Thoughts on Disney movies? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 124 Old 03-02-2007, 12:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by openheart View Post
She never uses the word bored.
my kids don't either.

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I believe that many parents give up their beliefs that they held dear when their children were born on issues of TV, Videos, Barbies etc.. because it is all around their kids at school etc. I think as a parent, we have the responsiblilty to raise our children with our values, not other peoples values or the medias values.
I think it is great that you are living your values and I support you 100%.

I am too, and my kids watch TV. One of my values is letting my kids make as many of their own choices as possible. I was raised by religious fanatics who crammed their beliefs and life style down my throat, and it really didn't work for me. It is very, very important to me that my kids have a lot of control in their own lives. For me, dictating which toys they can and cannot play with would be micromanging and inappropriate. For you, it isn't. That doesn't make one of us right and the other one wrong, it just means that we are different people.

BTW, my kids don't go to school, but they are intersted in pop culture anyway. Some of this stuff may get more complicated for you as the years go by.

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she knows we have our family beliefs and she is proud of them and her difference. Viva la difference.
and my DDs know our families beliefs and values, too. They are also proud of them. They think they are lucky.

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Also, she is an incredibly creative child with a zest for life and plays from the moment she wakes up til bedtime
My kids are also very creative and playful, too.

I think you are trying to prove that you are right and other people are wrong, but it just doesn't work like that. You are doing what feels right to you and it is working for you, but other people are doing what feels right to them and it is working for them. There isn't one right answer.

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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#62 of 124 Old 03-02-2007, 03:54 PM
 
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5. They felt that the Disney Princess stuff is harmless fun for very young children, and parents shouldn't worry about it much because kids quickly outgrow it. My 8 year old put it best, "When you are 5 you want to be Belle or Cinderella for Halloween, but then you grow up a little, and you realize that there are a lot of other things you could be. You want to be somebody like Ginny Weasley, not because she has a fancy dress, but because she can hex Malfroy. She's tough."
That's hilarious, and it meshes with what I'm thinking. Letting kids watch the Disney-Princess movies isn't going to turn them into unthinking princess-wanwabees: to imply that is insulting to the little girls in question. I think that's why so many of our responses include "Well *I* watched them and I'm OK..."

We've probably all been into that household that is 110% DisneyPrincess/Bratz/Barbie, where there is seemingly no other "idea" going on. Don't be that household! Expose your kids to many different ideas, different stories. Share what you like and dislike about each film in question. Bring in strong girl-role-model stories-- can you guess which books I'd reccommend?

An aside about the whole body-image/eating disorder thing: princess movies and Barbie dolls don't cause eating disorders. They may play a role, but it's the messages that girls get from parents, teachers, coaches, classmates, siblings, etc etc etc that build up to a distorted body image and eating disorders.

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#63 of 124 Old 03-02-2007, 07:27 PM
 
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One of my values is letting my kids make as many of their own choices as possible.
Do you think that when children are exposed to so much media marketing (billions of dollars spent on child psychologists whose sole intent is to reach your child) that they are actually making their *OWN* decisions?
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#64 of 124 Old 03-02-2007, 07:32 PM
 
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An aside about the whole body-image/eating disorder thing: princess movies and Barbie dolls don't cause eating disorders. They may play a role, but it's the messages that girls get from parents, teachers, coaches, classmates, siblings, etc etc etc that build up to a distorted body image and eating disorders.

They are getting the same message from all those people. Teachers, coaches, classmates, etc. do tell them that thin, is pretty; blond is pretty; you cannot be pretty outside of your looks. And then they get that same reinforcement from the people the trust the most... their parents? They see it at home through the allowed media in the house? When Disney puts out a movie that shows a smart woman that is happy just doing what she wants, I'll start watching them. When they show that a disabled girl can be equally happy... I'll start watching them.
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#65 of 124 Old 03-03-2007, 02:27 AM
 
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Do you think that when children are exposed to so much media marketing (billions of dollars spent on child psychologists whose sole intent is to reach your child) that they are actually making their *OWN* decisions?
Please read my first post in this thread to see the kind of thinking my kids are capable of. They are bright kids who can think for themselves.

When they were very young we shielded them from most ads. As they've gotten older it is not a concern. Most of the TV shows they like are targetted at adults, so the ads are too. They like the history channel, animal planet, and discovery. We talk about ads, what they are selling, and how they are trying to convience us.

I think this is actually a reason to watch DVDs rather than TV when kids are young.

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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#66 of 124 Old 03-03-2007, 02:45 AM
 
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Teachers, coaches, classmates, etc. do tell them that thin, is pretty; blond is pretty; you cannot be pretty outside of your looks. And then they get that same reinforcement from the people the trust the most... their parents?
My kids don't get those messages all the time. It makes it easier that we homeschool. Our lifestyle is alternative enough that we have opted out of a lot of the nonsense of modern American life.

