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#31 of 46 Old 03-18-2011, 10:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BetsyS View Post

 

I never used the bathroom for #2 outside of my house/a grandparent's house until I was working 24 hour shifts (at age 25) and couldn't really hold it that long.  My children only go at home, too.  I guess I just thought everyone held it until they got home.  Hmm... the oddities of my family.  LOL


Not really odd.  We're working on wiping with my 4.5 year old.  He insists he doesn't need to do it himself since he doesn't go at daycare and doesn't plan to go while he's at school.  Same with my 8 year old.  My bathroom's are quite busy when we get home every afternoon.

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#32 of 46 Old 03-18-2011, 11:08 AM
 
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I suppose I would assume that a kid wouldn't ask another adult for help like that?  My oldest just would have a dirty heiny before he would ask for help wiping.  Too intimate for him.  (but he wipes himself just fine, so it's not an issue).

 

I never used the bathroom for #2 outside of my house/a grandparent's house until I was working 24 hour shifts (at age 25) and couldn't really hold it that long.  My children only go at home, too.  I guess I just thought everyone held it until they got home.  Hmm... the oddities of my family.  LOL



Even if they don't ask...that doesn't mean it might not be obvious that help is necessary afterwards...

 

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#33 of 46 Old 03-18-2011, 01:55 PM
 
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So the first thing that popped into my head was, well... they are regressing.  And I do think that's part of it.  They are under a lot of stress with the whole situation with dad.  On one hand they do need to learn to do these skills for themselves, but where do we fit in helping our friends and family?  I don't have an older kid yet.  When my kiddo asks for help it is usually because she is having trouble figuring out how to do it for herself and she is happier in the long run if I sit next to her and explain step by step what she needs to do.  It's really time consuming and takes a lot of patience.  I would imagine that for an older child that approach would be really irritating because they already know how to fasten a button. :D  What you could do is acknowledge the underlying need and ask them if you can find another way to meet it.  Try to cover the bit where what they are asking for makes an awful lot of extra work for you.  You totally think they are worth extra work--that's not up for debate.  But would they rather that extra effort be doing more interesting things?  There is only so much time in the day and if you use up your one-on-one time doing functional stuff you don't get to do other stuff.  They may be in a place where that truly is there need... but if so I doubt it will last long. :)


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#34 of 46 Old 03-18-2011, 01:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by meemee View Post

that was my dd. i think she didnt start wiping herself till she was almost 8. i thought it was because of her perfectionism and didnt want poop touching her fingers. we tried everything - wipes, etc. of course she had a bidet at her dad's place.

 

till i really decided to look at why at almost 8 she still wanted my help. eyesroll.gif save the environment. she was only using a tiny bit of toilet paper because she didnt want to waste paper so of course she would get stuff on her hands. sheesh. so we sat and talked about how we have to choose how to save the environment. and so then she started using more tp and voila - no more issues with bottom wiping. 
 

 


I wonder, though... 2 things.  Why was she 8 before you decided to look at why she still wanted your help?  And secondly, what were you saying to her that made her feel guilty about using an appropriate amount of bathroom tissue to clean herself... that she felt she had to use only small bits of TP?  And if you were doing the wiping for her, did she not notice that you were using a reasonable amount of TP?

 

I think this is an example of how influential we can be without realizing the effect.  In this case, it sounds like environmentalism was over-stressed and the child couldn't figure out what was the "right" way to do something.  I think our words have a lot power and sometimes we say things that become more powerful in a child's mind... and they're not sure whether to ask for help or try it on their own with potential consequences.  It's usually safer to just ask for help than to fail by making a mistake.

 

It seems reasonable to occasionally help children to expedite a task or if you are in the process of teaching, lovingly.  However if a child of 8 is still not wanting to wipe their own bottoms, it seems that something needed to be examined long, long before this. A LONG time ago.  It's much less about the ability and the willingness in these situations.  If they "can", but "won't ever", then that should get some attention, n'est pas?

