Bratz Dolls? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums
First ... 3  4  5
The Childhood Years > Bratz Dolls?
TigerTail's Avatar TigerTail 02:18 PM 12-22-2005
i did want to expound on charles's comment about the penguin suit; i may put on a firefighter's hat, but that doesn't make me a firefighter, & yet it remains a firefighter's hat.

i am not saying everyone who puts on whore clothes is a whore; dressup is fun, & if you are having fun, go for it. i've had fun in shiny red vinyl & f-me pumps. but they are still whore clothes, whether they are on me, you, your child, bratz, lil' kim, or a literal whore. that's not a value judgement, that's acknowledging the uniform.

ps rootz, the integrity line of dolls that makes the amazing and fabulous 'tariq' has dark- skinned and natural dolls- http://www.mfd.net/store/images/larg...ll%20sheet.jpg. not saying much about the outfits, but at least you can buy her a nice respectable barbie office suit that fits.

pps when i say 'fugly', or that there is a beautiful world out there, i am not insisting on the barbie standard of beauty- i would love to see more diversity of all kinds represented, inc size. i had the biggest race & sex assortment of barbie-like dolls i could for my dd (and god knows we had the obligatory assortment of amputees.) if they looked like real people i would see the beauty in them. but bratz are disfigured monstrosities. there is no beauty to see in them, even if they *were* wearing amish clothes. this is my completely objective opinion.

pps btw, has anyone else seen their vile cartoon? feh!

Charles Baudelaire's Avatar Charles Baudelaire 02:37 PM 12-22-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by tara
Sure, sex workers dress to accentuate their sexuality. But so do I sometimes. So do lots of people. My point is that it is not a given that the comparison will be made, and to insist that women who dress provocatively look like prostitutes seems shallow and simple to me. imo, the onus is on the viewer to think more critically, not on the scantily-clad woman to prove her virtues.
I would say it's a given depending on two major things:

1. How provocatively the woman is dressed relative to the standards of her culture or community, and

2. How strict the community or culture tends to be on women's dress & what constitutes "provocative" clothing.

Women in this culture who dress quite provocatively relative to the general standard of women's dress in this country will tend to be compared in their dress to prostitutes -- no, not by everyone, but at least by some, maybe even by many. It may not be politically correct to do; it may not be politically correct to say so. In an ideal world, Tara, I would heartily agree that the onus is on the viewer to keep an open mind -- honi soit qui mal y pense, and all that -- but in the unfortunately un-ideal world in which we live, a woman does run the risk of being compared to (or taken for) a prostitute if she dresses provocatively relative to the culture in which she finds herself.

I think it's disingenuous -- or idealistic, at least -- to pretend otherwise or act as if it were not so in defiance of reality. That kind of PC-blindness can cause women to believe that they're safer than they are, less apt to be the victims of sexual harrassment or violence than they are. And before anyone jumps on the much-overused bandwagon screeching, "You're blaming the victim!!!" allow me to say that no, it's not the woman's "fault" if she's harrassed or victimized because of her clothing. I believe that can happen even if you're dressed in a burka. However, I believe that the risk is increased by what a person -- not just a woman, FWIW -- does, wears, and goes. If a person were to walk in a neighborhood where he was not a member of a welcome group and wears clothing associated with an unwelcome group and he gets victimized, it's not his "fault," but he's increased his risk.

Whether we like it or not, our dress does say a great deal about our personalities, professions, social classes, or possession of money, even our musical tastes and ethnic heritage. On this board, the people here constantly walk a fine line between political correctness and hypocrisy where it's all well and good if you're a member of Group X (let's say) to wear clothing and attributes commonly associated with Group X as a proud emblem of your culture and values...but let anyone dare associate you with Group X because of your clothes and they're racist, sexist, or just plain prejudiced.

