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Bossy boots!

1K views 22 replies 8 participants last post by  ShannonCC 
#1 ·
Ugh! We just spent time over Thanksgiving with my DH's cousin's 4yo dd (our dd is 3). I know it must be partially age-related, but the cousin's dd was so mean and bossy to my dd, I felt terrible and didn't know what to do. Example: wanting to "force" my dd to play exactly as she wanted to, to the point of physically pushing her around. Wanting to shut her in the closet, telling dd that she was a "bad girl". Wanting to play "Mommy", which consisted of the 4yo being the mommy and my dd being the "baby", getting yelled at, pushed around, and bossed.

This kid was so bossy, she didn't even want my dd to sing a Teletubbies song which she was innocently singing. She was literally screaming at my dd to stop singing. Dd obviously did not want to play with 4yo after a short while, and I tried to keep her away from dd when I realized that my attempts to shift the play into something less aggressive were not going to work.

Of course, neither the cousin or his wife said anything other than a feeble, "I don't think she likes when you hug her like that" ("hug" being grabbing dd around the neck and trying to drag her.)I can't stand situations like that. If it was in public like at the library or something, I would just get away from the kid. But with family, it was expected that all the kids would play together happily while the grownups chatted. Ideally, that would be great, but it didn't work out that way.

Any advice to keep dd from being treated like dog doo while not insulting the uninvolved parents? I never want to go to another family event, I swear! I don't want to come across as "my dd is sooooo perfect, she would never act like that", but she goes to preschool and gets along fine with kids there according to her teachers, so I don't think she was instigating trouble with the 4yo.
 
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#2 ·
That's a difficult one! I remember having relatives like that to 'play' with on occasion when I was little, and it was definitely no picnic. Without really being able to enlist the little horror's parents, it can be hard to intercede. I think you were right to try to just separate your daughter from the situation when you could. How is she with playing on her own? Maybe next time you need to socialize with these people, you could bring something special for her to play with (maybe a bag of little things she doesn't often get to use, a new book, craft supplies) and she could hang out near the grownups. This might work for visits that aren't too long. If the other child is still attacking her (because that's what it sounds like to me!), to he!! with family harmony: tell the child off, and any adult who objects to you doing so
I know that there are probably more positive ways to effect a change in aggressive behaviour in the long term, but none of them involve tolerating hurtful actions in the moment. Anyway, this child is not your problem in the long-term, and you need to protect your own daughter.
 
#3 ·
I'm the pushy mom, I think 3 is old enough for a child to learn to defend themselves. I tell my dd "Say I don't like that" or whatever is appropriate. I also will step in and tell a child when they are treating my child in an innapropriate way. (You may not drag her by the neack- then guide her to an appropriate exchange) You can't change what other people do to you, but you can change your reaction.
 
#4 ·
I agree. I teach my children to stand up for themselves. If they don't want to be touched they need to tell the person touching them. If they don't want to play a certain way they need to tell that person. If said person doesn't listen then they can yell at them to stop it. It isn't the nicest way to handle things but no one should be victemized by a bossy person like that - and I think what the cousin did was beyond bossy. She was bullying your dd. DD can be bossy (
but we are working on it) but she never forces other kids to follow her. Generally she just dissolves in tears when they don't want to play her way. Outside of being annoying it will probably work itself out and noone gets hurt or feels threatened.
 
#5 ·
Guess I'll offer a different opinion as the mom of a 4 y/o who is very spirited (I won't use the harsher labels).

Instead of thinking of the girl as a bully, why not think of her as a *child* who is acting her age and treat her as such? No, you do not just let her do what she wants, but you can positively and kindly step in and stop her instead of writing her off as a bad kid.

My suggestion would be to not leave them alone and expect them to play nicely. It's already been shown that is not going to happen right now. Be right with them. Right on the floor playing with them, in the room with them, etc. Yes, you'll miss out on the adult conversation, but it will not be forever. And maybe some of the other adults could get involved playing with the kids too.

When the girl does things like that (and her parents ignore it) then *you* be the one to pry her hands off of your dd. *You* be the one to nicely say "I know you want to play with my dd, the problem is, she doesn't like being grabbed like that. Please stop" or "You're angry because you want dd to do what you say. The problem is, she is her own person and doesn't like being told what to do" *You* be the one to suggest or start other activities and, if they don't work, then *you* be the one to say "DD and I need a little quiet time by ourselves so we're going to go read a book/take a walk/have a snuggle."

