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#61 of 125 Old 03-30-2007, 03:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ashtree View Post
I can't quote large posts, I still havent figured that out, so I'm going to reply to as much as I can before DS wakes up.
To post to sections like this you just put [/QUOTE] at the end of the section you are quoting.

To quote the next one put [QUOTE=ashtree] (or whatever username) at the front of the post and the same type of command at the end as stated above.

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Originally Posted by ashtree
As far as not having the resources or ability to homeschool, I do not know your particular situation but I know that me and my dh make LOTS of sacrifices so that it can happen. It's a matter of priorities for us. I'm sorry that you are unable to homeschool, and I'm sorry for making it sound so simple. It was extremely arrogant of me, and written in the heat of the moment.
Thank you for apologizing. I really wish it was so simple. I loved homeschooling my crew, it was great. Unfortunately my schooling picked up considerably (3-4 classes every 10 weeks) and I was unable to commit to schooling my children as I would have liked. Our children's education is still a huge priority for us and my presence at their school (when there are issues) is evident of that. I was highly annoying (at least they thought so) the first six weeks the kids were back in school in November.

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Originally Posted by ashtree
I have no solution for anyone entering their children in the public school system. I honestly wish there were one and that I could share it with you.
I doubt there are any solutions honestly. I am very thankful to have very strong minded children who will let anyone who insults then know exactly what they think, especially my daughter. She definately can hold her own and isn't afraid to do so. The body image bs doesn't affect her nearly as much as I am sure it does other children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashtree
I honestly feel with all my heart that video games and TV (and the internet) are not good for a childs development. I have no research to back that up, but I've seen my ds watching TV (someone elses house) and it wasn't a positive experience. Just as I've seen kids playing video games get frustrated and angry, and play for hours. It sounds like no one here lets their kids play that long, (good for you!) but growing up I watched my brothers choose video games over almost anything, and they stayed grumpy and irritable all day. (there were no limitations in our home) I'm not saying I will allow video games in moderation. They are not for us. But, I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad for allowing them in their homes. I simply got defensive about the situation and was feeling cornered.
You didn't make me feel bad about allowing them in my home. I am just as confident in my decision as you are in yours. We just happen to be on opposite ends of the debate. My crew are limited in their game time and tv time as well as their computer time. We call it the electronic time at our house. I don't care which electronic device you choose, you have this amount of time to divide it how you see fit. I tried the whole idea of letting them limit themselves and they did stay on all day long. That is why we have a limit in place now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashtree
As the person doing most of the home/unschooling in the home, when it comes to our children and their education I do have veto power. besides my dh works a lot and i hate to think that he would want to spend his home ours playing video games, or watching our ds play games. He usually only plays his ds (hehe) after our ds goes to sleep-but sometimes plays on the weekends for 20 mintues or so.
My husband also works a lot of hours. We do discuss and compromise where we disagree. I am not sure I can think of anything I vetoed that my husband felt was an option. We find a compromise somewhere in the middle if necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashtree
as far as computer use in the home. i try to limit it to checking my email in the morning, and while ds naps, and then at night after he goes to sleep. I AM currently addicted to the computer. I recognize that, and am trying to take steps towards weening myself. THis thread isnt helping.
I go in spurts of addiction to the computer. I don't have as much time right now to be on it, but I do still check my emails several times a day.

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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#62 of 125 Old 03-30-2007, 03:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ashtree View Post
I honestly feel with all my heart that video games and TV (and the internet) are not good for a childs development. I have no research to back that up, but I've seen my ds watching TV (someone elses house) and it wasn't a positive experience.
You have to do what you feel is best for your family; we all do. While you may feel frustrated by the level of electronic media involvement/approval by fellow MDC members, at least you are in one of the few spaces where no one will try to convince you that TV or video games are necessary to a child's development.

To cut and paste parts of large quotes, edit out the text you don't want, then highlight each quote you wish to respond to and click the "quote button" (it looks like a dialog balloon, third from the right) in full edit mode. The proper formatting will be done for you. You can get fancy and add in user names by adding =username (look at the very first quotemarker when you start a new post with a quote to see where to add it).

It took me awhile to figure it out, but to quote multiple posts, click the multiple post button (a quotation mark followed by a plus sign) on all the posts you want to quote, then go down to the bottom of the page and click "Post Reply." It's a bit counter-intuitive because usually you hit "Post Reply" when you don't wish to quote.
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#63 of 125 Old 03-30-2007, 03:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jimibell View Post
how old are your children Cinder?

it sounds like you are actively involved with them. Why would you do this type of activity when you have the time? Why not take them outdoors and play with a real bat? or run and dance and play with them without the TV or screen involved? Their following the TV or acting out the scenarios on TV is robbing them oppurtunities to develop their imagination and creativity.

Child-led, unstructured play is the best way for your child to get physical activity and to develop intelligence and creativity!!
I am not Cinder, obviously, but we similar to what she discribed. One of the reasons we don't go outside to play ball is it can get as cold as -7 here in the winter. DD plays in the snow but eventually she comes inside. During the months when it is warm we do not stay in the house.
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#64 of 125 Old 03-30-2007, 06:00 PM
 
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Ashtree-

I agree with you that video games are unhealthy. I am surprised and sorry that you have been so attacked by pro-gamers when you came here seeking support for your anti-gaming position.

I have a problem in that my older boys do almost *nothing but* play video games for two weeks at a time during visitation with their father a number of times per year. My 9yo ds (who is more addicted to the games than my 12 yo) is a *very* different kid when he comes home than when he leaves. After 10-15 hours per day of video and computer games for two weeks at a time, he is inattentive, can't focus, and doesn't want to do anything requiring mental or physical work. He is also mildly depressed during these time periods. It takes about two weeks for him to detox.

I think that allowing ANY video games into your home, even with rules, will lead to a slippery slope of rules being changed and disregarded.

I used to allow my kids to play educational computer games, but it morphed into them begging to play and breaking the rules to get more time. A few years ago I instituted a NO computer time policy, and life has been happy ever since. They only time they use the computer now is about once per week to type a paper that they have first written and editted by hand.

I have a bunch of links to give you. Unfortunately, many of my links about this topic have become old and broken since I saved them when researching this topic. I will give you what I can in the next post. I already typed this once and then lost it trying to go back and forth between here and the links.

~ Amy ~

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#65 of 125 Old 03-30-2007, 06:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Amy in NH View Post
I think that allowing ANY video games into your home, even with rules, will lead to a slippery slope of rules being changed and disregarded.

I used to allow my kids to play educational computer games, but it morphed into them begging to play and breaking the rules to get more time.
I think this is where parenting steps in and the limitations are set up. My crew have tried to push the limits, just as they do with other things. You hold steady and that's that. If my crew insist on being difficult or argumentative about the rules, they lose their time. End of story.

To us it's no more a rule to argue with than riding with a seatbelt or helmets on your head for bike riding. Just the way it is. If you choose to not follow the rule, you choose to loose the right to ride your bike/ride in the car/play games or any other rule that has to be followed.

My crew also know begging results in no game time at all, so they don't even try it now. They learned through experience the time is gone if they push it.

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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#67 of 125 Old 03-30-2007, 06:37 PM
 
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Houdini,
I can imagine it would be difficult to make your husband adhere to the rules if he didn't want to. I would imagine that he would be on the kids' side of the video game issue if it is already this much of an issue for ashtree.