I think that how a mother feels about her own body has a really big impact on a girl. When the emphasis is on healthy eating and enjoying being active, it is a powerful daily lesson. I think my kids are far more intune with *my* body image than anything they see in a movie.

I also think that AP and GD help make children more resilent. When a little girl has a firm foundation that she is loved and accepted and valued just exactly how she is for who she is, and she knows it in the very fiber of her being, some of this stuff just bounces off, esp. if it only comes up occassionaly.

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When Disney puts out a movie that shows a smart woman that is happy just doing what she wants, I'll start watching them. When they show that a disabled girl can be equally happy... I'll start watching them.
Have you seen Shrek or Shrek II? Mulan? There was a strong woman character in Eight Below as well. (Eight Below is not suitable for young or very sensitive children, but it is a wonderful action adventure big kids.)

I really don't care if other families have different rules for their kids, I only chimed in to say that we were mellow about this stuff and my kids are turning out great. My DDs really like themselves and value all sorts of traits about themselves -- being smart, creative, kind, good with animals, etc.

but everything has pros and cons  shrug.gif

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#67 of 124 Old 03-03-2007, 05:45 AM
 
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Please read my first post in this thread to see the kind of thinking my kids are capable of. They are bright kids who can think for themselves.

When they were very young we shielded them from most ads. As they've gotten older it is not a concern. Most of the TV shows they like are targetted at adults, so the ads are too. They like the history channel, animal planet, and discovery. We talk about ads, what they are selling, and how they are trying to convience us.

I think this is actually a reason to watch DVDs rather than TV when kids are young.
Have you read Manufacturing Consent by Noam Chomsky? One of the things that is shown is that even ADULTS have a very, very hard time making rational decisions when they are bombarded by marketing and media. Perhaps your children are the 1 in 10 million that are not affected by marketing.

I watch those same channels and especially on Animal Planet, the ads are often targeted at children. Heck even on Food Network, they have ads for junk food that make it look cool if you eat them. Parents and kids alike buy into these things. It's just human nature.

It seems to me that you have put your children on a pedestal believing that they cannot be affected my external influences. That's just my opinion. I think it's a dangerous assumption. I watch the Food Network, the History Channel and USA when my dd is in my mom's part of the house or at school. If she comes into my room while there is a commercial, no matter what it's for, she immediately stops and forgets what she was doing. She's glued to the TV. I'm aware of the effect it has on her. I don't believe there is much I can do about it except model the behavior I expect from her (think before I buy... think before I expose myself to a certain movie or show). I don't expose my brain to the insidious Disney Empire, and therefore, I don't let her be exposed either. More than turning out "great", I believe that she is turning out to be the BEST she can be by not being exposed to that.

I'll probably let her watch some TV as she gets older (instead of just videos), but I also won't falsely assume that she's not affected by the marketing that goes on BETWEEN and DURING television shows. These days television shows are one LONG AD.
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#68 of 124 Old 03-04-2007, 07:21 PM
 
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So, when a girl's father tries to dictate that his daughter can't date someone she likes, because he's not "our kind", she should be respectful? I've seen this objection to TLM before, and I don't get it at all. Her father was being a dictatorial jerk, and trying to own his daughter's romantic life in a way that I find offensive. I'd have told him to take a hike, too.

The message I got from all of that was that when parents simply dismiss their children's interests and try to lay down the law, they can expect their kids to react badly. Her dad drove her to make a bad bargain.
Hmm, I just meant that she did not live up to her family responsibilities and acts like a spoiled brat. No one has the right to shirk family duty here in our real life. And I felt that her father was just being protective, not dictator like.
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#69 of 124 Old 03-04-2007, 08:23 PM
 
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Honestly I have never put near as much thought into what every scene in those movies are portraying to my dd. I'm not saying I shouldn't, I just haven't. Sure there are some Disney movies I really don't like and there are those I don't mind. If there is something in a movie that bothers me and I feel it's age appropriate to explain to her why it bothers me then I do.

I don't mind that she wants to be a princess when she grows up. Even if she was not allowed to watch tv she'd have picked that up from the other kids her age no doubt. Like someone else said, everything in moderation. Well, except Bratz dolls. Those aren't allowed in our house...

This is an interesting post and has opened my eyes to what some of those movies are portraying but over all I don't think limited viewing of these shows gives her a bad self esteem. I watched a lot of tv growing up and I actually had a fairly good self esteem. The few years during Jr. High that I did not were due to my "friends" at my private Christian school.

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#70 of 124 Old 03-04-2007, 09:14 PM
 
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I think some Disney movies are nice, he only Disney Princess movies we have are Mulan and Aladin(Jazmin is a princess isn't it?)
Well, actually right now, while I was reading this post my boys came to me with the Brother Bear movie case and asked me if they could watch it, I said yes.
But for us, it's mainly about the different languages that they see this cartoon movies in. My boys are leading my dd to the "right way" they don't allow any pink near her, purple is ok, no Barbie dolls for her, they don't want her to end up like our neighbor(that is totally Barbie and Princess obssesed), she got a Brat Doll from some friends(she's just 14mths for God sake!) you know what they did to the doll??? They throw it away!!!
I will not allow Camille to play with Barbie's and Bratz, I thought it was cute what they did lol
She watched Little Mermaid once, it took me 15minutes to calm her down, she got scared when Ursula appeared.

