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#61 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 01:43 PM
 
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Just a guesss here....
but maybe it has to do with the fact that male and female clothing is different. Grown up male clothing doesn't accentuate the male thigh, chest (not that they have one), doesn't make them walk in a tripping, sexy way, it's not generally very form fitting and it doesn't show off excessive amounts of skin (which can be ok, just depends). Male dress up clothing is the equivalent of a nice feminine dress and mary janes on a little girl. I think people who are saying they are turned off by little girls being dressed up are talking about the "sexy" dress up clothing made for them. Things such as bare backed sundresses with short skirts and plunging necklines combined with high heels for example.
Exactly.

I haven't read the entire thread either, but what is wrong with boys with short hair? I must have missed something.

When it comes to DD, we also HATE the "spoiled", "princess", etc. shirts. They make me want to gag. We also fore-go heels, 2 pc. bathing suits and make-up of ANY kind (even play gloss). She'll only be a child for 18 years, why the need to grow up so fast?

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#62 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 01:53 PM
 
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She'll only be a child for 18 years, why the need to grow up so fast?
We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one, but if my dd is anything like my sister and I were, she'll stop feeling like a "child" far before her 18th birthday. To me, that's an artificial milestone, imposed by society and the government, that doesn't have a lot to do with actual maturity, emotional or otherwise.

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#63 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 02:02 PM
 
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We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one, but if my dd is anything like my sister and I were, she'll stop feeling like a "child" far before her 18th birthday. To me, that's an artificial milestone, imposed by society and the government, that doesn't have a lot to do with actual maturity, emotional or otherwise.
Wow. It wasn't meant to be a stone-clad 'milestone'. My point was that as long as they are children, we should protect them as so.

Also, I was a child until I was 18 and I hope my daughter takes her time too.

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#64 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 02:27 PM
 
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I think overall what I am getting from this thread is that there is a line beyond which a lot of us, as moms, do not feel comfortable.

This line may be different for each of us, and it may or may not include things like shirts with labels (Princess, spoiled, etc.) on the front, shorts or pants with words on the butt (which personally I don't like even for adult women - it is like hanging up a sign saying look at my butt, and really, who needs that?), high heels, makeup, certain hair styles, etc.

I think the bottom line for all of us, though, no matter where we draw that line, is that we are all uncomfortable with a society that sexualizes little girls, no matter what specific articles of clothing we might perceive as playing that role.

Is there a double standard for little boys? Maybe. Probably, because there usually is. Frankly, the little man clothes just don't look "sexy" to me in the same way that a string bikini or high heels on a five year old might. But I think chfriend has a good point about them being "mating" clothes, so to speak.

I don't have a son, and so am totally unfamiliar with the market with regards to dress up clothes for little guys, but I don't think, personally, that I would be dressing a little guy with different standards than I have for dress-up clothes for my little girls: It must be comfortable and age-appropriate. I think clunky shoes, ties, and mini-business suits for little boys would pretty much fail on both counts, just like sexy dresses, high heels, and certain up-dos for little girls. Not sure how short hair for little boys is a problem, any more than short hair for little girls - maybe someone could explain that?

Anyway, the main thought I had reading these posts is that I think we are closer together than many might think. I think we are all moms who want to protect our children and see them grow up safely, and have good childhoods.

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#65 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 02:44 PM
 
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Wow. It wasn't meant to be a stone-clad 'milestone'. My point was that as long as they are children, we should protect them as so.

Also, I was a child until I was 18 and I hope my daughter takes her time too.
In some ways, I was a child for longer than that, in other ways not. I don't at all disagree that children should be protected.

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#66 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 03:46 PM
 
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But isn't that the outfit a heterosexual man puts on when he wants to attract a heterosexual woman (sexually) by demonstrating his success? My kids (both girls) don't particularly like this stuff, but have friends who are girls that do. I don't think anything in particular about them or their parents, or even think it's my place to think very much about it.

