Obedience from 3 y/o? - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 37 Old 02-13-2012, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
allisonrose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NoVa
Posts: 1,993
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)

Hubby defines a "good child" as an obedient child. I try and try to convince him otherwise but have been unsuccessful. Our 3 y/o is on the spirited side and rather high energy. When our 3 y/o "defies" dh, he feels like ds1 is being "bad". I think it is unreasonable to always expect such a young child to put aside what he would prefer to do to do what an adult is asking him to do. DH feels that our son is "disrespectful" to him because ds1 does not always do what dh asks of him.

 

How much obedience is reasonable to expect from a 3 y/o?


Mama to Blake, 5, and Grant, 3
ribbonpb.gif
allisonrose is offline  
#2 of 37 Old 02-13-2012, 08:44 AM
 
Tjej's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: a beautiful place
Posts: 1,580
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I think respect is a two-way street.  It probably is true that your DS is being disrespectful.  It means he needs to learn how to treat your DH with respect.  Your DH also probably isn't being as patient or calm as he could be to make it easy for your DS to obey him. 

 

I tend to expect a lot of young kids and they generally live up to the expectations.  I think a 3yo can be respectful.  Not perfectly, not all the time, and they will need to be reminded of how to be polite and kind.  I tend to give a polite script to replace a disrespectful one. 

 

HTH

 

Tjej

Tjej is offline  
#3 of 37 Old 02-13-2012, 08:57 AM
 
keeptryst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: in the light
Posts: 248
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Interesting insights regarding this topic in this article: http://www.waldorflibrary.org/Journal_Articles/bidding.pdf

keeptryst is offline  
#4 of 37 Old 02-13-2012, 02:04 PM
 
transylvania_mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: abroad
Posts: 1,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Does your dh consider obedience as an adult virtue as well? Does he want ds to be an obedient adult?


caffix.gif

transylvania_mom is offline  
#5 of 37 Old 02-13-2012, 02:37 PM
 
EarthRootsStarSoul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 822
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by transylvania_mom View Post

Does your dh consider obedience as an adult virtue as well? Does he want ds to be an obedient adult?


 

Good questions.  This is a topic that needs discussion in the parenting community.  Are old-fashioned ideas of obedience really good for kids?  Is obedience really how the world works now?  I should say not. 

 

My kids are very self-motivated and I LOVE it!  They are always working on new projects.  They get an idea and they want to go for it, and I'm just like HELL YEAH!  Here are some supplies/ books/ whatever. 

 

You could say a child is ignoring you, or you could say the child has his own agenda for how he spends his time.  And the thing is, what the child wants to do often IS more interesting and developmentally appropriate than what the adult wants.  (within reason) 


bellyhair.giftreehugger.gif     coolshine.gif      greenthumb.gif     read.gif
EarthRootsStarSoul is online now  
#6 of 37 Old 02-13-2012, 07:56 PM
 
keeptryst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: in the light
Posts: 248
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
keeptryst is offline  
#7 of 37 Old 02-14-2012, 08:07 AM
 
SweetSilver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Westfarthing
Posts: 4,987
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)

3yo is pretty young to "expect" obedience.  It's nothing personal to your dh.  The boy is not actively disrespecting him, he is just still impulsive and being himself.  Parents with no older children tend to expect more out of their oldest simply because they don't realize that 3yo is just past babyhood.  My girls are 5 and 7 now and I read this post and think "Really?"  But 4 years ago I also was expecting more good behavior out of my 3yo than she was ready for (and probably expecting too much from her as a 7yo).

 

 

I understand the desire for obedience fundamentally.  Obedience helps keeps kids safe on a primal level.  Obedience can also help maintain a hierarchy, which many parents feel keeps them from feeling like the cart horse that the child holds the reins to.  This, I think though, is not the only way to keep from feeling like the kids "rule".  In my home I think it is important for the girls to know that I can change my mind.  I like them to learn the art of negotiation, that things can be agreed upon by all and that everyone is respected.  But there are times when I am the one to put my foot down.  I can be a hard ass sometimes.  Mostly, though, I try to create a dialog with my girls about my expectations and how what they do can fit into that, or perhaps changing what those expectations are.  We try our best to treat each other with respect.

 

But this is a lot of talk to a high spirited 3yo.  You can't necessarily have a conversation while he's flying from the couch to the chair and back again.  But it is something that can begin to happen, as long as it is a long term goal and not immediate.  

 

Showing respect is a good habit, but I will say that while you can demand obedience, you cannot demand respect.  A basic respect, perhaps, but only a respect of tolerance, not a respect with admiration and love.  Many a child has grown up being perfectly obedient and absolutely hating that person.  If that is what a parent means by "respect", then that's a pretty poor definition.

 

This is kind of a rambly post, the cogs in my brain chugging along even as I write.  But I hope you can understand.


Give me a few minutes while I caffeinate.
SweetSilver is offline  
#8 of 37 Old 02-14-2012, 08:40 AM
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Cover letter he!!
Posts: 6,548
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I too have a very spirited 3yo. I love him, he's wonderful, but he tries my patience daily. Asking doesn't work, telling doesn't work.