I don't like Cinderella, BATB and Snow white, this movies will not exist in my house, my DH shares the same idea, She's daddy's princess anyways lol
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#71 of 124 Old 03-04-2007, 09:15 PM
 
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nak

Unfortunately, my computer has been down for a couple of days and I've missed a considerable amount of conversation regarding this topic...but considering some of the comments that were made...maybe it was a good thing :

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Originally Posted by mamabeca View Post
CDNMOM - I am so sorry for the pain you are experiencing right now with your poor sister. It's so easy to point and say THAT'S the problem, but I don't think that's going to help her or solve the problem or make anyone feel better. Obviously you can keep whatever you WANT to out of your home. The image of the lithe, slender woman being the 'perfect' specimen is just as much fantasy as the films themselves. It IS important for little girls to know that, to LEARN that. Whether you keep it out of your HOME or not, they have to learn it. Billboards, TV infomercials, magazine covers, social/peer pressure, and a thousand other things also played into your sister's idealism, and ultimately her downfall. What an incredibly hard thing to watch and not be able to control or help.
Thank you for your hugs....but no matter how many times I read this post, it still rubs me the wrong way.

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It's so easy to point and say THAT'S the problem, but I don't think that's going to help her or solve the problem or make anyone feel better.
This is really condescending on so many levels that I won't even take the time to explain its harm to me and my family.

What I will say is please reread my post. I am not posting that I felt that this was the problem.

My dying sister and ALL of the women in treatment with her have CATEGORICALLY stated that these images, whether it be Barbie or Disney Princesses or some form of, were crucial in forming their concept of body image.

This isn't something that I have pulled out of the air or my @ss to stand up on a soap box to rant about. This is from years of discussions with women dying of anorexia.

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An aside about the whole body-image/eating disorder thing: princess movies and Barbie dolls don't cause eating disorders.
Again, nowhere did I say that there is a casual effect eg) Disney/Barbie=anorexia. However, I will reiterate that these images were crucial in forming the definition of body image at an early age for these women.

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They may play a role, but it's the messages that girls get from parents, teachers, coaches, classmates, siblings, etc etc etc that build up to a distorted body image and eating disorders.
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They are getting the same message from all those people. Teachers, coaches, classmates, etc. do tell them that thin, is pretty; blond is pretty; you cannot be pretty outside of your looks.
I agree. A childs' ego is formed from birth to the age of 6 and is very fragile to outside influences. In general, parents do not understand to the extent how fragile and easily moulded childrens egos and perceptions actually are.

: Now please don't flame me regarding this comment...I am not saying that we are stupid or ignorant, what I am saying is that we may not fully understand the extent of the pliability of our childrens egos at this time.

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And then they get that same reinforcement from the people the trust the most... their parents? They see it at home through the allowed media in the house?
Finally, someone thinking outside the box...That is why, as I think velochic said, media companies spend MILLIONS on reaching our children through movies and various other media outlets. Seriously folks, read Naomi Wolf....

That is why exposure to these images are all the more insidious!!!



I have read time and time again, "I grew up with Barbie/Disney Princesses and I turned out just fine". I ask you to ask yourself then why is it that 85-90% (that being a conservative number) of women have a dismorphic image of their bodies?

Are we just fortunate at MDC that we are the 10-15% who aren't affected by western societies expectations of beauty? Really?

How many of you put on makeup in the morning and do your hair? Why? Cuz it makes you feel good? Why do we need makeup to feel good...why do we need the latest style to feel good? Just playing devils advocate here....

Feminists out there....where are you......you......you?

Again ask yourself, if these images don't contribute to the formation of body image in our girls, then where along the line do we as the female of the species change from perfectly well-adjusted girls/women, as what is being attested to here in this thread, to this 90% of women? Where?

I feel like I may be talking into a black hole...

Pleeeezze prove me wrong...discussion/thoughts?
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#72 of 124 Old 03-04-2007, 11:25 PM
 
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We are a TV free, no video, No licensed characters toys, clothes etc.. Family. We want our daughter (4 yrs) to just play without being a target of advertising or having someone else's image in her mind. ( i.e. a licensed character) She never uses the word bored. We go see many performances that are just plain fun for kids. We aspire to Waldorf philosophy that the Grimm fairytales are for a later age when she can understand them. Right now, she is in the world of make believe and is very innocent. She does not know of ToysRUs nor has she ever eaten at McD's. She has some wooden toys but mostly just regular household items as toys. No Plastic.
Elaine : )
I'm very much in agreement with this!