I think a little girl can wear dress shoes and an upstyle hairdo to a big occasion without being described as sexy just as much as a boy can wear business attire without a reaction. Boys can't play in those outfits anymore than girls can play in theirs.
There is a *big* difference between dressing successfully or dressing up - and dressing to show off one's body in a sexual way. I don't think anyone here has a problem with dressy shoes and hair worn up per se so much as a problem with the kind of outfit I described (high heels, strapless or barebacked and plunging neckline and short skirt) which is becoming more and more common for young girls.

Besides, most men I know don't wear a suit to attract a woman, they wear something much more casual reserving suits for the few jobs and events that still require them and complaining loudly when they are necessary.

There is nothing wrong in my opinion with dressing nicely - just a problem with sexualizing little girls.

I think Limited Too is a great example. They sell thong underwear for little 5-7 yr old girls!! Why??? Are they wearing such tight tight pants that they need them? Is it supposed to be attractive on them? Surely they don't find it comfortable!! It's because it's supposed to be "cool" and "sexy". Same goes for a lot of other little girl's clothing.

I really don't have a problem with boys wearing suits to a wedding or something. Nor do I have a problem with a very very low walkable heel and updo for a girl in a wedding or for some other fancy occasion. I know that's been brought up here as "bad" but the point I think is more the obviously sexy clothing - ie things that were designed and meant to look sexy on a grown woman suddenly becoming all the rage for little girls.

Part of it has to do with marketing. Marketers back in the 50's found they could make a ton of money off of marketing to teens. The latest marketing trend is to market to "tweens" ie kids about 7-11 or so.

Back a few generations ago, teens were considered children or at the end maybe adults. Now they are considered teens, youth, adolescents well up into their 20's and not expected to take on adult responsibilities until then. This new age label has it's own fashions and is marketed to heavily.

In past generations, 7-11 yr olds have been considered children. Now they are being considered "tweens" instead and thus marketers think they need to be marketed too just as teens were/are.
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#67 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 03:48 PM
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Why is okay to dress boys as grown ups but not girls? Why is that not sexualizing boys?

I'm geniunely confused about why little girls being dressed up makes people want to vomit, but boys being dress up in little tiny business suits doesn't.
Because ties and pants and shoes are not about sexuality. They are just formal wear.

High heels (besides being grossly bad for the feet) are about sexuality.
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#68 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 03:49 PM
 
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I think overall what I am getting from this thread is that there is a line beyond which a lot of us, as moms, do not feel comfortable.

This line may be different for each of us, and it may or may not include things like shirts with labels (Princess, spoiled, etc.) on the front, shorts or pants with words on the butt (which personally I don't like even for adult women - it is like hanging up a sign saying look at my butt, and really, who needs that?), high heels, makeup, certain hair styles, etc.

I think the bottom line for all of us, though, no matter where we draw that line, is that we are all uncomfortable with a society that sexualizes little girls, no matter what specific articles of clothing we might perceive as playing that role.

Is there a double standard for little boys? Maybe. Probably, because there usually is. Frankly, the little man clothes just don't look "sexy" to me in the same way that a string bikini or high heels on a five year old might. But I think chfriend has a good point about them being "mating" clothes, so to speak.

I don't have a son, and so am totally unfamiliar with the market with regards to dress up clothes for little guys, but I don't think, personally, that I would be dressing a little guy with different standards than I have for dress-up clothes for my little girls: It must be comfortable and age-appropriate. I think clunky shoes, ties, and mini-business suits for little boys would pretty much fail on both counts, just like sexy dresses, high heels, and certain up-dos for little girls. Not sure how short hair for little boys is a problem, any more than short hair for little girls - maybe someone could explain that?

