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The Childhood Years > 3 yo still in diapers, help me undestand
joy2bmom's Avatar joy2bmom 03:28 AM 09-30-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by pigpokey View Post
It just occurred to me, this kind of thing is not just diapers. As one who fed her kids from the family pot (so to speak) from the time they started eating, I find it a bit disconcerting to see 14 month olds being fed from baby food jars or kids who refuse to drink water ... and I will admit that on these issues, I just think it's weird that parents will willfully withhold from their 6 month old sips of water from mom's glass, and then complain that their 18 month old will take no water. Or that (and this is common in mainstream circles) parents will feed their kids uniflavored formula from near birth (by choice), tasteless rice cereal graduating eventually to baby food meat that has an odor that will make you want to hurl, and then complain that their 2 year olds will eat nothing but macaroni and cheese and maybe a single item of fruit.

Or that parents will withhold small objects from their babies in a developmental age when they are clearly naturally DRIVEN to learn to manipulate small objects in their mouths, and then worry for the next 2 years about their child choking.

I don't care when you take the diapers away from your kids, or whether you do it at all or instead, wait for the child to decide to walk away from the diapers. I really see it as the parents' choice of cost/benefits and really a much lesser issue for the child IF the parents are happy with the choices and don't punish for things that really are the parents' choice. PLing my son as a 1.5 year old is something I am able to do with him because I am not doing other things. It suits my needs and I really don't see it as an unreasonable burden for him, given that he is very high functioning and does not need to find food, shelter, clean, or do dishes, and he does not have a full time paying job yet. To think that he will be harmed by being asked to take the same reponsibilities that we place on 3 month old puppies and six week old kittens doesn't make sense -- to me -- given my unique children and my own priorities.

I do want to say something I have said before. The initial diapering is not child led. Diapering is a tool of parental convenience, the value of which diminishes over time until at some point for each baby/family the cost is more than the value. It is not much different from a pacifier. No baby goes out and buys herself a dummy nor does one come flying out after the placenta. I don't consider diapers to be particularly natural parenting and as ECers know, the bond of attachments with a child is not broken by communicating with them about elimination and the general rules of being human. At any age.
Can we say JUDGEMENTAL? WOW, very shocking to read all the judgemental comments in this thread.

Every child has its own personality, its own way of being, we're all like fingerprints we're all different, the way we parent is also different, there's no right or wrong unless we're abusing our children, there's no instruction booklet to tell us which way to do it, we all do what we feel is right for our children, i mean after all we love our children and want to do whats best for them, and when someone tells us what we're doing is "wrong" or "there's a better way to do it" of course we're gonna be defensive about it but IMO everyone here is doing whats right for their own children no matter how they potty train . Lets face it here in about 50yrs or so(less for some) some of us Parents may be in the same position as our children, and we may need to wear adult diapers, i hope when/if that time comes someone that may hafta change us doesn't have negative judgements on us about it. I for one would want them to keep their negative comments to themselves, and if they feel uncomfortable with it i would hope they would go elsewhere. Just my Opinion

odenata's Avatar odenata 03:28 AM 09-30-2006
I want to get back to the original question from the OP - how to feel more comfortable, and I want to use a different angle to do it.

I had a job in an adult day health center where I had to help adults in the bathroom and change incontinence products. I was really concerned about this part of the job before I did it - and I was concerned b/c of issues like "hygiene and personal privacy." I didn't want to embarrass anyone. And I was a little grossed out at the thought of doing it.

And then I did it, and realized that it wasn't such a big deal. You can easily help someone in the toilet (or with a diaper) in a matter-of-fact way that is respectful of their needs and privacy, and is also completely hygenic.

In the end, a 3 year old is a person who deserves respect, just like these adults did, and as a caregiver who is charged with meeting the needs of someone, you do it.