Let me say that yes, this should be the parents responsibility. However, when the parents don't do their job, you have every right to step in (to a certain extent).

Try and imagine how you would react if your dd was the one acting like this. Would you tell her off? Call her a bully? Or would you try and gently guide her and help her to not hurt others with her actions and words?
 
#6 ·
Very nicely put, Shannon! I have a spirited dd also. She has a mind of her own and when she was four and five she was very, very, bossy and controlling, to the point of trying to physically drag other kids around. Of course, I intervened, but it was very difficult and frustrating to correct. She'll be six in a couple weeks and she is much, much better. It's partly personality and partly maturity and she is growing out of it, learning to handle it better, although she would still much rather be in charge! You gave some very helpful suggestions. Perhaps I will try to do more of that the next time dd has a playmate!

P.S. The last time she had a friend over I witnessed this exchange.

dd-"Let's play Dragon Tales. I'll be Emmy"
friend-"Okay, I want to be Emmy"
dd-"All right you be Emmy, and I'll be Cassie"
friend-"I want to be Cassie, too"
dd-"Okay, I'll be Wheezy"
friend-"I want to be Wheezy"

At this point dd finally lost her cool and started yelling at her friend, but I was very proud of her for being so flexible for so long. She got an "A" for effort in my book!
 
#7 ·
I agree, Sophia momma, your daughter definitely does get an A for effort!

Nice to hear these repsonses that are sympathetic to the four-year-old (can you tell that I'm the mom to a spirited 4 y/o, too?)

However, I do sympathize with Rosiemama, too- the parents of the four-year-old should have been the ones to step in. Its not fair for her to have to do all the parenting that they should have done! That said, I would probably try to handle it exactly as Shannon described- its not *fair*, but it is nice.
 
#8 ·
Thanks to all who've replied!

Mammastar, that is a good idea about bringing an activity for DD to play with near me. We have to see them again at Xmas time and I am just dreading it.

khrisday and lilyka, I have always taught DD about standing up for herself, but she tends to be an avoider, not a confronter. If she doesn't like another kid's behavior she usually makes it clear by not talking to them, walking away, saying "no" etc.. The other kid usually gives up. She just couldn't get away from this particular kid, though! I told her afterwards that she could yell if she needed to in order to let the 4yo know that she does not like her roughness, and that she can come tell me if things are getting too rough. And that she doesn't have to play with her at all.

ShannonCC, I just wanted to point out that I did not call the 4yo a bully. And I have a rather active kid myself, so I don't usually leave her alone in another room with other kids while we are visiting someone else's house (never know when she might decide to turn the bathroom faucets on or rummage through the host's drawers or eat a tube of toothpaste). In fact, the children were in the same room as the adults at this event. I did step in over and over and made it clear that the 4yo's behavior was not acceptable, but she always went back to the same behavior. I left feeling angry and exhausted. It totally sucked--so much for getting to talk to any of my relatives or sit down for a minute and have some pie!

I know what you're saying about modeling good play for the kids, but I don't want to be the doormat who babysits while the other moms have coffee and ignore their kids. Also, I have tried to gently intervene in similar situations in the past by saying things like, "I think you should use gentle words instead of yelling" or "Ouch! Friends are for hugging, not for hitting," and I have actually angered a few other parents by doing this.

So I'm looking for a non-confrontational way to deal with these kinds of situation. Maybe it's impossible? In real life, DD would never have a kid like this as a friend, but in family situations, ugh!
 
#9 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by rosiesmama
In real life, DD would never have a kid like this as a friend
No, you didn't use that word. I was mostly responding to the tone of the responses you got. Tho, from what you've said, I think you do have to admit you are already writing this child off (if only in your head). The phrase " a kid like this" says a lot. I do not mean this to be confrontational, but I guess it bothers me because my dd is definitely "a kid like this".

The problem you are having is not really with the child, but with the parents. My dd is probably a lot like that girl. She once wrestled a boy her age to the ground and sat on him. Not nice at all. The difference is that *I* actually did something about it. I stepped in instead of sitting on my butt and watching. And luckily, the friend who's son it was, was very understanding about this (and other incidents where my dd was the instigator). She knows my kid is not "bad", she's just a kid who will need time, in *addition* to parenting, to outgrow this.

