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#31 of 49 Old 03-04-2007, 04:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by faerierose View Post
: My ds has been interested in scouts, I don't know alot about them. I was not aware of the stance on homosexuality or religion. We are pagan and we homeschool. I have been in contact with the local group and they can't seem to get past the homeschool thing, everything is organized by the schools and grades : He was so exited about joining something where he can camp...Anyone know of any alternatives?
My DS is in Spiral Scouts. Earth based, Co-ed and fun!!
http://www.spiralscouts.org/metadot/index.pl

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" --Leonardo Da Vinci
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#32 of 49 Old 03-04-2007, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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wondering how many of those who h have responded are Christians... (?)
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#33 of 49 Old 03-04-2007, 06:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Potty Diva View Post
I do have a great alternative to scouts though for those like me who are not religious and don't believe in such things as supernatural beings.
Here is the site:
http://www.camp-quest.org/
That looks like it's just a camp, though. What about weekly meetings and projects the way BSA and GSUSA have?
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#34 of 49 Old 03-04-2007, 06:54 PM
 
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I can't argue for the stance on homosexuality and religion except to say being a private organization, they can set their own rules.
Except they operate in public buildings, use government funding, etc. That, in and of itself, would make it NOT a private organization.

I would be fine with their stances if they WERE a private organization, but enough research into the subject tells me that my tax dollars help FUND this organization, therefore making it NOT a private organization.

For example, their little summer gathering that takes place I believe every 4 years or so, is held on government-owned land, which they are allowed to rent for ... $1. Meanwhile, our military-men help set up and run this party, costing an average of $5 million tax dollars per gathering. Hrmm.. private organization my rear.

If one does some reserach, you'd be surprised how much public funding goes to a "private" organization that excludes certain children.
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#35 of 49 Old 03-05-2007, 01:21 AM
 
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Except they operate in public buildings, use government funding, etc. That, in and of itself, would make it NOT a private organization.
Not around here, they don't...

Jen, former attorney and now SAHM to 11 yo ds and 8 yo ds

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#36 of 49 Old 03-05-2007, 03:51 PM
 
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Where I live they use school buildings for their meetings, completely free of charge.

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#37 of 49 Old 03-05-2007, 05:07 PM
 
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I know enough that none of my boys will be joining. I don't like their stance on homosexuality or non-Christians.
Same here.

SANDRA, 41 year old VERY laid-back mama to VERY free range kids Brett (16), Justus (11), Autumn (4), and Ayla (1)... four perfect NCB's! :::
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#38 of 49 Old 03-05-2007, 05:56 PM
 
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Not around here, they don't...
YES, they do!
This is a publically supported "private" club so no they houldn't be able to discriminate!

The Publically Supported Private Club

The BSA receives a number of benefits that would not be coming to it if it were truly a private group. For example, it is part of the Combined Federal Campaign [CFC], the program under which Federal employees get paid leave of absence in order to fund raise. All across the country public lands and parks are dedicated to scouting interests. This includes Fort Hill where the National Jamboree is held. The US Government maintains that facility for no other purpose.

An to clarify an apparent lack of knowledge when discussing the orginal intention of the scouts"

There is no mention of any god or religion in the original charter, which grants BSA exclusive monopoly use of the term "scouts" (later amended to allow the same for a separate Girl Scouts organization), and it probably would not have been approved by congress if there had been. It was only after the congressional charter was obtained that the word reverent was added as the twelfth scout law, and it was only in 1970 that failure to profess a religion became adequate grounds for immediate expulsion.
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#39 of 49 Old 03-05-2007, 09:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Potty Diva View Post
YES, they do!
This is a publically supported "private" club so no they houldn't be able to discriminate!

The Publically Supported Private Club

The BSA receives a number of benefits that would not be coming to it if it were truly a private group. For example, it is part of the Combined Federal Campaign [CFC], the program under which Federal employees get paid leave of absence in order to fund raise. All across the country public lands and parks are dedicated to scouting interests. This includes Fort Hill where the National Jamboree is held. The US Government maintains that facility for no other purpose.

An to clarify an apparent lack of knowledge when discussing the orginal intention of the scouts"

There is no mention of any god or religion in the original charter, which grants BSA exclusive monopoly use of the term "scouts" (later amended to allow the same for a separate Girl Scouts organization), and it probably would not have been approved by congress if there had been. It was only after the congressional charter was obtained that the word reverent was added as the twelfth scout law, and it was only in 1970 that failure to profess a religion became adequate grounds for immediate expulsion.
I guess I should have clarified that what I meant was that in this area they are not allowed to use public buildings for meeting due to their discrimination.

