3 yo still in diapers, help me undestand - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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#121 of 201 Old 09-26-2006, 06:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Stayathomemommy View Post
I agree with MamaInTheBoonies maybe he just needs some encouragement to start PL. I am not saying he should be completely potty trained yet but he should be started by now.
Because you and MitB, and the others suggesting it on this thread know this boy better than his PARENTS who have said they are following his cues? :

What if she decided he did or did not need to be eating solids? Would that be an appropriate thing for her to be trying to introduce on her time table or the parents?

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#122 of 201 Old 09-26-2006, 10:37 PM
 
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I agree with MamaInTheBoonies maybe he just needs some encouragement to start PL. I am not saying he should be completely potty trained yet but he should be started by now.
I guess I am wondering what "encouragement" and "be started" means. Field trip to the toilet? Tell him what poop and pee is? Introduce the concept of underwear?

I'm just having a difficult time imagining a (typically developing) 3 yo who does not know those things, and who has never had a conversation with a caretaker about diapering vs pottying. A 3 yo in a literate family who has never been read a book on pottying. A 3 yo who hasn't figured out that other people use the potty. If a 3 yo is not yet "ready" to sit on a potty (ready being defined by the parent), I am going to assume the parent has a good reason for believing so!
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#123 of 201 Old 09-26-2006, 11:15 PM
 
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I understand that it grosses you out, but honestly, if you were my child care provider and called me to come pick up my child because he had pooped, that would be the last day you would care for him.
ITA
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#124 of 201 Old 09-26-2006, 11:24 PM
 
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This is supposed to be a gentle discipline, child led parenting site. My child is FAR more important to me than the number of diapers he contributed to a landfill. No, I am not proud that we did not use cloth diapers or EC from day one, but at the time of his birth I did what I knew how to do. Believing 100% that my son, & many of the kids mentioned in this thread, would have been emotionally harmed by forcing them out of pullups is NOT a "ridiculous notion." It is a fact. I know my son. You do not.
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Well, here we differ. As the earth is more important for my family. Without the earth, we will die. The earth can live without us, but we cannot live without the earth.
I agree with Joesmom.
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#125 of 201 Old 09-27-2006, 10:50 AM
 
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boys are just different.
you can't keep them on the same page as girls.
on EVERY level, from potty learning to education.

i think on average boys are about 3 when they learn.
mine was 3.3
i have a 2 yo son now.. and he thinks the potty is a game.
i won't even attempt until close to 3.

but i do wonder if my dd will learn sooner then that.

don't fret.
try and gain some comfort with it.
you can't help how you feel, and i understand that.
but realize that you raised girls, so this boy thing is all new water for you!

and frankly, if PL is the only issue thats cropped up with caring for a 2 yo boy, after having had only girls, then you are lucky.
becasue 2 and 3 yo boys are a special thing, um.... well, yeah, i will stick with that word. SPECIAL.

you might get him to pee on the potty.
by casually mentioning it afte ryou ahve changed him, and before he get a fesh diaper put on( this is when my 2yo likes to sit on the potty).
but i would not push the issue.
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#126 of 201 Old 09-27-2006, 03:54 PM
 
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that boys are different thing is fine and dandy until it's a girl that doesn't potty learn before some prescribed time, sit still or who talks late, or....

Really, I had the experience of my dd1 talking late. People repeatedly said, "Well boys just sometimes get it later." Umm, how is that helping?

*Kids* are all different. They have their own needs and timetables. It seems like it's just not that hard to respect that.
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#127 of 201 Old 09-27-2006, 04:00 PM
 
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[QUOTE=fuller2;6099025]My son started using the potty when he was about 18 months old, and I also have been occasionally babysitting 3-year-olds who still use diapers.

At the risk of inviting much displeasure (and knowing that my experience is unusual in our culture) I have to say that it seems that kids potty-learn much later these days then they used to. A day care provider I know who's been doing for 20 years says that kids start using the potty a year or two later than they did even 10 years ago--she blames disposable diapers and especially pull-ups, because they are so absorbent the kid can't really feel the 'outcome' of what they just did. Another problem is the day care environment--providers just aren't, in most cases, going to work on potty training because diapers are a lot easier that dealing with 'accidents'--and then when mom and dad come home from work, they are ALSO too tired to deal with accidents--so the diapers stay on.