We are similar in our feelings about TV, commercialism, etc and we are big fans of Waldorf (my dd will start in K in Sept, looking forward)

CDNMOM: I have to say that I'm with you on most of your opinions as well. I agree that children are extremely sensitive to their environment, all of their senses are much more sensitive than adults and as adults I think it's so easy to forget this. It makes total sense to me that in your sister's case, as in many women's cases, that media greatly influenced her self-image. I do feel that there are other factors involved of course (as you mentioned) but the influence of the media should not be taken lightly.

I also fail to see where Velochic was being rude. I see strong words and opinions but I see that in other posts as well.

Mamabeca: I think you brought up a very important point. Sometimes things are tough and people do things that they don't mean to or they never thought they would. I see this more now that I have 2 children. With one child, a supportive dh, no money troubles, no health issues, family and friends around, etc it was much easier to say "I would never do.....". But add any kind of real stress to the already stressful job of being a parent and sometimes ideals fall by the wayside. Are these compromises of values? I suppose they are to a certain extent but sometimes other things take priority such as a sick child or the mental health of mom, etc.

I do think though that it's a little strange that the one example you have of a family with no TV for their dc displays them as being kind of freaky. Do you know any other children who are not exposed to TV or media?

I know lots of them and I can say, unequivocally, that I can totally tell the difference in the play of children who have been exposed to large amounts of media from those who haven't. And the older they get the more obvious this difference is.

I think throughout this thread the thing that I take the most issue with is the overall attitude that TV and movies are OK for children (content is not so relevant).

Tell me what positive thing is to be gained from allowing your dc to be exposed to TV? Movies? A 5 year old has NO WAY of grasping the meaning of what is going on in a movie!! Not to say that that alone is a compelling reason not to show any movies, but please don't think they actually understand what is going on.

Children (lets say about 7 and under) were meant to learn by moving, feeling, interacting, and imitation. Any time they spend plopped in front of a box in a trance-like state (or even mimicking the actions of the figures in the box) is taking away from their real learning and their play. Do some real research on how children learn and on the importance of free-play. TV is not mentioned!

Now you may say it's fun, but so is eating ice cream for breakfast and writing with magic marker all over your body.

In most cases, there are no compelling reasons to show any media to your dc, regardless of content. And there is definately going to be some damage.

I've heard countless people say, "my child did/didn't do this and he turned out just fine...". This may be true (and I often hear it in reference to bfeeding) to a certain extent......just as letting your kid write with magic marker all over her body, the occasional TV viewing probably isn't going to do too much damage. But to me the important thing is attitude. Do you realize what you're doing is not so good but do it anyway because you just can't help it or you're stressed out, etc? I think we can all relate to this. Or do you know it's not so good but brush it off as being OK?

How many people let their dc eat at McDonalds? To me TV/movies for dc is the same as that. It's not good for you but sometimes it just happens for some.

People do things that are not in the best interests for their children all the time. I include myself in that group of course! I sometimes let my dd eat ice cream, sometimes I bad-talk other drivers on the road, sometimes I yell, etc, but I do not deny that these things are bad for my dds. I know they are, I do my best to curb them.

I also don't think that those who manage to never show TV or never take their dc to McDs or never scream at their dc, or who bfeed, are trying to be superior or to flaunt it (although some do I'm sure). I think that when we do things that we know are not so good and we deny that and then see others managing to avoid it, then we feel a little judged.
OK, I'm not saying everyone does this but I definately have seen lots of this! Just by saying you had a natural birth you get others on the defensive, just by saying you never show TV or fed formula, you get others on the defensive......

And as for Disney? Please......I'm mad at Disney for making people think that princessess are bad, or wanting to be a princess is bad, or that pink is a bad color or that wanting to get married to a prince is bad!!

My answer to all that is read Grimms, read other fairy tales!! You'll never need TV or Disney again! Fairy tales are teaching your children all kinds of lessons, repeat the stories over and over again (don't worry about the gore, your dc probably won't mind it as long as you don't make a big deal of it) and let the morals and life lessons slowly sink into your child's soul (mind). Disney has taken these beautiful, powerful and meaningful tales and warped them to the point of irrecognition (if that's a word).

All the images that you expose your dc to through TV or a movie (especially under 7) will make imprints on his/her mind. Like a stamp, hard to remove. With reading stories your dc will form these mental images himself/herself (a little help is good like sparse illustrations or puppetry) and they will be 1000 times more creative and fantastic than anything that some Disney guy decided to plant in his/her head.
and most of all, it will be 1000 times more satisfying for your dc. when it comes down to it, TV and movies drain the soul(mind), and life and real stories feed it.
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#73 of 124 Old 03-04-2007, 11:32 PM
 
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Lion King = one brother kills another, kid takes blame

Little Mermaid = Ariel is very disrespectful to her father, still gets her prince, bad villan is overweight

Hunchback = priest lusts after girl in a bad way

Dumbo = blackface circus workers portrayed in negative light

Pocohantas = good earth friendly message, no mother figure, villan has that stereotypical Jewish look of dark hair and beaky nose

Treasure Planet= good mother figure, bad father figure, some loyalty/trust issues with new male mentor evolve


Finding Nemo = overprotective dad, dead mom, scary new mentor is a bit of a bully

Beauty and the Beast = dead mom, bumbling dad, Belle loves to read (yay!) but must be "good" to her kidnapper/abuser to turn him around

Mulan = a "failure" as a regular girl Mulan must become a man to save her dad, intact family (yay!), spitfire grandma is a plus,
hmm. weird. i saw these movies in a very different way!!