I did/do have limitations. We never have a battle over bike helmets or seatbelts, but sometimes we do over bedtimes and we definitely did over computer games. It was a battle that I won when I chose to end computer games. Now that the limit is NONE, there is no battle. Ever.

In my house, begging gets an automatic NO. My kids understood that, BUT the begging over this issue was persistent enough that I finally said NO, never, don't ever ask again.

It works for me and doesn't harm them. In fact, I would say it is a benefit to them to have more time for reading and creative play.

~ Amy ~

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#68 of 125 Old 03-30-2007, 07:36 PM
 
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My Opinions on the given links, no you didn't ask, but you don't have to read if you don't want to either. I like to read studies and then verbalize my thoughts on them. Thanks for providing the studies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy in NH View Post
This link pertains to violent games. I agree that violent games should not be introduced to Kids before the rating system guidlines. If a game is marked 'M' then it should be for kids 17 and over only. If it is marked Ec that means everyone/children can use. The study links violent video games to aggressive behavior but that link is also made to watching anything violent in real life between people or television as well. There is a link that violence begets violence.

I agree 100% that kids should not be subjected to violent video games.

As for the dopamine increase. Dopamine is a chemical in your brain that is released when you are having fun or pleasure. Eating ice cream makes this chemical as well as ferris wheels and anything else you would find entertaining in your life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine
Quote:
Originally Posted by WIKI
Dopamine has many functions in the brain. Most importantly, dopamine is central to the reward system.[2]
It also says that some parents consider video games quality time, which some probably do, and to some degree it probably is depending on how you use it, however the way the article identifies it as something negative is probably indicitive of the articles bias.


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Originally Posted by Amy in NH View Post
Interesting statistics but I do not see how this proves or disproves drastic effects on children playing games. It takes a poll of who misbehaves and weather or not they play games?.... Maybe I read it wrong but I do not think the studies they listed had much to do with their originaly hypothesis. Good statistics though, but if playing video games gives my child a .21% chance more of misbehaving in class? I will take my chance.


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Originally Posted by Amy in NH View Post
Agree with this link 100% The more used to what we experiance the more we want out of it as humans. Being it baseball or television. But I don't think this is abnormal, just a progression of society. Granted may not be a healthy one but this is documented through history how humans want more tomorrow than what they get today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy in NH View Post
]

I agree if video games become a problem to unplug them, but to blame them for ADD or ADHD?.... ADD is a neurological disorder, as well as ADHD and if your child has it, video games had nothing to do with it. It is typically attributed to a brain trauma prenatal or post natal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_Deficit_Disorder and video games may make the condition worse, so I would agree that if your child is in the 2-5% of the population that has this disorder that playing video games may not be a wise choice for the family, but to say that the other 95% of the population will get add because of video games is somewhat of an injustice to the 5% who have no control over their disorder.


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Originally Posted by Amy in NH View Post
Of course you should not put your 4 year old, 5 year old, 10 year old in front of a violent video game.... I wouldn't put Jake in front of Saw or Hostel, I wouldn't put him front of Doom either... This has to do more with proper parenting. Parents should at LEAST adhere to the game rating guidelines and in most cases even be MORE strict....

It's not 'just' video games, kids should not repeatedly be exposed to violence on television, in real life, or video games because of the adverse affects it has on their psyche.... I don't think anyone here is advocating for putting a 4 year old in front of Grand Theft Auto and if they are they should be prosecuted because it is actually punishable as negligence (s/p)

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Originally Posted by Amy in NH View Post
There was a recent story in the news section where I believe it was Japan that treated video game addiction with shock therapy. I do not doubt that there are addictions, anything can be addicting if you are not moderated or not able to self moderate. I would say I am addicted to video games but not dependant on them. That is my own self admittance. I do not NEED video games to survive but it is something I use to unwind after a hectic day. I know that others can have a true addiction though. Addiction to me usually means a chemical dependance. I don't think that fits with this in my head... I'll look into it more.

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Originally Posted by Amy in NH View Post
Who puts a child in front of a video game with sex a violence? disgusting... Games rated for teens can not have sex or gore.... violence? yes definately but not gore or high amounts of blood

http://www.esrb.com

If your teen has one of these games it is because you bought an M rated game for them which is 17+ only I believe. So that boils down to parents responsibility for the stimuli. Set the rules and stand by them.... Also standards have become more strict over the past 5 years because of some specific games sliding through the ratings cracks. Which happens, no system is perfect. It has become more strict and the descriptions more detailed. Still boils down to parents knowing and understanding what they are purchasing for their kids/teens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy in NH View Post
same as below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy in NH View Post
Not much to say here except that my dad raced cars in his teens.... well before video games. The research about 'risky behaviors' is intriguing and worth looking into for myself (side note) interesting, I've never looked into how simulators affected real life situations for driving.

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Originally Posted by Amy in NH View Post
Violence, please do not put your children in front of violence...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy in NH View Post
That article even states that the industry and other several uk studdies suggest that moderat video game use may be a positive experiance while excessive use may cause problems.

No one here disagrees with that statement that I have seen from the pro game arena.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy in NH View Post
link didn't work for me... is there another link possibly?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy in NH View Post
Dopamine, a common chemical found in your brain when you achieve a goal or eat a food you like..... The dopamine studies are irrelevant. Anything you do that you enjoy creates dopamine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy in NH View Post
I'm sure if you spent time searching you could come up with a few more.
Good luck!


Games do not cause disorders, they can be addictive and dopamine is a natural chemical in the human body that should not be feared. My takes on the studies given, let me know if you think I am wrong, my feelings won't be hurt.



And please, for the love of children, do not place your children in front of games which portray sex or gross acts of violence..... that should be common sense.

Partner to :Jessica(??) papa to Jake(7) and : Kaiya (2)
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#69 of 125 Old 03-30-2007, 07:47 PM
 
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Quick note regarding dopamine -- yes, of course it's a chemcial released naturally in the brain. But too much, having it released irregularly, all the time, etc. is NOT a good thing. Just because something is found naturally in your body does NOT mean that it's okay in large doses or on an irregular/constant, whatever basis.

To the OP: I'm sorry you were attacked by pro-gamers. That was clearly NOT the kind of response you asked for.
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#70 of 125 Old 03-30-2007, 07:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RedWine View Post
Quick note regarding dopamine -- yes, of course it's a chemcial released naturally in the brain. But too much, having it released irregularly, all the time, etc. is NOT a good thing. Just because something is found naturally in your body does NOT mean that it's okay in large doses or on an irregular/constant, whatever basis.

To the OP: I'm sorry you were attacked by pro-gamers. That was clearly NOT the kind of response you asked for.
I don't see attacks. Sorry if any of my posts came across that way. But I agree with her husband that in moderation video games are a positive influence if used properly, just like books and excersize. When used in moderation it can be a healthy influence and there is a middle ground somewhere.

Pulling veto power on something like this will cause long term problems in most relationships if the other parent feels strongly about pro. If they didn't then this wouldn't be an issue.

Partner to :Jessica(??) papa to Jake(7) and : Kaiya (2)
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#71 of 125 Old 03-30-2007, 08:00 PM
 
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Actually, dopamine is an important brain chemical that causes drug addiction. Although it is released in small amounts when people eat, it is released in large amounts when doing drugs and playing video games. The brain then craves higher and higher doses of dopamine, causing addiction to dopamine releasing experiences like drugs and video games, with anxiety and depressive as well as other withdrawal symptoms when those experiences are not had. Video games affect the brain the same way as drug use. I would even go so far as to bet that early video game use predisposes kids to become drug addicts later in life. My son experiences drug-withdrawal-like symptoms when coming off of his video games.