Well, I'm a daycare provider, and I am more than willing to start PL with all my kids, WHEN they are ready, and I will not have them in underwear until they are going on a toilet on a regular basis. I do not want other kids' poop/pee in my carpeting: Call me what you will. But I do the every half hour going on the potty thing, works fine. DD#1 was PL in about a wee right after her second birthday. DD#2 was 3.5 before she literally woke up one day and has gone on the toilet ever since. So, in My experience, YE they can wake up one day and be PL!!!

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#128 of 201 Old 09-27-2006, 04:02 PM
 
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Well, I can't say for sure that a child who had never seen someone use utensils would wake up one day & make a fork, but who knows? SOMEONE woke up one day & made a fork, right? They weren't here since the dawn of time. :

I don't understand your point about families who never had toilets- that almost certainly does not apply to anyone here. I did not lock Joe in a windowless room & expect he would one day break out looking for a porcelain container filled with water, into which he could evacuate his bowels & then flush it neatly away. He had a little potty, a seat to put on the big potty, a stepstool. He was (ALWAYS!! ) in the bathroom with me when I used the toilet. He knew what to do, & when to do it; he just was NOT comfortable with taking the next step. Just like he was not comfortable falling asleep without nursing until he was almost four years old. I can't see any of you, Mothering mamas, for Heaven's sake, being critical of me nursing my son until he weaned himself- so I guess it always confuses me when these threads pop up. I trust my son to know what he needs & when he needs it, in regard to nursing, sleep, food, education... why would I raise him like that but then force him to sit on the potty when he is genuinely NOT ready? : : Makes NO sense to me.





Not to me. Read the old parenting books. Kids were FORCED to sit on the potty, for loooong stretches of time. Ridiculed & beaten if they soiled their underwear. Mothers put their children on the potty at regular intervals. IMO most of those kids weren't trained at all- their mothers were. I am not saying that there aren't kids who can learn to use the potty at a young age- I do believe that some two year olds are ready & willing... I do believe that if you are committed to EC, it can be a good thing... but every child is different. The range for learning to walk, to talk, to read, varies sooo much- so why should every kid learn to use the potty at a certain age? I am genuinely confused.


LOVE this post, so true, so true!!!!!

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#129 of 201 Old 09-27-2006, 04:38 PM
 
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Why is this Thread on a AP website? I can't believe Parents are being judged because their child is not PL by Age 2. This is sad.

You wouldn't find this type of judgement on a Mainstream site.

PS, DS has ZERO interest in PL and I am not pushing him. He will learn when HE is ready to learn.
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#130 of 201 Old 09-27-2006, 04:46 PM
 
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My child was well over 3 before she was interested in the potty. She was completely out of diapers within two months of starting her learning. I believe children should have complete control over this... they will start when *they* are ready. My 2 year old started to use the potty this spring and is now completely out of diapers.

I will not "train" my next child to use the potty either. I will always have it easily accessible to them... but i will not force the subject.

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#131 of 201 Old 09-27-2006, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Pynki View Post
Because you and MitB, and the others suggesting it on this thread know this boy better than his PARENTS who have said they are following his cues? :

What if she decided he did or did not need to be eating solids? Would that be an appropriate thing for her to be trying to introduce on her time table or the parents?
Human beings have never sat in their own feces until recently. Don't even bother with extremes like the Inuit or other People's who live in areas where they cannot be naked.
EC is the most natural and GD way to teach our children. It is also the healthiest and most sanitary.

I would be more worried about teh other 3 yr olds who are gonna make fun of the child who reeks. I have done daycare and hae seen how the other kids are much more likely to tell the other kid to "get away from me! You stink!"
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#132 of 201 Old 09-27-2006, 06:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies View Post
Get a grip. Human beings have never sat in their own feces until recently. Don't even bother with extremes like the Inuit or other People's who live in areas where they cannot be naked.
EC is the most natural and GD way to teach our children. It is also the healthiest and most sanitary.

I would be more worried about teh other 3 yr olds who are gonna make fun of the child who reeks. I have done daycare and hae seen how the other kids are much more likely to tell the other kid to "get away from me! You stink!"
Did you just say "Get a grip" to a mother at MDC who feels it's a good thing to follow a child's cues? I'm growing increasingly saddened by the number of mamas who are new here to MDC who promote ideas that are not AP. But you have been here a long time and I just don't get this coming from you.


