My 5 y/o old touched his cousin's privates - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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Old 04-20-2006, 12:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Marsupialmom

I also would doubt the "value" in immediately calling the police in this situation. In many situations you can have as much interaction with the kids and parents. Imagine the impact on the 3 year old and the 5 year old if police got involved in something that might have been childishness with out medical and mental evolution? This in a situation were communications can and should be happening. What about on the chance the 5 yr old boy is being molested and this caused his sexual curiosity? Do you think he is going to be more willing to talk or deal with it if he has a police officer mishandle or ignore the possibility? How afriad and embarrassed is the 3 year old going to become if she sees mom and daddy talking to the police about her injuriy? Not saying there isn't a time and place for it but should be done with caution.
I looked over this whole thread and can't find one post suggesting anyone call the police.

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Old 04-20-2006, 12:24 PM
 
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Oh, I agree that she should be taken to the doctor.

*However* in my (possibly paranoid) mind, that may just open a can of worms. Unless you've got a doc you can really trust, I'd be worried that the doc--being a mandated reporter--would report the case to CPS or the police. Legally, the parents are supposed to be the child's protector, and from a legal standpoint, they "let" this happen to her. Not to mention how they may treat the OP's 5yo ds. I don't agree with this at all, but I'm telling you they way it is sometimes.

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Old 04-20-2006, 12:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CookieMonsterMommy
Oh, I agree that she should be taken to the doctor.

*However* in my (possibly paranoid) mind, that may just open a can of worms. Unless you've got a doc you can really trust, I'd be worried that the doc--being a mandated reporter--would report the case to CPS or the police. Legally, the parents are supposed to be the child's protector, and from a legal standpoint, they "let" this happen to her. Not to mention how they may treat the OP's 5yo ds. I don't agree with this at all, but I'm telling you they way it is sometimes.

Kelly
I was wondering the same thing... Any update on how things are going? Hope everyone is ok.
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Old 04-20-2006, 03:29 PM
 
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Exploring each others bodies is normal.
NO. Exploring your own body is perfectly normal and acceptable. Hurting another childs genitals is not ok. It's not developmentally appropriate and it's sexual abuse, at ANY age. I can't believe the reactions here condoning this. I'm glad you're getting help for him. If possible, you could provide a few sessions for your niece as well.
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Old 04-20-2006, 11:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I guess I didn't update the board on this particular fact: When I spoke to my sil the next day, she said there was "a bit of blood on the toilet paper." This is quite a bit different than the initial image I was left with after speaking to my mother in law. I believe it is quite possible that her labia simply got scratched by my DSs fingernail. The skin on my DD's labia can bleed from vigorous wiping, so it seems that this could be a possibility. I think labial adhesions are an interesting possibility. My daughter had them, they certainly aren't uncommon.

It also needs to be clear that this child did not appear to be injured in any way at the time that the play occurred. It was only later, when she tried to urinate that she experienced pain. This would be consistent with a scratch on her labia. My DS had no idea he hurt her. He asked if he could look at her vagina, she said yes, and he did so. When he found out she had been hurt he was very upset and felt horrible.

As I mentioned before, I suggested that they see the pediatrician. I actually felt fairly certain the she would alleviate some of the fear and anxiety that the parents are feeling. I am not sure whether they brought her or not. In an interesting twist, my husband is close friends with their pediatrician's husband. They have worked together for many years. I don't know her well, because her schedule doesn't allow a lot of time for socializing, but we have spent time together.

I continue to be quite surprised by the stance that this is "child sexual abuse." I have plenty of experience with sexual abuse, as I mentioned before, and this is far from it. Were the authorities to be involved, as someone else mentioned, it would only be due to 'parental neglect', and not 'abuse' from one child to another. If the child abuse hotline were to be called, I am certain that they would not accept the call. This does not meet the legal definition of child sexual abuse, nor does it meet the common sense definition, in my mind.

I highly suggest that people visit the sites posted by Marsupialmom or visit the following sites:

http://www.socialhealtheducation.org....html#Fromage5

http://www.earlychildhood.com/Articl...=Article&A=120

These resources clearly indicate that it is within the normal parameters of child developement for children to play sexual games with one another.

For me and my DS, the point that is the most important is the lack of communication by my bil and sil. We have not heard from them and I don't exptect that we will. What their child is learning is that when she tells the truth, she loses her people that are important in her life. What my DS is learning is that you can't make a mistake and feel remorse and be forgiven. It seems to be some very sad and unneccesary lessons, indeed.
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Old 04-21-2006, 12:31 AM
 
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I'm just sorry that the whole thing happened.. I hope this all heals over and you're able to find peace and move on.

~e, wife to my sweet T , mama to my turtleman (12) , sunshine (9 ), and monkey (6)
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Old 04-21-2006, 01:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by zen-ozz
I I believe it is quite possible that her labia simply got scratched by my DSs fingernail.
That should not have been in her vagina. I think there is more to this story. A teeny scratch does not explain her inability to urinate. No way.