In the final analysis, you can wear what you choose and I welcome that choice. However, no matter what you wear, people do and will make judgments about you and take actions toward you based on those judgments. Fair? No. Real? Yeah.
Charles Baudelaire's Avatar Charles Baudelaire 02:44 PM 12-22-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by tara
Sorry, lactationmom, you don't get to corner the market on 'strong morals and convictions'. I hate these dolls and wouldn't buy them, but public sexuality isn't a problem for me. What is a problem for me is someone else deciding what is moral for everyone. Not your job.
Did I miss something, Tara? Where was anyone -- Lactationmom, me, Susyblue, whoever -- "deciding what is moral for everyone"? Frankly, I think morals are decided by the community in which a person lives and are generally decided collectively -- the community's values being an aggregate of the spectrum of values available in the culture. In short, no one single person "decid[es] what is moral for everyone" in reality -- nor on this message board.
mammastar2's Avatar mammastar2 02:58 PM 12-22-2005
I believe tara's comment was in response to another poster's note that it is impossible to "make sense" to someone who believes in "public sexuality" if one has "strong morals and convictions." The logical implication from that would be that someone who "believes in public sexuality" lacks "strong morals and convictions" and that these are objectively determinable for everyone.

Just an interjection.

You all could stop sometime, though - I'm guessing the poor OP got her answer and will either (a) return the freakin' doll already because she never wants to have to deal with this again or (b) feel mighty thankful that the people she knows in real life don't get quite all het up about stuff the way people here seem to.
dharmamama's Avatar dharmamama 03:06 PM 12-22-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammastar2
feel mighty thankful that the people she knows in real life don't get quite all het up about stuff the way people here seem to.
I doubt most of us get all "het up" (never heard that! I like it!) either. There's a big difference between how we discuss and debate our opinions here and what we actually do and talk about in our non-computer lives.

I know I have never had a heated discussion about Bratz doll IRL!

Namaste!
mammastar2's Avatar mammastar2 03:25 PM 12-22-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmamama
I doubt most of us get all "het up" (never heard that! I like it!) either. There's a big difference between how we discuss and debate our opinions here and what we actually do and talk about in our non-computer lives.

I know I have never had a heated discussion about Bratz doll IRL!

Namaste!
...oh, I don't know...just the other day, I football-tackled a mom at toys-r-us who was on her way to the checkout with a Bratz doll for her kid! She's being de-programmed at a compound run by more enlightened parents as we speak.

Okay, now I'm being silly.
Charles Baudelaire's Avatar Charles Baudelaire 03:27 PM 12-22-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
I find this thread highly offensive against women's rights, mostly due to the comments of a MAN who has yet to acknowledge women as an EQUAL. Slut and whore is such a SEXIST term. As if women don't have the rights to sexuality versus a MAN.

Oh, Mrs. Moe, caught in your own hypocrisy about assumptions and outward appearances.

Guess what, hon? I, "Charles Baudelaire," have a vagina. Always have had, too. So much for your much-vaunted ideas about not judging based on outward appearances. This is really very funny!

Quote:
I'm walking away, because I have had ENOUGH of people like YOU ALL, this forum is whacked. I've never met a more judgemental group of people in my entire LIFE.
Isn't that...ummmm...a little judgmental of you?
Wolfmeis's Avatar Wolfmeis 03:31 PM 12-22-2005
Maybe you should be ashamed that you are getting crazed and angry about an online discussion about VINYL DOLLS. This doll is the product of a multi-national corporation, run by a very misogynistic man (look it up), and is mass-marketed to "7-13 yos."

Whether you personally identify with one of these dolls (ew), my objection to them is that they are aimed--branded-- at very young girls. ANYTHING done this way, from My Little Ponies to Strawberry Shortcake, is under fire from me.

I will dress as attractively as I want, and I wear make up as well. I have a rack to envy and I LIKE IT. When I am trim, I can be quite smokin' ; that does not mean I want my small daughter doing that. There is a difference between the CHILD and the WOMAN. These dolls not only blur but completely OBLITERATE that line. Did READ the package inserts posted here? they could be wearing PRAIRIE GEAR and I would still object to this line of dolls. It goes far beyond mere appearances.