IMO, if the parents will not step in, they have left you no choice but to do so. If they get angry because you *talk* to their dd then they should do something. If they won't do something, then maybe it's time to start spending holidays with other family. As for being a doormat, well, who said you have to babysit *their* kids? You are just watching out for yours.

I also can't think of a way to get adults to parent their kids if they don't think they need to. As far as I can see, your choices are to step in, not step in (not a choice of course) or just not show up where they are. You can try talking to the other parents, but it probably won't work.

Anyway, good luck to you! I totally understand the not getting to sit and have pie thing, believe me! It is very frustrating.
 
#10 ·
Shannon,

You're right, the problem I have is with the parents. It's not the kid's fault that they treat her the way they do. Children who play by calling others "bad" and "naughty" and threaten to "lock them up all day for being bad" and yell "what's wrong with you?!" are not to blame for what is said to them, and they are only repeating it.

You are right that I am writing this kid off in a way. My Dd doesn't enjoy playing with children like this and I wouldn't force her to be friends with someone who she doesn't like. And as much as I wish it could be different, spending a few hours a year modeling gentle behavior to this child is not going to have much of an impact on her when her parents make it clear that being mean to her and to others is okay.

Is your daughter really like this child I'm describing? I have trouble imagining how an involved AP parent could raise a child who seems to be being mistreated at home.
 
#11 ·
Actually Shannon, you are saying the other part of what I meant to write. We don't have differing opinions on this, they are exactly the same. Sometimes I get interrupted midstream and forget what I was going to say. And yes, APed kids can be bossy like this, mine are.
 
#12 ·
rosiesmama,

I can relate to your anger at the child's parents. I have been in similar situations. Once, after spending an evening entertaining a four-year-old so that she would not pinch or hit my crawling baby (which she did as soon as she was not basking in adult attention). I felt so angry at her parents. We were all in the same room, but the parents (who had earlier described themselves as worn out by their spirited daughter--they were delayed arriving at the dinner party by a temper tantrum in the car) seemed completely oblivious during dinner and even lingered forever over wine after dinner.

Did you say anything to the parents? I know I wished that I could have come up with something non-judgemental and yet helpful to say. Like, "It looks like it takes a lot of adult attention to keep things harmonious between the children. We've been giving your dd a lot of attention. Do you think we could trade off?" I think that not saying anything to the parents had doubled my anger. But I also sensed that it was, essentially our problem, since they were (for whatever reason) comfortable with what was happening. I think once or twice they barked at her in a threatening and offhanded way, which certainly didn't help. So it didn't seem like there was any grounding for team work. Perhaps if we had been more direct (pointing out the pinching, etc, which of course was being done semi-covertly by the four-year-old, and would not be visible to someone immersed in adult conversation at the table!) it would have gotten their attention, but I guess I worried that they would have been defensive.

I think the previous posters and you have nailed it--the proble is with the parents, so the solution (if there is one?) would be, too. Any thoughts about constructive ways to communicate with parents of children doing problematic things at shared gatherings?

Any way, rosiemama, I very much relate to your dilemma.
 
#13 ·
No, my dd hasn't specifically tried to lock anyone in a closet or anything (yet). She has hit other kids, she has pushed and shoved and yelled at them because she wanted her way. She has done lots of things that I have seen other kids do too, she just tends to do it more.

The child you are describing may not be mistreated. Maybe not even ignored. Maybe her parents are attentive at home, but trying to sit and chat at holidays. I know I have been guilty of trying to sit with the adults at holidays and not spend every minute with my dd. Maybe she gets some of it from tv too, or from her friends at school or something. She's not neccesarily being locked up all day.

Recently, my dd put her doll in her room (a cardboard box) and told her she had to stay there all day and think about what she did. Huh? DD doesn't even have her own room. I've never used that phrasing, I've never told her she had to stay somewhere as punishment. TV? A book? One of her friends maybe?