HTH

Jen, former attorney and now SAHM to 11 yo ds and 8 yo ds

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#40 of 49 Old 03-05-2007, 10:29 PM
 
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Jen,

This is again incorrect. It isn't local donations but FEDERAL. Your troops just like every other BSA troop accepts FEDERAL funding and are actually PAID by the government. I can give you links if you would like.
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#41 of 49 Old 03-06-2007, 01:39 AM
 
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Jen,

This is again incorrect. It isn't local donations but FEDERAL. Your troops just like every other BSA troop accepts FEDERAL funding and are actually PAID by the government. I can give you links if you would like.
Let me try again; around here the Boy Scouts are not allowed to use public buildings such as schools or city-sponsored buildings.

That's all I was trying to say. I don't need to see links about federal funding as that's not at all what my point was.

Jen, former attorney and now SAHM to 11 yo ds and 8 yo ds

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#42 of 49 Old 03-06-2007, 09:04 AM
 
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so you do understand that the BSA is NOT a private organisation using only private funds and that because it receives PUBLIC sponsorship it should not be allowed to discriminate?

That our government sponsors and supports this organisation?

Which was my point. I see they use church buildings for meetings- good.
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#43 of 49 Old 03-06-2007, 09:42 AM
 
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Aura Kitten kindly requested basic information, not lectures about the evils of the BSA and GSUSA.

I think it is highly disrespectful to make this thread into a debate when she asked us not to make it into that.

Bottom line, if you don't want your child in those clubs, don't let them join.

My take on it: I was a Girl Scout and had a lot of fun doing it. I went up into Cadettes before dropping out. I had experiences I would have never had, if I had not been a Scout. My two cousins are Eagle Scouts. I think that there are probably worse things a boy or girl could be doing other than Scounts. But I still have a lot of concerns and am still checking things out before I would allow my boys to join.
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#44 of 49 Old 03-06-2007, 11:44 AM
 
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Let me try again; around here the Boy Scouts are not allowed to use public buildings such as schools or city-sponsored buildings.

That's all I was trying to say. I don't need to see links about federal funding as that's not at all what my point was.

If those schools and other public buildings aren't allowing them to use them they better not be allowing anyone else. Free access laws mean you have to allow anyone not just groups/people you agree with or not allow anyone.

These laws are what are being used to get GLBT groups into schools http://www.religioustolerance.org/equ_acce.htm
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#45 of 49 Old 03-06-2007, 01:55 PM
 
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If those schools and other public buildings aren't allowing them to use them they better not be allowing anyone else. Free access laws mean you have to allow anyone not just groups/people you agree with or not allow anyone.

These laws are what are being used to get GLBT groups into schools http://www.religioustolerance.org/equ_acce.htm
They allow organizations free use who do not discriminate based on sexual orientation and religion. I don't know all the details, but I do know it has been extensively vetted in the courts here and the cities and school districts do not allow BSA to use their facilities for free.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evans_v._Berkeley

Jen, former attorney and now SAHM to 11 yo ds and 8 yo ds

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#46 of 49 Old 03-06-2007, 02:47 PM
 
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Because of their stance on homosexuality and religion, we have chosen not to let our son be part of the organization, even though we aren't gay and we are Christians. But we do not want to send our money to an organization that we disagree with. And there are national dues that do, in part, support their fight to proclaim their viewpoint. Yes, they are a private religious organization (went all the way to the supreme court to be so declared) and as such are entitled to set membership and leadership criteria. And because they do, we choose not to support them. My DH is an Eagle Scout and this was really hard for him to have to say, but he is really adament that his son won't be part of this organization. We are also very troubled by the fact that they are private group that discriminates but are given all sorts of cheap rent on land and free meeting places that are denied to other such groups.

There are other alternative organizations though that let boys have many of the same experiences. We've chosen the YMCA adventure guides program. Very similar activities and values, just without the anit-gay stance. And, while the YMCA started as a Christian organization, I haven't seen anything discriminatory from them on religion (or lack of) either. However, it does require a parental commitment as its a parent/child organization so a parent has to participate in every outing in order for the child to go. At our Y there are father/son, father/daughter, mother/son and mother/daughter groups and they all meet about 2X/month -- one small group meeting and on large group one.