Lion King: shows how a person can act very nice and yet be deceitfully evil (for us, fit right into stranger danger conversations)

Little Mermaid: goes to great lengths to get what she wants (ok, granted, it's a man, but she still does the extra mile), and also withstands her father's wrath to do it (and i also thought he was way too authoritarian and i would have revolted, too. he was very extreme in thinking banning her stuff would make her stop being interested in what she's interested in-- sound familiar? like....banning barbie?)

Hunchback-- also overcomes possible wrath from "protector" to do what he feels is right, which is help someone. granted at first he just wanted to fit in, but can you blame him?

Dumbo-- really plays up how people who make fun of someone for being different are *ugly*, not physically, but just UGLY. and shows strong mother-love...that is so awesome.

Pocahontas-- strong woman figure, not just a ditzy pretty thing going after a man. someone marching to a different drummer. and what's with the "Jewish looks" reference? that *was* weird.

Treasure Planet-- kid who gets in trouble a lot learns valuable lessons, and is good at heart. also shows how hard it is to be a single mom.

Finding Nemo-- i LOVE the overprotective dad!! he was my mirror, and showed me, in a humorous way, the flaws in my own parenting, and in a loving way, how to let go more.
oh, and the AA references? i AM in AA, and i thought it was hilarious. my mom's in Al-Anon and she thought so, too. i *still* think it's hilarious! it's good to laugh at oneself!

Beauty and the Beast-- Belle is an intellectual, YAY! she doesn't go for the pig-headed dolt! and for once, it's the guy who's airheaded! and i didn't see it as her having to be good to her kidnapper to get away. i saw it as a kindhearted person who looks to see the good in everyone. i tend to have those qualities myself. gets me in trouble, sometimes! i LOVE belle. she's so strong.

Mulan-- another strong woman who doesn't fit in because she doesn't kowtow to the idea that a woman must be this-or-that to get a man, or that her only purpose is to get a man.

i guess this shows we all have different opinions. good thing, too; life would be so boring otherwise.

oh.....and i have a boy, 6yo. no girls. but he loved to be a princess at 3 and 4, too, and even 5. he's growing out of it. my gripe with the disney films are that they have too many guns, and like it's no big deal. are guns that "normal"?? i wouldn't let him watch....oh, what's that one.....the fox and the hound? when he was 3, because the beginning was nothing but a drunken idiot bounding through the forest shooting up this fox. for what seemed like a loooong time. i distracted him, pulled it out of the VCR, and never brought it in again.

pamela

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#74 of 124 Old 03-05-2007, 10:38 AM
 
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Pocohantas = .... no mother figure ....

Finding Nemo = ... dead mom ....

Beauty and the Beast = dead mom...
So? What are you going to do when your child comes home from school or the park and has met a friend with no mother? Or no father? So the only "perfect" Disney family is where both parents are alive? That's terribly unrealistic, and to send the message to our children that parents are immortal is doing them a disservice. Death is a part of life, and if my child questions where Nemo's mother is, I'll use that as an opportunity to talk to her about it, just as I would if she met a friend whose mother had died.

The real world (not the world of marketing), but the world where people die is not something I am going to shield my child from. Perhaps I am different then others here, but when my grandmother died my mother told my younger sisters that she "went away for a little while" instead of sitting down with them and being honest about it. Weeks went by with them watching us morn and cry, not fully understanding what happened when, in my opinion, they were more then ready to hear that she had passed away and that her death was a normal part of the circle of life. I won't perpetuate that by banning movies simply because there is a dead parent in the storyline. That's ridiculous.

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#75 of 124 Old 03-05-2007, 10:58 AM
 
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So? What are you going to do when your child comes home from school or the park and has met a friend with no mother? Or no father? So the only "perfect" Disney family is where both parents are alive? That's terribly unrealistic, and to send the message to our children that parents are immortal is doing them a disservice. Death is a part of life, and if my child questions where Nemo's mother is, I'll use that as an opportunity to talk to her about it, just as I would if she met a friend whose mother had died.

