I am not doing enough, or not doing the right thing, or that somehow I am just doing things all wrong.

 

Seriously, please think about what you are saying before posting.  Just because my son is having problems doesn't mean I am not handling it correctly.  I am spending hundreds of dollars a month on just co-payments for therapies for him, always looking for something new.  SERIOUSLY, what else am I supposed to do?  I think I am doing all that I can and the best that I can, and having to come here and face criticism when I am looking for support is not helpful.  This is my child and my life.  It's not a debate about the latest political topic or something else that's not personal.  I am a real person with real feelings.  I know it can be hard to forget that at times online, but there is still a real person connected to the other end of this. 


 


I'm very sorry you're feeling attacked and I have the utmost respect for all your efforts to get help for your son. It must be exhausting, especially on your own.

I could be remembering incorrectly, but I thought that your DS' father suffered from serious mental illness. If there is a family history, would exploring medication at this point be appropriate? I'm definitely extremely cautious about prescribing drugs to kids! And I, like you, would want to explore as many options or combination of options as possible to deal with the problem before turning to medication. But I've seen in my own family how taking the very idea of drugs for mental health/behavioral issues off the table has led to years of problems that could have been avoided had my sister not been so intent on *not* using medication. Therefore, I wonder if it's not just making your life and your DS' much more difficult to not at least explore some medical options. What does your psychiatrist say?
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#131 of 154 Old 12-15-2010, 12:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm very sorry you're feeling attacked and I have the utmost respect for all your efforts to get help for your son. It must be exhausting, especially on your own.I could be remembering incorrectly, but I thought that your DS' father suffered from serious mental illness. If there is a family history, would exploring medication at this point be appropriate? I'm definitely extremely cautious about prescribing drugs to kids! And I, like you, would want to explore as many options or combination of options as possible to deal with the problem before turning to medication. But I've seen in my own family how taking the very idea of drugs for mental health/behavioral issues off the table has led to years of problems that could have been avoided had my sister not been so intent on *not* using medication. Therefore, I wonder if it's not just making your life and your DS' much more difficult to not at least explore some medical options. What does your psychiatrist say?

 

It's been hard not to feel attacked when some (definitely not all) people have suggested that I don't care about what's going on, that I am not being honest with my son's therapists, that I don't care about my friend's feelings, that my son is "sexually assaulting" people, that I am not trying to get my son help, and various other things.

 

We saw a psychiatrist for the first time today.  He had some serious stuff happening a month ago, and their most "urgent/emergency" appointment was one month away.  Not so helpful.

 

The psychiatrist thinks my son is suffering from PTSD and that the amount of trauma he's faced in his young life has caused him extreme fear and rage because he doesn't know how to handle what's happened in his life.  She also thinks his sensory processing disorder further complicates things.  She did not think the sexual behavior was abnormal, but like my therapist, said I should avoid situations where he can get involved in these behaviors, which I had already determined on my own.

 

She has recommended a medication called Clonidine, which is a blood pressure lowering medication.  I have been extremely hesitant to try medication because he's five and all of these medications can have serious side effects.  She said this one is very benign, but when you see that you're giving your child a medication that can have even a chance of heart failure, to me that's scary.  It's probably less scary than some of the other meds they use for these kinds of problems, but scary nonetheless. 

 

When you Google "Clonidine and children" you come up with quotes like this from a doctor in Australia on an ABC site:  "We’ve seen 24 children who’ve been admitted to hospital with severe side effects of Clonidine… Half of them have ended up in intensive care needing help with ventilation, a tube to help them breathe and also help with their blood pressure and their low pulse rate.  Our finding with Clonidine is that the size of the overdose didn’t determine how sick the child was. Some children who didn’t have very big doses actually got extremely sick and ended up in intensive care whereas there was one child who had a very large overdose and didn’t need to go to intensive care…"

 

This kind of stuff scares the crap out of me. 
 

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#132 of 154 Old 12-15-2010, 12:44 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I should also be clear that these are not people my son has seen in the past.  These are the people my son is CURRENTLY seeing, all at the same time!!!!

 

1 child psychologist

1 child psychiatrist

1 counselor specializing in EMDR (a trauma therapy)

1 behavioral pediatrician

1 occupational therapist

1 pediatrician

1 acupuncturist

 

The EMDR is something we are just starting, and I have great hopes for that.