 

What DOES work (sometimes) is to ask for his "big boy" help with some big monumental (to a 3yo) task. It's his job to feed our kitty, so when I notice our kitty needs some more food in his dish, I say to my ds, "DS - Kitty needs some food! Can you be my big boy helper and help me feed the kitty?" in a very cheery voice. Then I get out the food bag (he's 3, he needs help to do his "chores" - so age appropriate expectations are a must), and let him scoop some kitty food into the dish. 

 

Or, I'll ask if he can help me take out the garbage (carry it for me - he can't reach so I go with him and carry a bag, and have him carry the littler bag). Of I have him help set the table - he takes the silverware, and sometimes the plates to the table while I carry the food. Asking him for help makes him feel needed and like he's really doing something to help out. When he feels like he's helping, he's less likely to misbehave.

 

Terrible twos? Ha. Terrible THREE's is more like it.

 

My ds is great, he's not "bad" - but man its frustrating when I'm riding the train home with him and he's fighting with me over each and every little thing the whole way! Thankfully that doesn't happen very much, but its still not fun.

Super~Single~Mama is offline  
#9 of 37 Old 02-14-2012, 12:41 PM
 
Halfasianmomma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montreal
Posts: 3,732
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

This is a regular issue in my household (I live with my parents) because my father, who is from a culture where respect for the elders is very important, constantly asks my DD why she "doesn't listen". Uh, cause she's 3. And VERY headstrong. Consequently, I EXPECT her to fight me on every.single.bloody.thing. Obedience doesn't even come into play here.

 

I've been reading up on this sort of thing a lot and have found that giving DD two choices, both of which I am comfortable with, works better than telling her "do x NOW", because that's guaranteed to cause a reaction. Whenever DD opposes anything (i.e. Me: "Dinner time!" , DD: "I don't wannaaaaa!", or Me: "Bath time!", DD: "LATER!!!"), or acts out (i.e. Me: "Please don't play with the dishwasher buttons", DD...looks at me and pushes the buttons), I try to remind myself that emotional and impulse control are very low at her age. I think that once I changed my expectations for DD, I wasn't as shocked that she was fighting me on everything.

 

Recently, I implemented a new strategy that seems to work very well. Whenever she tantrums, I calmly tell her that I love her but don't like it when she acts that way, and I leave the area, telling her that when she's done crying, she can come see me for a hug. Sometimes she'll tantrum for a long time, by herself in another room, but more and more she calms herself down, and comes to me sniffling.  

 

I've also used the "big kid" strategy SSM mentioned in her post...DD enjoys dressing herself WAY more than being wrangled to the floor and being FORCED to get dressed. Working on making her more independent has reduced the number of tantrums she has...but obviously, it hasn't eliminated them all!

Halfasianmomma is offline  
#10 of 37 Old 02-16-2012, 05:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
allisonrose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NoVa
Posts: 1,993
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)

Okay, a bit of clarification: as far as I know the disrespect is because he is disobedient.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by transylvania_mom View Post

Does your dh consider obedience as an adult virtue as well? Does he want ds to be an obedient adult?



That is a good question. My hubby is a former Army Officer so it is likely that he does view obedience as a good trait since the Army demands obedience from nearly every member since there's nearly always someone above you in rank.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjej View Post

I think respect is a two-way street.  It probably is true that your DS is being disrespectful.  It means he needs to learn how to treat your DH with respect.  Your DH also probably isn't being as patient or calm as he could be to make it easy for your DS to obey him. 

 

I tend to expect a lot of young kids and they generally live up to the expectations.  I think a 3yo can be respectful.  Not perfectly, not all the time, and they will need to be reminded of how to be polite and kind.  I tend to give a polite script to replace a disrespectful one. 

 

HTH

 

Tjej



 Any advice on how to get children to live up to hig expectations?



Quote:
Originally Posted by keeptryst View Post

Interesting insights regarding this topic in this article: http://www.waldorflibrary.org/Journal_Articles/bidding.pdf



Wow, that is interesting. 



Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetSilver View Post

3yo is pretty young to "expect" obedience.  It's nothing personal to your dh.  The boy is not actively disrespecting him, he is just still impulsive and being himself.  Parents with no older children tend to expect more out of their oldest simply because they don't realize that 3yo is just past babyhood.  My girls are 5 and 7 now and I read this post and think "Really?"  But 4 years ago I also was expecting more good behavior out of my 3yo than she was ready for (and probably expecting too much from her as a 7yo).

 

 

I understand the desire for obedience fundamentally.  Obedience helps keeps kids safe on a primal level.  Obedience can also help maintain a hierarchy, which many parents feel keeps them from feeling like the cart horse that the child holds the reins to.  This, I think though, is not the only way to keep from feeling like the kids "rule".  In my home I think it is important for the girls to know that I can change my mind.  I like them to learn the art of negotiation, that things can be agreed upon by all and that everyone is respected.  But there are times when I am the one to put my foot down.  I can be a hard ass sometimes.  Mostly, though, I try to create a dialog with my girls about my expectations and how what they do can fit into that, or perhaps changing what those expectations are.  We try our best to treat each other with respect. 


Two excellent points. I definitely have a different view of ds2 (1 year old) than I did of ds1 at the same age. Yes, I think part of this issue is who is in charge.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post

I too have a very spirited 3yo. I love him, he's wonderful, but he tries my patience daily. Asking doesn't work, telling doesn't work.