My point is that not every child who acts this way is doing so because of bad parenting. My dd has been wired from day 1 and it always amused me to hear other people say that their kids were so mellow and laid back because they were AP. There I was, nursing, co-sleeping and carrying dd all day long and she was still a horrible sleeper and a wired, demanding baby. Now she's older and I hear parents say their kids are so polite and gentle because they are AP. Well, my dd still nurses, still co-sleeps, I discipline as gently as I can (tho I'm not always perfect, but show me a mom who is, right?) we don't spank, I try to use gentle, respectful wording (love the How to Talk book). But dd is still dd.

We have had great luck with an elimination diet and found that a lot of problems were food related. But she is still a strong willed, powerful little girl. She will grow up to be an amazing woman who no one will shove around. But right now, she has to learn how to channel that power in a good way. It's not something she will learn overnight. Even with (IMO) good parenting, it's still something that she has to mostly grow into. I'm just here to protect her and others while trying to guide her to that goal.

Ok, that sounded really high falutin, lol! But I also used to think that all kids who acted badly did so because of bad parenting (blame the mom). Then I had Bridget who shook my world, made me humble and still causes a lot of headaches.

My ds on the other hand, IS a mellow, content little thing. If I had him first I would have said it was because of me, but now I know it's just the luck of the draw sometimes


Bad parenting *can* cause problems of course and I think AP and gentle discipline is the way to go. But it's not all nurture. Nature plays a big part too.
 
#14 ·
It sounds like we agree on a lot, Shannon. I do believe that personality plays a large role in any kid's behavior. And I don't believe that children are born these sweet, innocent sages who, if AP'd, will never have tantrums or be sassy. Like I said, my own kid can be intense. She was a hot ticket from babyhood on. DH's family actually used to get upset because DD would have fits as a newborn when she didn't like how grandma or great auntie held her or if they shook a toy at her the "wrong" way, LOL! Great auntie actually said "There is something wrong with that child! I've never met a baby I couldn't soothe!"

DH's cousin's daughter does go to daycare, so maybe that's where she's learning some of the stuff she knows (not an indictment of daycare--there are good ones and not so good ones). Although I have seen the cousin (father) hit the dogs and throw the kitten. So.....I'm guessing that may be making a big impression on their little one.

However, all that being said, repeatedly letting your child yell at and hurt another child IS bad parenting in my opinion. Hey, that's just my opinion, but I'm entitled to one like anyone else, right?
 
#15 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by rosiesmama
repeatedly letting your child yell at and hurt another child IS bad parenting in my opinion. Hey, that's just my opinion, but I'm entitled to one like anyone else, right?
Oh I totally agree with you! I was just defending the child. From what you said, the parents are not doing their job. They may not be as bad as she is playacting (tho hitting animals is definitely a bad sign
) but at least at holidays, they are not doing what they are supposed to do. I was just pointing out *that* is the problem. If it was the same child, but parents who did step in (hopefully in a loving manner of course), then it wouldn't be an issue and you might not be feeling the way you do. There have been times when Bridget has been on the receiving end of abuse but as long as the parent steps in, it's ok and it gets worked out and we can keep playing. If they don't step in, then that's when we leave.

I chuckled at your infant dd story! Sounds like my dd as an infant. Actually, she didn't cry much at all, as long as you did *everything* right, lol!
 
#16 ·
I, too, have heard my dd say things like "you're bad" and "you have to sit here all day and think about your behavior." Now, I've made my share of mistakes, but I have never, ever once told dd she was bad, nor has any one else *that I know of*, but she must have heard it somewhere. I've also never made her sit anywhere "all day." She just gets into it and she likes to be in charge, so sometimes her interpretation of that is to be the big, bossy, mean guy. When I hear it I ask her to stop, but she does gravitate toward it in play. Shannon's description of her dd sounds extremely familiar!

That said, I think sometimes parents, particularly those who are exhausted by a spirited child, will tune their child out when in the company of other adults. I know I've done it. It's as though you can relax for a bit and let down your guard. If I'm around a bunch of other adults I may feel like I don't have to be totally tuned into dd all the time, because there are other eyes and ears available. If I did hear another adult speak sharply to her, I would pay attention to see if I needed to step in or if it was being handled. I think it is good for her to hear how other adults besides mom feel about her behavior. I would also step in if someone told me she was out of line and I hadn't noticed.

