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My four year old. . .

7K views 151 replies 56 participants last post by  koofie 
#1 ·
is wearing me down. We've had three weeks of constant battles. I just don't know what to do. I feel terrible for him and for me. Typical example: Today daddy was taking a nap. Ds was being a dinosaur right out side the bedroom. I said, daddy's napping, we need to be quiet. He continued roaring. I said, Hey lets go outside and be dinosaurs. He hid under the table and continued roaring. Honey, if you don't stop you will get in trouble. Daddy is trying to sleep and you need to make noise away from the door. He continues. . . .I picked him up and took him to his room and which point he is kicking and scratching me. Later we make up, talk about it, he promises to listen. . . an hour later we are locked into a similar situation. All day long. Why? Why? Why? I don't like it. He doesn't like it.

I guess this could be a gentle discipline issue, but I'm wondering more about the brain of a 4 year old. What is he getting out of this?
 
#29 ·
We seemed to have made some progress this weekend, as we had such a lovely time together as a family for the entire weekend. There was no whining, no crying, no refusing to do anything, no back talk, no selective hearing, etc. It was the nicest weekend we've had for quite some time.

Unfortunately, it must have been a fluke, as Monday morning rolled around, and here we are right back in 4 year old hell. At this very moment DD is lying on the bathroom floor having a fit because I won't keep her company while she poops
:. Again, as I said last week, I know it seems like an easy request to comply with, but DD is of the personality that once I start it I'll have to keep her company everytime she uses the bathroom (and I'm not exaggerating here, you wouldn't believe the number of ridiculous rituals our family goes through because we complied to the silly requests one too many times).

Dealing with this is totally draining me. I start my day fresh, awake and feeling good. By the time afternoon rolls around I'm wiped out. My head is in a fog, my nerves are shot, and my attitude stinks. By the time DH gets home I feel like I'm just hanging on by a thread.

DH is sending me on a yoga/meditation retreat this weekend for my birthday and I CAN.NOT.WAIT. I've never ever been more excited to go away from my family and be alone. Imagine, almost 3 full days of peace and quite, and NO WHINING!!!!
 
#31 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scout View Post
We never experienced what some people call the Terrible Twos with our son. We did, however, have what my husband and I call the F*n Fours.

I'm sorry you're having a rough time. It will get better, I promise!

~Scout
Oh man!! Love that name!
Our ds was/is exactly the same. No two's troubles, but oh. my. g*d, the fours...

The only thing that keeps us sane sometimes is watching old movies or looking at baby pics of him. It reminds us of who he is, and that he's not this little alien
.
(He is currently having a great day...it comes and goes like the clouds)
 
#32 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Flor View Post
Thank you! Thank you! The thing with the pants is totally something ds would do. Last night, in the middle of dinner, he wanted someone to brush his teeth. I was eating, so I said, you can wait for me to be done eating, or you can go brush your teeth right now by yourself. Aw, the melt down. . . which is why he went to bed at 6;30. This morning he was a pleasant little guy. I don hope this phase is teaching him something!
I'm going to wreck the party here, but why would he have to go to bed at 6:30? Because of a toothbrushing battle?

OMG if you even knew how many people WISH their kid would ask someone to brush their teeth! Honetsly I would have brushed the kids teeth and then finished eating. If you put this in the GD forum btw I'm sure many would say the same thing. Stop making things an issue. If my kid asks me to brush his teeth I'm happy that he took the responsibility to realize they needed brushing and I am happy to do it whenever

I don't think it's fair to ALWAYS make kids do things when WE think they should. Maybe letting him have some of his own will would make him stop fighting for it
 
#33 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by 425lisamarie View Post
I'm going to wreck the party here, but why would he have to go to bed at 6:30? Because of a toothbrushing battle?

OMG if you even knew how many people WISH their kid would ask someone to brush their teeth! Honetsly I would have brushed the kids teeth and then finished eating. If you put this in the GD forum btw I'm sure many would say the same thing. Stop making things an issue. If my kid asks me to brush his teeth I'm happy that he took the responsibility to realize they needed brushing and I am happy to do it whenever

I don't think it's fair to ALWAYS make kids do things when WE think they should. Maybe letting him have some of his own will would make him stop fighting for it
Hmm. Really? Let me set the scene again. We are all at the table eating dinner. Several minutes into it, ds decides he needs me to brush his teeth. In the middle of dinner. I told him that he could brush his own teeth, or, he could wait until I'm done and then I'd brush his teeth. He can brush his teeth whenever he wants to, but I don't need to stop everything to do it. He proceeds to melt down into screaming, clawing, etc. He usually goes to bed at 7pm, but it was the last straw of a day with 10 other instances like that, so he only made it 6:30. We were all drained.