 

My ds is great, he's not "bad" - but man its frustrating when I'm riding the train home with him and he's fighting with me over each and every little thing the whole way! Thankfully that doesn't happen very much, but its still not fun.


Thanks. It's nice to know I'm not alone.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halfasianmomma View Post

This is a regular issue in my household (I live with my parents) because my father, who is from a culture where respect for the elders is very important, constantly asks my DD why she "doesn't listen". Uh, cause she's 3. And VERY headstrong. Consequently, I EXPECT her to fight me on every.single.bloody.thing. Obedience doesn't even come into play here.

 

I've been reading up on this sort of thing a lot and have found that giving DD two choices, both of which I am comfortable with, works better than telling her "do x NOW", because that's guaranteed to cause a reaction. Whenever DD opposes anything (i.e. Me: "Dinner time!" , DD: "I don't wannaaaaa!", or Me: "Bath time!", DD: "LATER!!!"), or acts out (i.e. Me: "Please don't play with the dishwasher buttons", DD...looks at me and pushes the buttons), I try to remind myself that emotional and impulse control are very low at her age. I think that once I changed my expectations for DD, I wasn't as shocked that she was fighting me on everything. 

 

Yes, my hubby is also from a culture where respect for elders is paramount (Hispanic). He likes to talk about how his parents or aunts/uncles never would have tolerated such behavior from a child. Recently he said that he might be a bit jealous that our son doesn't get a beating for such behavior like he would have. Yet he also has said he thought we would raise our kids the way he was raised. (Okay getting a bit off track.)

I do choices as well: do you want to wear this shirt or this shirt? Lay in mommy bed or your bed? I mentioned that to hubby but I don't think he's given it a try yet.


Mama to Blake, 5, and Grant, 3
ribbonpb.gif
allisonrose is offline  
#11 of 37 Old 02-16-2012, 06:48 AM
 
nextcommercial's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,589
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I also expect obedience from children.  I rarely have to deal with defiance.  

 

But, I make my requests reasonable, often they are actual choices, and rarely does it need to be obeyed immediately.  (When it's immediate, they know it and do it)

 

I say what I mean, and I mean what I say.  I am in charge, and they will do as I say.  But, that doesn't mean I don't expect occasional mistakes.  Kids can be too wound up to listen... If I try to yell over their play and expect obedience, I'm going to be frustrated because I'm doing it wrong... I need to settle them down, then tell them when I have their attention.

 

If it's "Go empty the dishwasher", I don't mean "THIS second"... But, it needs to be done, so the kids can finish what they are doing, then empty the dishwasher.  

 

But, if I say "STOP"... they all stop instantly.  "stop" is non negotioable, "walk" is non negotiable.  I don't say something ambiguous like "Slow down" because that's not clear enough.  If I say "Stop at that blue pole", they'd better all stop at that blue pole, or we are all done playing that game, and will go home.  I don't give warnings, or second chances on these things.  I have six kids here, and I need them to obey first, discuss later. 

 

I only bark orders when it's important.  The rest of the time is meant for fun and being kids.  

nextcommercial is offline  
#12 of 37 Old 02-16-2012, 08:06 AM
 
SweetSilver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Westfarthing
Posts: 4,987
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post

 

I only bark orders when it's important.  The rest of the time is meant for fun and being kids.  


This is important.  allisonrose, does your dh tend to give orders a lot?  For relatively trivial things?  Sometimes kids learn to drown the parents out if orders come out every minute.  In fact, it can make some kids even more manic and crazy for some reason.  It is important that if we expect obedience that we are very careful to not expect them to walk in lock step all the time.  Kids should be allowed to be kids.  

 

If he is being too loud and rambunctious, instead of making the behavior stop he can be relocated.  "We are here and your voice hurts our ears.  Take your  shouts into the bedroom or outside."  This makes him aware of how his behavior affects others but also doesn't convey the idea that he might be a bad person for acting the way he does.  He should not be expected to act like an adult.

 

It also sounds like your dh is wanting help finding ways to get what he wants without the physical punishment he had as a kid.  I think it is very generous of him to honor "no spanking" etc. but if you just take away the rule and don't help change the tools he has available to him then that leaves him feeling lost and frustrated.  It is unreasonable to expect a child to behave like an adult, but it is not unreasonable to want a certain level of calmness, where adults can feel like they are not living inside a bouncy house with screaming children (for example).  And it is reasonable to not want to feel like a doormat.  

 

It is also unreasonable to think that a 3yo will figure out what is expected of him, just having been told once or twice or sometimes even a hundred times.  Impulse control is extremely hard.  

 

I like the analogy of the carthorse.  The child is in the driver's seat of the cart, holding the reins to the horse.  Where is the parent? The parent shouldn't be in the position of the horse, but sitting alongside the child helping him handle the horse and negotiate the road.  Sometimes the lesson to be learned is how kids can fit in around adults, but hopefully not at the expense of being aloud to be a kid.

 


Give me a few minutes while I caffeinate.
SweetSilver is offline  
#13 of 37 Old 02-16-2012, 10:28 AM
 
Halfasianmomma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montreal
Posts: 3,732
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Oh, also something that popped up in my head: advance warning.