Maybe these particular parents will be resentful and angry if you say something, but it might be worth a try. Perhaps you could tell them that your dd needed a break from playing with their dd and could they let her know not to try to play for awhile or whatever. If anyone ever said that to me I would totally understand and steer dd elsewhere with an appropriate explanation. It might hurt my feelings a little at times, but not usually. I know how my dd is. For me, the worst part is feeling like someone doesn't like my daughter or want to be around her, or thinks I'm a bad parent, because of her behavior.
 
#17 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Sofiamomma
She just gets into it and she likes to be in charge, so sometimes her interpretation of that is to be the big, bossy, mean guy. When I hear it I ask her to stop, but she does gravitate toward it in play. Shannon's description of her dd sounds extremely familiar!.
Well, since we're raising twins here (hee hee) what do you think when she does that? I'm never sure whether to play along, or point out that I think it's mean. If she's mean to a person, of course I step in (or an animal). I just don't know what to do when she's mean to dolls and wants me to play along. Or not even mean, but, well, weird. Her big thing lately is to play that mommy has to go to work and the baby has to stay with the babysitter and will be unhappy but that's too bad, because mommy has to work. What the heck??? I'm a SAHM!!! Weird, huh? Oh and I hate when she gives her babies bottles and tells me it's because they are "too big" for mookies. I've pointed out to her that she's FOUR and still gets mookies so where is THAT coming from? What can I say, kids are weird
:

For me, the worst part is feeling like someone doesn't like my daughter or want to be around her, or thinks I'm a bad parent, because of her behavior.

I've never had someone say that but I feel it sometimes. I have been told that I was exactly like her at this age, so I know where she gets it from (and my mom was NOT AP, that's for sure). I still feel bad tho. As if maybe if I was the perfect mom, 100% perfect, she wouldn't be her. Which is silly, but still, it's hard to let go of the idea that we, the mothers, are responsible for everything.
 
#18 ·
You know, part of me wants to let it go, because after all, it is her business, and she's doing her "work" when she plays, so maybe she needs to work through some stuff and I should just butt out. What I actually do though is tell her I don't want to hear her talking that way, even if she is just playing. My gut is telling me though, that that is not the right response. It's telling me that she needs to do this kind of play for some reason. Maybe I will experiment with not saying anything and see how it unfolds. Of course, if it is another person or animal I will continue to intervene.

It is frustrating, the whole idea that if I could only be 100% perfect she would not be the way she is. I cringe when moms say their child has always been treated well, so he or she is kind, polite, gentle, cooperative, etc. I'm learning to stop the inner talk that tells me that the converse must be true. My dd is not all those things all the time, therefore I must not be treating her well enough. It really is personality, a lot of it. I could do better, and will keep trying to, but I think a lot of the improvement that I am seeing in her behavior is simply that she is *older* and more mature. It is a repeating cycle. Every year, around the time she is whatever age, plus about 9 months she is difficult to live with, then, seemingly like magic just around her birthday, she is suddenly much more of a joy to be around.

BTW, I was just reading something in this month's issue of "Brain, Child" about nature vs. nurture that made me feel a lot better. It was basically saying that the research points to nature being stronger than nurture. Not that nurture doesn't make a difference, but cannot override certain things that are genetic. The author was telling parents to relax a little and not be so hard on themselves.
 
#19 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Sofiamomma
Every year, around the time she is whatever age, plus about 9 months she is difficult to live with, then, seemingly like magic just around her birthday, she is suddenly much more of a joy to be around.
That is 100% Bridget too! I always heard the 1/2 year theory (that kids act up when they are X 1/2) but for us, it's been the 3/4 theory instead. At 2 3/4 she was hell to live with, to the point we were deciding if we wanted anymore kids at all! Then she was much better around her b-day. Then at 3 3/4 she was hell to live with again, lol! I'm not looking forward to next summer, that's for sure


I don't cringe when I read how moms think their kids are so "good" because of good parenting. Maybe I used to, but nowadays I laugh to myself. I think yeah, just get a kid like mine and you'll think differently. It's better then making myself feel bad and wondering what I'm doing wrong all the time.