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#133 of 154 Old 12-15-2010, 01:06 AM
 
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When it comes to the sexual curiosity you were originally posting about, your son sounds pretty typical to me.  I think you are handling everything properly.  I remember similar activities from my own childhood (show me yours, I'll show you mine type stuff), my dh has told me similar stories of his childhood, and my 5 year old nephews have played in similar ways.  

 

Of course it is good to be aware, especially with your son's history, but I honestly don't think you could be doing any more than what you already are.  If someone in my life was going through this I would want to know they were talking with the school, his ped, and getting him therapy... and you are doing all those things.   

 

Just my opinion.  I have a five year old but we have not faced this stuff yet.


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#134 of 154 Old 12-15-2010, 04:44 AM
 
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I am so happy to hear that you finally got to see a psychiatrist and are beginning drug therapy.  I hope this helps your little boy.

 

ETA:  rereading now it's not clear if you're actually going to try it?  


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#135 of 154 Old 12-15-2010, 05:57 AM
 
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Bisou, I just wanted to offer hugs - some of the responses on this thread have been brutal. I've not had to deal with anything like you are dealing with, but I give you all the credit in the world for everything you have tried and are continuing to try.

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#136 of 154 Old 12-15-2010, 10:16 AM
 
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Honestly I still feel like it is beyond the range of normal for a child.  And while being honest, I feel like you are trying to explain it all away.  You never mentioned his other issues in your OP, you are just now mentioning he was diagnosed as SPD.  Some of this information is critical to mention so that we fully understand your child, yet you left it out until just now.  I truly hope he is able to get some form of help and that this doesn't escalate into anything more.  I would give the meds a shot, they can do wonders and you just don't know how your child will react until he takes them.  IMO, after all avenues have been tried, I think it is a good idea to try meds, some people need them to function and that is ok.  I do have a nephew on meds for bipolar disorder and it also has some serious side effects(none experiences luckily) but the difference it makes in that child is amazing.  Hopefully your child will respond well to it.

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#137 of 154 Old 12-15-2010, 10:48 AM
 
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You never mentioned his other issues in your OP, you are just now mentioning he was diagnosed as SPD.  Some of this information is critical to mention so that we fully understand your child, yet you left it out until just now. 

 

Fully understanding this particular child isn't really important for people to answer the question the OP actually asked, which was NOT "Does my kid need help?" or "Did I handle these situations correctly?" or "What should I be doing differently as a parent?"

 

This is what she posted:

 

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So my son has been having some issues with sexual curiosity, and I am not sure exactly if this is normal or not.  I'd like to hear from other parents of kids 4-6 or so, particularly parents with 4-6 yo boys, about what their kids have done at this age.

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#138 of 154 Old 12-15-2010, 01:01 PM
 
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*This post is more about the entire situation with your son, than this thread in particular.*

 

I don't think people are attacking you, but your responses concern some of us. You seem desperate to dismiss his actions and classify them as "normal". Perhaps with another child some of these things could be typical, but at this point, with your child's history and other issues, nothing would be "normal".

 

PTSD could explain some of his behavior, but you said that he was atypically violent BEFORE the abuse. I know that no one WANTS to medicate their child, but you should visit Special Needs Parenting and talk to some of the Mommas there who have children with mental illness. Perhaps you could find some support and advice about the totality of your son's issues.

 

One last note, can you imagine how unhappy it would feel to be inside him? If these are the behaviors he is manifesting, he must just be miserable inside. I know that you really don't want to medicate him, but I myself use medication, as does most of my family. My mother in particular is completely unable to function without her medication, for bipolar. Are there side effects, yeah, but the good far out weighs the bad. To finally be able to experience peace, and have a calm mind is amazing. Someone who has never experienced the chaos of living with a mental illness can never understand what it feels like to finally be ok.

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#139 of 154 Old 12-15-2010, 01:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Owen'nZoe View Post

Bisou, I just wanted to offer hugs - some of the responses on this thread have been brutal. I've not had to deal with anything like you are dealing with, but I give you all the credit in the world for everything you have tried and are continuing to try.



Brutal? I disagree. Some of the responses have been concerned and actually those posters who have read the whole background are worried about the child. In this case you just have to have the complete history, it changes the perspective totally. 