"Get a grip."??? wow, just wow.
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#133 of 201 Old 09-27-2006, 06:14 PM
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Did you just say "Get a grip" to a mother at MDC who feels it's a good thing to follow a child's cues? I'm growing increasingly saddened by the number of mamas who are new here to MDC who promote ideas that are not AP. But you have been here a long time and I just don't get this coming from you.


"Get a grip."??? wow, just wow.
And twice you have posted in this thread just to mock my posts and yet have added nothing to the discussion.
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#134 of 201 Old 09-27-2006, 06:17 PM
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Humans are born defecating and urinating. They are not born able to eat solids, that is why we have breastmilk.
That is also why it makes sense to follow the child's cues on self feeding.
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#135 of 201 Old 09-27-2006, 06:21 PM
 
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And twice you have posted in this thread just to mock my posts and yet have added nothing to the discussion.
I did not mock you, I asked you about your post, not the same thing. Just because I do not feel the same way you do on this issue does not mean my posts have added nothing to the discussion.
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#136 of 201 Old 09-27-2006, 06:32 PM
 
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Human beings have never sat in their own feces until recently. Don't even bother with extremes like the Inuit or other People's who live in areas where they cannot be naked.
EC is the most natural and GD way to teach our children. It is also the healthiest and most sanitary.

I would be more worried about teh other 3 yr olds who are gonna make fun of the child who reeks. I have done daycare and hae seen how the other kids are much more likely to tell the other kid to "get away from me! You stink!"
I've known plenty of three year olds have 3 boys age 3 and older now, and as long as you are changing the child there isn't any wallowing in fecal matter. Most of the time, the other kids don't even notice. The MOMS notice before the kids do.

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#137 of 201 Old 09-27-2006, 06:38 PM
 
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Humans are born defecating and urinating. They are not born able to eat solids, that is why we have breastmilk.
That is also why it makes sense to follow the child's cues on self feeding.
And all apes and all hunter-gatherers wean, many non-gently, before a sibling is born. Tandem nursing is almost unknown. Yet I don't see anyone going over to the child-led weaning board and saying "Mothers instinctively want to wean, go with your parental cues." Instead, Mamas who are struggling with the desire to wean get lots of support for letting their children wean at their own pace and at a timetable which may be at odds with their own feelings, but in a way that works for their child.

Humans may be born defecating and urinating, but for millenia we didn't have toilets or clothing, either. Different peoples have come up with different plans for dealing with it. Many cultures swaddled infants tightly for up to a year, changing the wrappings and the diapering wadding only daily, if that. Not all those people lived in climates where they could not go naked. The variety in what is natural human behavior is HUGE - there is more difference between the behaviors of different groups than there is between *species* of other apes!

I don't think anyone is proposing keeping children completely ignorant of the existence of the toilet and what goes on there. Nor are they saying that those who choose to do EC are somehow hung up or abusive or not GD - why the insistence on calling those who are working with their older children *less* GD? Not everyone *can* do EC, given the demands of the rest of modern life, and if those who don't do EC do whatever they *do* with at least care to the environmental consquences of their decisions and with respect and love towards their children, why does it matter to *you*, and why should there be so much squick-and-judgement?

savithny, 42 year old moderate mom to DS Primo (age 12) and DD Secunda (age 9).

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#138 of 201 Old 09-27-2006, 06:49 PM
 
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Tandem nursing is almost unknown. Yet I don't see anyone going over to the child-led weaning board and saying "Mothers instinctively want to wean, go with your parental cues."
Well, actually, I think that tandem nursing is "unnatural" in the sense that it's not biologically optimal. But I would NEVER go over to the bf forums and say that, cause I'd be flamed right out of there!

I also tend to lean on the side that 3 is a bit old to still be in diapers, and I do blame the manufacturers of the products for older kids in having a vested interest in keeping kids in diapers longer. But I don't know enough about PL or ages kids PL to really say one way or the other.
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#139 of 201 Old 09-27-2006, 07:01 PM
 
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I would be more worried about teh other 3 yr olds who are gonna make fun of the child who reeks. I have done daycare and hae seen how the other kids are much more likely to tell the other kid to "get away from me! You stink!"
My son NEVER had another child make a comment to him about stinking. When he pooped, I would take him to another room & change him; most kids were unaware that he was still in pullups. (Esp. when he got older, he would most often only poop when we were home. I imagine this is quite common.)