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Originally Posted by zen-ozz
These resources clearly indicate that it is within the normal parameters of child developement for children to play sexual games with one another.
What you are explaining resulted in a child being injured and calling it a game seems to downplay that fact.

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Originally Posted by zen-ozz
What their child is learning is that when she tells the truth, she loses her people that are important in her life. What my DS is learning is that you can't make a mistake and feel remorse and be forgiven. It seems to be some very sad and unneccesary lessons, indeed.
I understand that you have experience with these things. As parents, we are not always able to be contentious objectors when it comes to our children. It's a natural reaction to protect your child but it's also important to consider the victim.
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Old 04-21-2006, 10:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by my~hearts~light
NO. Exploring your own body is perfectly normal and acceptable. Hurting another childs genitals is not ok. It's not developmentally appropriate and it's sexual abuse, at ANY age. I can't believe the reactions here condoning this. I'm glad you're getting help for him. If possible, you could provide a few sessions for your niece as well.
I agree.

Yes..sexual exploration is normal..but there is a HUGE difference between a 5 year old and a 3 year old socially. Looking at my own 3 yr old DD, I don't think she would understand that someone sticking their finger in her vagina is "just a game". We were at the ER recently and she became frightened and confused when the doctor suddenly unzipped her pants to feel her abdomen without asking. But just being 3 she didn't know to say "NO" or "I'm uncomfortable with this."

I agree with others that getting the police involved is probably not the best idea and you have to be careful with explaning what happened to any doc who examine the girl. But the incident should not be dismissed as harmless play.
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Old 04-21-2006, 11:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by CookieMonsterMommy
Huh? Your hymen is INSIDE your vagina. You can spread your "lips" all you want, it wouldn't touch the inside of the vaginal walls, where the hymen is. Go try it out in the bathroom--spread your labia as far as you can without causing pain (or with, if you're that curious...although I don't advise intentionally hurting your yoni), and concentrate on how your vagina feels. You shouldn't really notice the tugging inside the vagina at all.

For her hymen to have been broken or ripped, there would have had to have been penetration of some sort, which there may or may not have been. But a hymen doesn't rip by "simply having her vaginal lips spread".
Are you sure you know where the hymen is? Maybe I'm just missunderstanding your wording, but they hymen is not INSIDE the vagina, it covers the opening to the vagina, and is generaly conected to the inner labia ("lips")/surrounding tissue. These links might clear it up (WARNING: explicit images of genitalia):
http://www.the-clitoris.com/f_html/hymen.htm (really clear & complete info)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymen
(no explicit photos): http://www.healthystrokes.com/hymengallery.html

Many girls have their hymen partially torn/stretched by doing gymnastics (esp. the splits), riding horses, or riding a bike, all of wich do not include penitration of any kind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieMonsterMommy
FTR, you can have bleeding just from spreading the labia. I've seen women with such dry labia and surrounding tissue, that just opening their legs wide for a vag. exam caused them to bleed. Sure, it was only a little blood, and these were usually women going through menopause or BFing. But we don't know how much blood there was, so it seems possible (not likely, but possible) that this little girl maybe had her legs open for the playing, maybe her labia dried out being exposed to the air, then the little boy spread them, and that resulted in tiny tears in the mucous membranes.
I think this is very likely. It makes sense that if this women experience labial bleeding during menopause or BFing (both times when hormones are not at normal levels) that a (very) pre-pubescent girl could/would experience a similar thing. I also think the possibility that the OP's DS might have accidentally scratched her labia is extremely likely. Like she said, it would cause pain upon urination, and would show a little blood on the TP. Makes perfect sense. Regardless, I think the idea that this was "sexual assault" is ridiculous! there are MANY ways this little girl could have gotten hurt (esp. those above), and all of them completely innocent. I babysat a little girl who once came home from pre-school and pulled down her pants to show my the blood on the sanitary pad she had on, and told me about how she fell off her bicycle and hurt herself (of course I immediately had her pull up her pants and reminded her about private parts, etc. and gave her my condolences about her injury.). Would this be considered sexual assault? No. Yes, I realize there is a difference between a bike injury, and an injury after two little kids playing "doctor" but nevertheless, the idea that this incident could be considered sexual assault is ludicrous.

~Kelsie
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Old 04-21-2006, 01:23 PM
 
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That still doesn't explain inability to urinate.
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Old 04-21-2006, 01:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by numom499
I think most 5 year olds know better than to touch someone elses "private area". I would be horrified if a 5 yo boy spread my daughters labia apart. PLease definitely see a therapist for your son. At what age does it become not okay to you? 5 1-2? 6? 6.5? 7? Very scary indeed.
Hugs to your niece.
I absoultly disagree. I have vivid memories of beimg 5 or 6 and playing doctor - we did things like spread our labia apart all the time too look inside and explore each others bodies. There is nothing abnormal about that.

I wonder if the hypersexualization of our culture and our children is causing this oversensitivation to a normal childhood development.