Anyway, yesterday we had another hard day. We went to a party with his class. We almost didn't go, but I thought it would do us all good to get out of the house. He was pretty grouchy, but was ok for a while. Then, he decided that he needed to sit in the chair that his older brother was in. He started pushing and clawing and screaming that he needed to have that chair (there were like 10 empty ones, of course). I tried to talk to him calmly, but he scratched why wrist really bad, so dh scooped him up and we all went home.


Can I just say that he is an angel today?
 
#34 ·
Flor, I think what you did was reasonable. The choices you offered were reasonable, it isn't like you told him he absolutely could not brush his teeth. You should be allowed to sit down and enjoy a hot meal as long as your child's needs are met. Needing you to brush his teeth is more of a want than a need. I probably would have reacted the same way. IMO when a child tantrums over and over and over he/she is likely tired and in need of a little quiet time or rest. I think you reacted appropriately.

The part about putting that post in the GD forum was a little snarky. GD is not about being a martyr, and foregoing your dinner so you can brush your child's teeth is an example of pushing your basic needs aside for your child's wants.
 
#35 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by 425lisamarie View Post
I'm going to wreck the party here, but why would he have to go to bed at 6:30? Because of a toothbrushing battle?

OMG if you even knew how many people WISH their kid would ask someone to brush their teeth! Honetsly I would have brushed the kids teeth and then finished eating. If you put this in the GD forum btw I'm sure many would say the same thing. Stop making things an issue. If my kid asks me to brush his teeth I'm happy that he took the responsibility to realize they needed brushing and I am happy to do it whenever

I don't think it's fair to ALWAYS make kids do things when WE think they should. Maybe letting him have some of his own will would make him stop fighting for it
Apparently you have never had to deal with a child like this. Personally, when a child is 4 years old and capable of brushing his own teeth, I see no reason why you should interupt your dinner to do it for them. This is the same as my DD needing me to rub her back and keep her company while using the bathroom. If I set that precident, then I will be rubbing her back EVERY time she goes to the bathroom. I have other children to take care of, as well as myself and a husband. It's not practical to think that I can stop what I am doing and sit in the bathroom with her every time she goes. Not to mention she's been going to the bathroom all on her own for well over 2 years now. Parenting is not about responding to every request your child makes.

Getting up from your dinner to brush your childs teeth because they out of the blue decide they need their teeth brushed is not allowing your child to have their own will.....it's allowing your child to run your life with their every demand, which can quickly spiral out of control if you aren't careful.

I think Flor did exactly the right thing.
 
#36 ·
Like I said, lots of people here like to group up together and INSIST there is NO OTHER WAY to all agree about something. You can defend all you want, but sometimes the problem is partially that the parent wants things the way they want them, not willing to bend.

And you didn't paint that picture, all you said was he wanted his teeth brush, you wouldn't do it, ended up going to bed at 6:30

I just think it's funny, there is like this click of mothers around here, "Oh lets just all support eachother and agree this age sucks and there is nothing to do about it."

When you say I have never dealt with "this kind of child" who knows. Maybe I do every day and deal with it better/different. MAybe I have perfect kids
 
#37 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Flor View Post
Later we make up, talk about it, he promises to listen. . .
I have come to the conclusion with my 4 1/2 year old, that she doesn't really get what it means when I say "you need to listen to mommy". I have tried rephrasing it, "you need to do what mommy says", "you need to do what I ask you to do (or not do) the first time I ask you", "you need to obey mommy" ( a term I am not crazy about, but she understands it from preschool).

I found when I would say "you need to listen to mommy" she just didn't seem to get that 'listen' meant to do or not do something.

Try some other phrases and see if it helps. Good luck.
 
#38 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by 425lisamarie View Post
I just think it's funny, there is like this click of mothers around here, "Oh lets just all support eachother and agree this age sucks and there is nothing to do about it."

Ummm, well, for some of us this age does suck, and it's nice to come here for support and know you aren't the only one it sucks for. Parenting is tough, and sometimes when your child is wearing you down you start to feel like you are the only one and that maybe you did something to screw them up. I think it's fantastic that there's support on this website for us.

