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#91 of 114 Old 03-18-2007, 06:55 PM
 
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Just a thought...a mama posted about her dc being present at the birth center for her vaginal. Would you feel comfortable if your dc got up and moved to where she could see better?

What could you do if she did that? I mean your spread eagle on the table, kwim? Any sort of raising your voice or saying that's not ok, might be the start of some weird feelings. Then, if the mw can look at your privates and your dc can't when your on the table, how would that work out? Maybe dc would feel like she wasn't good enough after all you let this mw lady look and not her...

Just thinking out loud.
The MW can also touch your privates, because it's her job. I'm sorry, but if my kid had "weird feelings" because mama has common-sense boundaries, there are deeper issues going on within the family.
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#92 of 114 Old 03-18-2007, 06:59 PM
 
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The MW can also touch your privates, because it's her job. I'm sorry, but if my kid had "weird feelings" because mama has common-sense boundaries, there are deeper issues going on within the family.
Oh no, I guess I wasn't very clear. I was thinking more along the lines of dd being there for the vaginal and then her moving so that she was looking from the midwifes pov. Then mom would say "no honey, come up here by mommys head. I don't want you down there."

I know my dd2 would be taken aback if I even had a little distain in my voice. However, if I tried to say it as nicely as I can, then dd2 would pretty much ignore me and keep doing what she was doing. There is not much that I can do being up on the table with a speculum in place.

Also, wouldn't it be different if she was present for the vag exam and down with the midwife? Then it would be kind of like a health lesson in a doctors office, not much CPS can do about that.

Not saying that you should make an appointment just for that but, if thigs just worked out that way. I just don't see what you could do from up on the table.

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#93 of 114 Old 03-18-2007, 09:10 PM
 
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Question: You say your DH isnt alloweed to wash your DD's privates, what happens if you are away and they need baths.

My kids are 4 and 2, and dh gives them baths a lot (when he gets home from work, he generally takes over child care).

You don't need to wash vaginas...getting soap down there is BAD...so there's no need.

Also, both girls know how to wash their own bottoms and around their vagina.
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#94 of 114 Old 03-18-2007, 09:12 PM
 
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Dude, but Annie Sprinkle is also an ex-prostitute and porn star. So, there's some predisposition to exhibitionism for profit there.
Yeah, that. She's an advocate of prostitution and major *sexual* exhibitionism.
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#95 of 114 Old 03-18-2007, 09:39 PM
 
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This thread is sooo interesting to read! I had flashbacks to my own childhood when first reading the post--asked mom to see a pic of a penis, and she gave me "where did I come from". no good--I wanted to see the real thing, although the educational aspect of the book was good. I just had rapt fascination. But then later posts got me thinking..... we have a mouth, for intake, and lots of reproductive-esque uses. We have all the down-belows, for output and lots of reproductive-esque things. If we really boil it down, all the orifices are equally as physically and functionally important, so it dawned on me, we let kids check out our teeth and mouths and armpits and whatnot. Our society has really done a number on us that it's so uncomfortable to let kids see the other parts. (don't get me wrong, here, I'm in the, uh, I don't think I'd allow an inspection of my own, camp). But then I got thinking too--the vag exam question--we let kids watch childbirth, so why not let em take a look at a cervix? (but hands off). And from a kid's POV: How come we get to see their privates and touch and wash and medicate and whatever them, but they never get to see ours? I sit here scratching my head at how silly we humans really are after all. I wish society at large didn't have to be sooooo hung up on the privates, and I wish people would quit hurting kids so we could all go around in our naked glory and have no worries.

Anyway--to the OP: if kid keeps it up, there's bound to be a medical instructional video on the parts (and those will be real), My folks finally let me see a book called "the sex book" with real pics in there, and a glossary-type thing. I think I was seven. I think I memorized it. Fascinating.
Also plenty of porn out there, but, uh, probably not so good for a kid to be copying that particular activity at a young age. you could have a future brilliant vagina-scientist on your hands.
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#96 of 114 Old 03-18-2007, 09:46 PM
 
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I hate words like common sense and inappropriate being thrown around. For you and your family perhaps, but not as absolutes.

I would let my children see siblings being born right up close if that is what they wanted. When my daughter was potty learning, she wanted to see where th pee came out when I was peeing, and i let her. It isn't a big deal here.