 

 

And I agree with you, the OP has tried very hard and for a very long time. But her refusal to accept the possibility of a mental health issue of her son which needs meds doesn't seem reasonable. There has been suffering for YEARS. Her son has suffered, she has suffered. She has tried many, many different approaches, natural ways, but as fas as I can see it, none has been really effective, slightly effective sometimes, sure. But IMO not enough.

 

 

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#140 of 154 Old 12-15-2010, 06:07 PM
 
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Look, I've gone back and read prior posts about her son. I get that she is dealing with a lot of issues with her son. But I stand by what I said -  the tone of some of the responses has been less than kind. And I understand that a lot of you have been following her story for quite some time and may seem frustrated that they haven't been solved, but really, for those of us who don't know Bisou and her son in person and haven't seen what she is going through and trying day to day, we've seen just the tusk or the tail of the proverbial elephant by reading her posts. To say definitively that her son needs meds or judge that she is or isn't taking the actions she needs to based on what little we've seen of her life is kind of absurd.
 

 

 





Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen'nZoe View Post

Bisou, I just wanted to offer hugs - some of the responses on this thread have been brutal. I've not had to deal with anything like you are dealing with, but I give you all the credit in the world for everything you have tried and are continuing to try.



Brutal? I disagree. Some of the responses have been concerned and actually those posters who have read the whole background are worried about the child. In this case you just have to have the complete history, it changes the perspective totally. 

 

 

And I agree with you, the OP has tried very hard and for a very long time. But her refusal to accept the possibility of a mental health issue of her son which needs meds doesn't seem reasonable. There has been suffering for YEARS. Her son has suffered, she has suffered. She has tried many, many different approaches, natural ways, but as fas as I can see it, none has been really effective, slightly effective sometimes, sure. But IMO not enough.

 

 



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#141 of 154 Old 12-15-2010, 07:06 PM
 
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My son was abused in a daycare, but we don't believe it was molestation.  He was physically abused and physical damage was caused by a female daycare teacher, but it appeared to be intended to hurt him, and DID hurt him.  He had bruises all over the backs of his legs and damage to the skin of his testicles.  It was basically ripped off in multiple places, and the doctor and I both thought it looked like someone pinched and twisted the skin of the testicles.  Horrifying beyond belief. 

 

I suppose you could say it was sexual abuse because it happened in the genital area, and I don't know what really happened because he was two, and obviously I wasn't there, but it seemed more like this person just wanted to hurt my son.

 

I suppose this could cause sexual issues for him, but I don't really think it's related necessarily to what's going on now.  Though who knows.  Since he is not trying to do sexual acts and has never acted out in that way, aside from wanting to show others' his body and see theirs, I just don't think this is related to that.  I would say he suffered physical abuse, not molestation.

 

Also, when that happened, we decided not to talk to him about the abuse unless he brought it up.  He was only two, so the communication was limited.  For a few weeks, he would say "The teacher hurt my penis," and I would say, "I know, honey.  I am so sorry you were hurt.  That was not ok for the teacher to do that to you," and hug him, and talk along those lines.  So aside from the talk about not looking at other kids' private areas, this was not a subject of conversation in our home at all since he was just two.  He's now five.
 

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Originally Posted by mom2happy View Post

If I didnt know that he was molested in daycare I wouldnt think this was so abnormal.

I think because of his past there has probably been much (maybe too much) talk about touching, privates, penisis............

He is curious and not shy. I am SO glad he feels comfortable to tell you what he did and hope he can always trust you with that stuff.

Some kids are sexual by nature, some are drawn to the no-no's. It could be one or the other or both for him.

I have a 5 yr old boy and a 7 yr old girl. Any curiosity about other peoples parts and touching I have always been very quick and non chalant about.

I give it the same reaction that I would for anything that I know is innocent. Besides a few random moonings, I havent encountered anything else.

 

Hopefully this is a short phase. It's really hard for a kid to understand why butts are not to be touched. He is only 5. He is in therapy. You know he is not being sexually abused now.

I wouldnt give this too much attention. I would say calmly before playdates that you expect him to keep his pants on, his friends to keep their pants on, and if anyone's come off- the playdate is over, and have a fun time!

 

If I were that mom I'd still hang out with you, but watch the kids closesly and have a talk with my DD.



Sorry to get back to you after so long.

First let me say how sorry I am that your 2 year old boy had to experience cruelty like that.