It's not just judgmental-- it's discerning. I don't mindlessly buy crap off the shelf because "oh that's cute." Marketing is a mega million dollar business for a REASON, and it is your job as a parent to screen this stuff for your children.
tara's Avatar tara 04:15 PM 12-22-2005
Ugh. I'm about done with this thread. This horse has been beaten post-mortem, and I'm ready to agree to disagree. I don't really think our opinions are that divergent, Charles. I also don't think I'm 'pc-blind', I just feel a personal responsibility to look beyond appearances and I don't think that's an outrageous request to ask of others (whereas you seem comfortable with the fact that judgement occurs, even unfairly. Correct me if I'm wrong.). And the assumption of skimpy clothing=sex worker is based in some puritanical and controlling views of female sexuality, imho. You can love strutting your stuff without selling it.

Just wanted to add something. There was an ad a while back in the Seattle newpaper 'Real Change' (a weekly put out by the homeless community, sold by homeless folks to generate income). It pictured a Seattle councilperson and a homeless person who had switched clothing, with a caption something like, "Which one is homeless?" It was an eye-opener. You realize that a councilperson dressed in rags would get thrown out of restaurants, would get harrassed on the street... And putting a homeless person in a suit just might get him a job interview. How is this ok? How is this not something to fight? I know that I just reinforced your position that judgement happens. I guess I'm not arguing whether judgement happens, I'm arguing that just saying it's 'real' feels like a statement of acceptance, like it's just human nature. Right or wrong, it's going to happen. Well, when it comes to misogyny, I can't stop there.

Also, there is the finest of fine lines between blaming a victim of sexual assault and saying she 'increased her risk'. Doesn't that imply at least a bit of collusion in her assault? I don't like it. But, call me pc-blind.

Finally, I will state again that these dolls drive me batty. I wouldn't buy them for anyone, in part because they seem to promote a very mainstream view of female sexuality (that may or may not be appropriate for very young girls). But, I can't hop on board the modesty train. I don't like the leap from this train of thought to 'I don't want my girl to think it's ok to dress like a whore'. That is all.
Charles Baudelaire's Avatar Charles Baudelaire 06:27 PM 12-22-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by tara


Finally, I will state again that these dolls drive me batty. I wouldn't buy them for anyone, in part because they seem to promote a very mainstream view of female sexuality (that may or may not be appropriate for very young girls). But, I can't hop on board the modesty train. I don't like the leap from this train of thought to 'I don't want my girl to think it's ok to dress like a whore'. That is all.
I think I see a point at which we can meet. I find the mainstream view of sexuality to be very demeaning to women because I think it encourages women to view themselves primarily (or even exclusively) as sexual objects, which is the ultimate misogyny: in that viewpoint, all women are p***ies with a pulse. To have this viewpoint hammered into the heads of women from the time they're seven or so seems to be a vicious collusion between misogyny and its close friend, marketing.
Wolfmeis's Avatar Wolfmeis 06:33 PM 12-22-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Baudelaire
I think I see a point at which we can meet. I find the mainstream view of sexuality to be very demeaning to women because I think it encourages women to view themselves primarily (or even exclusively) as sexual objects, which is the ultimate misogyny: in that viewpoint, all women are p***ies with a pulse. To have this viewpoint hammered into the heads of women from the time they're seven or so seems to be a vicious collusion between misogyny and its close friend, marketing.