A correlation has been found between ADHD and video game use. You can read all about it in plenty of studies. My son has ADD-like symptoms after playing video games.

Many, many, many parents let their young kids watch PG13 movies (and worse). Those same parents are probably just as likely to let their young kids play teenager rated video games. My ex is one of them. Those games are full of violence, sex, and lack of respect for authority. Exposure to violence, sex, and lack of respect for authority cause desensitization and internalization. Exposure to violence changes the brain and causes high blood pressure.

Kids who sit in front of video and computer games are not exercising. Video game use causes an unhealthy lifestyle including childhood obesity and diabetes. Kids with handheld video games are antisocial - they have their noses buried in those things instead of interacting with their families and friends (I've seen this time and again with my own eyes).

Those are facts.

There are just so many better uses for a person's time. Why would anyone choose to waste it in such an unproductive and potentially harmful manner? Why would a parent who works hard to homebirth without drugs, babywear, cosleep, breastfeed, etc., to be a good parent, subject their children to such poor parenting practices? Isn't that what this website is all about? Attachment parenting? I just don't see how video games fit in with such a holistic lifestyle. And I don't understand why you are here bashing someone who asked for help. No one asked for your opinion. If you don't have help to offer, then go away.

~ Amy ~

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#72 of 125 Old 03-30-2007, 08:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Yoshua View Post
I don't see attacks. Sorry if any of my posts came across that way. But I agree with her husband that in moderation video games are a positive influence if used properly, just like books and excersize. When used in moderation it can be a healthy influence and there is a middle ground somewhere.

Pulling veto power on something like this will cause long term problems in most relationships if the other parent feels strongly about pro. If they didn't then this wouldn't be an issue.
I opened this thread expecting to see some support for the OP. Instead I was surprised to find three pages of attacks of her position.

This is a black and white issue. There either are or aren't video games in the house. How is it better to have the OP's dh get the veto power to HAVE the video games. If it is something that she feels strongly about, then it will be an equal problem. The OP was looking for support for her position to bring to her dh to show him WHY she held her position. Maybe when he sees what she has to offer he will change his mind...

~ Amy ~

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#73 of 125 Old 03-30-2007, 08:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Amy in NH View Post
Actually, dopamine is an important brain chemical that causes drug addiction. Although it is released in small amounts when people eat, it is released in large amounts when doing drugs and playing video games. The brain then craves higher and higher doses of dopamine, causing addiction to dopamine releasing experiences like drugs and video games, with anxiety and depressive as well as other withdrawal symptoms when those experiences are not had. Video games affect the brain the same way as drug use. I would even go so far as to bet that early video game use predisposes kids to become drug addicts later in life. My son experiences drug-withdrawal-like symptoms when coming off of his video games.
So your son pukes, sweats and hallucinates after stopping video games? It sounds like he has other problems besides playing video games.
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#74 of 125 Old 03-30-2007, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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OMG!!! Thank you so much for the links. I can't wait to check them all out!

And I appreciate your willingness to jump into this midly heated discussion. I too have been suprised by the direction it has headed, but I have been able to gather resources I originally requested.

Ok-I would write more but my ds is waking up.
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#75 of 125 Old 03-30-2007, 10:44 PM
 
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I resisted reading this thread at first, not being someone the OP wanted to hear from but I got curious when the page list started getting long and I got sucked in. Sorry:

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Originally Posted by Amy in NH View Post
Kids who sit in front of video and computer games are not exercising. Video game use causes an unhealthy lifestyle including childhood obesity and diabetes. Kids with handheld video games are antisocial - they have their noses buried in those things instead of interacting with their families and friends (I've seen this time and again with my own eyes).
You obviously haven't seen my ds play video games. He hops and wiggles around and gets a full aerobic workout playing video games .

And I'm just curious if you would feel it was antisocial if you saw a kid not interacting because his/her nose was in a book?

I think about how reading is held in the highest of esteem, but how is it productive? It isn't building, creating, or getting the dishes done. I think reading is given an unjust place of honor in a person's activities, not that anybody mentioned reading but it is often used to fill the same niche as tv and computer use.

Back to the dopamine argument, artists should not be allowed to create art under that arguement. I'm confident the dopamine effect from creating rivals that of playing video games .

Mom to unschooling 4everboy since 8/01
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#76 of 125 Old 03-30-2007, 11:54 PM
 
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No Hidden Fees: I was not commenting on one child in particular, I was commenting on how children develop in general. Although we are all unique those of us with normal brain development pretty much do it all the same. It is no more a generalization than saying that babies walk before they talk.

The study with the movie, I believe (as I read it a few years ago) was documented in “The Plug-in Drug” by Marie Winn. I really can’t remember the details but is it relevant when most people are showing movies that are way beyond the appropriate age-range to small children? It also doesn’t really matter because unlike a story in a simply illustrated book, movies move at a frenetic speed inappropriate for small children, with frames changing at a pace that they cannot possibly keep up with.

When I said “growth and development cannot occur”, I meant in those moments when the brain is in stress. This is well-documented and also often discussed in reference to the CIO method and how it inhibits brain growth in infants.

It sounds like your dd’s response to that story is an attempt to allay her fears and/or to relate it to real life. If in fact your dd is not able to fully get into a story like that and feels the need to intellectualize it for some reason, perhaps it is not a good story or maybe she is accustomed to being pulled into reality and not being allowed to remain in a fantasy world?

As I said, children do often have precocious behavior. Is this really initiated by the child or has the child been encouraged to do so from a very early age? If in fact it is initiated by the child it does not need to be discouraged, I never said that, but it also does not need to be encouraged.

Dogma? It is a known fact that the brain develops through the senses in these early years.

I never said they should do nothing else. I implied that there are so many activities that are obviously healthy and age-appropriate and TV/games/computers are not.

Children of course have intellectual development before 7. However, the process of the brain’s growth goes from the instinctual (reptilian) and continues on through to the neocortex (which is responsible for intellectual activity). If your child has not fully developed other areas of the brain and you are intent on encouraging development of the neocortex he/she will not be able to fully develop other parts such as the limbic brain (responsible for emotions and feeling). This is why many highly intelligent people that you meet often are somewhat lacking in this department (I’ve met quite a few of those).

Using TV to wind down may seem appropriate as it puts them in a trance-like state.

Do you really think it is important for a 4 yr old to see jungle animals in the wild on a TV screen? How can this serve them? Going to a safari maybe. But if not, then why not focus on her learning things that matter to her like, cooking, building forts, playing by herself. This is what will feed her imagination.

The reason why I say that anything you want your child to learn can be done better in real life is because interaction with a human being is dynamic, engaging, responsive, etc. TV gives none of that! I’m not sure what subjects are so important for you to have a 4 year old learn. Free-play in a world of fantasy is what a 4 yr old should be engaged in. If your dd is asking to be engaged intellectually (again, I feel this is most often initiated by the parents) then read her a fairy tale. If you’re looking to build her intelligence this is important. Einstein said, “If you want your child to be smart, tell him fairy tales, if you want him to be a genius, read him more fairy tales.” (may not be quoted verbatim, it’s just in my head)

I would like to see studies showing the long-term benefits of a 3 or 4 or even 5 yr old playing chess. And when I say benefits I’m not just talking intelligence here. Do you want your child to be highly intelligent but unable to have compassion or self-confidence or be capable of having a light-hearted conversation? Do you want him to be a chess champion but have poor physical balance?
It will be difficult to find such a study because it is very difficult to quantify emotional intelligence or compassion. But talk to and read books written by people who have worked with children their whole lives and maybe you will gain a different perspective.