To the OP what a difficult time for your family - I feel for your little one.
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Old 04-21-2006, 01:58 PM
 
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Well, of course if you did it, it must be perfectly acceptable.
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Old 04-21-2006, 02:30 PM
 
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okay, everyone take a deep breath. this is a sensitive topic but i think we should all respect each other. we must remember that all that is being done on this board is speculations and none of us were there, no one is effected by the advise they give out except the OP and her family and most of us arent experts (OP please remember that).
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Old 04-21-2006, 05:24 PM
 
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My breathing is fine, thankyouverymuch.

It does not good to anyone to tell her that it's ok and we're all so sorry her son is upset.

I'm not saying that he's a bad kid or to call the police and I hope it has not been received that way. I'm saying that the concern needs to be first for the child that was hurt. Her parents have every right to be enraged! It's important to reflect on how you'd feel if the shoe was on the other foot.
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Old 04-21-2006, 05:54 PM
 
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Nobody is unconcerned about the little girl or surprised her parents are upset. There is nothing the OP can do except give that family the space they need while they process this unfortunate incident. Please let this thread die now .

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Old 04-21-2006, 09:01 PM
 
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The term "inability to urinate" seems to be vague in this context... It's not clear whether she actually could not urinate, or complained of pain when she did.

A scratch could obviously cause stinging, leading to crying etc. Of course it would not make her actually unable to pee, but it sounds like that's not what actually happened. It sounds more like the little girl freaked out when she went to the bathroom and it hurt. Of course I wasn't there so I'm making assumptions, but it does sound like the extent of the injury was exagerrated at first.

If she was actually physically unable to urinate a much greater trauma would have had to happen. And I would hope the child would have been taken to a doctor, as that would be a serious problem.

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Old 04-21-2006, 09:41 PM
 
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Unsubbing now. It's become rather obvious what was intended here and I will not participate in it.
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Old 04-21-2006, 10:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zen-ozz
For me and my DS, the point that is the most important is the lack of communication by my bil and sil. We have not heard from them and I don't exptect that we will.
I guess I am wondering why it is up to them to call you? Maybe you could send them a letter or email? You could ask how their dd is doing. You could also explain how terrible ds feels and how he would really like to apologize, but understand if their dd needs some time. You could also let them know that your ds has been very curious about anatomy after it was explained that a baby comes out of a vagina. You could also mention any steps you are taking to see that this doesn't happen again.

I truely do feel for you. But at this point, I think it is up to you to contact them-- not the other way around.

As for if this is normal behavior... I have no idea. I only know that if ds did this when he was 5 (especially after the first time) I would be very concerned. Good luck.
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Old 04-21-2006, 10:03 PM
 
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Unsubbing now. It's become rather obvious what was intended here and I will not participate in it.
I'm curious, what was intended?
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Old 04-21-2006, 11:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I guess I am wondering why it is up to them to call you?
Thanks Cloverlove. I actually have called them twice and my husband called them once. I called them back the night that the incident occurred to offer my sincerest apologies and to let them know that I was taking it very seriously. I called the next day to see how neice is doing and to express that DS was very concerned that she was hurt. And DH called today (at my request) to again see how they were all doing (sil could not talk because she had company and as far as I know has not called back).

I agree it would be good to let them know what steps I have taken with DS (and DD for that matter) in terms of ensuring this doesn't happen again. But at this point I feel like it is best to give them time. We have reached out and now is time to wait.

I agree with PPs who suggest it may be time to let this thread die. I really am thankful to all for your help through this tough time for us. I feel like DS will be ok and I hope that our neice is okay and the relationships heal.
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Old 04-25-2006, 05:13 PM
 
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redundant

OP I agree with you on all counts.
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Old 09-15-2013, 06:28 PM
 
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I am dealing with a nearly exact situation right now, from the other parents (in-laws) perspective.

 

I am totally surprised by the many posters here in total support of this being "normal" behavior. Perhaps it is easy to call this "normal" for the boy who decided to satisfy his curiosities, despite being recently told not to touch others' privates. What about the experience for the 3 year old girl? She most likely looked up to the older cousin and didn't realize that she was uncomfortable with the situation until all was done. Is it considered "normal" for a 3 year old girl to have her genitalia explored by someone other than herself? No, it is not normal for her.

 

I think in situations like these, it is SO important to separate the individual experiences for the involved children. In many cases, they did not share in the same experience. For him, he was just curious, and meant no harm. For her? Chances are that she was confused, felt led into the situation, and now has a lasting impression of discomfort. Just because he meant no harm to her DOES NOT mean he did no harm to her. She may be desensitized to the importance of privacy. She may be confused and think that it is normal for older children to touch her privates. She, God-forbid, may now "play doctor" with another child, thinking it is acceptable, only to perpetuate harm under the guise of "exploring each others bodies".

 

I allow each of my children to explore their own bodies privately. I expect it. I am also in support of calling this "normal", if it is the first time, and the child has not yet had the "boundaries" talk. I absolutely do not think it's "normal" if all children involved do not have a positive experience that satisfies curiosity. If a child leaves a "doctor" session feeling sad and violated, who are we as adults to call what was done to her "normal"?

 

What about some respect for the young girls' innocence and privacy?

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