 

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#35 of 46 Old 03-18-2011, 02:16 PM
 
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FWIW, my Mom raised us to be very independent. She didn't do for us if we could do for ourselves.

I remember once being at a cousin's birthday party. We kids were all swimming in the pool and their Mom brought ice cream and cake to us on plates poolside! We didn't even have to get out of the water to eat. I couldn't believe it. It was such an act of love.gif that I've always remembered.

I try to do a lot of things for DD (age 8) out of love, but I also encourage her to try things for herself. She loves me to help her put on her pajamas when she comes out of the bath. Things like that I really enjoy doing for her because I know that it is an act of love.

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#36 of 46 Old 03-19-2011, 12:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by happysmileylady View Post

I assume that for the 8 yr old needing help wiping, you homeschooled her?  Because as a teacher or teachers aide, I would have been very unhappy that a second grader couldn't wipe properly.


nope. she was in school. she rarely pooped outside both homes (even today) and when she did she stuck TP there till i could get to her. but those were very rare. 

 

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Originally Posted by velochic View Post

I wonder, though... 2 things.  Why was she 8 before you decided to look at why she still wanted your help? 

i dont know. it didnt really matter to me. it was no big deal. she mainly pooped at home. plus with her perfection issue and her icky issues it was much easier to do it myself. it was when she was getting closer to her 8th bday did it strike me 'why isnt she doing this'? i never saw it as an independent issue. i just saw it as her own quirky issue. 

 

And secondly, what were you saying to her that made her feel guilty about using an appropriate amount of bathroom tissue to clean herself... that she felt she had to use only small bits of TP?  And if you were doing the wiping for her, did she not notice that you were using a reasonable amount of TP?

no idea. i cant remember ever talking about TP. i guess she didnt notice how much TP i was using. 

 

however environmental issues are her passion. i think she read up on her own or overheard some of us talking about saving trees or perhaps she watched me as i looked at fine print at the brand of TP i bought. at 5 she used her bday money to buy the book 365 ways to save the earth or change the world or something like that in a children's version. some of it is a no brainer for her. like turning off the tap while brushing teeth. why waste water she says. and she insisted on turning off the water in the shower when you soap yourself. 

 

she is still v. careful about paper, about recycling.. about a lot of things and even about spider webs in our house. right now since she is learning about the uses of pee a few centuries ago she is concerned about the effect of uric acid and ammonia on earth with the amount of population.

 

however also with dd now i dont encourage her to be independent any more. instead i try to make her understand she doesnt have to do everything by herself, but that its okay to ask for help. 
 

 


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#37 of 46 Old 03-19-2011, 02:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by meemee View Post




nope. she was in school. she rarely pooped outside both homes (even today) and when she did she stuck TP there till i could get to her. but those were very rare. 

 

however environmental issues are her passion. i think she read up on her own or overheard some of us talking about saving trees or perhaps she watched me as i looked at fine print at the brand of TP i bought. at 5 she used her bday money to buy the book 365 ways to save the earth or change the world or something like that in a children's version. some of it is a no brainer for her. like turning off the tap while brushing teeth. why waste water she says. and she insisted on turning off the water in the shower when you soap yourself. 

 

she is still v. careful about paper, about recycling.. about a lot of things and even about spider webs in our house. right now since she is learning about the uses of pee a few centuries ago she is concerned about the effect of uric acid and ammonia on earth with the amount of population.

 

however also with dd now i dont encourage her to be independent any more. instead i try to make her understand she doesnt have to do everything by herself, but that its okay to ask for help. 
 

 

It's just that you talk a lot about your daughter being so fiercely independent and then this comes up and it makes one wonder why.  The whole point of the thread is doing for a child what they can do themselves.  Not wiping one's bum at 8 years of age, but being independent... it just doesn't mesh and it makes people (well, me) wonder.  My dd is very much into environmentalism as well, but she is able to temper that with some common sense about using what is necessary to get her behind clean... and has done since she was 4 or 5.  It's a balance and I think that is the important take away here... do for your children, let them be independent, but be AWARE of what is going on.