 

After knowing the whole story, I really dont think there is anything abnormal here. It could be anything from potty humour, to wanting to check things out, being drawn to it because its so off limits, or the little guy could wind up being a very sexual person. All regular things. Some people are just more physical and curious. He seems like he is just being gross and silly. He is also realizing what a rise it gets, which just might make it more silly and appealing.

I'm also trying to figure out if I missed something in the post. Was he diagnosed with an actual problem?

The thing Im the most worried about right now is the full staff of people  trying to normalize him when he just sounds like a kid that is going through a really annoying behavioral phase that just so happens to do with butts.

He didnt hurt this girl and certainly wasnt trying to violate her. He was doing something that a lot of boys have a problem with- NOT KEEPING HIS HANDS TO HIMSELF. That is what he needs help with and so do plenty of kids.

 

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#142 of 154 Old 12-17-2010, 11:19 AM
 
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No, no, no.  You cannot take daycare out of the equation.  That is a huge part of the equation as it was a huge source of trauma for this child. That cannot be ignored.

 

Bisou--You are right.  You are doing A LOT for your son, and to suggest that his issues from birth are your fault, is wrong.  I think you are really on the right track.  In my mind at least, I just think its important that you are working with a good therapist and some of the things you've said about yours make her sound terrible.  I think also people don't want to hear the sexual stuff being minimized. You absolutely deserve much more credit and support than you've been given though. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by D_McG View Post

  I wonder if it's not time to take the daycare issues completely out of the equation, get a referral to a good child psychiatrist and be honest about every single thing that's going on.

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#143 of 154 Old 12-17-2010, 09:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Owen'nZoe View Post

Bisou, I just wanted to offer hugs - some of the responses on this thread have been brutal. I've not had to deal with anything like you are dealing with, but I give you all the credit in the world for everything you have tried and are continuing to try.

 

Thanks OwennZoe. 

 

Honestly, I have gotten to the point that I feel like I don't want to return to MDC because some people can be so critical.  Some people are really helpful and sincere, and I don't mind people offering their opinions and suggestions, but when it gets into criticism of me and that I am not handling things properly, or maybe that I don't even care or that I am not honest, that's not helpful and is very hurtful.  Honestly, if I didn't care, why would I even take the time to share what's going on? 

 

Anyway, thanks for the kudos.
 

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#144 of 154 Old 12-17-2010, 09:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks Daffodil.  That's exactly what I was getting at.  There's a 23-24 page long thread about my son under Gentle Discipline, which some people had already read, and others read after seeing this thread, and I didn't think that was relevant to this thread.  My main question was simply "What are other kids his age doing in regards to this?"  I don't think his other problems are relevant to this particular question.  I just wanted to see how his behavior fit in regards to what other kids his age are doing.  If other kids his age are doing the same thing, I don't think this makes his behavior abnormal simply because of his background. 

 

From the responses I've received, it sounds like some kids are not doing this kind of behavior and others are, which is normal for most kinds of kid behavior!  (And it's also possible that some parents aren't aware of what their kids are doing because the kids might not have mentioned it!  I know lots of adults talk about this sort of thing going on when they were kids and that no adults ever knew about it.)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffodil View Post


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~cassie View Post

You never mentioned his other issues in your OP, you are just now mentioning he was diagnosed as SPD.  Some of this information is critical to mention so that we fully understand your child, yet you left it out until just now. 

 

Fully understanding this particular child isn't really important for people to answer the question the OP actually asked, which was NOT "Does my kid need help?" or "Did I handle these situations correctly?" or "What should I be doing differently as a parent?"

 

This is what she posted:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisou View Post

So my son has been having some issues with sexual curiosity, and I am not sure exactly if this is normal or not.  I'd like to hear from other parents of kids 4-6 or so, particularly parents with 4-6 yo boys, about what their kids have done at this age.



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#145 of 154 Old 12-17-2010, 10:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you, OwennZoe.  This is exactly how I feel.  People only have a small picture of me and my son, yet they feel qualified to judge whether I am doing things correctly or not without ever having met us.

 

Where is the respect for each parent to parent their child in the way they feel is best?  I wouldn't judge any of you for not vaccinating your child or choosing to give your child medication or not.  Only YOU know your children and live with your children and know what's best for your children.  Who would I be to say what's right for your kids?  I would never presume to make such judgments, even if I read tons of postings about your child and his/her problems.  YOU are the parent, and YOU are the only one who can decide what is right for your child. 