The real world (not the world of marketing), but the world where people die is not something I am going to shield my child from. Perhaps I am different then others here, but when my grandmother died my mother told my younger sisters that she "went away for a little while" instead of sitting down with them and being honest about it. Weeks went by with them watching us morn and cry, not fully understanding what happened when, in my opinion, they were more then ready to hear that she had passed away and that her death was a normal part of the circle of life. I won't perpetuate that by banning movies simply because there is a dead parent in the storyline. That's ridiculous.
The problem that I have is not that there are no mother figures or only dead mothers in Disney's films. The problem is that 99% of the films do not address it at all. They just violently kill off the mother, or she is blatantly absent (without reason) and then the girls (for the most part) have unhealthy relationships, have poor judgment and make bad decisions... until the solution to all of their problems comes along is the form of a handsome man (and suddenly all of their problems no longer exist... i.e. "happily ever after"). So girls that have faced adversity in real life are getting the message that the solution to anything in life is to find a man and get married. Do any Disney films show a girl who is facing adversity to find the solution by having empowering friends?

Disney also sends the message that being ugly on the inside is being ugly on the outside... and being pretty on the inside with being pretty on the outside. I know a lot of very, very horrible women who are gorgeous... and many women who may not turn heads, but they have hearts of gold.

I'll admit, I haven't seen any of the new movies (none since I was a kid when these movies were in the theater on their first run even ). But I see trailers... and the girls are always pretty and thin and they are the ones with "fulfilled" lives. There are a lot of less attractive (by Western standards) women and overweight women, and all sorts of not-model-thin-and-pretty women who have fulfilled lives... with men and with out them. Poor and rich. Disney never portrays these people, as far as I can tell. In fact, most of Hollywood has skewed our perceptions.
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#76 of 124 Old 03-05-2007, 11:22 AM
 
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Disney never portrays these people, as far as I can tell. In fact, most of Hollywood has skewed our perceptions.
Exactly, which is why I don't specifically take issue with just Disney. They are far too many other things to be worried about. And like other have already said, if you search for a reason to be negative, you'll find it.

I think the issues you speak of are just as, if not more, prevalent in the real world, which is where I'm going to address them. Because honestly, how many 3, 4, and 5 year olds are analyzing these movies at the same level as us adults? I watched Nemo with my friend and her daughter (because at the time I didn't have children) and she was so fascinated by Dori's memory loss and the and herd of turtles riding the Gulf Stream. She didn't give a second thought to where Nemo's mother was, or that the older fish in the tank was a "bully". I honestly think people make mountains out of mole hills when it comes to villainizing Disney. I just don't get it.

That said, I have no desire to debate it. That's my opinion, it won't change, so I'm going to bow out.

Peace.

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#77 of 124 Old 03-05-2007, 11:40 AM
 
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I am not going to defend Disney...

However, most of the films are based (however loosely) on fairy tales and fables. Dead parents-- from Cinderella to Hansel and Gretel and beyond-- is the mainstay of story-telling. Harry Potter's parents are dead as well.

There are no adventures if parents are watching.

And, fwiw, without mother -death, Marlin would simply be another unsympathetic character: just a neurotic parent overprotecing his poor little Nemo. However, as he experienced the tragic loss of his partner, and thousands of other children, a context is given for his behavior, and subsequent rebirth. (Do I need a wink-y here?)

Further, the loss of a parent is a great fear of small children, and these old stories aknowledge those fears.
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and she was so fascinated by Dori's memory loss and the and herd of turtles riding the Gulf Stream. She didn't give a second thought to where Nemo's mother was, or that the older fish in the tank was a "bully".
i was fascinated by how much they could make a cartoon fish have Ellen DeGeneres's exact facial expressions!! how weird is that.
the turtles....they were hilarious, also. i lived at the beach for 14 years and people really do talk like that!!! and when Marlin says "you're cute, but i have no idea what you are talking about!" to the turtle kid, it's really like that. it's like hearing another language. unless you have heard it ad nauseum for 14 years or watched a lot of surf movies. i live in the mountains now and i STILL say "dude" and "dudette"!

a bully? really? i never thought he was a bully. Nemo probably thought so, in hindsight, but i thought he was basically tough-loving him, or maybe more having higher expectations of Nemo because Nemo didn't think enough of his own self to believe in himself. the old fish (was it Gill?) *knew* Nemo was capable. he just wanted to show Nemo so Nemo could believe it himself. and he knew from bitter experience, as he showed later when he revealed his own "lucky fin". he knew Nemo needed someone to look up to, someone who believed in him, some way for him to believe in himself, especially at that moment cause his spirits were too low to allow himself to even try to escape.

ok am i reading too much into it? anyway i LOVE nemo. i think it's an awesome film. (you can't tell, can you? )

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i

a bully? really? i never thought he was a bully.

pamela
Gil? Oh my, I need to hang up my MDC addiction...Gil is not a bully.

Gil is the Hyde* of the movie-- the-grown-up father type- figure...but a bully? Heck, no.

Now, let me tell you my fav line. "Thinks he owns the ocean? Must be an *American*". Cracks me up every freaking time.