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Did you just say "Get a grip" to a mother at MDC who feels it's a good thing to follow a child's cues? I'm growing increasingly saddened by the number of mamas who are new here to MDC who promote ideas that are not AP. But you have been here a long time and I just don't get this coming from you.


"Get a grip."??? wow, just wow.
AMEN!!!: I am as shocked as you are.

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Humans are born defecating and urinating. They are not born able to eat solids, that is why we have breastmilk.
That is also why it makes sense to follow the child's cues on self feeding.
I don't understand what your point is here- at all. Humans are born pooping & peeing, then they transition to the toilet. Humans are born unable to eat solids, so they nurse & then transition to solid food. I did not force my son to eat cereal at 3 months, & I did not force him to use the toilet at 2 years. :

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I've known plenty of three year olds have 3 boys age 3 and older now, and as long as you are changing the child there isn't any wallowing in fecal matter. Most of the time, the other kids don't even notice. The MOMS notice before the kids do.
Totally agree!!

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I don't think anyone is proposing keeping children completely ignorant of the existence of the toilet and what goes on there. Nor are they saying that those who choose to do EC are somehow hung up or abusive or not GD - why the insistence on calling those who are working with their older children *less* GD? Not everyone *can* do EC, given the demands of the rest of modern life, and if those who don't do EC do whatever they *do* with at least care to the environmental consquences of their decisions and with respect and love towards their children, why does it matter to *you*, and why should there be so much squick-and-judgement?

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#140 of 201 Old 09-27-2006, 07:30 PM
 
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As the mother of an almost-4yo who still wears diapers about half the time, I can tell you I certainly feel judged and defensive when reading threads like this.
: Our son is 3y4m, and peed in his potty for the very first time on Saturday (hasn't done it since, either).

I sit here astounded at the judgment flying around this thread. Yes, it's true that in other cultures children PL earlier. I lived in China -- most "toilets" are merely holes in the floor, not the commodes we're accustomed to in the U.S. I never walked down the street there without seeing a child being held up so s/he could pee or poop into the gutter through a slit in her/his pants. Our at-home caregiver is Armenian, and she says they stop diapering children there at around a year old, mostly because no one can afford to keep buying diapers.

But none of this has anything to do with our son.

Yes, we've tried it all. Yes, I've read the books and scoured the MDC threads and the internet at large. Yes, he's fully capable of using the potty . . . and he just doesn't feel like it. I have full confidence that he will PL at some point before he goes to college. This doesn't make me a bad, ignorant or lazy mother . . . just like the fact that he still nurses doesn't make me a bad mother . . . and the fact that he still co-sleeps . . . and the fact that he's not circumcized or vaccinated . . .

. . . but MY mom sure thinks it does.

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#141 of 201 Old 09-27-2006, 07:34 PM
 
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I also tend to lean on the side that 3 is a bit old to still be in diapers, and I do blame the manufacturers of the products for older kids in having a vested interest in keeping kids in diapers longer. But I don't know enough about PL or ages kids PL to really say one way or the other.
This reminds me of comments from people who have never nursed a toddler, but say if they are old enough to walk up to you and ask for it they are too old to nurse.

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#142 of 201 Old 09-27-2006, 08:06 PM
 
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I was once involved in a very similar discussion to this on another board and I posted thoughts similar to this:

When your child takes his first real test in school - will one of the questions ask when he potty trained?

When your child is graduating from high school and applying for college - will she have to disclose when she potty trained on her applications?

And when your child is looking for his first real job - will potty training be on his resume?

How about when she runs for public office - will her opponent bring up the fact that she potty trained early or late?

In the grand scheme of things - when your child potty trains will mean next to nothing in his/her life!
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#143 of 201 Old 09-27-2006, 09:17 PM
 
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I can't believe how judgemental so many people are about this issue. My 7 year old niece recently had a sleep over and wet the bed. she woke me up at 3am. It happens. I didn't make her feel terrible or think her parents were lazy because she was already embarrassed enough and these things happen.

My son is a later PL'er. He is bright, intelligent, we've been trying but not obessing. Like another poster said, pick your battles. From my experience girls do typically learn much quicker than boys on this issue. However, I've known girls who were just PLing during the third year so I hate to gender stereotype.