Quote:
The mom tells me that he simply isn't interested and she doesn't want to push and I totally respect that. What I need from you guys is a little help in not feeling wierd about it, like perhaps some insight into what this child might be thinking and feeling. I'm sure that he can sense my discomfort with diapers and I don't want to do or say something that will hurt his feelings or make the situation at home worse.
Respect is the key. If you respect this mother and her child, I think you will be able to move past your own discomfort and meet his needs with respect. If you can't do this, I think you should inform the mother that you just aren't comfortable caring for her son.
Flor's Avatar Flor 04:26 AM 09-30-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by mother culture View Post
I can see this thread and topic bring up all kinds of invented emotional problems for children. I think that if you don't show your baby or young child how to eliminate like everyone else because they are a "boy" "aren't showing signs" or "refuse" then your child may just be in diapers for years and I feel sorry for them and the parents. Parents need to be a little stronger and clear that diapers ( no matter how cute) are not needed after 2 years. Of course there are children that have health problems and that is another story.
It is just another part of lifes lessons to teach and expect. Parents in this thread that are changing a 4-5 year olds diaper are enabling and letting the child run the show. I feel this is a negative aspect of child let everything and it is not natural for children to run the show.
I like your tune PigPokey you hit it on the nail!
All of my boys were out of diapers by 23mos.
Also, when my ds was 2, I showed him the potty, bought him underwear, read him stories about potties, showed him how mom and dad and grandma and grandpa and brother go, brought him to the potty, let him run around naked, tried stickers and treats, tried reading on the potty.. . .and you do all that and the kid still won't use the potty-- what are you supposed to do? Tie him to the potty? Use force? Guilt? Shame? What does it mean "to be a little stronger"? Eating, peeing, sleeping-- I can set the mood, provide the supplies, give encoragment, but the kid has to do the work. We started Pling at 2, he was done with diapers around his third birthday.

It seems like this thread has a very narrow window. What is the right age? What really is the difference between an early learner and a late learner? Just a few months.
octobermom's Avatar octobermom 04:44 AM 09-30-2006
Quote:
I can see this thread and topic bring up all kinds of invented emotional problems for children. I think that if you don't show your baby or young child how to eliminate like everyone else because they are a "boy" "aren't showing signs" or "refuse" then your child may just be in diapers for years and I feel sorry for them and the parents.
Do me a favor and don't. Truth is my DD will be in diapers for a while maybe a few years. She doesn't need your pity and neither do I. Do you honestly think every kid not PT by 24 months has invented a problem? I sospose my DD made up her EEG results.

I'm with the PP we did all that everything and nothing no connection. I had people tell me to punish her everytime she had an accident. We put away the diapers sold them totally removed them for over 6 months we did the formal training and DD went along perfectly happy but nothing unless she happened to be ready to burst when we put her on nothing no connection. A bright academically advanced little girl but zero connection. About 3 months ago we went back to diapers she was just getting lots of rashes and no connection. We finially had her tested and there is a medical reason to why. You cannot tell my looking even by watching how coperative she is in pottying. Yet here we are she will be 4 next month. Shes in diapers. Us taking them away is not going to magically PT her.
BTW many many many kids are NOT ready to train at two years even ones with out real delays like my DD. and for those kids you can strip them naked and strap them to a potty its not going to cure them. :
ericswifey27's Avatar ericswifey27 05:18 AM 09-30-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by mother culture View Post
I can see this thread and topic bring up all kinds of invented emotional problems for children. I think that if you don't show your baby or young child how to eliminate like everyone else because they are a "boy" "aren't showing signs" or "refuse" then your child may just be in diapers for years and I feel sorry for them and the parents. Parents need to be a little stronger and clear that diapers ( no matter how cute) are not needed after 2 years. Of course there are children that have health problems and that is another story.
It is just another part of lifes lessons to teach and expect. Parents in this thread that are changing a 4-5 year olds diaper are enabling and letting the child run the show. I feel this is a negative aspect of child let everything and it is not natural for children to run the show.
I like your tune PigPokey you hit it on the nail!
All of my boys were out of diapers by 23mos.



Wow.

Where do I start....
onlyzombiecat's Avatar onlyzombiecat 10:34 AM 09-30-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by odenata View Post
I want to get back to the original question from the OP - how to feel more comfortable, and I want to use a different angle to do it.

I had a job in an adult day health center where I had to help adults in the bathroom and change incontinence products. I was really concerned about this part of the job before I did it - and I was concerned b/c of issues like "hygiene and personal privacy." I didn't want to embarrass anyone. And I was a little grossed out at the thought of doing it.

And then I did it, and realized that it wasn't such a big deal. You can easily help someone in the toilet (or with a diaper) in a matter-of-fact way that is respectful of their needs and privacy, and is also completely hygenic.

In the end, a 3 year old is a person who deserves respect, just like these adults did, and as a caregiver who is charged with meeting the needs of someone, you do it.



Respect is the key. If you respect this mother and her child, I think you will be able to move past your own discomfort and meet his needs with respect. If you can't do this, I think you should inform the mother that you just aren't comfortable caring for her son.
Great post! I think you really cut to the heart of the matter.
pigpokey's Avatar pigpokey 10:43 AM 09-30-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pynki View Post
So the question I have after reading this is...

Is do you feel that EC is more about the "rules" of being human than other parenting methods with regard to elimination? And if so... Do you think that makes EC-ers MORE THAN as parents than parents who chose other methods?
As regards the first question ... if I restated it in detail the way I think you mean it, I think it's a legitimate hypothesis but I don't know.