*Hyde-- tough, but loving, young male figure in That 70's Show. When Hyde grows up, he'll be Red. And so will Crush be Red, when he is 250.
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a bully? really? i never thought he was a bully.
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Gil? Oh my, I need to hang up my MDC addiction...Gil is not a bully.


Like I said, some people just need *something* to be negative about. Whatev.. I loved Nemo too.

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#81 of 124 Old 03-05-2007, 10:34 PM
 
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Nazi imagery? Did I miss something in both these films?
Apparently a lot of the Scar scenes are reminiscent of Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will. And there's some goose-stepping. But Walt Disney was a known Nazi sympathizer until the US got into WWII.


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I doubt anyone under 18 would recognize the shark scene as a reference to an AA meeting, but even so I would think it served to illustrate how adults sometimes need the support of their friends to help them break bad habits and stop doing things they no longer want to do. :
I would have recognized it before the age of 18. A lot of children of alcoholics/addicts are exposed to the 12-step system through things like Al-Anon when they're very young. I'm not sure what's inherently bad about the way it was portrayed in Nemo, though for my own personal life I abhor 12-step programs.

Posts like these make me feel very, very fortunate that I had a son. I was afraid of these very issues when I was pregnant, and am glad that I can raise a feminist man who's respectful of women without having to wade through the daily minefield of raising a girl in this day and age. Because I'm NOT going to be buying the Stupid Spoiled Whore Video Playset, no matter how many of the other girls at school are in to it, you know what I mean?
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#82 of 124 Old 03-06-2007, 02:32 PM
 
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But Scar is a bad guy, and what's he's doing is clearly wrong in the context of the movie. That's not PRO-Nazi imagery.
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#83 of 124 Old 03-06-2007, 05:47 PM
 
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: What??? Bambi and Little Mermaid... mother is absent. In Dumbo, at least the mother was defending her child, even if she did get punished for it.

Disney movies really irritate me. They do not think about the message they are conveying. Everyone just gets caught up in the graphics and don't bother really listening to what they are saying. Disney is racists, anti-feminist, and homophobic.
Okay
I am just reading htrough this very long thread. I have been thinking about this alot lately because DS is 3.5. It is not just the movies it is the books too.
The one thing I have been noticing is that in many of them there is this sick absence of a mother or twisted version of a mother. Lets see how many I can think of .. as already mentioned by velochic - bambi and little mermaid, snow whites mother sends a hit out on her daughter because she won't be the fairest in the land anymore! of course it is a prince that saves her (gag) and where is Cinarella's Mother? Cause her stepmother is not doing a very good job of raising her. Pinoccio is created by a man! Ha sno mother, these subtle messages are very strong! and it does mirror some of what is wrong with our culture. Can someone think of any others where mom is absent or twisted in some way?

The lion king is about pre-meditated murder - it is all about murder.

I do let my son watch cars. I talk to him about certain language and he does understand that there are some things that are not said by children. I did let him watch toy story. He was afraid of brother bear and I avoid Neemo because I remeber there being some hub bub about violence in the beginning and some little kids getting scared.

I don't have a girl yet but I find nothing wrong with the princess thing - Maybe not disney princessess per say - I do believe media can influence the way a girl or woman thinks about what is ideal ( that's why I love Dove's campains) But I think a disease like Anarexia goes alot deeper. I am not an expert or anything - but anorexia is a slow suicide and there are deeper issues than the body image, the behavior is a symptom.

Also one of the most agressive 4 y/o's I know has never seen the TV, the computer, a movie - nothing outside of a book that was carfully chosen by his very mother. He is constantly pushing, hitting, pinching, he puts his whole self into these acts he gets the strangest look in his eye when he is doing it too.

I stand by taking care of your own emotional and psycholocical health first and formost because no matter what your kids see either on tv or in the real world, your modeling and relationship with them is the biggest influence.

Someone mentioned alternatives - where can I find a list of truly child friendly movies? Or do some Mama's have some GOOD suggestions? I know it was mentioned but specifics were not given.

I am truly shocked that so many think that these disney movies are really okay. The I turned out fine doesn't sit with me because the culture in general here in the USA is not fine at all. There are always a few who are the exceptions.

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#84 of 124 Old 03-06-2007, 05:54 PM
 
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The evil stepmothers and Geppetto creating Pinocchio (although the female Blue Fairy gives him life) and the dead parents are all in the original fairy tales. And I think there are very good reasons that those elements are in them -- I think evil stepmothers give kids a safe figure to receive their angry or ambivalent feelings about their own mothers, and I think that stories about children on their own who prevail tell children that they are strong and capable, and they make the story more exciting too.

Any good collection of traditional fairy tales and folk stories, from any culture I can think of, will be far more horrifying than anything Disney does -- if anything, Disney movies tend to water the stories down and take out the more upsetting elements, like Ariel being rejected by the prince or Cinderella's sisters cutting off pieces of their feet to fit the slipper. And children have loved this kind of story for as long as there have been children; it clearly meets a need for them.

