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#61 of 149 Old 12-20-2005, 09:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tara
Well, Charles, you have a choice not to look at people that simplistically. Up to you. Personally, I think women have a right to express their sexuality without being called tramps and whores. A miniskirt does not a sex worker make. Besides, I have no judgement for women in the sex industry.
Love it when people read carefully.

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Originally Posted by charles baudelaire
It's not nice, to be sure. However, what we have here is a basic situation in which the vast majority of "streetwalkers and tramps" characteristically dress in a manner calculated to expose or accentuate their bodies' sexual characteristics. Whereas there might be the occasional streetwalker or tramp who dresses herself like this, , I have a feeling that they are not characteristic of most tramps and streetwalkers. If a woman chooses to dress in a similar manner (i.e., to expose or accentuate her body's sexual characteristics), then like it or not, the comparison will be made. It's not nice, as I said, and it's not accurate (in the sense that I am assuming the woman who dresses like a tramp or streetwalker is neither one), but that unfortunately is the reality. If I dress in black and white and snap some wings and a yellow bill on my face, I'm not going to actually be a penguin, but I will tend to resemble one, KWIM?
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#62 of 149 Old 12-20-2005, 09:58 PM
 
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I think they are over sexed dolls and wouldn't let them in my house. I don't let my child go over to play at peoples house if they are going to be playing with dolls such as these. If I know someone has them and they really want to play I will request that they not play with them. dd knows she is not supposed and prefers to play with better toys. She doesn't understand why Brat (snotty, disrespectful, lazy)=cool.

As for the gift ask the mom. Just call and run it buy her. ASk her what she thinks and include a gift reciept just in case. If you have already sent it just mention that you didn't realize it was controversial, hadn't seen all of them, etc and didn't realize how strongly some people felt bout these dolls, hope you didn't cause any problems etc . . . It was a sweet gesture.

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#63 of 149 Old 12-20-2005, 10:08 PM
 
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All those against these dolls, How you do feel about your children listening to music? Or watching videos? What are your thoughts on your children choosing those things for themselves? Clothing? Music? Videos? etc?
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#64 of 149 Old 12-20-2005, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by tara
Well, Charles, you have a choice not to look at people that simplistically. Up to you. Personally, I think women have a right to express their sexuality without being called tramps and whores. A miniskirt does not a sex worker make. Besides, I have no judgement for women in the sex industry.

*applause*
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#65 of 149 Old 12-20-2005, 10:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Charles Baudelaire
I showed this to my dh and said, "Would you buy this doll for Ramona?" He looked at it and said, "The hooker doll? Bratz streetcorner ho?"

(And no, this was not in front of the children, they are in bed.)

Even the "cute" Bratz dolls someone listed are showing their midriffs.

OP, I would return the doll and either get a Groovy Girl or some art supplies!

Namaste!
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#66 of 149 Old 12-20-2005, 10:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MrsMoe
*applause*
Please actually read what I said. It reflects poorly on anyone, really, when they comment upon something they have obviously either not read or have misread or are choosing to misread. I am assuming you have either chosen to misread my posts or were momentarily distracted and did not read it carefully -- the most flattering of the choices available to me.
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#67 of 149 Old 12-20-2005, 11:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Tinas3muskateers
All those against these dolls, How you do feel about your children listening to music? Or watching videos? What are your thoughts on your children choosing those things for themselves? Clothing? Music? Videos? etc?
My children only listen to music that lines up with our values. Same with all media - boks, movies, TV and computer (they are not allowed to play on the bratz web page). My children generally don't choose toys for themselves. They rarely have money/gift certificates. I would not allow these dolls in my house even if they paid for them themselves. But we really drive hom our values on these things and I keep educating my children until they understand why these don't line up with our values.

oh and we do not allow any hootchie clothes here either regardless of who paid for them.

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#68 of 149 Old 12-20-2005, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Tinas3muskateers
All those against these dolls, How you do feel about your children listening to music? Or watching videos? What are your thoughts on your children choosing those things for themselves? Clothing? Music? Videos? etc?
Are you asking if I let my 2, 3 and 4 year olds (when they were that age) listen to music that said F**K in it. Of course not. Are you asking if I allowed my 6 year old to view movies that had sexual intercourse in it? Of course not. I personally do not feel comfortable subjecting my kids to things that they cannot get their mind around.

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#69 of 149 Old 12-20-2005, 11:47 PM
 
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All those against these dolls, How you do feel about your children listening to music? Or watching videos? What are your thoughts on your children choosing those things for themselves? Clothing? Music? Videos? etc?
I think it is a crucial job of a parent to impart their values to their child. It is the child's responsibility when they are an adult to evaluate those values and choose to reject or accept them. As far as music, I shield my child -- who just turned five -- from music with violence or explicit sexual content. Fortunately, that leaves a great deal of music to explore and enjoy, and I'm glad to expose her to everything from opera to Rolling Stones. As far as videos, I think that most children's videos are utter garbage and we don't watch them. As far as other videos, I shield her from violence and explicit sexual content. And so on.