It is readily apparent to me when children who watch TV interact with my dd. I see and hear the differences clearly. Physically I see the differences. And of course in their play! And these are not heavy-watchers here.

Houdini: Just a few notes because I’m getting tired. I do not ever say that children should be discouraged from learning. What I say is that if they are showing an interest before the appropriate age (6 or 7) then to direct that energy elsewhere. I would encourage other activities. Or respond in with a story or something else that engages their imagination.

My dd is 5 and when she asks me how to write things I show her. I don’t make a big deal out of it. I don’t ever initiate it either. I would like her to stay in a dreamlike fantasy state for as long as she can. She has her whole school career to learn things like writing and reading. For now I enjoy watching her play.

Following a child’s cues are fine as long as you think it is appropriate. If my 5 yr old wants to go outside when it’s 10 degrees with no hat on I don’t let her. She may insist she’s warm but I know better.

How could you possibly be able to explain something to a 3 yr old in the same way you describe it to a 12 yr old. Something can be terribly damaging to a 3 yr old and completely fine for a 12 yr old. I think you need to read up more on child development.

Some other notes:

Brown University’s Mary G. Burke states, “The concerns about VEM (Visual Electronic Media) are
They over-stimulate the visual system, at the expense of other sensory systems
They deprive the child of necessary social interactions that foster self-regulation and contradict the child’s innate ability to recognize the significance of facial affect.
They arouse the child, but in a situation where he lacks the means for appropriate containment of his arousal.
They blunt his capacity for generating symbols and imaginary problem-solving
They interfere with the development of autonomy”

Joseph Chilton Pearce in Magical Child:
“Through interaction, intelligence grows in its ability to interact. We are designed to grow and be strengthened by every event, no matter how mundane or awesome.”

“The child needs to be a child. Forcing upon him adult thought produces a form of premature autonomy, even when that adult thought is cast in terms the child can grasp. Surely we can trick the growing system into walking before crawling, but that young system will reel about drunkenly and crash headlong-to the amazement and heartbreak of those parents so delighted that they had produced a child wonder”

Quoting Jean Piaget:
“For the child play cannot be opposed to reality, because in both cases belief is arbitrary and pretty much destitute of logical reasons. Play is a reality which the child is disposed to believe in when by himself, just as reality is a game at which he is willing to play with the adult and anyone else who believes in it….”

Back to Pearce:
“Just as most children learn to walk and get that out of the way before learning to talk, the biological plan strives to get physical learning accomplished and out of the way so that more abstract learning may take place.”

Some stuff from Neil Postman’s Amusing Ourselves to Death:

On the role of TV in our educational system:

“One is entirely justified in saying that the major educational enterprise now being undertaken in the United States is not happening in our classrooms but in the home, in front of the television set, and under the jurisdiction not of school administrators and teachers but of network executives and entertainers.”

He goes on:
“We may take as a guide here John Dewey’s observation that the content of a lesson is the least important thing about learning. As he wrote in “Experience and Education”: ‘Perhaps the greatest of all pedagogical fallacies it the notion that a person learns only what he is studying at the time…..’ In other words, the most important thing one learns is always something about how one learns. Television educates by teaching children to do what TV-viewing requires of them. And that is as precisely remote from what a classroom requires of them as reading a book is from watching a stage show.”

He goes on:
“…television’s principal contribution to educational philosophy is the idea that teaching and entertaining are inseparable. This entirely original conception is to be found nowhere in educational discourses, from Confucius to Plato to Cicero to Locke to John Dewey.”

Rahima Baldwin in “You are Your Child’s First Teacher” says:
“In Miseducation, Elkind points out that we must constantly remember that young children’s verbal skills far outpace their conceptual knowledge. Because children’s questions sound so mature and sophisticated, we are tempted to answer them at a level of abstraction far beyond their level of comprehension.”

And:
“Because the job of the intellect is to analyze and exercise critical judgment, very bright children tend to have difficulty relating emotionally with other children, a problem that can intensify as the child becomes older.”

Anyway, there is so much more…but I’m tired……..
Oh, this is some stuff I came across online in a cursory search…..

http://www.whitedot.org/issue/iss_st...DHD%20Toddlers
TV and ADHD

"In contrast to the way real life unfolds and is experienced by young children, the pace of TV is greatly sped up." says Christakis. His research appears in the April 2004 issue of Pediatrics. Quick scene shifts of video images become "normal," to a baby "when in fact, it’s decidedly not normal or natural." Christakis says. Exposing a baby’s developing brain to videos may over-stimulate it, causing permanent changes in developing neural pathways.

"Also in question is whether the insistent noise of television in the home may interfere with the development of ‘inner speech’ by which a child learns to think through problems and plans and restrain impulsive responding," wrote Jane Healy, psychologist and child brain expert in the magazine’s commentary”

http://www.theage.com.au/news/scienc...191629304.html
overall risks of TV

“The report which refers to children and adults, concludes that regardless of the type of programs people watched, even a moderate amount of viewing:
* Dramatically increases the risk of myopia in children;
* Slows children's metabolic rate;
* May trigger premature puberty;
* Leads, from childhood, to a significantly elevated risk of sleep problems in adulthood, causing hormone changes, which in turn directly increase appetite and body fat production and damage the immune system leading to a greater vulnerability to cancer;
* Is a direct cause of obesity and a bigger factor than eating junk food or not doing enough exercise;
* May damage brain-cell development and function in the neural circuits underlying attention and impulse control;
* Significantly increases the risk of abnormal glucose metabolism and new type 2 diabetes.
* Is the only adult pastime from the ages of 20 to 60 positively linked to developing Alzheimer's disease.
* Is a major independent cause of clinical depression (of which Britain has the highest rate in Europe).
Sigman, who is also a member of the Institute of Biology, said the health risks are "the greatest health scandal of our time ... (and) reducing television viewing should be a population health priority.
"Perhaps because television isn't a substance or a visibly risky activity, it has eluded the value judgments that have befallen other health issues," he said.
He said it was "particularly disturbing" that some academics urge caution and warn against the risk of over-reacting.
"What harm could possibly result from preventing very young children from watching television and from reducing the amount of television for those over three years of age?
"There is simply too much at stake not to be responsibly decisive now. In short, there's nothing to be lost by watching less television but a great deal to be lost by continuing to watch as much as we do."
Sigman collated and analysed diverse scientific studies from government agencies across the world, from the Chinese Centre for Disease Control and Prevention to the US Centre for Disease Control and Prevention, The Royal College of Psychiatrists, The American Medical Association, National Academy of Sciences and Harvard and Stanford medical schools.
These studies were combined with first-hand observational data by the author on the effects of television in remote cultures including Bhutan, Tonga, Burma, Laos, Bolivia, Mali, China, Iran, Japan and Vietnam.”

4EverMom:
of course your children are wiggling and hopping, they have adrenaline pumping through their veins in full dose and have no reasonable outlet. Our brains are still wired to be out in the plains. Adrenaline makes us want to run or fight and when kids are playing games or watching TV they have no way to truly dispel the energy pumping through them. And to me wiggling and hopping are things I would like to see children initiating of their own accord. This is what leads to greater physical dexterity.