Anyway, the main thought I had reading these posts is that I think we are closer together than many might think. I think we are all moms who want to protect our children and see them grow up safely, and have good childhoods.
Ha ha - much of what I just said and then found that 3 people had posted when I was writing. Good post
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#69 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 04:16 PM
 
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I think the bottom line for all of us, though, no matter where we draw that line, is that we are all uncomfortable with a society that sexualizes little girls, no matter what specific articles of clothing we might perceive as playing that role.
I don't like the idea of sexualizing little girls, of course, but I'm not sure I think that's what's really going on in our society. It seems to me that when adult styles are adopted by little girls, it's sort of a de-sexualization of those styles. If little girls are wearing thong underwear or pants with writing on the butt, maybe it's not so much that people are starting to see little girls as sexual beings, but that thong underwear and butt writing are starting to seem tamer, more ordinary, less sexy. Kind of like how it would once have seemed very inappropriately sexy for a woman or girl to wear shorts in public, but now it's unremarkable.

I can't get too disturbed about the idea of little girls wearing stuff that's "too sexy" because I just can't imagine anyone but a pedophile thinking a 7 year old looked sexy, no matter what she was wearing. (And the pedophile would probably have the same feelings no matter what the kid was wearing.)
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#70 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 05:32 PM
 
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I can't get too disturbed about the idea of little girls wearing stuff that's "too sexy" because I just can't imagine anyone but a pedophile thinking a 7 year old looked sexy, no matter what she was wearing. (And the pedophile would probably have the same feelings no matter what the kid was wearing.)
: That captures my thoughts pretty well. I'm wondering what clothes would be considered sexually attractive on boys/men if it's not dress clothes and buzzed hair (so they look "tough" and "successful" attractive features for heterosexual men).
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#71 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 05:50 PM
 
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I don't like the idea of sexualizing little girls, of course, but I'm not sure I think that's what's really going on in our society. It seems to me that when adult styles are adopted by little girls, it's sort of a de-sexualization of those styles. If little girls are wearing thong underwear or pants with writing on the butt, maybe it's not so much that people are starting to see little girls as sexual beings, but that thong underwear and butt writing are starting to seem tamer, more ordinary, less sexy. Kind of like how it would once have seemed very inappropriately sexy for a woman or girl to wear shorts in public, but now it's unremarkable.
I dunno....I think it's just another symptom of the tacki-fying of America. When I was a child, it was easy to find a movie that didn't have fuck as every third word. People didn't have plastic testicles hanging from the back of their trucks, or Calvin peeing on things in their windows, people didn't 'sing' songs about bitches and hos, and children didn't run around dressed like streetwalkers.

Either I'm much more prim and proper than I could have ever imagined, or our world is just turning into one big trailer park.

I'm officially old.

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#72 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 06:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I dunno....I think it's just another symptom of the tacki-fying of America. When I was a child, it was easy to find a movie that didn't have fuck as every third word. People didn't have plastic testicles hanging from the back of their trucks, or Calvin peeing on things in their windows, people didn't 'sing' songs about bitches and hos, and children didn't run around dressed like streetwalkers.

Either I'm much more prim and proper than I could have ever imagined, or our world is just turning into one big trailer park.

I'm officially old.
Amen to that!

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#73 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 06:49 PM
 
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I can't get too disturbed about the idea of little girls wearing stuff that's "too sexy" because I just can't imagine anyone but a pedophile thinking a 7 year old looked sexy, no matter what she was wearing. (And the pedophile would probably have the same feelings no matter what the kid was wearing.)
True, but when we have 10 year olds actually looking like 20 year olds, the problem is a lot more widespread and not limited to perverts and/or pedophiles.

bigeyes - I totally agree.

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#74 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 07:05 PM
 
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Some girls like to play in heels. I get that you are bowing to your son's preferences and would never impose your standards of maleness on him, but some little girls like to play in heels.

Little girls are not public property for people to judge their appearance any more than little boys are.
i completely agree with this.