 

My DD sucks at dealing with sudden changes. Considering this, I give advance warning so that there is less drama. If today is a wash your hair day, then I mention it as soon as I get home from work, and a few times again before dinner, so that she knows way in advance. She also gets to choose if we do it before dinner or after. Also, she has started doing a lot of things herself, like dressing herself, brushing teeth and hair herself and rinsing the shampoo suds herself...all that stuff makes everything so much easier because she feels she is in control.

 

Recently, I've implemented the following strategy for when we go out, like a friend's place for dinner. Before we leave, I tell her what I expect of her in terms of behaviour (no tantrums or whining, and polite requests), and that if she doesn't behave, I won't hesitate to drop everything and go home. So far, I haven't had an issue.

 

 

Halfasianmomma is offline  
#14 of 37 Old 02-16-2012, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
allisonrose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NoVa
Posts: 1,993
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post

I also expect obedience from children.  I rarely have to deal with defiance.  

 

But, I make my requests reasonable, often they are actual choices, and rarely does it need to be obeyed immediately.  (When it's immediate, they know it and do it)

 

I say what I mean, and I mean what I say.  I am in charge, and they will do as I say.  But, that doesn't mean I don't expect occasional mistakes.  Kids can be too wound up to listen... If I try to yell over their play and expect obedience, I'm going to be frustrated because I'm doing it wrong... I need to settle them down, then tell them when I have their attention.

 

If it's "Go empty the dishwasher", I don't mean "THIS second"... But, it needs to be done, so the kids can finish what they are doing, then empty the dishwasher.  

 

But, if I say "STOP"... they all stop instantly.  "stop" is non negotioable, "walk" is non negotiable.  I don't say something ambiguous like "Slow down" because that's not clear enough.  If I say "Stop at that blue pole", they'd better all stop at that blue pole, or we are all done playing that game, and will go home.  I don't give warnings, or second chances on these things.  I have six kids here, and I need them to obey first, discuss later. 

 

I only bark orders when it's important.  The rest of the time is meant for fun and being kids.  



 Okay maybe this is a silly question but why do they listen and obey? I'm sure some of your children are older than 3 but I am wondering what you have found works with this age group.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by SweetSilver View Post


This is important.  allisonrose, does your dh tend to give orders a lot?  For relatively trivial things?  Sometimes kids learn to drown the parents out if orders come out every minute.  In fact, it can make some kids even more manic and crazy for some reason.  It is important that if we expect obedience that we are very careful to not expect them to walk in lock step all the time.  Kids should be allowed to be kids.  

 

If he is being too loud and rambunctious, instead of making the behavior stop he can be relocated.  "We are here and your voice hurts our ears.  Take your  shouts into the bedroom or outside."  This makes him aware of how his behavior affects others but also doesn't convey the idea that he might be a bad person for acting the way he does.  He should not be expected to act like an adult.

 

It also sounds like your dh is wanting help finding ways to get what he wants without the physical punishment he had as a kid.  I think it is very generous of him to honor "no spanking" etc. but if you just take away the rule and don't help change the tools he has available to him then that leaves him feeling lost and frustrated.  It is unreasonable to expect a child to behave like an adult, but it is not unreasonable to want a certain level of calmness, where adults can feel like they are not living inside a bouncy house with screaming children (for example).  And it is reasonable to not want to feel like a doormat.  


Yes, my hubby does tend to bark orders.

If ds1 is too ranbunctious, my hubby tends to just turn on the TV for him. My hubby would like him to be calm all the time. So he puts the TV on for him a lot because he'll sit and watch.

He doesn't honor a no spanking policy. The household policy is more along the lines of "don't ask, don't tell". I give suggestions to my hubby but I don't know if he takes them. He doesn't want to read books. He occasionally talks to other dads who tell him that their wives basically did everything child-rearing wise. (He works with a lot of retired career military guys - military wives often end up carrying the household since their hubbies are called away so much.) He admits he doesn't think spanking will work with our son for some things. Then says he doesn't know what to do. I want to give him tools but he is unsure how to use anything except negativity. And frankly I'm still figuring out a lot as a parent, myself.


Mama to Blake, 5, and Grant, 3
ribbonpb.gif
allisonrose is offline  
#15 of 37 Old 02-16-2012, 11:25 AM
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Cover letter he!!
Posts: 6,548
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post

I also expect obedience from children.  I rarely have to deal with defiance.  

 

But, I make my requests reasonable, often they are actual choices, and rarely does it need to be obeyed immediately.  (When it's immediate, they know it and do it)

 

I say what I mean, and I mean what I say.  I am in charge, and they will do as I say.  But, that doesn't mean I don't expect occasional mistakes.  Kids can be too wound up to listen... If I try to yell over their play and expect obedience, I'm going to be frustrated because I'm doing it wrong... I need to settle them down, then tell them when I have their attention.

 

If it's "Go empty the dishwasher", I don't mean "THIS second"... But, it needs to be done, so the kids can finish what they are doing, then empty the dishwasher.  