Books have words in them, they inspire imagination. The work of the imagination is to create images or scenarios drawing upon a storehouse of information and experiences, not to REENACT scenes from images in a dire attempt to integrate them into the mind and to understand them in a meaningful way, as is necessary when exposed to TV/computers/video games.
This right here should be enough argument to not show these things to a child who's brain is still in the early stages of develoment.

But for those who feel that intellectual development at the age of 4 is of the highest importance, do you really want your child's brain in a state of stress or busy trying to digest imposing visual images when they could be creating a world of fantasy that will aid in their intellectual capacity??
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If your child recieves education from TV that is a problem. I don't care if its Animal Planet, or Nickelodeon, and I don't care how often they watch TV, or how long for that matter. The TV should never be a sustitute or addition to parenting and educating.
Wow.

You're throwing some huge blanket statements out there with this post, and I believe you're totally missing the forest for the trees here.

There are many parents, .. including homeschoolers and unschoolers who believe that tv, games, and the internet can be used as a wonderful tool. Just as YOU are using the internet and screen time as an educational tool, and entertainment.

I don't think anyone here is trying to change your mind about video games. What I have seen is people suggesting you try to find a way to compromise because its something that is equally important to your husband. Video games are not evil. There is no absolute right or wrong here. If you choose to be tv and game free and it works for your family, thats great!

I do have to wonder why though, that you seem to be judging other families here that do utilize tv and games. You may not see anything useful from them, but other people do. We're not ignorant, misinformed, or unenlightened about the subject. On the contrary I'd say most of us probably researched our decisions quite intensely. We just happen to come to a different conclusion than you did.

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]It sounds like your dd’s response to that story is an attempt to allay her fears and/or to relate it to real life. If in fact your dd is not able to fully get into a story like that and feels the need to intellectualize it for some reason, perhaps it is not a good story or maybe she is accustomed to being pulled into reality and not being allowed to remain in a fantasy world?
She was not frightened by the story, and this is not an isolated occurrence. Why, when presented with specific examples do you feel the need to explain children to their parents? I don't intend to relate more anecdotes, but I will assure you that I'm well acquainted with my child, and she has no difficulty in expressing herself.

Quote:
As I said, children do often have precocious behavior. Is this really initiated by the child or has the child been encouraged to do so from a very early age? If in fact it is initiated by the child it does not need to be discouraged, I never said that, but it also does not need to be encouraged.
Do you ever encourage your child to enjoy things they are interested in? I'm wondering precisely why I shouldn't. Because she's not interested in the things most other kids her age are? Because Jimibell doesn't approve? Should I convey to her that this is somehow wrong, or look the other way like when she picks her nose? I'd like to give her the impression that I encourage her to explore her interests rather than pretend they don't exist. I will agree that children should not be coerced into activities they have no real interest in, but there's a whole lot of room between interest and coercion.

Quote:
Dogma? It is a known fact that the brain develops through the senses in these early years.
No; it's dogma to say over and over that children need this, and this and this because they are only capable of understanding this and that and this. You said in this post that you are talking about most, not all, children, but repeating these mantras over and over again without qualification doesn't promote acceptance or acknowledgment of those children who don't follow (for example) the generic Waldorf template.

Quote:
Children of course have intellectual development before 7. However, the process of the brain’s growth goes from the instinctual (reptilian) and continues on through to the neocortex (which is responsible for intellectual activity). If your child has not fully developed other areas of the brain and you are intent on encouraging development of the neocortex he/she will not be able to fully develop other parts such as the limbic brain (responsible for emotions and feeling). This is why many highly intelligent people that you meet often are somewhat lacking in this department (I’ve met quite a few of those).
I've read the same stuff you have. However, this is not true of all children. And thank you for elucidating why so many highly intelligent people are, ahem, social misfits. I guess I can throw all those books I have on child development now. It had never occurred to me that such complex mysteries could be solved so easily. But it must be tiring judging everyone you meet who doesn't conform to your romantic ideal of natural and normal... so maybe I'll take a pass.

Quote:
Do you really think it is important for a 4 yr old to see jungle animals in the wild on a TV screen? How can this serve them? Going to a safari maybe. But if not, then why not focus on her learning things that matter to her like, cooking, building forts, playing by herself. This is what will feed her imagination.
You'd obviously be very disappointed to find out what matters to DD1.

Quote:
The reason why I say that anything you want your child to learn can be done better in real life is because interaction with a human being is dynamic, engaging, responsive, etc. TV gives none of that! I’m not sure what subjects are so important for you to have a 4 year old learn. Free-play in a world of fantasy is what a 4 yr old should be engaged in. If your dd is asking to be engaged intellectually (again, I feel this is most often initiated by the parents) then read her a fairy tale. If you’re looking to build her intelligence this is important. Einstein said, “If you want your child to be smart, tell him fairy tales, if you want him to be a genius, read him more fairy tales.” (may not be quoted verbatim, it’s just in my head)
I'm going to pretend you're not saying what it appears you're saying. It's like you have a picture in your mind of us poor electronic media users living like Philistines (which I recently learned is a horrible slur against Philistines, as they actually produced some beautiful arts and crafts). You'd actually be hard pressed to find a fairy tale she hasn't read. We used to cap her reading at 3 hours a day because she was insatiable. Even now she probably reads for 4 or 5 hours for every hour she gets of screen time.

Quote:
I would like to see studies showing the long-term benefits of a 3 or 4 or even 5 yr old playing chess. And when I say benefits I’m not just talking intelligence here. Do you want your child to be highly intelligent but unable to have compassion or self-confidence or be capable of having a light-hearted conversation? Do you want him to be a chess champion but have poor physical balance?
Please read what you're writing and tell me why you think it's not condescending. Where did I say we were sending her to chess classes and signing her up for leagues and formal competitions? Who said she's not highly personable? Or do children who play chess always have interpersonal skill deficits? Nope.. I guess you've got me there. I've got her chained to the computer, devoid of human contact in the hope of producing a dysfunctional, emotionally scarred chess whiz. Yup, that's me.

Quote:
It will be difficult to find such a study because it is very difficult to quantify emotional intelligence or compassion. But talk to and read books written by people who have worked with children their whole lives and maybe you will gain a different perspective.
And you assume I haven't because? Oh, I don't agree with you, so I must be ignorant?

Quote:
Houdini: Just a few notes because I’m getting tired. I do not ever say that children should be discouraged from learning. What I say is that if they are showing an interest before the appropriate age (6 or 7) then to direct that energy elsewhere. I would encourage other activities. Or respond in with a story or something else that engages their imagination.
So children's interests should be followed unless they are the wrong ones?

Quote:
But for those who feel that intellectual development at the age of 4 is of the highest importance, do you really want your child's brain in a state of stress or busy trying to digest imposing visual images when they could be creating a world of fantasy that will aid in their intellectual capacity??
And which poster said this?

Excuse me, I've got to get back to my socially backward, stressed out daughter. She had 1/2 hour of computer time today... I'd better go read her a fairy tale and encourage her to build a fort so she can be relaxed enough to get to sleep.
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#79 of 125 Old 03-31-2007, 09:09 AM
 
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Actually, dopamine is an important brain chemical that causes drug addiction. Although it is released in small amounts when people eat, it is released in large amounts when doing drugs and playing video games. The brain then craves higher and higher doses of dopamine, causing addiction to dopamine releasing experiences like drugs and video games, with anxiety and depressive as well as other withdrawal symptoms when those experiences are not had. Video games affect the brain the same way as drug use. I would even go so far as to bet that early video game use predisposes kids to become drug addicts later in life. My son experiences drug-withdrawal-like symptoms when coming off of his video games.
Bold mine. I would be interested to see links that can show this predisposition.