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#97 of 114 Old 03-18-2007, 09:53 PM
 
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My children go to all my doc/dentist appointments, so at my last pelvic, dd (almost 4 at the time) walked up for a closer look while doc had the speculum in me. He and the nurse looked at me and he said, "Mom, do you care?" and I said no. I wouldn't have felt differently if she was a boy. I think it demystifies it for you to just act like it is another part of the body. Ds always knew that was where he came out and bathed with me until he was 6, at which time he decided he was too old. The girls still bathe with me and occasionally I have to ask them to remove their foot from my vulva (seriously 2 -4yos and a 37yo do not fit in the tub with a lot of room to spare).

If I had accomplished my goal of homebirth, ds would have been welcome to watch if he had wanted to (which he swears he wouldn't have, but whattya expect, he was 9).
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#98 of 114 Old 03-18-2007, 10:05 PM
 
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whoa, definately a touchy subject here!

I never said that I know of cultures where moms are getting spread eagle and showing their vaginas to their kids......I said there are many places where this is really not an issue.....I think it's all about having a casual attitude about it.......

I would like to reiterate that this (as most topics) really depends on the child's age!

At 2 and under, the child is still a baby, they just passed between your legs not too long ago, how could it be inappropriate to show the vagina? A 2 year old cannot be taught about privacy and be expected to understand it.
Again, I'm not saying that you SHOULD do it, and if you're uncomfortable then that's fine too. (but I do sense a lot of judgement toward those who are OK with it)

at 5, come on.....who's going to lay spread eagle and show their anatomy to their child?? very few people I believe......

Also, I don't think it's necessary for ANYONE to lay down and spread their legs and discuss their anatomy with a child, ever. What I'm talking about is a scenario like this: You get out of the shower, your 2 year old who is with you all day every day, even when you poop, wants to see your chacha, so you let her/him look, she wants to see more so you let her check it out a little.....it doesn't have to be spread eagle......he doesn't have to touch it or inspect it inside in great detail.......

Now if a 5 year old does it I would approach it differently, but honestly, I think that if there is a healthy casual attitude about the body in general it won't become an issue (this is what I meant about other cultures that have a lot less hangups about the body than the US, cultures where Christianity has not permeated every aspect of life) In Japan it is not at all unusual to see a 10 year old girl bathe with her father......no one bats an eye....

And it is a well-known fact that in many, many countries in the world Americans are notorious for being uptight about sex and nudity but at the same time, obsessed with it.

It's not a big deal really.....actually I think it's kind of funny that people are taking this so seriously......

as a side note: I so no need to teach anatomy in general at such a young age. If my 5 yr old asks me what a vagina or penis is for or something I would come up with a light, truthful answer that does not lead into an over-intellectualized discussion......just as I would if I was asked about the lungs or heart....
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#99 of 114 Old 03-18-2007, 10:56 PM
 
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I hate words like common sense and inappropriate being thrown around. For you and your family perhaps, but not as absolutes.

I would let my children see siblings being born right up close if that is what they wanted. When my daughter was potty learning, she wanted to see where th pee came out when I was peeing, and i let her. It isn't a big deal here.
I assume you're responding to my post. Yes, I think it's common sense to not have your children touching your private areas. I can't think of a society where it is appropriate or acceptable. That whole incest taboo and whatnot.

I also don't have a problem with witnessing birth. Has anyone said that they see a problem with that on this board? I would be surprised. It is a natural and commonplace occurence in the animal and human worlds alike. Playing show and tell with the private areas, not so much.
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#100 of 114 Old 03-18-2007, 10:58 PM
 
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My children are homeschooled and it just so happened that I didn't have childcare for my gynecologist appointment, so they had front row seats.
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#101 of 114 Old 03-18-2007, 10:59 PM
 
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May May
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#102 of 114 Old 03-19-2007, 12:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lanamommyphd07 View Post
Anyway--to the OP: if kid keeps it up, there's bound to be a medical instructional video on the parts (and those will be real), My folks finally let me see a book called "the sex book" with real pics in there, and a glossary-type thing. I think I was seven. I think I memorized it. Fascinating.
Also plenty of porn out there, but, uh, probably not so good for a kid to be copying that particular activity at a young age. you could have a future brilliant vagina-scientist on your hands.
: Um,well,uh gee.....oh man,nevermind...
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#103 of 114 Old 03-19-2007, 12:19 AM
 
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I assume you're responding to my post. Yes, I think it's common sense to not have your children touching your private areas. I can't think of a society where it is appropriate or acceptable. That whole incest taboo and whatnot.