 

But, if I say "STOP"... they all stop instantly.  "stop" is non negotioable, "walk" is non negotiable.  I don't say something ambiguous like "Slow down" because that's not clear enough.  If I say "Stop at that blue pole", they'd better all stop at that blue pole, or we are all done playing that game, and will go home.  I don't give warnings, or second chances on these things.  I have six kids here, and I need them to obey first, discuss later. 

 

I only bark orders when it's important.  The rest of the time is meant for fun and being kids.  


Are your children spirited? My DS is persistent (on a scale of 1-5 he's about a 10), intense (about a 7-8 on the same scale), sensitive (about a 4-5), does not transition well, even with advance warning, and tests boundaries CONSTANTLY (I'm sure he'll be a great adult, and all of these are qualities that I want to nurture - but I'd also like for him to not scream at me for what seems like hours sometimes). I'm sure at least a little of this is because he is back and forth a bit, and most of his time with me is very structured (won't always be like this, but our visitation schedule can't be changed for a while - it sucks but there isn't anything I can do about it).

 

I wish there was some way that I could work with his personality a little better, but its a struggle. You say that you have to settle them down before getting them to listen - what techniques do you use? How do you settle them down?

 

I'm starting to think I just suck at parenting this age. I can't get ds to cooperate with me at all some of the time, and I think the rest of the time is just luck.

 

 

 

Super~Single~Mama is offline  
#16 of 37 Old 02-16-2012, 01:49 PM
 
nextcommercial's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,589
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by allisonrose View Post



 



 Okay maybe this is a silly question but why do they listen and obey? I'm sure some of your children are older than 3 but I am wondering what you have found works with this age group.

 

 

It's really just experience.  I've been doing this for so long, had so much training, that I know what works and what doesn't.  I know that saying "walk.... Okaaaaaaay?" really means "I have no backbone, and you shouldn't listen to me"    I have a Mom voice and a teacher voice, and I know how to use them.  I NEVER have to use time out.   They just happily work together, or pick up the slack for one who isn't cooperating.  No kid is perfect all the time, but they are always willing to help each other.  

 

Plus, since I don't need obedience very often, they know when I do need it, and they are willing to do whatever I ask, because I don't overuse the "now" voice.

 

 

Tjej likes this.
nextcommercial is offline  
#17 of 37 Old 02-16-2012, 01:55 PM
 
nextcommercial's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,589
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post


Are your children spirited? My DS is persistent (on a scale of 1-5 he's about a 10), intense (about a 7-8 on the same scale), sensitive (about a 4-5), does not transition well, even with advance warning, and tests boundaries CONSTANTLY (I'm sure he'll be a great adult, and all of these are qualities that I want to nurture - but I'd also like for him to not scream at me for what seems like hours sometimes). I'm sure at least a little of this is because he is back and forth a bit, and most of his time with me is very structured (won't always be like this, but our visitation schedule can't be changed for a while - it sucks but there isn't anything I can do about it).

 

I wish there was some way that I could work with his personality a little better, but its a struggle. You say that you have to settle them down before getting them to listen - what techniques do you use? How do you settle them down?

 

I'm starting to think I just suck at parenting this age. I can't get ds to cooperate with me at all some of the time, and I think the rest of the time is just luck.

 

 

 


Well, it's a group of kids.... no matter what anybody tells you, it's MUCH easier to have four or more kids than to have one.    It's not that you are doing it wrong, but it's just easier for me, because they have peer pressure.  You have one kid who can throw a wrench into all of your plans with one little tantrum.    My daughter didn't have many tantrums at that age, but at age six... Holy Cow.  And, socks????  Our lives revolved around her stupid sock issues.  I can't even tell you how many times we were late for something JUST because of socks.

 

nextcommercial is offline  
#18 of 37 Old 02-16-2012, 11:08 PM
 
LynnS6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Pacific NW longing for the Midwest
Posts: 12,570
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

It might help for your husband to distinguish 'obedience' from 'respect'.

 

I don't want my kids to be blindly obedient, but I do want them to be respectful even if they disagree. It's also easier to ask for obedience when it really matters if there's a basis of respect already. If my kids know that I won't ask them to drop everything they're doing unless it's urgent, they're more likely to respond quickly when I ask.

 

The problem is that at 3, kids haven't yet learned the language skills to be respectful while they disagree, and sometimes they'd really rather not do what you ask. Learning to express yourself politely and learning to put aside your own desires are skills that take time to develop. Years, in fact. I expect my kids to make mistakes when learning these things. At the same time, I expect age appropriate effort to working on the skills. And, there are some things that they simply cannot do (whack your brother, throw blocks at the windows, scream in my face).