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Originally Posted by AMy in NH
A correlation has been found between ADHD and video game use. You can read all about it in plenty of studies. My son has ADD-like symptoms after playing video games.
I would guess maybe this is based on the individuals perceptions of ADD or on individual children. I have never seen what I would consider 'ADD-like symptoms' from any of my children or friend's children when they are finished playing video games. What symptoms to you consider 'ADD-like' from you child?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy in NH
Many, many, many parents let their young kids watch PG13 movies (and worse). Those same parents are probably just as likely to let their young kids play teenager rated video games. My ex is one of them. Those games are full of violence, sex, and lack of respect for authority. Exposure to violence, sex, and lack of respect for authority cause desensitization and internalization. Exposure to violence changes the brain and causes high blood pressure.
There are many parents who allow their children to watch all kinds of things that I wouldn't consider for my crew. I have seen more than one person on MDC who does not censor or limit their children on any media form. It is their choice as a parent. If you disagree, you have the choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy in NH
Kids who sit in front of video and computer games are not exercising. Video game use causes an unhealthy lifestyle including childhood obesity and diabetes. Kids with handheld video games are antisocial - they have their noses buried in those things instead of interacting with their families and friends (I've seen this time and again with my own eyes).
Actually, if the family own the new wii, the child is getting up and moving quite a bit. We don't own this system, but my children are definately active at plenty of other points during the day.

Does your child exercise while reading a book or do they sit down while doing so? Same thing. My children are far from unhealthy, though I am sure if we didn't have restrictions it could get to that point.

"Kids with handheld video games are antisocial." My kids are no more antisocial while playing a handheld than while reading their books. They are immersed in something and I would wage a guess that it is fairly common to focus on whatever a person is engaged in. I don't talk to people while I am reading and a lot of times I don't even hear someone calling the first time if it is a good read.

If a family chooses to allow their child to play unlimited amounts of time, then it could become an issue just like any one else. My children are not allowed to play when we are engaging in family time or when friends are over. Again, it is about restricting and moderating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy in NH
Those are facts.
Those are not the facts. Those are your opinions and the opinions of the authors of studies. There are no studies out there (that I am aware of) that prove definatively any negative things when games/tv are used in moderation and within age-appropriate guidelines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy in NH
There are just so many better uses for a person's time. Why would anyone choose to waste it in such an unproductive and potentially harmful manner? Why would a parent who works hard to homebirth without drugs, babywear, cosleep, breastfeed, etc., to be a good parent, subject their children to such poor parenting practices? Isn't that what this website is all about? Attachment parenting? I just don't see how video games fit in with such a holistic lifestyle. And I don't understand why you are here bashing someone who asked for help. No one asked for your opinion. If you don't have help to offer, then go away.
There are many things that I do through the course of the day that have potential for harm. I still do them. I am sure most here drive, plug in items to the wall, go on walks, etc. Just about everything a person does can potentially harm them. The key is to learn the safety rules and then put them to use.

As far as attachment parenting goes. I play with my children quite often. I am more of a gamer than my husband is. I can engage in time with them while playing games just the same as reading to them or them reading to me. It is no different. I am still bonding with them and sharing something they enjoy with them.

Again, noone is 'bashing' anyone. We are offering our opinions on a forum. That is what a forum is all about. I am just as able to offer my opinion as the next person.

If you choose to spout of your opinions as facts, then I am quite able to spout off my opinions to counter your version of the 'facts.'

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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#80 of 125 Old 03-31-2007, 09:15 AM
 
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I opened this thread expecting to see some support for the OP. Instead I was surprised to find three pages of attacks of her position.

This is a black and white issue. There either are or aren't video games in the house. How is it better to have the OP's dh get the veto power to HAVE the video games. If it is something that she feels strongly about, then it will be an equal problem. The OP was looking for support for her position to bring to her dh to show him WHY she held her position. Maybe when he sees what she has to offer he will change his mind...
This where we differ. It is not a matter of all or nothing in our house. We have them, they are restricted to usage. How is it better to not take into account your partner's opinion on something in regards to both their children. I can't imagine completely disregarding my partner's views on a topic just b/c I disagree.

It is quite possible he will change his views....just as it is possible he won't. It is at that point a compromise should be reached between the parents.

My children are just as much my husband's as mine.....I don't understand why his opinions should count as less.

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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#81 of 125 Old 03-31-2007, 10:20 AM
 
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There are just so many better uses for a person's time. Why would anyone choose to waste it in such an unproductive and potentially harmful manner? Why would a parent who works hard to homebirth without drugs, babywear, cosleep, breastfeed, etc., to be a good parent, subject their children to such poor parenting practices? Isn't that what this website is all about? Attachment parenting? I just don't see how video games fit in with such a holistic lifestyle. And I don't understand why you are here bashing someone who asked for help. No one asked for your opinion. If you don't have help to offer, then go away.
:
Was this really necessary? I haven't been participating in the discussion, but I'm pretty sure no one asked to have their "parenting practices" evaluated either. It's a given that people are going to share views on a discussion board. I'm having trouble choosing my words at the moment, I don't want to come off as rude or angry (which I'm not), I just feel your post was upsetting and out of line.
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#82 of 125 Old 03-31-2007, 12:10 PM
 
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Do you ever encourage your child to enjoy things they are interested in? I'm wondering precisely why I shouldn't. Because she's not interested in the things most other kids her age are?............. I will agree that children should not be coerced into activities they have no real interest in, but there's a whole lot of room between interest and coercion.

No; it's dogma to say over and over that children need this, and this and this because they are only capable of understanding this and that and this. You said in this post that you are talking about most, not all, children, but repeating these mantras over and over again without qualification doesn't promote acceptance or acknowledgment of those children who don't follow (for example) the generic Waldorf template.
Yeah, I'm supposed to shut down my ds because someone online thinks chess isn't appropriate for him?

People need to realize that children are very different from each other. How strange it would be after that natural childbirth, extended breastfeeding, etc to not respect my ds' individuality and interests.

Mom to unschooling 4everboy since 8/01
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#83 of 125 Old 03-31-2007, 12:38 PM
 
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what do you think about games that are educational? in my house there is no gaming systems i have looked in to them found that they dont have a educational value to them but i did buy my dd a leapster lmax which is educational can be played hand held or connected to the tv like a video game everyone in my house plays it i think it is funny when she comes to me and says play with me it is fun same goes with pc and internet games i only let the ones that have learning in them she is having fun and learning at the same time
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#84 of 125 Old 03-31-2007, 01:26 PM
 
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I would like to see studies showing the long-term benefits of a 3 or 4 or even 5 yr old playing chess. And when I say benefits I’m not just talking intelligence here. Do you want your child to be highly intelligent but unable to have compassion or self-confidence or be capable of having a light-hearted conversation? Do you want him to be a chess champion but have poor physical balance?
I find it interesting how you correlate the interest in chess with trying to improve my child's intelligence. I can assure you it has nothing to with benefitting his intelligence. They play b/c they like to play.