I was Camp Fire (girl) throughout school and I would gladly have both of my children in that organization. Unfortunately they aren't very active here so we had to look elsewhere.
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#47 of 49 Old 03-12-2007, 10:22 PM
 
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My husband suggests http://www.campfireusa.org/start.asp. He's just started to look into it. Co-ed and looks pretty good. He's always trying to find programs similar to BSA in case parents/kids are interested in outdoor programs without the religious aspect.
Afer I read this I located a Campfire group near my home. We just got back from the meeting and I have to say it was the worst child related activity I have ever been to: I'm sure that their are some great groups out there but this one made me want to run as far and as fast as I could. The "leaders" were rude and inattentive, the kids were mostly unsurpervised outside, the "project" was a joke...and they weren't even prepared for it. There was a toddler w/ the leader and she kept telling him "I want your mommy to get here already, I'm stuck watching you" and when the mom showed up she walked in and told this 18month old "your bad! Where are your shoes" The other kids were telling eachother exactly how retarted everything was, calling eachother stupid and ugly. And they acted like I was strange because I wasn't just dropping ds off with people I've never met: We won't be going back. Now I need to find out who I need to e-mail to let them know how this group is representing Campfire USA, and hpefully get my registration fee back!
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#48 of 49 Old 03-13-2007, 10:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Potty Diva View Post
YES, they do!
This is a publically supported "private" club so no they houldn't be able to discriminate!

The Publically Supported Private Club

The BSA receives a number of benefits that would not be coming to it if it were truly a private group. For example, it is part of the Combined Federal Campaign [CFC], the program under which Federal employees get paid leave of absence in order to fund raise. All across the country public lands and parks are dedicated to scouting interests. This includes Fort Hill where the National Jamboree is held. The US Government maintains that facility for no other purpose.

An to clarify an apparent lack of knowledge when discussing the orginal intention of the scouts"

There is no mention of any god or religion in the original charter, which grants BSA exclusive monopoly use of the term "scouts" (later amended to allow the same for a separate Girl Scouts organization), and it probably would not have been approved by congress if there had been. It was only after the congressional charter was obtained that the word reverent was added as the twelfth scout law, and it was only in 1970 that failure to profess a religion became adequate grounds for immediate expulsion.
I'm not sure the linked site is entirely credible. If you click on a link at the bottom of the essay, there is a page where someone disputes many points this guy makes, or at least asks him for sources, which the author cannot provide. One of the sources he says was there, but the link no longer works. Convenient. I would think if this stuff were true, he'd be able to at least provide references. The essay is his opinion, not a documented article.

I'm not saying he doesn't have some little bits and pieces of fact in there, but it is hard to tell which is which as he offers NO documentation. So, what is true and what is he assuming and jumping to conclusions on? Who knows? But, it is not enough to sway my opinion on cub scouts.

I do KNOW that our local council recieves no funding what so ever. They just sent a letter out to everyone in the local boy scout council that they will most likely have to start charging a council fee next year, seperate from the pack and den fees that we aleady pay, because they have ZERO funds to work with. They don't recieve any of the pack and den fees - those all stay with our pack and den and go towards activities. And, they don't get any funds from anywhere else - government or otherwise. Our pack does not fund raise - not even the popcorn sales that a lot of scouts do. Kids fundraising for anything is really frowned upon here (thankfully!).

Our local pack is sponsored by another private organization, not a government entity. I'm not disputing that other packs are sponsored by government entity's because I don't know if they are or not. But they are not all and to assume that they are is just not true (that's from the article, not anything anyone wrote here).

I really don't want to get into a debate on here about this, but I do just cringe when I see misinformation being floated around like it is a hard fact. And, I hope that everyone would look at the article critically and not take it as all fact, as with anything you find on the internet. If you are going to make life decisions on what you read or hold strong opinions based on it, you should make sure it is a credible source.
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#49 of 49 Old 03-14-2007, 12:34 AM
 
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Aside from the off topic.
I have been involved with Scouting for 6 years, two of my boys are now Boy Scouts, and I was a den leader for 3 years.
I would higly suggest to check out several packs, meet the den leaders for that age (or grade)--homeschooled would be age appropriate group... and even get some phone numbers of those den leaders and call.
Now as a den leader I didn't require a whole lot out of my den parents, I also thought most of the acheivements should be done in the den meeting, rather then just having a chat gathering... now the other den for the same rank just played games and had the parents do the acheivements at home. So ask about this! Some things do need to be done at home, but IMO most should be done at the meeting.
Also check the leaders, see if they seem to get along, and are apparently having a good time. If not... go away, if they seem stressed with the kids, find a different pack.
As a den leader, I let the religious portion be up to the parents, and I never emphasized any religion at all, and basically said it was a personal and family issue and not needed to be shared with the group. But this is up to each den leader....
I definately strayed from the "typical" den leader, but that's my style, I had a few boys with some problems and really had to improvise to keep everyone on the same level, without making anyone feel left out.

But my boys have LOVED scouting, they are talking about staying in it for the long haul... years!!! And I even have them volunteer with the Cub Scouts, do work, and other things their own troop doesn't require of them!

one bad thing:
When we moved our oldest son went with a troop which was hosted by a Baptist church... they said they wouldn't send any boy to Eagle who wasn't saved... we soon left for a different troop.
Donna
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