 

Reading between the lines, I wonder if there are behaviors that you and your husband disagree about. You should be on the same page about what behaviors don't belong in your family, and it may take some negotiation. When you say that your dh is expecting your son to "put aside what he wants to do" and do what an adult asks, what do you mean ? I think it's reasonable for a 3 year old to be upset if you ask him to stop playing and get ready for bed, without having given him any warning. My kids both did much much better with more warning. I'd do the 5-3-1 minute reminders, or I'd give a warning and set the kitchen timer, saying "when the timer beeps, it's pajama time". I think the warning is simple respect on your part. I'd hate to be interrupted posting on MDC and told to do something now (and in fact, I've been known to get cranky with my kids when they've made such demands)

 

If it's rule-breaking or doing something annoying however, I don't think a 3 year old's desire to do something trumps an adult's request to stop. The question then is how you're asking him to stop. Are you saying "don't do that"? Are you saying "Stop! sit down." The second one will get much more compliance because you're clear on what he should do (phrasing things in terms of what he should do is always a good idea.) If a verbal command doesn't work, then it's time to gently help him comply. That's teaching him you mean what you say and that you'll follow through. If you only follow through sometimes, then he's going to push harder to not do what you ask, because you're letting him play the compliance lottery. "Sometimes mom/dad makes me, sometimes they don't. Which will it be this time? What are the risks of not doing it?" Intermittent reinforcement is a really powerful motivator. So, if your dh is expecting him to obey verbal commands all the time, I think he's got unreasonable expectations of where a child is in development. Dad needs to go to him, get down to his level, phrase the request in terms of what your son needs to do, and help him follow through, all while being calm.

 

 

 

Tjej likes this.

Lynnteapot2.GIF, academicreading.gif,geek.gif wife, WOHM  to T jog.gif(4/01) and M whistling.gif (5/04)
LynnS6 is offline  
#19 of 37 Old 02-17-2012, 08:53 AM
 
Tjej's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: a beautiful place
Posts: 1,580
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

How to get them to live up to high expectations:

A lot of loving patience, explaining, coming to their level, modelling, repetition, consistency... mixed in with fun together and interesting experiences.  And realizing when expectations are unreasonable and finding a new way to make the family work well together. 

FWIW, I found that at some stages/ages, a child having a lot of choices can actually add frustration for them instead of making them feel empowered.  In our world, if they can handle choice without flipping out when they don't have a choice, they get more choices.  If they can't graciously accept that sometimes Mama does know best and they need to do what they're told (hold my hand in the parking lot to stay safe, dear...), then they get less choices and more practice obeying until they can more graciously accept what needs to happen.

I'm not saying my kids are perfect or I'm perfect.  No way.  But that's how I get them to live up to "high" expectations.

 

Tjej

Tjej is offline  
#20 of 37 Old 02-18-2012, 11:05 AM
 
AllisonR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,137
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

A lot of very interesting posts. As others have mentioned, there is a huge difference between obedience and respect. In my opinion, respect is EARNED and vital. Obedience is not always good or even healthy.

 

Just an example - 30 years ago, people were obedient to their employeer, doing as told without thinking so much. But in return, they were safe with an income for 40 years. This is absolutly not true today, when free thinking, skilled and boundary-pushing creative minds do much better in the work force. 

 

My father was a conservative military man. I was obedient (and sometimes afraid) of my father. Otherwise I got an age-inappropriate lecture on my dissapointing faults, or a hit on the butt. So I was quite obedient to him, even though I am a very strong-willed person. Was our relationship useful or healthy? Absolutely not. Sometimes I loathed him, because he was unfair, which he was, even as I obeyed him. I was not always so obedient to my mother. But I respected her, and loved her, much more. Because she respected me. She sent the message that I wasn't just a young version of a person. I was my own, unique person. In giving me respect, I learned respect for others, and I respected her. 

 

Several posters mentioned choices. This also works very well for us. A 3 year old is very impotent, they have no power for themselves, their enviornment, often not even their own bodies. So it is very good to give them some choice, some power, when you can. And it does not take much to do this. Next time your DH gives an order, role model for him. If he says "DS, put on that shirt." You say "DH, give him a choice. Like this. DS, we are going out so you need a shirt on. Do you want the blue one or green one?"

 

Several posters mentioned that if you don't need obedience often, you will get it a lot more when you do ask. If he demands all the time, kids will tune it out. Plus, kids do learn what is really relevant and what isn't. So if everything is a demand, they see no system in it, no order, and they don't ever take it seriously. Role model for your DH next times he demands something irrelevant. "DH, is it really urgent that he puts on his socks right now? We are not going out. Could you ask him in a more gentle, non-demanding tone if he wants to put his socks on, or if he wants you to help him put them on?" Your DH just needs some time to learn this. He needs to think before he speaks. This is easier said than done. He needs to hold his tongue, think about what he is demanding, find out if it really is a serious demand or if it could just be an option or a comment. He will get better, if he practices. I promise. This didn't always come naturally to me. I only knew what I did NOT want to repeat from my upbringing, but I didn't naturally know always what to do. I had to practice. Maybe print out and let your DH read all these posts, maybe it will give him some ideas. 

 

"Do not run across that street" is a valid order. "Lower your voice" is not a valid order. How can it be changed? "DS, can you go to your bedroom, you can dance and shout in there." or "DS, I need you to lower your voice because I am on the phone. I can not hear when you are shouting." or touch him on the shoulder and face him and quietly say "DS, do you hear how I am talking now? It is more quiet. Can you try talking like this." And maybe more important than everything else, when he does lower his voice "Thank you DS. I like that voice!" Everyone likes concrete praise, especially if they are getting a lot of negatives otherwise. I don't mean that awful vague "good job" every time he lifts a finger. But when he has tried, remember he is 3, and if you think he really did try a "that is great you did XYZ" will counter the previous orders. 