I also find it interesting how you correlate a child being highly intelligent with an inability to have compassion/self-confidence/light-hearted conversation. Why do you feel both aren't possible? It isn't an all or nothing thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
It will be difficult to find such a study because it is very difficult to quantify emotional intelligence or compassion. But talk to and read books written by people who have worked with children their whole lives and maybe you will gain a different perspective.
Interestingly enough, my MIL has worked with children her whole life. She used to be a director for Head Start as well as a teacher of pre-schoolers. I agree it is difficult to quantify emotional intelligence or compassion, yet you seem to be doing just that by indicating an intelligent child lacks compassion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
It is readily apparent to me when children who watch TV interact with my dd. I see and hear the differences clearly. Physically I see the differences. And of course in their play! And these are not heavy-watchers here.
I am truly interested to hear what indicators you see that help you identify a child who watches tv as opposed to a non-tv watcher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
Houdini: Just a few notes because I’m getting tired. I do not ever say that children should be discouraged from learning. What I say is that if they are showing an interest before the appropriate age (6 or 7) then to direct that energy elsewhere. I would encourage other activities. Or respond in with a story or something else that engages their imagination.
By re-directing them, you are discouraging them. By assuming an appropriate age for an activity and not allowing them to engage in said activity until they meet the arbitrary age, you are discouraging learning. Honestly, it ranks right up there with my daughter's preschool teacher who wouldn't allow her to do the take-home books b/c she wasn't going to K the next year. It's a discouragement to the child. There is no set age for learning a specific task, it happens when they are ready. My children have all learned various things at different ages. I watch their cues and go from there. My five year is very interested in numbers, always has been. He loves to 'do Math' with his nine year old brother who shares his love of numbers. Why would I discourage my child when he wants to learn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
My dd is 5 and when she asks me how to write things I show her. I don’t make a big deal out of it. I don’t ever initiate it either. I would like her to stay in a dreamlike fantasy state for as long as she can. She has her whole school career to learn things like writing and reading. For now I enjoy watching her play.
Do you feel that those who teach their child an 'academic' activity are making a big deal out of it? I can assure you I do not ever make my five year old 'do Math' or any other 'academic' activity. If he tells me let's read Dick and Jane and he chooses to be the one reading, we go with it until he wants me to be the reader.

It really isn't all an all or nothing thing. My crew are very well-rounded and they have exposure to many different things. Why would I limit their exposure to anything based on an arbitrary age recommendation? It really makes no sense to me at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
Following a child’s cues are fine as long as you think it is appropriate. If my 5 yr old wants to go outside when it’s 10 degrees with no hat on I don’t let her. She may insist she’s warm but I know better.
Your child may not have the same internal temperature as you. My daughter is always colder than the rest of the family. We don't dress according to her temperature. We dress according to how we each feel. One may have on a winter hat and coat in 40 degrees and one may have a jacket. Personally, I never wear a winter coat b/c they are too bulky.

Your child can learn to make their own decisions on being cold or not. Let her go out in 10 degree weather....see what happens. She will probably figure out very quickly that it is cold and decide on the hat. You can't possibly know how warm or cold she is beyond a shadow of a doubt b/c you aren't her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
How could you possibly be able to explain something to a 3 yr old in the same way you describe it to a 12 yr old. Something can be terribly damaging to a 3 yr old and completely fine for a 12 yr old. I think you need to read up more on child development.
I assure you I need no more reading up on child development. Where did anyone say they explain something the same way to a three year old and a twelve year old? I don't recall seeing that anywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
Some other notes:

Brown University’s Mary G. Burke states, “The concerns about VEM (Visual Electronic Media) are
They over-stimulate the visual system, at the expense of other sensory systems
They deprive the child of necessary social interactions that foster self-regulation and contradict the child’s innate ability to recognize the significance of facial affect.
They arouse the child, but in a situation where he lacks the means for appropriate containment of his arousal.
They blunt his capacity for generating symbols and imaginary problem-solving
They interfere with the development of autonomy”
I am wondering if this was done using age appropriate VEM. Link please so I can read the full text.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
Joseph Chilton Pearce in Magical Child:
“Through interaction, intelligence grows in its ability to interact. We are designed to grow and be strengthened by every event, no matter how mundane or awesome.”

“The child needs to be a child. Forcing upon him adult thought produces a form of premature autonomy, even when that adult thought is cast in terms the child can grasp. Surely we can trick the growing system into walking before crawling, but that young system will reel about drunkenly and crash headlong-to the amazement and heartbreak of those parents so delighted that they had produced a child wonder”
Bold mine. The bolded area is the key to this passage. I agree a child shouldn't be forced, but it is entirely possible for children to learn outside of the arbitrary age of six without it being forced on them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
Quoting Jean Piaget:
“For the child play cannot be opposed to reality, because in both cases belief is arbitrary and pretty much destitute of logical reasons. Play is a reality which the child is disposed to believe in when by himself, just as reality is a game at which he is willing to play with the adult and anyone else who believes in it….”
Nice quote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
Back to Pearce:
“Just as most children learn to walk and get that out of the way before learning to talk, the biological plan strives to get physical learning accomplished and out of the way so that more abstract learning may take place.”
Bold mine. The bolded text is the key.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
Some stuff from Neil Postman’s Amusing Ourselves to Death:

On the role of TV in our educational system:

“One is entirely justified in saying that the major educational enterprise now being undertaken in the United States is not happening in our classrooms but in the home, in front of the television set, and under the jurisdiction not of school administrators and teachers but of network executives and entertainers.”

He goes on:
“We may take as a guide here John Dewey’s observation that the content of a lesson is the least important thing about learning. As he wrote in “Experience and Education”: ‘Perhaps the greatest of all pedagogical fallacies it the notion that a person learns only what he is studying at the time…..’ In other words, the most important thing one learns is always something about how one learns. Television educates by teaching children to do what TV-viewing requires of them. And that is as precisely remote from what a classroom requires of them as reading a book is from watching a stage show.”

He goes on:
“…television’s principal contribution to educational philosophy is the idea that teaching and entertaining are inseparable. This entirely original conception is to be found nowhere in educational discourses, from Confucius to Plato to Cicero to Locke to John Dewey.”
Again, wondering why both can't be utilized. My children learn plenty from both educational settings as well as television. I guess it is all about parental involvement. If you plant a kid in front of a tv and do nothing else with them, then that is an issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
Rahima Baldwin in “You are Your Child’s First Teacher” says:
“In Miseducation, Elkind points out that we must constantly remember that young children’s verbal skills far outpace their conceptual knowledge. Because children’s questions sound so mature and sophisticated, we are tempted to answer them at a level of abstraction far beyond their level of comprehension.”
It is entirely possible to answer pretty much any question with an age-appropriate response. It is also possible for children to learn at different paces whether it is my five year old knowing basic addition or my daughter not learning the same until almost seven. Different children have different abilities and should be treated as individuals, not lumped into one category of learning xyz can't happen until a set age.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
And:
“Because the job of the intellect is to analyze and exercise critical judgment, very bright children tend to have difficulty relating emotionally with other children, a problem that can intensify as the child becomes older.”
Again, I suppose it is a difference in children. My children aren't geniuses and are quite capable of things you listed that are not 'appropriate' for the ages they accomplished them (ex chess, reading). It isn't just the 'very bright children' who can learn these things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
Anyway, there is so much more…but I’m tired……..
Oh, this is some stuff I came across online in a cursory search…..

http://www.whitedot.org/issue/iss_st...DHD%20Toddlers
TV and ADHD

"In contrast to the way real life unfolds and is experienced by young children, the pace of TV is greatly sped up." says Christakis. His research appears in the April 2004 issue of Pediatrics. Quick scene shifts of video images become "normal," to a baby "when in fact, it’s decidedly not normal or natural." Christakis says. Exposing a baby’s developing brain to videos may over-stimulate it, causing permanent changes in developing neural pathways.