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Is there a double standard for little boys? Maybe. Probably, because there usually is. Frankly, the little man clothes just don't look "sexy" to me in the same way that a string bikini or high heels on a five year old might. But I think chfriend has a good point about them being "mating" clothes, so to speak.
5 year olds are never sexy. i don't care what you put on them, they're just not sexy. so i'm not really buying this argument.

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Because ties and pants and shoes are not about sexuality. They are just formal wear.

High heels (besides being grossly bad for the feet) are about sexuality.
not really. my 7yo has a pair. she bought them with her own money. they light up. they are not about sexuality. i just asked her why she likes to wear them so much, and she told me because she thinks they "look cool," and they make her taller.

i have a real problem with people picking on children's clothes, especially when it's something the child has chosen themselves. i also have a real problem with the misogyny on this thread (calling kids mini streetwalkers, etc) and people sexualizing children. cause if that's what you see when you look at a little kid with high heels, it's YOU that is sexualizing them, not the shoes.
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#75 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 07:19 PM
 
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I dunno....I think it's just another symptom of the tacki-fying of America. When I was a child, it was easy to find a movie that didn't have fuck as every third word. People didn't have plastic testicles hanging from the back of their trucks, or Calvin peeing on things in their windows, people didn't 'sing' songs about bitches and hos, and children didn't run around dressed like streetwalkers.
No, you didn't see those things when we were kids. But you did see guys with long hair, women smoking and wearing pants, TV shows where husbands and wives were shown sleeping in the same bed, people dancing to rock music with their hips gyrating . . . and all of those things once seemed every bit as rude and shocking as the things that bother you.

I guess you could see it as a steady and frightening decline in morals, or you could see it as a harmless pattern of progressively changing social customs. Younger generations like to do things that shock their parents, the things that once seemed shocking inevitably become less so, the next generation comes up with new shocking things, and so on. A lot of what makes certain things shocking is simply arbitrary social convention - there's nothing inherently wrong with saying the word "fuck," for instance - so I see it all as pretty harmless.
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#76 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 07:34 PM
 
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i also have a real problem with the misogyny on this thread (calling kids mini streetwalkers, etc) and people sexualizing children. cause if that's what you see when you look at a little kid with high heels, it's YOU that is sexualizing them, not the shoes.
I've seen little boys dressed as mini-pimps, and I don't think that's cute or funny either. There is a big difference between stating that clothing looks like something a streetwalker might wear, and calling a child a streetwalker. When I see a child dressed that way, if the parents aren't around, I just figure they have no taste and no sense of propriety. If the parents are around, they usually prove me right.

I've worked with some of these little girls grown up, and they're the ones that think dressed up means evening clothes. They come to the office in clubwear and are shocked when someone tells them it's inappropriate. They show up at school functions in spaghetti strap tank tops, go to job interviews in jeans and low cut shirts, and complain about how people look down on them all the time. They are either sincerely clueless, or they somehow got the idea that life works like a bad USA TV movie.

Personally, I think it's the ultimate in misogyny for any woman to think the only way to be noticed is to traipse around in heels and show her cleavage. How cute that people start teaching this to their daughters as early as age 3.

And I don't think it's progressive at all that our society has no manners, or that people have no idea what professional attire is, or that people think it's OK to swear in front of toddlers. I think it's sad.

I can't imagine celebrating this.

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#77 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 08:15 PM
 
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I guess my big issue with revealing/sexy clothes and shoes on young girls is that girls like my niece, who is 10, can look 14 or 15. She is very tall, has breasts, and when she wears plunging necklines, tight low cut pants, and heels, she looks very womanly, but her brain is still that of a 10 year old.

When I was 10, I wore "play clothes" after school, which was basically wrangler jeans and a t shirt, with some sneakers. My mother could barely get me to brush my hair. I had friends who liked boys and dressed up a bit more, but that involved much less than it does today, it seems.
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#78 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 08:26 PM
 
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i don't have aproblem with girls wearing heels for dress up (like putting on mom's heels or wearing those silly ones that you get for kids to dress up in) but i do find it a bit weird to see small girls in heels made for them to wear with their everyday clothes. seems a bit much to me.