Even if the answer were yes ... of course ECers are not "more than" as parents just because they EC. Who would say that? I believe I also said earlier in the thread that I think this is an issue for the parents not the children.
pigpokey's Avatar pigpokey 10:55 AM 09-30-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by littleteapot View Post
Wow, that's scary to read on MDC.
Please say why instead of just insulting the author. That is productive discussion.

As far as I can tell, these things that are making people feel judged are differences of parental ideology that fall well within Mothering's bounds as a place for NFL and/or AP discussion. I think attempts to quasi censor discussion within those bounds is bad for, well, society, and for MDC. A static ideology retains all its flaws and never advances. The minority viewpoint can easily be squashed by the majority, but don't forget one day the majority may realize they had things to learn, too.
wednesday's Avatar wednesday 11:51 AM 09-30-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellien C View Post
I'm thinking she could get a nurse to come out to her house for an evening. The nurse would totally enjoy babysitting a 9 yo (as opposed to what they ususally do) and the idea of dipes wouldn't freak her out. I would start checking with some agencies.
I was thinking the same thing... my SIL works in hospice and she changes diapers on grown adults. Not necessarily elderly, not necessarily mentally incapacitated either--but not able to get up and use a toilet. It is part of the job to treat every patient with dignity and take care of their physical needs. I second the suggestion of hiring a nurse from a home healthy agency. Where I live it costs around $14/hour.
marybethorama's Avatar marybethorama 12:46 PM 09-30-2006
[QUOTE=Flor;6158663]Also, when my ds was 2, I showed him the potty, bought him underwear, read him stories about potties, showed him how mom and dad and grandma and grandpa and brother go, brought him to the potty, let him run around naked, tried stickers and treats, tried reading on the potty.. . .and you do all that and the kid still won't use the potty-- what are you supposed to do? Tie him to the potty? Use force? Guilt? Shame? What does it mean "to be a little stronger"? Eating, peeing, sleeping-- I can set the mood, provide the supplies, give encoragment, but the kid has to do the work. [QUOTE]

Exactly. Are people thinking that we (not speaking for everyone here but I'm sure others shared my experience)just sat around waiting for our child to tell us they wanted to use the potty?

I didn't. I did all that was suggested. Then when it didn't work, I backed off. My 3rd ds especially did not want to talk about the potty. He got very upset. One day he finally (this was after working with him a while) started peeing in the potty. He still wanted to poop in a diaper for a while after that. He did not want to poop in the potty. So I gave him a diaper and changed it. All the time I talked about using the potty but I didn't nag him or shame him. Eventually I ran out of diapers and forgot (I really did-I wasn't being manipulative) to buy more and that was that. I'm not stupid, the diapers had been put away for some time but when he asked for one and told me it was really important to him, I let him have one. The day I ran out he didn't ask for a diaper. So I didn't offer.

I practiced, "don't offer, don't refuse"
witchbaby's Avatar witchbaby 01:23 PM 09-30-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubelin View Post
Just one last thing and then I'm walking away, because I really am not trying to piss anyone off.

I think one thing that really bugs me is the fact that it seems any 2 sides of an issue can't seem to discuss either side without defensiveness and attacks. Both of these sides are AP and NFL but we can't discuss them in the same thread without both sides getting hurt.

And, for the record (and perhaps this is the thing that made me feel attacked as an ECer) EC is completely child-led. You can't do EC if you are not following your child's lead.
i don't see where anyone is feeling attacked for ec. people are throwing out "weird" and "strange" about 3 year olds in diapers (judging a BABY) and then calling parents lazy, ignorant or unperceptive.
i have no problem with ec. i did not do it with my children but i see it's value FOR SOME PEOPLE. i haven't once flamed ec in this thread but have been flamed for having a nearly-3 year old in diapers and have been told i'm doing something wrong because she's nowhere near potty training.
try a look from our side.
joesmom's Avatar joesmom 01:36 PM 09-30-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by mother culture View Post
I can see this thread and topic bring up all kinds of invented emotional problems for children. I think that if you don't show your baby or young child how to eliminate like everyone else because they are a "boy" "aren't showing signs" or "refuse" then your child may just be in diapers for years and I feel sorry for them and the parents. Parents need to be a little stronger and clear that diapers ( no matter how cute) are not needed after 2 years. Of course there are children that have health problems and that is another story.

It is just another part of lifes lessons to teach and expect. Parents in this thread that are changing a 4-5 year olds diaper are enabling and letting the child run the show. I feel this is a negative aspect of child let everything and it is not natural for children to run the show.