BADABING!
tara's Avatar tara 06:40 PM 12-22-2005
Yup, we're in agreement on that point. Whew!
lilyka's Avatar lilyka 07:21 PM 12-22-2005
Ok so what your saying . . .

is that some people really have strong feelings about this doll . . . .

and perhaps before giving them as a gift you might want to run it past the parents? cool. got it. thanks for the input.
Wolfmeis's Avatar Wolfmeis 07:30 PM 12-22-2005

Fuamami's Avatar Fuamami 07:45 PM 12-22-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by tara
Ugh. I'm about done with this thread. This horse has been beaten post-mortem, and I'm ready to agree to disagree. I don't really think our opinions are that divergent, Charles. I also don't think I'm 'pc-blind', I just feel a personal responsibility to look beyond appearances and I don't think that's an outrageous request to ask of others (whereas you seem comfortable with the fact that judgement occurs, even unfairly. Correct me if I'm wrong.). And the assumption of skimpy clothing=sex worker is based in some puritanical and controlling views of female sexuality, imho. You can love strutting your stuff without selling it.
I agree with this, tara. But in that case, I think these dolls should be sold at nightclubs and sex shops, not to little girls. You can strut your stuff, give it away, sell it, whatever you want, if you are an adult. If you are in the 7-13 y.o. demographic, IMO, you should not really even know what "your stuff" is, at least not in more than an abstract way. And I think little girls wearing such provacative clothes without really knowing why one would want to be provacative is, sadly, very dangerous, in part because it normalizes an association of little girls and sex.
Teensy's Avatar Teensy 09:26 PM 12-22-2005
I was invited to a gag gift party last week. For my gag gift, I bought one of the Steppin' Out Bratz dolls (Yasmin) and made up new packaging for it with the label "Happy Hooker Doll". On the back I put a bunch of hooker quotes (from movies, etc.) and cut-and-pasted pictures of other Bratz products (for example a picture of the Bratz convertible with the words "Pimpmobile - Pimp sold separately"). The doll, with her mesh see-through top and micro-mini skirt with very high heels, looked every bit as much as a doll designed to look like a hooker could have.

I had a blast making the gag gift packaging.

I will not be buying these dolls for my DD and hope no one else does.
lactationmom's Avatar lactationmom 11:06 PM 12-22-2005

TigerTail's Avatar TigerTail 11:29 PM 12-22-2005
i have to say, reading about ms c.b.'s ostensible penis gave me the biggest laugh i've had all day.

chauvinist! (shaking fist)
RubyWild's Avatar RubyWild 12:25 AM 12-23-2005
*talking to myself, probably* As I've said before, I have no problem with women's sexuality, what I do have a problem with is this very narrow, unrealistic, twisted image of sexuality. The more I look at these dolls, the more inappropriate for children they appear. They do look like the prostitutes I've seen on the streets of major cities, and while I am not trying to put women down who are in the "sex" industry, I don't want my small daughter playing with dolls that look like they work in the sex industry. I'd rather she play with dolls that look like ordinary people/kids.

And, btw, Charles B. is a woman.
Kathryn's Avatar Kathryn 02:19 PM 12-23-2005
Ok, first off, about CB being a man... :

*ahem* ok, I'll continue here.

I see no problems with the bratz dolls, but I wouldn't buy them for other children just as I wouldn't buy other "brand" things like that because they kid may not like them. I'm totally with Unschoolinma on this. I don't really like the bratz dolls, they skeeve me out. BUT, if dd wants one, she can have one. :
cynthia mosher's Avatar cynthia mosher 03:35 PM 12-26-2005
I've removed a few posts that were personally pointed and inappropriate and also removed a few quotes of now removed posts. Let's please keep the discussion civil. Thanks!
UUMom's Avatar UUMom 05:44 PM 12-26-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMoe
Since a pervious poster seemed to dig around to find a Bratz doll with black boots and a short black skirt here are some super cute Bratz dolls:


http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

And like I said, the ones my daughter has, the clothes are perfectly "acceptable." But IMO, my family isnt' Amish, and therefore, clothes are clothes, and when she is a teenager and she wears a short skirt and some lipstick, I'm not going to wig out on her and call her a hooker either.

LOL! I had *no* idea there was a Bowling Bratz. How funny!