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bigeyes: The tacki-fying... that is funny! And true!

H

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#80 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 09:01 PM
 
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I guess my big issue with revealing/sexy clothes and shoes on young girls is that girls like my niece, who is 10, can look 14 or 15. She is very tall, has breasts, and when she wears plunging necklines, tight low cut pants, and heels, she looks very womanly, but her brain is still that of a 10 year old.
Me too. My dsd is 10, but she's 5 feet tall and weighs 135 lbs. She is also developmentally delayed in some way we have yet to get diagnosed. She has the maturity of a 7 year old, but she looks 12. In a couple of years she could look 16 with the mind of a 10 year old. There is not a snowball's chance I'm letting her leave the house with words on her butt, or in shoes with a 4" heel, or in a shirt cut down to her navel. Not gonna happen.

We were shopping for a new swimsuit the other day, and she looked perfectly fine in everything she tried on, but she rejected them all, saying they didn't look good. I finally figured out what her problem was. She looked like a child and she wanted to find a magic swimsuit that would transform her into an adult sex-goddess. She was looking for a heavily padded top so she could have the illusion of curves. She's 10! If she were 16, maybe I could understand, but I'm having a difficult time relating to a 10 year old being upset because she isn't 36-24-36. :


I find it especially sad that our society is so sick that most people seem to think it's OK to sexualize children, and we're the odd ones for refusing to go along with it, or God forbid, wanting our children to be children.

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#81 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 09:28 PM
 
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You mean like this?

OMG, that's EXACTLY what dd's shoes look like, only they're red!!

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Why is okay to dress boys as grown ups but not girls? Why is that not sexualizing boys?

I'm geniunely confused about why little girls being dressed up makes people want to vomit, but boys being dress up in little tiny business suits doesn't.
Because what the boys are wearing is BUSINESS attire. Would you be OK with a 3 yo boy in a shirt unbuttoned to the navel?

I'm OK if you dress either boys or girls in business attire. But since when are 3" wedge heels "business" attire? Modestly cut dresses with the 3 yo equivalent of a pump? Sure.

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#82 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 09:28 PM
 
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And I don't think it's progressive at all that our society has no manners, or that people have no idea what professional attire is, or that people think it's OK to swear in front of toddlers. I think it's sad.
When I mentioned "progressively changing social customs" I didn't mean "progressive" in the sense of getting better. I just meant moving in a predictable direction.
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#83 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 09:37 PM
 
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No, you didn't see those things when we were kids. But you did see guys with long hair, women smoking and wearing pants, TV shows where husbands and wives were shown sleeping in the same bed, people dancing to rock music with their hips gyrating . . . and all of those things once seemed every bit as rude and shocking as the things that bother you.

I guess you could see it as a steady and frightening decline in morals, or you could see it as a harmless pattern of progressively changing social customs. Younger generations like to do things that shock their parents, the things that once seemed shocking inevitably become less so, the next generation comes up with new shocking things, and so on. A lot of what makes certain things shocking is simply arbitrary social convention - there's nothing inherently wrong with saying the word "fuck," for instance - so I see it all as pretty harmless.
But do we just go along and continue being desensitized by everything we see and hear? Or do we say enough is enough and stop writing everything off to society 'evolving'.

IMO, 'progress' isn't always good. I think the moral fabric of society is deteriorating, quickly, and people are just accepting it as 'change'.

For me, I'll happily be the over-protective, prudish mother and wife.

Oh, side note, yes there is something inherently wrong with saying the "F" word. It was a term coined for someone who cheated on their spouses way back when. It was quite the crime (obviously), but now, of course, people act like it's not a big deal to throw it around like nothing. Sad.

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#84 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 09:53 PM
 
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When I mentioned "progressively changing social customs" I didn't mean "progressive" in the sense of getting better. I just meant moving in a predictable direction.
Predictable in the sense of if you don't do anything, then yes, it will continue to get worse. That's not really predictable, so much as lazy and apathetic.