 

One person mentioned that many of her family members are on medication and that it has been helpful.  I have had the OPPOSITE experience with mental health medications, which I had taken in the past for severe depression.  I've had antidepressant medications cause me to be violent (at age 19, which I had never been in the past and haven't been since!), anxious, and suicidal.  I've seen friends and extended family members have hideous reactions to various mental health medications.  I am surprised that for all the anti-vaccination and anti-big pharma attitude that is on MDC that everyone has bought the "Psychiatric medications are WONDERFUL!" message hook, line, and sinker.  It is really frightening. 

 

What finally worked for me and kept my depression away even in the midst of living through the stress of all my son and I have been through is a shift in my mindset that I learned through therapy (cognitive behavioral therapy, EMDR, the positive psychology movement, and dialectical behavioral therapy), and more than anything else, acupuncture.

 

If a medication works for you or your kids, great!  I have never personally seen a psychiatric medicine work for myself or anyone I personally know.  I am sure it works for some people, but since my family tends to be a family who reacts intensely to medications, I approach this with great fear.  I am allergic to many different medications (have had allergic reactions), as have my parents, and we also tend to have extreme and unusual reactions to many medications.  It's different for me trying something because I am an adult and I can clearly verbalize what's going on with me.  My son isn't old enough to verbalize his reactions in the same way. 

 

My son is practically a baby, and giving him something that can alter his brain, and some even argue can cause brain damage, is very scary to me.  One of the medications causes an average of 10-20 pounds of weight gain in 50% of kids who take it, and also causes insulin resistance and metabolic issues, including diabetes.  Others suggested can cause heart failure, psychosis, liver failure, or suicidal thoughts.  Really?  And I shouldn't be at all concerned about giving this to my child?  These are medications that are not even tested on kids in most cases.  I may get to a point that I feel I HAVE to try medication, but I am thinking critically, researching, and weighing all options.  I am not going to just jump on the medication bandwagon without seriously evaluating all of the pros and cons.

 

Sorry if I am getting a little testy, but people have been all over me on MDC for being resistant to give my son meds, and I just don't get it.  Absolutely don't get it.

 

Also, so many people have been convinced that he is seriously mentally ill or bipolar or whatever, yet even the psychiatrist we just saw didn't think so.  She said that he is a "severely traumatized boy" who has been through a lot, and that he's acting out because of that trauma.  She didn't think there was anything that indicated a mental health problem in terms of bipolar disorder or anything like that. 

 

It just irks me that people seem to think that I need a different therapist or different psychiatrist because they don't personally agree with what the therapist (the experts, and those who have in some cases seen my son for a year or more!) has said.  It sounds like people just want me to keep trying another therapist or another psychiatrist until they agree that my son is severely mentally ill. 

 

In any case, this has moved to a discussion of my son's mental health and behavior, and is really getting off the topic of my original post.  This is why I didn't include all this information in my original posting, because I just wanted to have a simple discussion about what other kids my son's age are doing in regards to genital curiosity, looking, showing, etc. 

 

I suppose we've covered that topic in enough detail, and I feel like I have enough information to proceed, though if anyone else has something to share about their experience with their kids exploring (or not exploring) body parts, please do!

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owen'nZoe View Post


Look, I've gone back and read prior posts about her son. I get that she is dealing with a lot of issues with her son. But I stand by what I said -  the tone of some of the responses has been less than kind. And I understand that a lot of you have been following her story for quite some time and may seem frustrated that they haven't been solved, but really, for those of us who don't know Bisou and her son in person and haven't seen what she is going through and trying day to day, we've seen just the tusk or the tail of the proverbial elephant by reading her posts. To say definitively that her son needs meds or judge that she is or isn't taking the actions she needs to based on what little we've seen of her life is kind of absurd.
 

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#146 of 154 Old 12-17-2010, 10:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
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APToddlerMama:

 

In saying there are things I've said about my son's therapist that "makes her sound terrible," are you referring to the peeing the pants incident I talked about in the other thread?  I suppose I am getting us further off track here by continuing to refer to the other thread, but I was just curious.

 

I do feel like perhaps our time with that therapist has come to an end.  My son will be seeing a new therapist who does EMDR (a trauma therapy) on Monday, so perhaps she will end up being more helpful.  I am having to pay for that out of pocket ($120 per session!), so I am not sure how long I can continue.