As she gets older, she will have more and more freedom to make these decisions for herself; however, it is my job as a parent to be a gatekeeper at this point for what goes into and out of my child's mind; I honestly feel it is irresponsible to do otherwise. Some people's gates may be wider than mine; others might be open to different directions, but in one way or another, many of the mothers on this board have a similar mindset: there are things they do and do not allow.
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#70 of 149 Old 12-21-2005, 01:04 AM
 
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To me and my kids they are a doll and nothing more.

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What bothers me far more than what a doll might or might not be wearing is teaching kids to call people names/assume bad things based on their attire.
ITA
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#71 of 149 Old 12-21-2005, 01:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Tinas3muskateers
All those against these dolls, How you do feel about your children listening to music? Or watching videos? What are your thoughts on your children choosing those things for themselves? Clothing? Music? Videos? etc?
My Dd is 4 years old and I would not bring Bratz into our home. She doesn't watch videos because we don't own a VCR, but she is around music with explict lyrics. As far as clothes go, she has no interest in them, yet.

I was allowed, as a child, to wear whatever I wanted, read whatever I wanted, listen to whatever music. However, when I was 4, my parents allowed me to have my innocence. They didn't go out of their way to expose me to adult issues.

There are so many great dolls out there, we choose not to have Bratz in our home. If my Dd was let's-say-8 and noticed Bratz and really wanted one, I would discuss it with her and very possibly allow her to have them, then. Until then, I'm not going to expose her to them out of the blue for no good reason.

Updated to say that I just went to the Bratz website and saw them closer up. I take back what I said about giving one to my 8 year old maybe. No, I wouldn't give them to her.
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#72 of 149 Old 12-21-2005, 02:00 AM
 
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I would never buy one of those ugly dolls for my girls or anyone else's girls either. I hate the name of them too. Yuk.
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#73 of 149 Old 12-21-2005, 02:23 AM
 
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I haven't had a chance to read all of the replies (just a few), but wanted to offer my .02 if that's okay.

Personally, I would not buy these dolls for my 7 yo dd. Not necessarily because they look like prostitutes as mentioned by a PP. Simply because they demonstrate dress of an adult woman. I am more on the conservative side when it comes to the way I dress. I don't believe that a woman needs to show a lot of skin in order to be considered beautiful. These dolls (along with society) promote sexuality too much, IMO.

My dd is tall and thin. I am already having a lot of trouble finding clothing that fits her that aren't too 'sexy' for a 7 yo. (Mid-drifts, writing on the butt, low rise pants) I don't really want to deal with the sexuality of a doll.

That's just me.

If you like the doll and you think your niece would like the doll, give it to her.
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#74 of 149 Old 12-21-2005, 02:32 AM
 
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Nothing is ever *just* a doll. I agree with tara's perspective in this discussion. Bratz dolls are laden with messages about what girls and women are in this culture... messages that are culturally reinforced all over the place, and messages that I don't particularly want to reinforce with my daughter any more than will already happen.

No way would I buy her a Bratz doll.
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#75 of 149 Old 12-21-2005, 02:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kimmie-pooh
Simply because they demonstrate dress of an adult woman. I am more on the conservative side when it comes to the way I dress. I don't believe that a woman needs to show a lot of skin in order to be considered beautiful. These dolls (along with society) promote sexuality too much, IMO.

My dd is tall and thin. I am already having a lot of trouble finding clothing that fits her that aren't too 'sexy' for a 7 yo. (Mid-drifts, writing on the butt, low rise pants) I don't really want to deal with the sexuality of a doll.
I agree with this! This is what I hate about these dolls, and the other My Scene Barbies too. I would much rather my dd have a regular Barbie, because at least they look adult. Not like any real adult, but not like a pre-teen either, which is what I don't like about the Bratz. They look like young, like fourteen year olds but dressed like they're looking to get laid. Even the "cute" ones.

I really hate how sexual clothes are for children and teenagers now. I really hate that if you are an adult woman, in your sexual prime, you are supposed to dress far more modestly and conservatively than a 13 year old. I really hate that if they have a TV show about SAHMs that are sexual, they have to look and dress like they're 15, otherwise no one will want to hear about their sexuality.

IMO, our society is sexually unhealthy, and sexualized toys are just another symbol of this.

BTW, I CANNOT believe they have thong panties at the Limited Too. What in the hell is the matter with a little girl having panty lines? And what little girl wants to wear a thong panty? Disgusting!