Just because a 3 year old isn't using the potty regularly with all incidents it doesn't mean the child is stupid, the parents or lazy, etc. Children learn different milestones at different times. Also, allow if there any big changes going on in the house such as divorce/seperation, moving, introduction of a new sib, etc. as all of these can slow down PLing.

For the people who are so grossed out by it, I feel sorry for you. What are you going to do if your child happens to go through a bed wetting stage later on or something? Have you ever had to care for an elderly adult who had incontence issues? Have you ever lost bladder control while you were pregnant? Come on, being 3 and still in diapers is really not "gross" or that big of a deal. I've known people who have started forcing potty training on thier kids and spent 6 months battling the issue--I'd rather just have a slightly delayed learner.
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#144 of 201 Old 09-27-2006, 11:32 PM
 
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OK, I just read through this thread and feel the need to give my 2 cents.

I am surprised on this board that more support is not being given for "child-led potty training". Most of us would be horrified if you substituted "breastfeeding" for "potty training".

I am a lazy potty trainer. I give some encouragement, etc. but when they are ready, they will be ready. My children have all been trained after 3, my son later than the girls.

My 7 yo has never been dry at night. I have resisted pressure to put her on meds, it doesn't bother her, why should it bother me.

I see many, many kids not potty trained at 3. If you were my babysitter, I would let you know they are still in diapers, but I wouldn't want to be called to come back to change them. If it bothers you that much, you probably aren't the person for the job.

My opinion, and it's only that, is that we parents are much more concerned about this issue than the kids and their friends.
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#145 of 201 Old 09-28-2006, 11:47 AM
 
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As the mother of an almost-4yo who still wears diapers about half the time, I can tell you I certainly feel judged and defensive when reading threads like this.
You're right about that

All my boys trained very late. Let's just say they were all wearing diapers at your son's age but now theyr'e not. None wore diapers in Kindergarten.

I had no idea it bothered people so much.
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#146 of 201 Old 09-28-2006, 11:53 AM
 
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I've known plenty of three year olds have 3 boys age 3 and older now, and as long as you are changing the child there isn't any wallowing in fecal matter. Most of the time, the other kids don't even notice. The MOMS notice before the kids do.
Yeah, in my daughter's class of three year olds I've never seen a child be clued in to that, either.
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#147 of 201 Old 09-28-2006, 12:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by savithny View Post
Let me go on the record as saying that *most* moms with a child who is 3+ and not using the potty do NOT need ANY more suggestions.

The majority of moms I know with later trainers (myself included) HAVE TRIED WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO SUGGEST.

Yes, we tried it.
Yes, we were consistent.
Yes, we stuck with it for more than a day.

What is is about the sight of the edge of a diaper above the pants of any child over three that makes it open season on comments? Heck, both my kids are *very* tall for their ages, so we started getting comments earlier than that. Random strangers on the street would first try to *shame* my child ("you're a pretty big boy to still wear diapers? Do you think you're a baby still?") and then would offer me helpful "hints" like "have you tried naked time?" (Um, yeah. But maybe if you describe it to me for the hundredth time it'll suddenly work!)

.
I have so BTDT. Fun, isn't it?
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#148 of 201 Old 09-28-2006, 12:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Venice Mamacita View Post
: Our son is 3y4m, and peed in his potty for the very first time on Saturday (hasn't done it since, either).

snip
Yes, we've tried it all. Yes, I've read the books and scoured the MDC threads and the internet at large. Yes, he's fully capable of using the potty . . . and he just doesn't feel like it. I have full confidence that he will PL at some point before he goes to college. This doesn't make me a bad, ignorant or lazy mother . . . just like the fact that he still nurses doesn't make me a bad mother . . . and the fact that he still co-sleeps . . . and the fact that he's not circumcized or vaccinated . . .

. . . but MY mom sure thinks it does.
We have the same mother Hang in there it will happen
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#149 of 201 Old 09-28-2006, 12:21 PM
 
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try to *shame* my child ("you're a pretty big boy to still wear diapers? Do you think you're a baby still?")
^ grrrrr!

The whole ""you're a big boy now" drove me nutso - and I think contributed to DS not being super-interested in using the toilet "full time" until he was about 4. He'd just started to wean, and was really sensitive about the whole growing up thing. One of the reasons we left our first attempt at preschool was they wanted him to be out of pull-ups (at 3 and a half) and were really snarky with us about it when we said we didn't want to force him.