 

Our therapy benefits through our insurance company (HMO) are very difficult to come by.  Even in the months immediately after the break in when I was just terrified of everything almost 24/7, I could only get in to see a therapist every 1-2 months!  When I said this wasn't enough, they just said it was all they could do, or I could go to a depression and anxiety group, which didn't help at all. 

 

It's the same situation for my son.  We are in a referral outside of our insurance group, and she sees us once per week (or even more if needed).  They are now cutting back on all outside referrals (which would mean my son probably wouldn't get another outside referral), so my son would only be able to see someone probably once a month or so within our HMO.  It's just a joke. 

 

I have asked about getting more regular therapy for myself so many times.  Once my therapist said if I was that desperate for regular therapy, they could hospitalize me!  While I am extremely stressed, I would not classify myself currently as depressed or anxious or anything else.  I just have some extremely stressful life situations.  I was asking to see a therapist once per week or at the least, every other week.  So my option is basically see someone about 6-12 times per YEAR, or be in the hospital.  Seriously?  That didn't even make sense to me.

 

This is why I am very reluctant to change therapists for my son.  It could be that we either stick with his current therapist or he sees someone about 6-12 times per year.  Also, if we asked to change therapists, it's very likely that we would be on a wait list for several months before he could even get in to see anyone, because this is typical at our HMO.  We had to wait an entire month for an urgent psychiatrist appointment. 

 

It might be that we go from having someone who is ok (but not perfect, though a GREAT support to me as a parent!) to having someone we don't like or can hardly see.  My son's current therapist will take calls from me on nights and weekends when I feel like I am in an emergency.  She gives me lots of support about what she thinks I am doing well and gives me strategies for how I could improve things.  I think her relationship with my son is fractured after the peeing incident though.  He's clashed with her nearly every session since that happened, and he never really did that before.  So that makes me really sad.  He always seemed to enjoy seeing her in the past until that happened.

 

Anyway, this is WAY off the topic and should probably be on my GD thread, but just thought I'd explain the therapy part in more detail and why it's not so easy to just "get a different therapist."

 

My mom is helping me pay for the EMDR therapist because there's no way I can afford it, and I don't know how long she can afford it.  That is going to cost at least $480 PER MONTH!  That is a HUGE expense!  I am supporting my son and I on an college adjunct teacher's income (read: not much money, lots of work!).  I do not receive child support from my son's dad, so I am completely on my own as far as finances go.   
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by APToddlerMama View Post



No, no, no.  You cannot take daycare out of the equation.  That is a huge part of the equation as it was a huge source of trauma for this child. That cannot be ignored.

 

Bisou--You are right.  You are doing A LOT for your son, and to suggest that his issues from birth are your fault, is wrong.  I think you are really on the right track.  In my mind at least, I just think its important that you are working with a good therapist and some of the things you've said about yours make her sound terrible.  I think also people don't want to hear the sexual stuff being minimized. You absolutely deserve much more credit and support than you've been given though. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by D_McG View Post

  I wonder if it's not time to take the daycare issues completely out of the equation, get a referral to a good child psychiatrist and be honest about every single thing that's going on.

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#147 of 154 Old 12-18-2010, 12:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I am just thinking. . . . . . .

 

We've been getting a little off the topic of the original thread and the original intent of posting this thread, which was to understand what other kids my son's age are doing in regards to being curious about other people's bodies, particularly "private areas."  I think a lot of people have shared interesting stories about this topic, and it's given me a good range of responses about what other people's kids are doing or not doing.

 

If people feel the need to respond to me about my son, but not directly related to the issue of genital curiosity, it might be more appropriate to post on my other thread.  http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1137864/help-severe-aggressive-defiant-behavior/460

 

However, I am hoping not to continue a debate about meds/no meds, or whether I am not doing the right thing or not.  I would prefer not to have more criticism or critique of what I am doing or not doing, or not doing enough of, or anything along those lines.  That's simply not helpful to me as a person.  It makes me feel defensive, hurt, and judged, and it doesn't provide anything helpful or beneficial.  Criticism makes me not want to return to MDC, to not read or post on these threads anymore.   