And, the problem isn't that I want things the way I want them and that I'm unwilling to bend, believe me I've bent over backwards more times than you can imagine. My daughter is allowed many freedoms, and many choices, but tantruming on the bathroom floor because I won't stop what I'm doing and come scratch her back is completely unreasonable and inappropriate and has nothing to do with me wanting things my way. I love my kids, I love them more than anything in the world, but I refuse to let them run my life for me. My DD is perfectly capable of using the bathroom alone and there is no reason what-so-ever for me to put all things on hold (including caring for DD2) so that she can have her back scratched while sitting on the toilet.
 
#39 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Flor View Post
I totatly hear you. It is hard, when you are in the middle of it, to figure out what is real. Am I being a bad mom to him? Or, is he being especially hard? Does he have a mental disorder? Do I? Or, is four just REALLY difficult?? Is it a phase, or the first signs of something bigger? That's why this thread has been really good for me. I
This is so totally me some days. Ds is just so very, very trying these days. DD is also VERY 2 which doesn't help matters.
 
#43 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by 425lisamarie View Post
I just think it's funny, there is like this click of mothers around here, "Oh lets just all support eachother and agree this age sucks and there is nothing to do about it."
I completely understand what you mean about the clique of mothers here, but I am not part of any clique. I only say what I think. My son acts like flor's child on occasion and if I were to jump to his every need and sacrifice my own needs because of it then I would not be a very good mom. I've been through the "mommy martyr" phase when DS1 was little and it didn't turn out too good. I think, as a mom, you need to evaluate your child's request and decide whether or not it is feasible (sp?) to comply at the time. You cannot just do whatever your child wants when your child wants - it is not realistic. There is a fine line and there needs to be balance.

I'm sorry if you felt ganged up on, but I thought your comments were a little harsh so I wanted to add my own $.02 in.
 
#44 ·
It's nice to just be able to get it off your chest now and then with people who get it. Thanks, ladies! Knowing other moms are feeling and experiencing the same stuff, helps me not take it all too hard when it's going down.

As for there not being anything to do about it, of course there is. Lots of stuff. But sometimes we just have to blow off steam, then we can get to the business of problem solving or just gathering our patience.
 
#46 ·
I love my daughter so much. Zoe is like my best friend, my little sidekick, my sunshine. She makes me laugh and smile just as much as she pisses me off. But I have to say...

4 SUCKS!!!!!!!!!

I would take the terrible 2's, 3's whatever any day. I can honestly say she never drove as crazy as she does now. I have been going to therapy for the last 3 months to work on childhood issues/parenting skills/anxiety, and it is helping my cope with her and her spirited 4 year old stuff so much better.
 
#47 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainbowbird View Post
I just wanted to say, "This too shall pass." Our DS is 4.5 and we just came out of a similar phase. As he emerged from it, he suddenly had all these new skills and maturity. He began getting really interested in poetry and rhymes and is making them up now all day long.!
That's so interesting. Mine has done something similar with the Rhyming and spouting out random letters and wanting to know what they spell. And it's been really, really, really rough! Hugs to everyone.
 
#48 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by 425lisamarie View Post
Like I said, lots of people here like to group up together and INSIST there is NO OTHER WAY to all agree about something. You can defend all you want, but sometimes the problem is partially that the parent wants things the way they want them, not willing to bend.

I just think it's funny, there is like this click of mothers around here, "Oh lets just all support eachother and agree this age sucks and there is nothing to do about it."

When you say I have never dealt with "this kind of child" who knows. Maybe I do every day and deal with it better/different. MAybe I have perfect kids

For my part, I really don't have any other advice except to sympathize. I didn't want to read and not post when I'm going through the EXACT same thing. The back scrathing, the tantrums, the strange demand in the middle of dinner (and it's something they KNOW you want them to do)

I'm living these very things on top of weird sensory issues - socks with the seams in the wrong places, all pants that are too tight, pre-school now insisting on shorts, or tights under dresses (did I mention all waist bands are too tight?). On top of this, seeing all of the other children who seem to be more pliable and receptive and all of the other mothers who calmly repeat their requests and then calmly take their kids to time out. And I have thrashing, tantruming writhing child, I'm trying to remove to keep them from disturbing others (Sunday school last week where I was the teacher and she trantrummed for 25 minutes of the 50 minute session while I tried to deal with 4 other 4 year olds!).