OK, you can see I have read Bruno Bettelheim.
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#85 of 124 Old 03-06-2007, 06:52 PM
 
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Okay

Also one of the most agressive 4 y/o's I know has never seen the TV, the computer, a movie - nothing outside of a book that was carfully chosen by his very mother. He is constantly pushing, hitting, pinching, he puts his whole self into these acts he gets the strangest look in his eye when he is doing it too.
Do you honestly think this is BECAUSE he doesn't watch TV? it sounds like it, I am hoping that's not what you meant.....
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#86 of 124 Old 03-06-2007, 07:33 PM
 
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The evil stepmothers and Geppetto creating Pinnochio (although the female Blue Fairy gives him life) and the dead parents are all in the original fairy tales. And I think there are very good reasons that those elements are in them -- I think evil stepmothers give kids a safe figure to receive their angry or ambivalent feelings about their own mothers, and I think that stories about children on their own who prevail tell children that they are strong and capable, and they make the story more exciting too.

Any good collection of traditional fairy tales and folk stories, from any culture I can think of, will be far more horrifying than anything Disney does -- if anything, Disney movies tend to water the stories down and take out the more upsetting elements, like Ariel being rejected by the prince or Cinderella's sisters cutting off pieces of their feet to fit the slipper. And children have loved this kind of story for as long as there have been children; it clearly meets a need for them.

OK, you can see I have read Bruno Bettelheim.
and there is no need to cut them out of stories in a book or told orally because the image is not STAMPED on a small child's mind as they are in a movie.....

my dd cracks up every time I read about Cinderella's stepsisters' getting their feet cut up, it appeals to her sense of justice, and in general I really think she enjoys the idea of "bad" or in her terms "doing naughty things" because she recognizes that part of herself as well.....

if this image were to be put in a Disney movie no one would be able to see the underlying message through the gore. of course this stuff has to be cut out.....these stories were not written with a "movie deal" in mind.....
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#87 of 124 Old 03-06-2007, 07:36 PM
 
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and there is no need to cut them out of stories in a book or told orally because the image is not STAMPED on a small child's mind as they are in a movie.....
I don't know that I buy the argument that movies "stamp" images in some more harmful or deep way than books do. I know that I've been frightened or disturbed by some books in a way that a movie can't touch, because the story takes place inside my head, you know?
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and there is no need to cut them out of stories in a book or told orally because the image is not STAMPED on a small child's mind as they are in a movie...
I can remember being completely wigged out by the imagery in fairy tales as a child. I hadn't seen them in a movie - I'd read them in a book. They stuck in my head every bit as much as anything I ever saw in a movie did. Even visual images...my mental picture of Cinderella is dark-haired, with ringlets and a huge, flowng golden gown. That was the illustration in my Cinderella book, and any other Cinderella just isn't right. I never saw her in a movie, either.

I'm not even sure why I'm posting. We don't do a lot of Disney around here, and the we only own The Little Mermaid, Aladdin (they were both ds1's when he was little) and Beauty and the Beast, which is dd's favourite. DD enjoys them all, so she gets to watch them sometimes. I just don't get this intense hatred of Disney.

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#89 of 124 Old 03-06-2007, 08:05 PM
 
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are you talking as an adult?

with adult books I have been horrified definately, the descriptions are much more detailed for adults and of course our minds are completely different from children so I wouldn't really compare them....
but maybe you meant when you were a child?

the "horror" in fairy tales is written in a very matter of fact way, and I tell them in a very matter of fact way as well.....the delivery is important as well.
my dd is not horrified by the words. there have been some images in books that have scared her such as in some of Hans Christian Anderson stuff, but I think it really depends on the book in that case.

and I agree that the imagination knows no limits (especially as a child). I see this as a reason to never show TV, first of all there is no need, second of all the imagination can be hindered by images on TV ("boxed" in), third of all the imagination that is sparked by TV is not nearly as fulfilling as that sparked by words in the air or well-done illustrations.....

I clearly remember that as a child....tv made me restless and dreaming of being inside my TV to meet these characters whereas books and oral stories had a much more satisfying effect for me......
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#90 of 124 Old 03-06-2007, 08:22 PM
 
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I was a bookish kid who also watched a lot of TV -- I don't think it hindered my imagination. And I wanted to meet book characters and movie characters about equally, I guess -- a lot of my imaginative life revolved around Prydain and the Little House books. I didn't have your experience as a child, of feeling restless and unsatisfied from watching television.

I do agree that fairy tales are told in a matter-of-fact, kind of ritualized way that makes the violence less alarming to the hearer. But I have to say, Hans Christian Anderson stories in particular (which aren't really fairy tales) exposed me to a lot more grief and horror than anything I saw on television as a young child. The Little Match Girl! The stinking Little Christmas Tree! Sheesh, I can hardly think about those NOW.
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