AllisonR is offline  
#21 of 37 Old 02-19-2012, 10:32 AM
 
transylvania_mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: abroad
Posts: 1,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by allisonrose View Post



 



 Okay maybe this is a silly question but why do they listen and obey? I'm sure some of your children are older than 3 but I am wondering what you have found works with this age group.

 

 

What I find it works for toddlers and preschoolers is a hands on approach. If I want my 2.5 to "listen" or stop whatever she's doing to come eat for example, I just need to go to her, make eye contact, ask her to give me the book or toy she was playing with, possibly take her by the hand and maybe help her to climb on the chair (she is at the me-do-it stage, so I'm pretty much not needed for this part).

 

I don't agree with some of the PP (but everyone is entitled to their opinion): respect is not earned here, it is expected from the youngest to the oldest in our household. I find it unfair that the saying "respect must be earned" is always said by an older person to a youngster... never the other way around. Kids are worthy of respect just because they are... they don't need to prove themselves to deserve my respect.

 

Obedience is not a good trait to have nowadays. I also come from a culture that demands obedience from children and I myself find it difficult to adjust to the western culture; I always freeze in front of my boss (a very nice lady), an older person or someone in command. I agree that in the army obedience can mean the difference between life and death, but at least the decision to obey is made consciously by an adult when deciding to enroll.

 

OP, I would encourage your dh to parent from a place of love, not from a "me versus the kids" mentality. If he understands that his role is not to control or subdue his son, but to guide and support him, I'm sure it would be easier for him to find the tools to deal with his ds.

 

Good luck to you :)


caffix.gif

transylvania_mom is offline  
#22 of 37 Old 02-20-2012, 07:27 PM
 
Honey693's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,128
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I have a stubborn 3.5 year old and I expect instant obedience on some things.  Any time we're outside I expect it.  Stop, no, etc outside are safety things here.  As for pretty much anything else I'm open to discussion, but I do not deal with tantrums.  You want to talk and use your words, super.  You want to scream and kick walls, fine, have fun, I'm not participating.


obstruct livery vehicles

Honey693 is offline  
#23 of 37 Old 02-27-2012, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
allisonrose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NoVa
Posts: 1,993
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)

I ended up taking a bit of a break from this thread. We've had some illnesses come through the house and our computer is being uncooperative.

 

The poster who said that it seems hubby and I have different thoughts/expectations is 100% right. Hubby and I don't see eye to eye on a lot of parenting topics. I am striving to be an AP parent (obviously since I'm here at MDC) while my hubby is very entrenched in mainstream thinking.

 

We took our son to an indoor playground the other day and my hubby tried telling him "okay we're leaving now". But he just went back into the play structure. I took him "hey three more minutes; when the phone rings we're going". Set a timer on my phone and when it started ringing, he came down and left with us without complaining. Maybe hubby will see that sometimes my way might not be the way his mom did things but it works.


Mama to Blake, 5, and Grant, 3
ribbonpb.gif
allisonrose is offline  
#24 of 37 Old 02-27-2012, 08:50 AM
 
Tjej's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: a beautiful place
Posts: 1,580
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I agree with your timer approach, BUT it sounds like it was done after your DH said it was time to go.  Your DH was totally undermined and disrespected.  I can see how if this dynamic happens much at all he would be really upset by it. 

 

My DH requests things of the kids that I find excessive/could be done a better way as well, but I do my best to discuss them with my DH afterwards and I expect my kids to be respectful of DH.  For instance, last night at supper DH told DS he couldn't lick off the lid wrapper of the newly-opened guacamole - he had to use his chips to get it off.  Ridiculous thing to boss someone about, IMO.  Who cares?  DH licks those things off all the time too.  Anyway, I clearly didn't agree, and DS kept licking.  HOWEVER, I said to DS, "Daddy doesn't feel it is polite for you to lick the lid, so let's be considerate of Daddy and find a different way".  And DS did use his chip then.  DS was respected, and DH was respected.

 

Tjej

 

 

Tjej is offline  
#25 of 37 Old 02-27-2012, 09:01 AM
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Cover letter he!!
Posts: 6,548
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjej View Post

I agree with your timer approach, BUT it sounds like it was done after your DH said it was time to go.  Your DH was totally undermined and disrespected.  I can see how if this dynamic happens much at all he would be really upset by it. 

 



Yeah, I know your child is only 3yo, but they still get the message that they don't have to listen to daddy. Which is not OK. You could have asked your dc to come out of the play structure (or led them out of it - don't know what type of indoor playground it was), and then said, "DC, daddy said it was time to go. If you are not ready yet you need to ask politely for 5 more minutes to play. Can you say, Daddy may I have 5 more minutes to play?" Then t helped your DS ask, and then each would have been respected.

Super~Single~Mama is offline  
#26 of 37 Old 02-27-2012, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
 
allisonrose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NoVa
Posts: 1,993
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjej View Post

I agree with your timer approach, BUT it sounds like it was done after your DH said it was time to go.  Your DH was totally undermined and disrespected.  I can see how if this dynamic happens much at all he would be really upset by it. 