 

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#38 of 46 Old 03-19-2011, 02:58 PM
 
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It's just that you talk a lot about your daughter being so fiercely independent and then this comes up and it makes one wonder why.  The whole point of the thread is doing for a child what they can do themselves.  Not wiping one's bum at 8 years of age, but being independent... it just doesn't mesh and it makes people (well, me) wonder.  My dd is very much into environmentalism as well, but she is able to temper that with some common sense about using what is necessary to get her behind clean... and has done since she was 4 or 5.  It's a balance and I think that is the important take away here... do for your children, let them be independent, but be AWARE of what is going on.

 


Wow.  I get your point about the overall discussion, but I doubt you actually have enough information to judge the parenting of the child you are writing about.  So, maybe something got overlooked for a while -- I'm sure we've all done that as parents.  Maybe the girl got a strange idea in her head (although being reticent to use too much tp might not be that strange) that she never expressed to her parents.  IDK, seems like you are being pretty harsh here and arguing pretty adamantly about someone else's parenting.  We all are independent and dependent to varying degrees and for different reasons, internal and external.  I'm not sure it's such a huge issue of neglectful parenting.

 

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#39 of 46 Old 03-19-2011, 03:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by velochic 

do for your children, let them be independent, but be AWARE of what is going on.

 

but she WAS independent, just not with wiping her bottom. what's the big deal? perhaps in ur book wiping the bottom of an 8 year old is unacceptable. it is totally acceptable in my books. i mean at least i caught it before she turned 18. 
 

 


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#40 of 46 Old 03-20-2011, 07:24 AM
 
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Wow.  I get your point about the overall discussion, but I doubt you actually have enough information to judge the parenting of the child you are writing about.  So, maybe something got overlooked for a while -- I'm sure we've all done that as parents.  Maybe the girl got a strange idea in her head (although being reticent to use too much tp might not be that strange) that she never expressed to her parents.  IDK, seems like you are being pretty harsh here and arguing pretty adamantly about someone else's parenting.  We all are independent and dependent to varying degrees and for different reasons, internal and external.  I'm not sure it's such a huge issue of neglectful parenting.

 

 

I didn't say anything about neglectful parenting and I don't think it's too harsh.  I think it's a valid point.  My point was that these are the kinds of things that I think the phrase "don't do for your children what they can do for themselves" is meant to address.  I'm scratching my head about this one because meemee, for years now has talked about her daughter being so fiercely independent... how does something like this get overlooked?  It's an honest question.  It's not about judgment, but observation and information.  Sorry you disagree.  I'm thinking not just about this thread, but a long history of discussion, and how it applies to the adage discussed here.
 

 

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#41 of 46 Old 03-20-2011, 08:51 PM
 
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My mom did my laundry until the day I moved out.  Am I incapable?  No, though, I sure wish I was.  :)  My brother brought his laundry home for a couple of years after he moved out; I did mine as soon as I moved out.  My mom LOVES laundry, so she didn't mind doing my brother's. 

 

It didn't seem to harm us as people, but I do appreciate it more and more with the ever-growing amount of laundry I do as a mother.  So, in that regard, it worked out well for her.



 



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Is it really about being rude, though?  Obviously, I don't mean kids should stand in the bathroom peeing on themselves because they can't get their own button undone, but at some point isn't it important to be sure they have the skill for when you can't help?  Or just because getting your own shoes on is important in itself? 

 

I remember babysitting a little girl a LONG time ago - she was five or six. She couldn't get her own swimsuit on and off, couldn't clean herself up after going to the bathroom.  I was really shocked.  I had babysat for a lot of kids her age (I was getting work via word of mouth, mostly the mothers of her class mates) and this was the first time I'd run into one so dependent.  I helped her, of course, but I wondered if she struggled with that stuff at school and if she felt bad about it.  She seemed embarrassed to be asking for help.