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#76 of 149 Old 12-21-2005, 03:23 AM
 
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my dd has wanted a thong since the 6th grade and I flat out refused to have them in my home. Well this year I started to find them in the laundry. She was buying them herself. If she had the extra cash on hand at the mall that is what she bought. She is just about to turn 15 now but it still freaks me out lol
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#77 of 149 Old 12-21-2005, 08:20 AM
 
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Wow, I m really surprised to find such controversy over this HERE. We are all entitled to our opinions....but this is a surprising thread. I would have assumed that the MDC crowd would be adamantly opposed to Bratz. Personally I am opposed for all the reasons above...luckily my 3 yr old doesn't even know wht they are! My 5 yr old does and whenver we see anything with them or Barbie he says "cover her eyes mom!: WHich I think is kinda cute. I will continue to watch this....be kind all!
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#78 of 149 Old 12-21-2005, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles Baudelaire
Please actually read what I said. It reflects poorly on anyone, really, when they comment upon something they have obviously either not read or have misread or are choosing to misread. I am assuming you have either chosen to misread my posts or were momentarily distracted and did not read it carefully -- the most flattering of the choices available to me.
It reflects poorly on anyone who says the reality of it is that a woman who wears tight clothes and has big boobs and wears make-up looks like a hooker.
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#79 of 149 Old 12-21-2005, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by dharmamama
I showed this to my dh and said, "Would you buy this doll for Ramona?" He looked at it and said, "The hooker doll? Bratz streetcorner ho?"

(And no, this was not in front of the children, they are in bed.)

Even the "cute" Bratz dolls someone listed are showing their midriffs.

OP, I would return the doll and either get a Groovy Girl or some art supplies!

Namaste!
Apparently you didn't see these Bratz dolls, so I will repost the link:



http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
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#80 of 149 Old 12-21-2005, 10:09 AM
 
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Backtracking now (sorry; I was offline for a while), but... Charles: I read your post completely. And I still felt like you were giving the miniskirt=tramp perspective a whole lot of leeway and not a lot of responsibility. It is not "the reality", it is a choice to see the world that way. That's all.
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#81 of 149 Old 12-21-2005, 10:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa
What bothers me far more than what a doll might or might not be wearing is teaching kids to call people names/assume bad things based on their attire.
Good point, Unschool.
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#82 of 149 Old 12-21-2005, 10:23 AM
 
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The good news is that the OP got her answer. This is a controversial issue toy that shouldn't just be generically given as a present to someone else's child.
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#83 of 149 Old 12-21-2005, 10:23 AM
 
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[QUOTE\]BTW, I CANNOT believe they have thong panties at the Limited Too. What in the hell is the matter with a little girl having panty lines? And what little girl wants to wear a thong panty? Disgusting![/QUOTE]


i have a friend who's daughter has them, apparently the DOLLS have thongs!!
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#84 of 149 Old 12-21-2005, 12:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MrsMoe
Apparently you didn't see these Bratz dolls, so I will repost the link:
Two of the four are showing their midriffs and the third is wearing a skirt so short that if she were a real person, you'd see her underwear.

Namaste!
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#85 of 149 Old 12-21-2005, 01:22 PM
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My daughter, who has a TV, computer, Game Cube and Ipod in her room has Bratz. Did you think it was possible to go that wrong in one sentence ? She never did Barbie and in fact rarely played with dolls at all. She has always been more of a build and crash it down girl. Two years ago, she got curious about them when her friends got into them. I let her get some because she asked and was at the time 10. For reference, they do not dress like the hookers in our hood. Yes, we really have them and drug dealers and gang bangers to boot. Hookers, where we live, tend to dress pretty normal. DD thinks they are very weird and not something she would aspire to be. And yes, I told her she woouldn't get past the front, back or side door dressed like that. We talked fairly openly about the message that sends to people when they see you looking like that. When her friends were over and did all played with the Bratz, it was pretty harmless. Let's go shopping, to the park, movies type stuff. Now, they sit in a box, unused. She does not hang out with those friends either, which is partly sad since they were all such good friends. They spend too much time talking about hair, nails, boys and gossip- according to dd. I think that had I made it a big issue and not let her have the stupid things in the house, it would have made her very resentful. And no I am not afraid of making my kid angry over issues that matter. This was just not a battle I felt needed to happen. I had to trust her enough to see the doll for what it was. She did. I guess the bottom line is, as parents we make judgement calls for our kids and what we are confortable letting them have. We are the ones that have to live them and so it should be ok if the parent says so (barring cases of abuse, neglect, ect). I know I would hate if someone said I was a bad mom for letting dd or ds do ???, even though I carefully thought it through. We are all, for the most part, trying to do the best we can doing the hardest job in the world- raising healthy, balanced children.