And yes, I feel the same way. I'm here working 40 hours a week and everyone else appears to have these well-behaved children. All of the other mothers on my block stay home (or work very part-time) and send the kids to preschool a few mornings a week and I look at my little strong-willed redhead and I wonder if it's really me that's the problem.

My latest bit of fear-thinking is that if we don't resolve these issues now at 4, we're going to revisit this when she's 13 and she won't just run 1/3 of a mile away, but she'll be out the door and on the streets! Like everyone else, I'm totally drained and it's helpful to know that even mothers who stay home and even ones with multiple children and who subscribe to a similar philosophy of giving lots of freedom and meeting requests as they are able have the same sorts of problems.
 
#49 ·
I't's been awhile since I had a 4 year old. Now I have two. (My next youngest is 11)

I swear these two tag team me to see who can get me crazy and hauled away first.

They climb on everything. Have melt downs. Scream, whine, cry for no apparent reason. No matter what I try, nothing seems to work. And what worked yesterday will not work today.

Caleb goes to sleep quite easily but then chases me around the bed. He has to be touching me all night. I'd just like a little bit of space to call my own even if I am sleeping through it.
Livia sleeps in her own bed but takes forever to go to sleep. Talking, singing, yelling, getting out of bed and changing jammies a few times. Putting socks on. Taking socks off. Wants her lamb. No, it's the bear she wants. Forget it, she wants the tiger. Nightlight on. Turn it off. ARGHHHHHHHH!!!! Just go to sleep already!
:

I'd forgotten what 4 year olds were like and now I have TWO! I love them dearly, would not trade them for anything in the world, but what I would not give for a little less of a struggle with them!

It doesn't help any when everyone else's suggestion is to spank them....
 
#50 ·
For me it has been helpful to see that others are going through the same thing. I don't think "there's nothing we can do about it" is the conclusion. I think the conclusion is , "It's not just him (or me)" but that there is a developmental componant to it as well.

After we had to leave theparty the other day, I was sobbing in the car. I was so heartbroken to be having such a hard time with my little guy that I LOVE SO MUCH. I just hate it. It is so different from the two's when you could talk them out of things, or even just scoop th em up or refocus. Now there is so much intensity. The requests are so unreasonable (did I mention that ds wasn't even done eating when he wanted his teeth brushed? It was like he wanted to brush his teeth between eating his biscuit and his corn.) The melt downs do seem to be about control. I want you to do this for me now (even though I've done it myself a hundred times)!
 
#51 ·
The developmental idea makes sense to me, DS has learned so much in the past 6 mos or so. I think a lot of his frustration comes from wanting to do everything for himself but not being allowed to. For example, he wants to cut his own hair, and carry his brother around the house.
I'm not willing to bend on those things, and he's past the age where a doll or a fake hair cutting kit will do the trick.
 
#52 ·
snipped a bunch for brevity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellien C View Post
On top of this, seeing all of the other children who seem to be more pliable and receptive and all of the other mothers who calmly repeat their requests and then calmly take their kids to time out. And I have thrashing, tantruming writhing child, I'm trying to remove to keep them from disturbing others (Sunday school last week where I was the teacher and she trantrummed for 25 minutes of the 50 minute session while I tried to deal with 4 other 4 year olds!).

And yes, I feel the same way. I'm here working 40 hours a week and everyone else appears to have these well-behaved children. All of the other mothers on my block stay home (or work very part-time) and send the kids to preschool a few mornings a week and I look at my little strong-willed redhead and I wonder if it's really me that's the problem.
Oh, yeah, I feel you on the first part. My kid is SOOOOO NOT receptive to time out. We tried the whole 1-2-3 Magic thing for a few months... every single time we did time out, it was a giant screaming flailing fight to the bitter end. He wouldn't go to, or stay in time out unless physically compelled to do so. EVER. No matter how many times we did it. We eventually abandoned it altogether.

And, yeah, look, I'm a SAHM, and my son is with me all the time. I have wondered if he'd do better if I were WOH and he went to school all day
:

DS still has some really bad days, but he seems to be ageing out of some of the worst of the F---ing Fours
Still, the hardest part for me has been finding ways to still like him, at least some of the time. I *love* him with everything in me, but... wow, it is hard to live with him, and it can be so hard to appreciate his positive qualities, or enjoy his company. Anybody have any suggestions for that?
 
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