 

Lately I feel like we've done for our daughter to the point of her doubting she CAN do for herself and certainly she lacks some of the skills other kids her age have.



Wow.  Great thread.  Great food for thought.  These are many of issues I've battled with lately, too.  I believe my daughter is too baby-ish.  She's whiney and every-other-word out of her mouth is "I can't!"  "But!  I can't!"  When I encourage her to try--try to put her socks on for example--it's followed with nothing but whining and crying and "I can't" for 30 minutes.  The same goes for:  tooth brushing, putting her coat on, getting herself a glass of water, picking up her toys, wiping herself, being afraid to go to the bathroom alone at night (but she'll go in there if she's playing with the cat.  If she's honestly "afraid" of the bathroom at night, she wouldn't go in there for the cat, either), etc.  I can't stand her behavior lately.  She'll be in preschool this fall and she acts like she's 2, completely dependent on adults to cater to her.

 

My girlfriend"s daughter is very independent.  She wipes herself w/o any whining, buckles herself in/out of carseat, opens the car door, dresses herself, etc.  I'm almost embarrassed by my child sometimes.  She's 4.  She's book smart but she's "dumb" when it comes to socializing and self-care.  It took over ONE hour one night to get her to brush her teeth by herself.  One hour of SCREAMING that she can't do it.  I turned off all the house lights and went to sleep.  After that, she quickly brushed her teeth and joined me in bed.  She needs to grow up a little.  It's honestly pathetic as far as I'm concerned.  But she's so damn stubborn I don't know how to push her to do things :(     She can put her coat on/off and dress herself.  She's usually proud to show me what she's done (in which I tell her how proud I am of her, etc).  The next day, she'll tell me "she can't".  Here we go again.....sigh. 

 



 

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#42 of 46 Old 03-20-2011, 09:00 PM
 
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She needs to grow up a little.  It's honestly pathetic as far as I'm concerned.  But she's so damn stubborn I don't know how to push her to do things :(     She can put her coat on/off and dress herself.  She's usually proud to show me what she's done (in which I tell her how proud I am of her

is she like that ALL the time. does she ask or whine for help at certain times or ALL the time with everything.

 

i see this is such a common thing with kids. the timing is very interesting for me. by 4 you as a parent kinda need a break. that is also the time the children are getting more and more aware of their surroundings. esp. 4 is a huge crucial age for that. its that scary thought. hey does the world really not revolve around me? by 5 they discover that in fact IS true. 

 

at that age dd was sometimes super independent. at other times so whiny and babyish. i could tell she was fighting the growing up battle. 


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#43 of 46 Old 03-20-2011, 10:18 PM
 
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When I was raised my mom did EVERYTHING for me. She helped me dress until I was 10, I wasn't aloud to wash my hair on my own until I was 13, never able to cook anything. She would clean my room for me, put away all my clothes etc. When I moved out at 18, I found myself totally lost on how to take care of myself. I could cook anything. My dh who I moved in with at 18 had to teach me everything. Cooking, laundry, proper way to sweep and mop a floor. Iron.

I ask my mom why she never taught me anything while I was growing up. She says that I had an interest in learning things when I was a toddler, but it was just easier for her to do it and for me to go play with my toys instead. By the time she felt I was old enough to be helping her and doing things 'properly', I had totally lost interest in helping and it became impossible to get me to help, so she just continued doing everything.

She looks back on the whole thing as maybe a mistake, but when she interacts with my 5 year old ds, I see old habits of hers showing up. She would spoon feed him until age 3 if I let her, just because she enjoys it and he seems to like it, even though he is perfectly capable of feeding himself. She will help him dress without him asking, and even if he gets mad at her helping she still insists. 

I had an arguement with her about ds wiping his own bum. She can't believe a 5 year old can do a good job wiping his bum, but I tell her that he can and how is he going to practice this skill if it is always done for him.