I have never seen my children negatively affected by any toys they have owned. I might not like the look of some, but I've never seen any 'bad behaviors' or anything. My girls don't like dolls at all, but I also don't throw away or forbid toys. I think tossing toys kids like, and/or forbidding things isn't helpful to healthy growth where kids can trust themselves, even if some of their toys don't meet certain parental expectations. Why make a kid feel bad about a *toy*?? I think these sorts of parental powe plays can lead to sneaky behavior, and more sadly, emotional distance between children and parents.
TigerTail's Avatar TigerTail 06:09 PM 12-28-2005
mrs moe: when she is a teenager and she wears a short skirt and some lipstick, I'm not going to wig out on her and call her a hooker either.

that's nice, very good of you.

but, um, are you implying that those of us who think those are some tacky-ass hooker clothes would do that? i managed to get through an the entire teenhood of a my dd without 'calling her a hooker'. (and no, we are not amish, & my dd dresses quite fashionably.) i think the 'wigging out' comment is kind of rich, as those of us who think those look like tacky-ass hooker clothes are staying considerably calmer than the opposition.

part of this is semantics, i'll wager- i am not thinking, 'whore!' as in an insult, but 'whore' as in job description. some people *do* do this for a living, and it is kind of negating their life experiences to just act as if they were merely a term of opprobium without further meaning.

whores are people: raise children, go out to eat, go to school, cry when they are sad, laugh when they are happy. and yes, put on the uniform where it is appropriate. whores can wear prada if they can afford it and it is practical for their place of business, & it still won't be whore clothing. elementary school teachers can wear pleather minis, & they will be elementary school teachers wearing street hooker wear.

you are confusing an accurate description of clothing, in language everyone understands, with judgement of actual living women. can you separate the clothes from the person wearing them? calling your daughter a hooker as an insult (!) is radically different in my ears than saying 'that is one trashy looking pair of silver lame hot pants on that ho-lookin' bratz doll', lol.

if you are concerned about those unsubtle enough to get the difference, do you think making it unpc for us to describe certain clothes out loud will fix their mind-set that women wearing such clothes are necessarily rapable women, women no one will care about? a world full of various branches of fundamentalists who would beat me with sticks for wearing some of the dresses i have worn out dancing, and you are worried that a few mamas on mdc are damaging the cause of women's rights? really, lighten up. we are not the taliban (or jerry falwell ). and we do not call our daughters names no matter what they are wearing.
Mom4tot's Avatar Mom4tot 06:24 PM 12-28-2005
Do you think the horses look like sluts? 'Cuz we just bought one as a gift.


WITHOUT EVEN ASKING
TigerTail's Avatar TigerTail 07:05 PM 12-28-2005
what's it wearing?
Mom4tot's Avatar Mom4tot 07:08 PM 12-28-2005
Just a saddle and a bridle : Shocking!
oldcrunchymom's Avatar oldcrunchymom 09:00 PM 12-28-2005
Okay, well apparently everyone didn't receive my telepathic "no more Barbies" memo this year because my daughter received a Bratz tennis doll, a Bratz baby, and a My Scene Barbie. I have to say, the Bratz are fugly, but on a scale of Ho-osity they can't hold a candle to the My Scene Barbie. In fact, my brother and aunt spent about half an hour on Christmas making up a history and dialog for "Ho Barbie." Ah, these special family times warm the heart.

My daughter likes all of them and put them in the "Barbie drawer" where all her other dolls are stacked like cordwood in a tableau reminiscent of a Peter Greenaway outtake. She seems oblivious to the blonde glittery fugliness.

P.S. Does anyone know how many Barbies can congregate in a small enclosed space without having to report it to insurance?
UUMom's Avatar UUMom 09:12 PM 12-28-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by lckrause

P.S. Does anyone know how many Barbies can congregate in a small enclosed space without having to report it to insurance?


Sounds like you'll need a variance... i doubt you have enough bathrooms.
lilyka's Avatar lilyka 02:54 AM 12-29-2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by lckrause
In fact, my brother and aunt spent about half an hour on Christmas making up a history and dialog for "Ho Barbie." Ah, these special family times warm the heart.
:

ahhhh this is what the holidays are all about. it warms my heart it does.
First ... 3  4  5

Up