I like your tune PigPokey you hit it on the nail! All of my boys were out of diapers by 23mos.
My son WAS in diapers for years. Four years. Big whoop. I gave birth to him expecting to love him unconditionally, to raise him up to be a self sufficient, happy, caring person. Guess what? He is. I changed my four year old son's poopy diapers & I do NOT regret it one bit. I NEVER look back & say, I wish I would have pushed him harder. If I HAD pushed him & he had developed encopresis because of it (very likely, because he was strongly opposed to using the toilet...)

I was not enabling, NOR was I letting Joe run the show. Your post is highly offensive, to me & to many other mamas I am sure. On a website that espouses the values of gentle discipline, I am seriously shocked that you would think it is appropriate to post something like this here. :

Quote:
Originally Posted by octobermom View Post
Do me a favor and don't. Truth is my DD will be in diapers for a while maybe a few years. She doesn't need your pity and neither do I. Do you honestly think every kid not PT by 24 months has invented a problem? I sospose my DD made up her EEG results.

I'm with the PP we did all that everything and nothing no connection. I had people tell me to punish her everytime she had an accident. We put away the diapers sold them totally removed them for over 6 months we did the formal training and DD went along perfectly happy but nothing unless she happened to be ready to burst when we put her on nothing no connection. A bright academically advanced little girl but zero connection. About 3 months ago we went back to diapers she was just getting lots of rashes and no connection. We finially had her tested and there is a medical reason to why. You cannot tell my looking even by watching how coperative she is in pottying. Yet here we are she will be 4 next month. Shes in diapers. Us taking them away is not going to magically PT her.
BTW many many many kids are NOT ready to train at two years even ones with out real delays like my DD. and for those kids you can strip them naked and strap them to a potty its not going to cure them. :
THIS is why it is so important to follow your child's lead. I am so glad for you octobermom, that you did not push your dd. You should be proud of yourself for following your instincts & not caring what "society" might think.


Quote:
Originally Posted by littleteapot View Post
Wow, that's scary to read on MDC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pigpokey View Post
Please say why instead of just insulting the author. That is productive discussion.
I'll say why I thought it was scary to read. I thought it was scary to read because it is the same sort of anti child crap that I could read at Babycenter. The author has fallen into the trap of believing that if you don't tell your child what to do & when to do it (EVEN IF you do it gently & respectfully, I am not saying this poster was in any way cruel to her kids...), then the kid is running the show. It was scary to read because there are SO many kids in this world, & they are all different. Kids walk, talk, LEARN at different paces. Why is potty training such a hot button issue? I personally think that the parents who are so gung ho on their kids being trained are afraid of what people will think- not of their kids, but of THEM. So afraid that someone will think they are lazy or bad parents that they put their child's well being in second place, & I think that is very sad, & very scary.
littleteapot's Avatar littleteapot 03:20 PM 09-30-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by pigpokey View Post
Please say why instead of just insulting the author. That is productive discussion.
I didn't insult the author, in fact I didn't even mention her. I commented on what she had said. I said it was scary: which is true, it is scary.
chfriend's Avatar chfriend 03:34 PM 09-30-2006
My kids run the show.

And one used the potty around 16 months, the other 26 months. Never had to lie to them and tell them all the diapers in the world were used up, or the Easter Bunny took them, or Mommy just decided you have to do what I do, or give them stickers and candy.

And they might not have and that would have been *fine* with me.

My kids also run the show on when they wean, what they eat, when they leave the family bed, how they learn to read. They've been quicker on the reading and pottying things than the weaning and family bed things. And that's fine with me. I like 'em how they are.

And I honestly couldn't care less how "humans" do it.

Letting the kids run the show leads to a really funny, super amazing show.
octobermom's Avatar octobermom 04:11 PM 09-30-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by littleteapot View Post
I didn't insult the author, in fact I didn't even mention her. I commented on what she had said. I said it was scary: which is true, it is scary.
Okay honestly what is scarry abut it? My DD is almost 4 she is still in diapers she lets me know when shes we or messy but cannot tell me before hand. Is it the most exciting part of the day no but scarry????
joesmom's Avatar joesmom 04:11 PM 09-30-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by chfriend View Post
Letting the kids run the show leads to a really funny, super amazing show.