 

Because of this, I have really encouraged ds to be independent. I ask him to do things for himself and remind him that he IS capable. He is very proud of himself when he can do something for himself. There are certain things everyday that he asks me to do for him. Getting on his socks, shoes and buckling the carseat. I usually suggest that he do it, or tell him I'll do one of them if he does the other, or compromise some other way. I don't turn it into a huge big deal, but I still don't jump to do things for him all the time. I am usually busy dealing with his brother or getting myself ready. When I remind him of that too, he often gets himself ready.

He gets excited about doing new things by himself. If I ask him to get sandwich items ready and make his own sandwich, he just beams with pride :)


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#44 of 46 Old 03-21-2011, 02:46 PM
 
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is she like that ALL the time. does she ask or whine for help at certain times or ALL the time with everything.

 

i see this is such a common thing with kids. the timing is very interesting for me. by 4 you as a parent kinda need a break. that is also the time the children are getting more and more aware of their surroundings. esp. 4 is a huge crucial age for that. its that scary thought. hey does the world really not revolve around me? by 5 they discover that in fact IS true. 

 

at that age dd was sometimes super independent. at other times so whiny and babyish. i could tell she was fighting the growing up battle. 



8/10 times it's whining and "I can't."  The main problem, as far as I can see, is that I'm the only adult in her life encouraging her to grow up.  I'm a single mom.  When I'm at work her father or the grandma's watch dear spoiled child.  EVERYONE except me baby's her.  Her dad lets her boss him around--"You carry me daddy!"...and he does.  "I don't want to put my coat on, grandma.  You do it!"...and she does.  Mama is the only one who puts her foot down.  I am THE bitch in her life.  Maybe I'm too hard on her.  But my nerves are wearing down fast.  So fast that I think I'd rather my spoiled brat daughter stay gone for the rest of the week.  I woke up to an empty, quiet house today.  Nobody to wait on hand and foot.  No whining.  No fighting to get things done.  I enjoyed it way more than I probably should have?  lol and i want my peace and quiet a little longer.  I'm thinking that if I let spoiled child's father and/or grandma's take care of her for a week or better, they just might begin to understand where I'm coming from and HELP me.  Maybe.  Maybe it will bite me in the rear and dear spoiled child will come back home even worse.  I just don't know. 

 

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#45 of 46 Old 03-21-2011, 04:40 PM
 
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hug2.gif  You need to get a break and do some self care.  What makes you feel relaxed and safe?  Can you find some time to do that while your dd is somewhere else.

 

Is there someone you can talk to to help you feel better?  Coffee with a friend?

 

Once you feel better and calmer, can you talk to your dd's dad and the grandma(s?) about how important you think it is to encourage your dd to try to do things for herself?

 

Try to focus on giving her good attention and encouraging her to try things for herself and ask politely when she wants help.  Remember she is still just a little girl, and her brain, body, and emotional self are not developed yet.  She is growing and learning at a rapid rate, and it is hard for her (and for you!).

 

Be gentle with yourself and with your dd.  I am REALLY struggling with my 4yo too (see my recent thread) so I know where you are coming from.  Just hang in there and work toward being the kind of parent and person you want to be.

 

Forgive your dd and forgive yourself.

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#46 of 46 Old 03-26-2011, 10:40 PM
 
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I am responding without reading the replies yet but I just read something that I think might help here.

 

There was this man visiting his friend and she was in her 14 yo's room, putting away his clothes. The man asks the mother what she is doing. Which she responds, cleaning up of course. Then he asks her again. Then he says finally that he feels sorry for her sons future wife.

 

This story stuck with me because that is exactly how my MIL treats my DH and her other children. If they are physically capable of cleaning up after themselves, they should do it.

 

I will say that my 4.5 yo is great with clean up time, but my 3 yo definitely needs to learn these behaviors. At 5 kids are physically able to dress, brush their teeth, clean up, put their dishes away....

 

Some days are just easier than others. If they can't do something of course help them, but if these behaviors were to continue until they were older like 10ish? I would be concerned.

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