 

There have been a lot of mamas who've offered some great suggestions about my son over the year or so that I've posted about my son's behavioral problems.  (My first post on my other thread was September 2009.)  However, there have also been some people who've been critical about how I am responding to my son's issues, particularly those who INSIST that my son needs medication, and some have even gone so far as to suggest that I am abusing/neglecting my son because I haven't medicated him.  While I may reach the point where I decide to try this, I don't think it's the magical cure that some people think it is.  And it's not without possible side effects, and very severe side effects, in some cases!  My family tends to respond with severe reactions to many different kinds of medications.  I am allergic to several different kinds of medications, as is my mother and several other family members.  (My mom was once prescribed the vitamin niacin for high cholesterol.  The first day of taking it, her face swelled up so much she looked like this woman except her face was bright red and her cheeks were more swollen!  I am not kidding!  We had to rush her to the ER.)  I am the kind of person who gets the awful, weird side effect that no one ever gets.  I am very sensitive to medications.  Is it unreasonable to think my son might be the same? 

 

In any case, I think that it's each parent's role to decide what's right for their own children.  I wouldn't criticize any of you for choosing to medicate your children, or feed them meat, or eat a non-organic diet, or not vaccinating because you think it's unsafe (or the reverse), or letting them watch TV, or drink unpasteurized milk, or whatever, and I would like to be given the same respect and consideration.  I think outside of giving our children proper care (food, clothing, shelter, and love) and medical treatment for obvious medical emergencies (your child is having trouble breathing, you call 911!) that most of the rest of it is up for us to decide what's right for our kids.

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#148 of 154 Old 12-19-2010, 10:10 PM
 
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thanks for starting this thread. some of the information shared by you and others has been very helpful.

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#149 of 154 Old 12-19-2010, 11:24 PM
 
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Bisou, I have only read the first and last pages of this thread and I need to go to bed, but I had to respond...I'm really surprised by the comments I'm reading.  Maybe people are so phobic of any sexual talk that they act as if a child obviously needs serious herlp to be curious.  Personally, it sounds relatively normal.  I only have a daughter, but she has a certain level of curiosity herself, and she goes through phases of greater curiosity.  She has never been in day care, never been abused in any way, and we make sure to talk to her about what is appropriate for public and what needs to be kept private.  Anyways, sorry if you are feeling attacked in this thread, kit sounds like you are working hard to do what you think is best

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#150 of 154 Old 12-20-2010, 03:21 AM
 
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Hey Bisou,

 

Just stopping back to tell you about last week...

 

My DDs and i went to see a friend (one who will be visiting any minute today in fact!).  My DD is 4.5 and so is her DS (her DS is being evaluated for ASD just now, but no formal dx yet, just a collection of slightly "off" behaviours).  Her son is VERY into bums right now!  He was pulling down DD1 and his own sister (who is 2)'s pants and shouting "peachy bum peachy bum".  Eventually DD1 got sick of it and yelled at him to stop, and he did, but he continued to do it to his sister until she cried and came to find us (we were listening closely but have a policy of not interfering unless the kids get aggressive or obviously NEED intervention).  We did a bunch of "sorting out" which ranged from telling DS "leave everyone's bums alone now!" and telling his sister "put pants and trousers on if you don't want him looking at your bum!" and my DD1 "tell him you don't want him to if you don't want him to.  There is no need to hit."

 

I was reflecting on this thread on the way home.  For us in that situation the main issue is that her DS has very poor impulse control, even for a 4yo, because he's quite obsessive.  He cannot stop doing one thing until he begins obsessively doing another thing.  But he is a very sweet boy who would never wittingly harm his friend or his sister, and HE gets distressed if they are upset, even as he is still stuck trying to repeat his behaviour.  I have another friend who's sons literally NEVER showed any sexual curiosity and are 10 and 13 now and the eldest is just hitting puberty.

 

So i guess i think what you describe IS in the realms of normal, BUT it's not happening with EVERY child.  I think some of the harshness on this thread is because some people genuinely have never dealt with it and they don't get that it can be normal, just like in other places on MDC people don't "believe" in HN babies (or don't get what they are like), are worried if a baby doesn't poop for 10days (since all THEIR kids go every day and always did), or are freaked out by a ballooning foreskin (because no intact men they no had one ever - i was one of those people BTW and i live in the UK hardly anyone is circ'd here!).  "Normal" needn't be "common" or "frequent".  

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