 

My DH requests things of the kids that I find excessive/could be done a better way as well, but I do my best to discuss them with my DH afterwards and I expect my kids to be respectful of DH.  For instance, last night at supper DH told DS he couldn't lick off the lid wrapper of the newly-opened guacamole - he had to use his chips to get it off.  Ridiculous thing to boss someone about, IMO.  Who cares?  DH licks those things off all the time too.  Anyway, I clearly didn't agree, and DS kept licking.  HOWEVER, I said to DS, "Daddy doesn't feel it is polite for you to lick the lid, so let's be considerate of Daddy and find a different way".  And DS did use his chip then.  DS was respected, and DH was respected.

 

Tjej

 

 



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post



Yeah, I know your child is only 3yo, but they still get the message that they don't have to listen to daddy. Which is not OK. You could have asked your dc to come out of the play structure (or led them out of it - don't know what type of indoor playground it was), and then said, "DC, daddy said it was time to go. If you are not ready yet you need to ask politely for 5 more minutes to play. Can you say, Daddy may I have 5 more minutes to play?" Then t helped your DS ask, and then each would have been respected.


My hubby just looked at me and sort of shrugged. It was a "hamster-style" indoor playground and I had zero interest in climbing into there after him and my hubby possibly would not have fit. Since he was not doing anything, I used my typical technique. My husband typically uses bribing: candy, sweets or TV. (Personally I think bribing a child the majority of the time sets yourself up to not being listened to. I think our son is used to resistingmy hubby a bit so he can get something.)
 

 


Mama to Blake, 5, and Grant, 3
ribbonpb.gif
allisonrose is offline  
#27 of 37 Old 02-27-2012, 02:01 PM
 
Tjej's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: a beautiful place
Posts: 1,580
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

But what is your DH going to do?  Yell at you?  Stomp off pissed?  Snark?  He's in public and it sounds like this undermining isn't the first time.  So he's sort of given up.  He feels like he's not allowed to expect respect/listening, so he doesn't know what else to do.  And you said he doesn't fit into the structure, so he needs you to help him enforce what he's said.  But he knows you don't want to/won't.  So he shrugs.  He gives it to you to deal with.  But he still feels crappy that your child isn't listening to him. 

 

Yeah, bribing is a bad idea.  I agree, it teaches a kid to look for the bribe.  But letting a kid ignore their dad is just as bad, IMO.

 

Tjej

Tjej is offline  
#28 of 37 Old 02-27-2012, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
allisonrose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NoVa
Posts: 1,993
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)

Honestly I'm unsure if I could have fit into the play structure either: I'm somewhat slender but I'm also 5'8. Definitely not the height those things are designed for. If one of my children were stuck, I'd figure out a way to squeeze myself in to get him (you know, a mama-bear situation).

 

I'm a tad frustrated because the only parenting my hubby tends to do is flip on the TV to keep ds1 "calm and quiet" or uses bribes. Occasionally he spanks. If it were him as a child, he would have immediately come out when his mom told him it was time to go or he would have been spanked in the car or at home. That is all he knows and he has not shown willingness to learn another way. I left a fathering book from Dr Sears on his desk with two or three spots marked. I skimmed through the book and felt those chapters/portions would be most interesting to him based on our children's age, etc. It would have been maybe 15 pages of reading. He never read them. The book is now lost which stinks because I borrowed it from my local APi group. I asked him to go to the quarterly APi weekend meeting but he decided to bring his car in to be serviced and it wasn't ready in time for us to go to the meeting. How do I work with someone who doesn't want to put in much effort?


Mama to Blake, 5, and Grant, 3
ribbonpb.gif
allisonrose is offline  
#29 of 37 Old 02-27-2012, 05:09 PM
 
serenbat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,100
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)

 

 

Quote:
How do I work with someone who doesn't want to put in much effort?

 

by showing him respect, you don't come across as doing so 

 

Quote:
He feels like he's not allowed to expect respect/listening, so he doesn't know what else to do.

 

 

Quote:
Yeah, I know your child is only 3yo, but they still get the message that they don't have to listen to daddy. Which is not OK. You could have asked your dc to come out of the play structure

 

 

as the other posters have pointed out - and I agree with them, you seem to want things only done your way-you disagree with him but you also seem to disrespect him and that is a greater issue-IMO  seems this is more about the two of you getting on the same book, not even close to being on the same page yet

 

 

if you don't show respect how do you think you are modeling it to your children? 


 

 pro-transparency advocate

&

lurk.gif  PROUD member of the .3% club!

 

Want to join? Just ask me!

 

"You know, in my day we used to sit on our ass smoking Parliaments for nine months.

Today, you have one piece of Brie and everybody goes berserk."      ROTFLMAO.gif 

serenbat is offline  
#30 of 37 Old 02-27-2012, 05:32 PM
 
Imakcerka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 4,065
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)

Alright I read all.  Mama, you need to let give your DH the tools to parent.  He obviously wants to parent as well and when someone is learning they tend to become frustrated easily.  He found that TV and spanking works for him.  Not something most of us agree with but you're not offering him any other options when you undermine him.  You need to take this on as a team.  Work together.  If he says time to go, it's time to go.  There was no reason you should have given the 3 more minutes.  However you could have shared with him before hand what would work.  He then could have said the three more minutes and set the timer.  Work together.  Guys have a hard time being part of it when we don't give them time to become parents too.

Imakcerka is offline  
Reply

Tags
Children

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off