That is the best quote I have read here in a LOOOONG time!! : : You rock!
littleteapot's Avatar littleteapot 04:17 PM 09-30-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by octobermom View Post
Okay honestly what is scarry abut it? My DD is almost 4 she is still in diapers she lets me know when shes we or messy but cannot tell me before hand. Is it the most exciting part of the day no but scarry????
Um, I'm on your side.
octobermom's Avatar octobermom 04:23 PM 09-30-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by littleteapot View Post
Um, I'm on your side.
Okay I miss read and got my posts mixed up. Way tooo much going on in this thread. :
rubelin's Avatar rubelin 04:23 PM 09-30-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by mother culture View Post
I can see this thread and topic bring up all kinds of invented emotional problems for children. I think that if you don't show your baby or young child how to eliminate like everyone else because they are a "boy" "aren't showing signs" or "refuse" then your child may just be in diapers for years and I feel sorry for them and the parents. Parents need to be a little stronger and clear that diapers ( no matter how cute) are not needed after 2 years. Of course there are children that have health problems and that is another story.
It is just another part of lifes lessons to teach and expect. Parents in this thread that are changing a 4-5 year olds diaper are enabling and letting the child run the show. I feel this is a negative aspect of child let everything and it is not natural for children to run the show.
I like your tune PigPokey you hit it on the nail!
Wow, now THAT is definitely judgemental, and kinda rude and attacking. And I don't think you understood what PigPokey was saying, or at least not the tone of what she was saying.

I do happen to agree with everything PigPokey said, and I don't believe that she or I are meaning any judgement when we say it nor are we saying that one parent is better for one choice or the other. We are saying that different parents make different choices based on our own circumstances and on what our different beliefs are.

Quote:
I do want to say something I have said before. The initial diapering is not child led. Diapering is a tool of parental convenience, the value of which diminishes over time until at some point for each baby/family the cost is more than the value. It is not much different from a pacifier. No baby goes out and buys herself a dummy nor does one come flying out after the placenta.
This statement is a fact. It is true that we, as parents in this culture, over time have chosen to put our babies into diapers. There's no judgement intended in that (at least from me), it's just what we've done. And there have been consequenses of that choice which are upsetting for some and others are just fine with the consequenses.

Honestly, judging individual mothers in a culture that taught them over several generations that something was right is just mean. I do not believe that any of you intentionally ignored your baby's cues and signs of wanting to use the potty and slapped diapers on them in order to ignore those signs. I think that if you believed that your baby was signalling to you that they did not want diapers that you would not have forced your child to wear them (and I'm not saying you DID force your child, because, obviously, you don't believe they minded at all).

And, you know what, if you DID know that your baby was telling you they didn't want to go in a diaper and you consistanly ignored them on purpose, yeah, I do think you were putting your needs over theirs and I don't think you made a good choice, but I don't think that anyone on this board would do that.

I know that a child who has worn diapers their entire life needs to be given as much time and space as possible to make such a huge change. Even with a child who has used the potty from birth, 2 years old is a hard time for pottying (hell, 2 is a hard time for just about everything!)
littleteapot's Avatar littleteapot 04:39 PM 09-30-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by octobermom View Post
Okay I miss read and got my posts mixed up. Way tooo much going on in this thread. :
That's okay, I was just confused for a minute there.
Black Orchid 04:51 PM 09-30-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by pigpokey View Post
Or that (and this is common in mainstream circles) parents will feed their kids uniflavored formula from near birth (by choice), tasteless rice cereal graduating eventually to baby food meat that has an odor that will make you want to hurl, and then complain that their 2 year olds will eat nothing but macaroni and cheese and maybe a single item of fruit.
Sorry, I justh ad to repsond to this.

My 3 yo DD was and is still breast fed. Had no solids until after the 6th month (because she wasn't interested) and was fed EXCLUSIVELY from the family "pot". Homemade soups, fresh veggies and meats, homemade whole grain cereals with organic molasses, etc. NEVER have rice cereal or formula. And she still will only eat macaroni and fruit. Seriously. Breakfast, lunch and dinner. It came to this not because she was givent this to be "Easy" or whatever. But because she said she hated everything else and we gave her pasta and cheese as a last resort.

So my point is and what I have learned through raise my unique DD... children are going to be who they are and do what they want REGARDLESS of what you feed them, how long you diper or do not diaper them, where they sleep, etc, etc, etc. This doesn't mean that it isn't up to us to present them with the healthiest and best alternatives that we can manage. But in the end we cannot force them to do anything they don't want to do nor is it our job.

I won't go into rambling details, but my DD is the case in point for this. I started out wanting to follow the AP checklist, nursing, family bed, GD, babywearing, etc, etc, etc... well some of them just didn't work for her personality. So I had to realize that there isn't one list or one way that was right or wrong.

Hopefully, you'll never be faced with having to do this. But if you do, I hope you won't have people making you feel like somehow you're failing or not doing something perfectly right.
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