Having said that, I do know that how I react helps a lot. I do think good parenting is important. Disciplining in a gentle way, with loving language and keeping myself calm when she is exploding is the best for all of us. But she is still her and always will be. She will never be mellow. If she was, she woudn't be Bridget! She's certainly not boring! She is an amazing kid, she's just not what you'd call easy.

I used to think that it was 99% nurture and a smidgeon of nature thrown in there. Then I became Bridget's mom and that threw that theory out the window, lol!

I think we have hijacked the thread, lol! Sorry! Sofiamomma I am really enjoying your posts. I always appreciate talking to other moms with spirited daughters. It makes me feel not alone
 
#20 ·
Shannon,
I too know what it's like to feel people do not like your child sometimes. My DD generally behaves okay, but sometimes just not okay enough for other people. Especially in public, when her radar goes on that she can make Mommy squirm!

My brother is so good at dealing when his kids misbehave. He stays very calm and says things like, "Justin, maybe you shouldn't be blowing chocolate milk out your nose in this restaurant. I want you to stop. Or I will have to take it away." My brother doesn't react at all, he barely even looks up, he just says it in this calm, businesslike way. Amazingly, his kids often pay attention to him. And other people, because he's so calm and seems so in control, tend to assume he is a good parent. I am trying his tactic and it seems to work well to not have a big reaction. Mean people at the grocery store see me being cool and calm and don't give me the evil eye---guess they think they shouldn't mess with me, LOL!

Sometimes I feel like people don't like my dd, when she wants to talk their ear off or is being kind of bratty. I feel bad for her, but then I think that sometimes I don't like being with her, and sometimes she doesn't like being with me, right? I am not always a gem to be with. We can't all like each other all of the time. DD told me she was gently disciplined for talking during the storytime at preschool recently. She was really matter of fact about it and then went back to playing happily with me and chatting. I thought it was a good sign that she can take criticism and still feel like she is a good, lovable person.

I think that a good point of AP, you know? You raise your child lovingly and then they will be able to take other people's disapproval without falling apart, because they feel essentially good.
 
#21 ·
Those are very good points, Rosiesmama! Mine's a talker, too. Never met a stranger!! What do you tell Rosie about how adults sometimes respond when she is "talking their ear off"?
 
#22 ·
Hi Sofiamomma,
I have told DD things like "OK, I think the cashier lady is busy and needs to get back to work" and "Oh, I think that little girl is done talking with you. Let's go do something else." I try to gently interrupt her and lead her onto some other activity. She is starting to pick up the social cues when people lose interest in her chatter. I don't blame them really. I start to get a little nutty when a stranger's kid comes up to me and starts telling me a long, long story about dinosaurs or something. I know it's normal, it's just.....mind numbing! :0)

It's so funny, I've felt criticized by others when my child has acted up, like "Can't you control that child?" and I have also felt criticized by others when my child has been well-behaved--"Gee, you sure have a passive child. (unspoken message=you must be a harsh, punishing parent to get her to behave. And what a boring child you have, by the way)."

I just keep trying to remind myself of my parenting vision. The end result. I do think it's normal and probably biologically ingrained for people to be nosy and critical of other people's parenting skills. A way of keeping the herd together and watching out for everyone's well being.

I think it was a lot easier to be a parent 30 or 40 years ago, before the 60's, because everyone pretty much agreed on how a child should behave. Back then, your neighbors would probably discipline your child the same as you (rather harshly). It was acceptable for strangers to tell your child that they were a "good girl" or a "bad girl" and no one would blink an eye. Now everything's changed due to having more information about how to raise a psychologically healthy person. But there is no agreement on how exactly you do that on a daily basis, so everyone is looking for their own way and hoping they don't mess their kids up. Like Dr. Sears, I loved his Baby Book, but his Discipline Book is just....it's good ideas but not enough explanation of what specifically to do. It still leaves me with a lot of questions.

I have heard that "Kids are Worth it" is excellent and I have requested it from my library. Hopefully I will get it soon. Have you read it?
 
#23 ·
Rosiemama, have you read How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk? It has *lots* of concrete examples. That's the kind of stuff that really helps me. I need it spelled out and then I can adapt it to my situation.

Bridget is a talker around people she likes, but has become very shy around strangers. Again, I think she's just like her mama
I am not a social butterfly either so it's either genetic, or she's picking it up from me. We're both homebodies who like our own company, lol!
 
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