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But do we just go along and continue being desensitized by everything we see and hear? Or do we say enough is enough and stop writing everything off to society 'evolving'.

IMO, 'progress' isn't always good. I think the moral fabric of society is deteriorating, quickly, and people are just accepting it as 'change'.

For me, I'll happily be the over-protective, prudish mother and wife.

Oh, side note, yes there is something inherently wrong with saying the "F" word. It was a term coined for someone who cheated on their spouses way back when. It was quite the crime (obviously), but now, of course, people act like it's not a big deal to throw it around like nothing. Sad.
Yes to all of that.

Why don't we just throw out all pretense of manners or consideration for others? Proper dress, please and thank you, road etiquette, polite conversation, all things of the past. Then maybe we can get rid of traffic lights, silverware, laws, rules of all kinds, because, after all, one big free for all where nobody has any respect for themselves or others is the natural progression of things.

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#85 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 09:58 PM
 
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while I'm not crazy about little girls wearing heels for many reasons, I don't judge. My four year old LOVES fashion, high heels, etc., and has gotten a couple of pairs (maybe 1" heels, max.) She adores them. Just because she has them on at the store, park, etc. it doesn't mean she's been in them all day-that's a special arrangement we've agreed upon where it was important to her to wear them, and I made the exception.
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#86 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 10:03 PM
 
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I find the boy=girl examples interesting, in that if I were to equate a boy outfit to that of a little girl in high heels and plunging necklines, stiff jeans and haard shoes, or business suits, don't come to mind. What comes to mind would be... I don't know... a silky shirt unbuttoned half way and some tight pants.

The polo shirts, stiff jeans etc would equate imo to a simple dress or maybe a little suit with a skirt? Not necessarily inappropriate..

Just making this equation to show that we all have some different ideas of what we think looks "grown up" or "sexy"

Everyones entitled to have opinions about how they think children look...Lots of people here apparently don't care for the look of young girls in high heels. Personally I don't like seeing little boys with gel in their hair. I have no idea why. I just cringe everytime I see it...
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#87 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 10:18 PM
 
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I used to love wearing heels when I was a kid. Mom would take me to the Salvation Army and let me pick out shoes. They were of course very big on me, but I had a blast. Nothing sexual about it. I wore them cause I loved walking in them, loved the sound they made. Oh and I especially loved the disapproving looks I got from the ladies at church. Mind you this thread seems to be more directed at heel specifically sized and marketed for kids and maybe that's a little different. I wore mine purely for fun and shock value, not as an everyday pair of shoes.

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#88 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 10:21 PM
 
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I'm not reading the whole thread to state that I loved wearing heels when I was a little girl and I would also pretend to be a "lady of the night" for some reason. Make of that what you will.
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#89 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 11:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bigeyes View Post
Why don't we just throw out all pretense of manners or consideration for others? Proper dress, please and thank you, road etiquette, polite conversation, all things of the past. Then maybe we can get rid of traffic lights, silverware, laws, rules of all kinds, because, after all, one big free for all where nobody has any respect for themselves or others is the natural progression of things.
A 5 or 6 year old getting dressed up with heels, a dress and fancy hair for her graduation is going to cause all that?
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#90 of 113 Old 06-10-2008, 11:36 PM
 
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I'm OK if you dress either boys or girls in business attire. But since when are 3" wedge heels "business" attire? Modestly cut dresses with the 3 yo equivalent of a pump? Sure.
I'm unsure where someone posted about kids in 3 inch wedges, the kindergartener I think was supposedly in 2 in heels.

And I've worked a decade or so in a conservative field in a conservative part of the country and 3 inch heels are not at all unusual or out of place. In fact, my dressing modestly in sensible shoes stands out a lot more. But if I wore heels that tall, I'd tower over the men, which would be very unbusinesslike!
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