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#86 of 149 Old 12-21-2005, 01:23 PM
 
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I have been thinking about this some more and thinking about my daughter, who is almost 4. She currently loves the Magic Treehouse books about Jack and Annie. She has seen in the books that Annie wears pigtails, so she has told me many times to do her hair in pigtails so that she can "look like Annie." Why is it so much of a leap to think that my daughter would also want to dress like Annie? (In reality, she does, because Annie most often wears jeans and t-shirts.) In fact, when Annie travels through time, she wears clothes characteristic of the time period she is in, and my daughter gets out her play silks and and dress-up clothes and dresses up like Annie in China, Annie in the Arctic, Annie in Shakespeare's England. Why isn't it reasonable to think that a little girl who plays with Bratz would want to look like a Brat?

If I lived in a society where we all ran around in public naked, I'd be cool with my kid running around in public naked. But we live in a society that has sexualized breasts, midriffs, panties, short skirts, etc. While I don't particularly mind those styles (and indeed, my kids often play with their friends wearing just underwear), when I am out in public and around people I don't know and trust, I am not going to give them ANY chance to sexualize my daughter FOR ANY REASON.

When my daughter is old enough to make the decisions on how she dresses based on ALL the information, well, I'll step aside. But until then, I am not going to let my daughter be a tool of societal forces beyond her control and understanding.

Namaste!
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#87 of 149 Old 12-21-2005, 01:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dharmamama
I have been thinking about this some more and thinking about my daughter, who is almost 4. She currently loves the Magic Treehouse books about Jack and Annie. She has seen in the books that Annie wears pigtails, so she has told me many times to do her hair in pigtails so that she can "look like Annie." Why is it so much of a leap to think that my daughter would also want to dress like Annie? (In reality, she does, because Annie most often wears jeans and t-shirts.) In fact, when Annie travels through time, she wears clothes characteristic of the time period she is in, and my daughter gets out her play silks and and dress-up clothes and dresses up like Annie in China, Annie in the Arctic, Annie in Shakespeare's England. Why isn't it reasonable to think that a little girl who plays with Bratz would want to look like a Brat?
I agree wholeheartedly.
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#88 of 149 Old 12-21-2005, 02:38 PM
 
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I think all of those dolls in the links look over sexualizd. It is about more than how much skin is showing. it is about how tight the clothes are how they are cut what kind of makeup they are wearing, what expressions are in thier eys and on thier lips. It all sends a very clear messege. And I have no doubt that kids are equating those clothes with cool and wanting thowse clothes. It is about more than sex too. It is a whole unattractive attitude and the lifestyle thier accessories promote also go against our values. And there are lots of toys etc we won't give our children acess to. I doubt they even think twice about havnig one more toy. I prefer to protect thier innocence. nurture creative play. promote sweetness, respectful speech and kindness over bratty behavior. we value modesty in dress, movement and in our attitudes (flashy and boastful and possesion driven isn't our thing). we also value meaningful work over things like shopping and lazing about in lodges or cruising in fancy cars. So nothing about these dolls work with out family. \

. . . not to mention how long do you think it would be before we lost thier feet . . . .

If anyone is looking for a good alternative to this sort of thing that is both curte and affordable. I highly recomment the 8 inch Madeline dolls. The old ones are beter but the new ones are still better than anything else offered. They are comprable to brats in price and head size . and have fun accessories that aren't centered around high fashion, shopping or lazing about and there is nothing sexual about them

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#89 of 149 Old 12-21-2005, 02:46 PM
 
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It is about more than sex too. It is a whole unattractive attitude and the lifestyle thier accessories promote also go against our values.
:

Namaste!
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#90 of 149 Old 12-21-2005, 02:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dharmamama
I have been thinking about this some more and thinking about my daughter, who is almost 4. She currently loves the Magic Treehouse books about Jack and Annie. She has seen in the books that Annie wears pigtails, so she has told me many times to do her hair in pigtails so that she can "look like Annie." Why is it so much of a leap to think that my daughter would also want to dress like Annie? (In reality, she does, because Annie most often wears jeans and t-shirts.) In fact, when Annie travels through time, she wears clothes characteristic of the time period she is in, and my daughter gets out her play silks and and dress-up clothes and dresses up like Annie in China, Annie in the Arctic, Annie in Shakespeare's England. Why isn't it reasonable to think that a little girl who plays with Bratz would want to look like a Brat?
I wanted to stay out of this, but needed to reply to this.

It's not unreasonable, but you have to take it on a child by child basis. My child does not, in fact, like to copy anyone, she doesn't ask or even want to dress the way anyone else does, or have her hair done how someone else's is. She's not easily impressionable at all by things like that.

One child can take a 'doll' much differently than another. I don't think it's fair at all to push your own stereotypes and thoughts (this is directed to the general 'you', not anyone in particular), on ANY other family or ANYONE else's child. You don't know them, you DON'T know the child and you CANNOT compare how your child would act/react to how another's child would/will.

Do what you want in your own home for your own family, but don't go pushing others to be just like you.
MomBirthmomStepmom is offline  
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