I also don't have a problem with witnessing birth. Has anyone said that they see a problem with that on this board? I would be surprised. It is a natural and commonplace occurence in the animal and human worlds alike. Playing show and tell with the private areas, not so much.
No one said anything about touching. No I have no problem with my children seeing. They come to my gyn appts. They witness births. They have seen me pee. It is not a big deal for us, so it may be common sense for you, but I don't think it is an absolute. No.

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#104 of 114 Old 03-19-2007, 12:23 AM
 
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Interesting post!

I'd be completely comfortable with my dd at a birth. I'm not pg, but she'd absolutely be at the birth if I was! She's facinated with birth and has seen numerous videos and photos.

I do feel a bit odd about the idea of "spreading" for your dc, but it's also all about the words, KWIM? It IS simply a body part and it's only the society that we live in that makes it a "private" part.

But then, it still makes me a bit uncomfortable. I'll have to roll this one around a bit!

Jen, L&D RN, CBE, CLEC who loves to knit.gif! I adore my modifiedartist.gifDP, treehugger.gifDD 10/98, & sweet new babygirl.gif5/10!!!
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#105 of 114 Old 03-19-2007, 09:25 AM
 
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I think a pp has already said this, but since YOU are uncomfortable with it then, no, I don't think you should. What you are then showing your child is boundaries. That you trust your instincts and have self respect to say NO when you are uncomfortable (regardless if whether or not in the US we should feel that way or not).

As a survivor of sexual abuse, and growing up with absolutley no sexual information (even on my wedding day, at 32, my mother still wouldn't tell me anything!) I am very sensitive to not be secretive or shameful about our bodies but to also teach my children boundaries and the ability to say no at any time when they are uncomfortable regarding their bodies/private parts.

I would be *alarmed* if a friends child came to me and said "parent showed me his/her vagina/penis"....just as I have been alarmed to have a child ask me to touch/tickle/kiss them on their genitals(and yes, this really did happen to me and of course I said NO).

Showing, in graphic detail, I think is a slippery slope because what child is content to just look and not touch? In the moment it may all feel innocent, and very well may be innocent, and then before you know it, your child is touching you in a way you certainly wouldn't want your child touched. I mean, your laying there and it's ok for YOU to touch yourself, so your child may want to touch you...may reach out his/her hand and what do you do then? Pull their hand away? All of a sudden it's NOT ok? Too confusing for a child. Too much information. I don't think I am stating this very well, so please don't flame me....: I am also thinking of a pp's post where she mentions the whole scenario of going to australia (forgive me for not quoting the post). Sometimes, for our children's safety and for their own good, we need to say no. My children do not get everything they want and just because they want something doesn't mean I have to accommodate them.

I also want to comment on the DCF issue. Just because the "government" doesn't think something is right doesn't mean we have to bow to them. I dont' vax my kids and never will, for example. However, that doesn't mean I am going to deliberately do something that *may* result in my child being taken from me, whether I agree with it or not. That is the reality of where I live. I may not think smoking pot is all that bad but would never do it, or have it in my home in the chance that my child might be taken from me if it were found. Maybe I'm paranoid or but I have seen DCF work here in Florida and I'll be DEAD before someone has a legitimate reason to take my child from me.

Ok, that's it. Sorry for the rant or if this wasnt' written well. I have very strong feelings on this subject, and as you can see, for a variety of reasons.
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#106 of 114 Old 03-19-2007, 09:28 AM
 
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Showing, in graphic detail, I think is a slippery slope because what child is content to just look and not touch? In the moment it may all feel innocent, and very well may be innocent, and then before you know it, your child is touching you in a way you certainly wouldn't want your child touched. I mean, your laying there and it's ok for YOU to touch yourself, so your child may want to touch you...may reach out his/her hand and what do you do then?
You could try telling them no.