I made the toilet available and fun (lots of books to read, i'd stay in there with him if he wanted.) I tried to make the idea more of a "being part of the tribe" thing - it's something we all do, just like eating and sleeping. As he's a boy, the discovery that he could pee outside on a tree was hugely exciting.

And, fact is, when he did "get it" he got it all at once - he had maybe 2 pee accidents, tops, in the first couple of days wearing regular pants, then, never again.
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#150 of 201 Old 09-28-2006, 04:06 PM
 
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Wow, I am shocked at the judgment and hatred being heaped apon those who have chosen to do something against our Western cultural norms by introducing the potty to their infants.

I read this entire thread, and not once did I see an ECer judge a diapering or late-PLing momma. HOWEVER, I have seen about 5 pages of hatred and ridicule being thrown apon mommas who have only stated that they are uncomfortable with older children in diapers. NOT one of those comments was a personal attack, and most cited historical/anthropological data to explain their discomfort. Natashacat stated several times that it was UNFAMILLIAR to her and that she wanted to approach the situation with full knowlege of what was common in this society.

Why is it that when an ECer, especially one who has NEVER known what it is to potty train a child (that right, I have 2 children who use the potty and they have never been "potty trained"), says that they EC and don't understand older children in diapers, they accused of judgement on these boards merely by stating that they don't understand something??

the fact is that an ECed child does not need to be potty trained in the way that so many of you understand that phrase. There are almost NO incidents of withholding, no incidents of requesting a diaper to urinate or defecate because children who are ECed do not consider clothing the place to do these things (and yes, there are results from a scientific study on Western EC pending). ECers are NOT doing early Potty Learning, we are doing something that is completely different.

Please stop judging us for making that choice. Please stop assumming that our choice, and our feelings about older children in diapers, have ANYTHING to do with your choices to do otherwise.

I didn't hear of EC until my son was 2 months old. He was in disposable diapers for the entirety of that time and, had we not learned about EC, we would have followed his cues for potty learning. But, we did learn of EC and we learned that he WAS already cuing us to use the potty, so we followed those cues.

I KNOW that most American families do not know that their babies are cueing them to use the potty, and that many of them don't even believe that an infant has any idea that they have to use the potty. Because a baby who has used a diaper from birth does not have the same sensations or muscle control as a baby who has NOT used a diaper from birth. Potty Learning is about teaching a child to feel the sensations of needing to go and then going in the appropriate place. An ECed child experiences those sensations from the beginning so they never have to re-learn them. An ECed baby is NOT the same as an early potty learning toddler. That is why there are support groups for Late-Starting ECers, because they are NOT the same thing.

Those facts are not judgement about the baby who has been diapered from birth, nor is it judgement about the parents of that baby. They are just facts about how EC works and how diapering works.

As foreign as it is for all of you who have diapered your children to understand how ECed babies could possibly know when they have to go pee/poo or feel it coming, or would prefer the potty, that is how hard it is for ECers to understand how a child could NOT know, could NOT feel it, or could prefer the diaper.

That is not judgement, it is sharing different points of view. The OP and those like her who posted to this thread were trying to get some understanding of your POV and were trying to share some knowlege about our POV. For us it is very similar to how militant breastfeeders feel, that if mothers only knew all the benefits and knew that their babies were designed for breastmilk, that they would nurse their babies.

The day I learned about EC a lightbulb switched on and it made perfect sense to me. I felt dumb for not thinking of it sooner, but I grew up in a culture that had NO experience with such a thing. I have spent 6 years being ridiculed, derided, told I was judging someone for choosing to have my children be diaper-free. I keep thinking thatin 2006 on a board such as this one, with mommas who support alternative lifestyles and natural, gentle parenting techniques, that I could finally start to share that I am an ECer without fear of flaming and it makes me sad and furious that it is still not so.

We were not attacking your point of view at all (please show me the lines that attacked child-led PLing), yet many of you attacked our POV when we merely stated it.

Now we'll all slink back to the EC forum where we can share our thoughts without 8 pages of flaming.

Robin~ single, work-at-home momma to my WonderBoys
YoungMan (6/00) & LittleBoy (6/04)
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