"Also in question is whether the insistent noise of television in the home may interfere with the development of ‘inner speech’ by which a child learns to think through problems and plans and restrain impulsive responding," wrote Jane Healy, psychologist and child brain expert in the magazine’s commentary”
I don't recall anyone mentioning exposing an infant to tv.

Again, I would say this goes to the moderation part of parenting with tv. Though I have to say, the tv was on non-stop in my house growing up. Literally. It really didn't interfere with my ability to think through problems and such, but again each person is different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
http://www.theage.com.au/news/scienc...191629304.html
overall risks of TV

“The report which refers to children and adults, concludes that regardless of the type of programs people watched, even a moderate amount of viewing:
* Dramatically increases the risk of myopia in children;
* Slows children's metabolic rate;
* May trigger premature puberty;
* Leads, from childhood, to a significantly elevated risk of sleep problems in adulthood, causing hormone changes, which in turn directly increase appetite and body fat production and damage the immune system leading to a greater vulnerability to cancer;
* Is a direct cause of obesity and a bigger factor than eating junk food or not doing enough exercise;
* May damage brain-cell development and function in the neural circuits underlying attention and impulse control;
* Significantly increases the risk of abnormal glucose metabolism and new type 2 diabetes.
* Is the only adult pastime from the ages of 20 to 60 positively linked to developing Alzheimer's disease.
* Is a major independent cause of clinical depression (of which Britain has the highest rate in Europe).
Sigman, who is also a member of the Institute of Biology, said the health risks are "the greatest health scandal of our time ... (and) reducing television viewing should be a population health priority.
"Perhaps because television isn't a substance or a visibly risky activity, it has eluded the value judgments that have befallen other health issues," he said.
He said it was "particularly disturbing" that some academics urge caution and warn against the risk of over-reacting.
"What harm could possibly result from preventing very young children from watching television and from reducing the amount of television for those over three years of age?
"There is simply too much at stake not to be responsibly decisive now. In short, there's nothing to be lost by watching less television but a great deal to be lost by continuing to watch as much as we do."
Sigman collated and analysed diverse scientific studies from government agencies across the world, from the Chinese Centre for Disease Control and Prevention to the US Centre for Disease Control and Prevention, The Royal College of Psychiatrists, The American Medical Association, National Academy of Sciences and Harvard and Stanford medical schools.
These studies were combined with first-hand observational data by the author on the effects of television in remote cultures including Bhutan, Tonga, Burma, Laos, Bolivia, Mali, China, Iran, Japan and Vietnam.”
Sorry, when the title of the article is The Idiot Box, it shows a huge bias. I am not sure I see the point of even reading it when the author is obviously against television. Correct me if I am wrong and I will read the article.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
But for those who feel that intellectual development at the age of 4 is of the highest importance, do you really want your child's brain in a state of stress or busy trying to digest imposing visual images when they could be creating a world of fantasy that will aid in their intellectual capacity??
Why do you assume that any of us are placing intellectual development at teh age of 4 at the highest importance? I subscribe to child-led learning. My kids ask a question or express an interest in something, I refuse to not allow it b/c they don't meet the age requirements arbitrarily set by someone else. By ignoring their requests to learn until they are a magical age according to some person who doesn't even know your child, you are discouraging their natural curiosity on the topic.

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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#85 of 125 Old 03-31-2007, 02:19 PM
 
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not even going to touch on the original topic because OPs decision is obviously set in stone and she has no interest in compromising with her dh

just wanted to to Houdini and NoHiddenFees. fabulous fabulous posting. really truly, absolutly great. i wish more people could disagree as eloquently as you
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#86 of 125 Old 03-31-2007, 03:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kwren23 View Post
not even going to touch on the original topic because OPs decision is obviously set in stone and she has no interest in compromising with her dh

just wanted to to Houdini and NoHiddenFees. fabulous fabulous posting. really truly, absolutly great. i wish more people could disagree as eloquently as you

:

I was worried that this thread - with all it's absolutes (tv/video games always cause harm, video games are never good.....etc.) and the whole insistence from some posters that it is a black & white issue (is anything?) would cause this thread to deterioriate rapidly. You two have done a great job!!
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#87 of 125 Old 03-31-2007, 03:44 PM
 
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someone should go tell my 5 year old (who is out in the back yard right now pretending to be an entire zoo of animals) that her 15 minutes of game time with her dad is stifling her imagination

Why does it have to be so black and white? There is almost always gray in these types of decisions.

To the OP - I hope you can work out something with your DH that fits both your needs As a father its important for him to feel like he has a say in your child's life as well... so try to be compassionate of that and work something out
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#88 of 125 Old 03-31-2007, 04:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Cinder View Post
Yep, my dd was 4years2months when she started begging to play chess...she's better at it now than I am(she's now 4years7months), which isn't saying much at all.
This is interesting. My son (almost 6 YO) also startet to find chess interesting around that age. He saw chessgames in toystores etc. and just seemed to like them. Now he has played for 1,5 years, and still loves it. We have a chess boardgame at home, but often goes down to the library to play there.

So, some people actually thinks that chess is "an heavy intellectual stimuli" that I have to deny him until he is older, or did I misread that big time?

He also LOVES to learn about pregnancy and birth, and has a knowledge about the subject that is way, way, way advanced for his age. And he loves math, counting and numbers. But because he is so young, I should deny him the possibility to learn this? I should force him to do other things, because that is what he SHOULD be doing and liking at his age? This just doesn`t sound right to me. I want him to be free to explore the things he is interested in. I have never forced him to learn anything, he is always the one that comes to me with the subjects HE wants to learn more about.

NoHiddenFees and Houdini: Thank you for such fantastic posts!

*back to read the rest of the tread*

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#89 of 125 Old 03-31-2007, 06:53 PM
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Yeah, we find visual media helpful around here too, including the computer and TV. He's too young to play video games but I don't oppose some gaming later -- not shooting games, but I have seen great fun problem-solving and other games that are super fun and are a great adjunct to parent teaching.

I like how TV/film help contextualize some parts of the natural world for my son too. There are no real giraffes in the backyard, for instance. He can read about them in a book, but seeing them on the screen is more informative. He could get a sense of size, watch them move, etc.

I'm interested to hear Jimibell why a state of "dreamlike fantasy" is most desirable to you for your child. Honestly interested. I mean I like it too, and I've done the reading, but -- well, for my kid, at least right now, that's not what he likes to focus on. He likes to know how the world "works," what motivates the people in his life, how to make connections with people, hand skills. He does his share of fantasy and I'm sure will do more as he grows older, but I'm totally at a loss as to why any one state for children would be desirable over others without regard to the child's personality.

Of course you and I are each going to do what we want parenting our kids. I'm cool with what I'm doing, and I bet your little has a lovely time in fantasyland. Just curious how many healthy kids you have met who aren't as into a dreamlike state at a young age -- or are in it but also have other skills at the same time.
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#90 of 125 Old 03-31-2007, 08:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ashtree View Post
I think that TV and video games do affect the health and welfare of a child-and adults as well.
i hate blanket statements. my dh suffered a brain injury 4 years ago and video games have helped his recovery IMMENSELY, so much that others from our support group have also begun playing these games and are seeing the benefits.
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