I really don't see what the huge, giant deal is here.
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#107 of 114 Old 03-19-2007, 02:12 PM
 
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I absolutely do NOT think that is appropriate. I do not think child services would look too kindly on it either.
Yep, if he really wanted to see it I would check out A Child is born from your library. This is what I showed DS1 when I was PG with DS2.

Unassisted birthing, atheist, poly, bi WOHM to 4 wonderful, smart homeschooling kids Wes (14) Seth (7) Pandora Moonlilly (2) and Nevermore Stargazer (11/2012)  Married to awesome SAH DH.

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#108 of 114 Old 03-19-2007, 02:20 PM
 
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Question: You say your DH isnt alloweed to wash your DD's privates, what happens if you are away and they need baths.
I'm assuming there would be a wash cloth involved.

Unassisted birthing, atheist, poly, bi WOHM to 4 wonderful, smart homeschooling kids Wes (14) Seth (7) Pandora Moonlilly (2) and Nevermore Stargazer (11/2012)  Married to awesome SAH DH.

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#109 of 114 Old 03-19-2007, 06:03 PM
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Interesting thread. I think from my perspective, my unwillingness to spread it or allow touching is not based on body parts being shameful or embarassing, or any other hangups, but rather trying to present a clear, consistent message about private parts in the context of sexual abuse. Sadly in our society, we cannot rely on all adults to protect our children. As parents who want to protect our kids, we have no choice but to try and educate them about private parts and when touchin/looking is not ok (and I'm not sure that seeing anyone's genitals outside of the immediate family would ever be ok). Perhaps it is wrong, or even ineffective, to expect children to apply what we teach them about their genitals to situations where sexual abuse could be happening. It seems unfair to expect kids to have any responsibility in the situation of sexual abuse, but if a clear discussion about what touching and looking is okay and what is not could *POSSIBLY* prevent sexual abuse, then I think most parents are willing to at least have the conversation.

The problem I have with spreading it is it blurs the boundaries and could effectively negate any of the boundaries about private parts I have established. Why is it ok to look at Dad's penis, but the police come if a stranger at the playground shows children his (how could we expect kids to delineate?)? The original post is about a boy child wanting to see a mom's vagina- what if it was a girl child wanting to see Dad's penis, or wanting to see Dad's erect penis? In the mind of a child, what distinguishes seeing Dad's erect penis when he wakes up in the morning, from looking at a friend's dad's erect penis at a sleepover? Children SHOULD NOT even have to worry about being sexually violated, but by allowing looking or touching aren't we as parents effectively blurring the line in an effort to not convey shame? It seems counteractive to any effort to protect our children from sexual predators.

I believe anatomy books and even childbirth videos can offer the info that children want. If we expect them to establish boundaries with their bodies, how come we don't need to lead by example? Are we putting too much responsibility onto our kids to know the difference between looking at Dad's anus and looking at the preschool teacher's or little league coach's?
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#110 of 114 Old 03-22-2007, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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good discussion on boundaries. In fact this whole discussion has been excellent. thanks all, and I look forward to seeing if others have thoughts / experiences to share.
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#111 of 114 Old 03-22-2007, 07:04 PM
 
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Your children came out of your vaginas. They had the most intimate details of all your bits revealed to them at their births. You are their Mom and the safest source to satsify their curiosity. I would much rather show a son or daughter of mine my vagina *in context* - like at a well woman exam or while in the bathtub - but I would still show them even if it seemed to come out of the blue. Better them seeing my vagina for a moment and fully satisfying their curiosity than putting it off as "private" so that they never know and go seek the info from somewhere/someone else.

Guess who I discovered what a vagina was from? My next door neighbor's child who was around the same age as me. Thats a much less safe environment, I think.

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#112 of 114 Old 03-23-2007, 03:23 PM
 
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Ahh yet another thing we'll never get to experience thanks to having boy/girl twins. They know ALL about boy parts & girl parts, and could care less as a result, lol.
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#113 of 114 Old 03-24-2007, 05:48 PM
 
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I really like your points, Amber Lion.
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#114 of 114 Old 03-24-2007, 06:25 PM
 
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Your children came out of your vaginas. They had the most intimate details of all your bits revealed to them at their births.
I liked your post but would caution you about assumptions like this that don't hold true for many women on MDC...

Jen, former attorney and now SAHM to 11 yo ds and 8 yo ds

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