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#1 of 50 Old 05-03-2004, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quite often, I hear the pro life argument that if you don't want a pregnancy, then abstain. How does this work within a marriage? Do you not marry at all? Not engage in sexual activity?

For those who feel bc is wrong, what should people who must avoid pregnancy do? FAM isn't always possible.

I"m truly interested in your replies.

Yes, I"m pro choice. No, my mind is not changing.

I just wish to understand this position better.

Thank you.
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#2 of 50 Old 05-03-2004, 12:42 PM
 
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My dh and I have been using Natural Family Planning for 8 years of marriage and yes we abstain when I am fertile so as to avoid an undesired pregnancy. We have 2 children that were concieved when we were ready for them. So it has worked for us for approx 60 cycles (the other 20 I have been preg and lactating) For us it is about respecting our bodies. Makes no sense to us to eat organically, avoid unecessary medications, avoid exposure to chemicals and other pollutants and then turn around and take a hormone pill every day. The other side of the respect issue for us is respecting my gift of fertility. By abstaining during my fertile days, my dh is saying, "I respect your awesome powers of fertility and reproduction - we do not have use birth control so that I can pleasure myself at will - I have enough self control to abstain for 7 to 9 days" Hope that gives you some insight and some things to think about.

I don't think you have to be pro-life to use natural methods and have a healthy respect for your fertility. I believe there a lot of women here that use Fertility awareness and are pro-choice.
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#3 of 50 Old 05-03-2004, 12:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RubyV
Quite often, I hear the pro life argument that if you don't want a pregnancy, then abstain. How does this work within a marriage? Do you not marry at all? Not engage in sexual activity?
For my marriage it meant vasectomy. If you don't want a baby you should do the most you can to prevent it IMO. Yes, I think you should abstain if you don't want another baby and don't want to use birth control.
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#4 of 50 Old 05-03-2004, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh, I used FAM sucessfully for years. I was interested in situations where fam isn't pratical or possible. For example, I cannot use fam now because it is pretty much impossible to temp (my dd nurses alot at night, I never get 4 hours straight sleep, menstruation hasn't returened). Would the pro life take be for my husband and I to stop having sex altogether until it's possible to use fam successfully? In that case, it may be a year or more. KWIM?

How does the pro life view of this work successfully in this context, particularly for those who o believe bc is immoral.

Should those who want to be child free not marry at all? What about those whose health requires avoiding pregnancy at all costs.

Thank you.

AnnMarie, does that mean that married couple should abstain altogether?
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#5 of 50 Old 05-03-2004, 01:19 PM
 
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I also practice NFP....just abstain during fertile times. It's all about self-control and being aware that actions have consequences.

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#6 of 50 Old 05-03-2004, 02:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RubyV
AnnMarie, does that mean that married couple should abstain altogether?
No, and I just added to my post. I mean if someone doesn't want to use birth control but they don't want children either then they should abstain or be willing to care for a child should they get pregnant. No birth control is 100%, I realize that. If an adult knows this and still has sex then I think they should still be willing to take care of the child should they become pregnant, or give the baby up for adoption.
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#7 of 50 Old 05-03-2004, 05:14 PM
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If you seriously cannot imagine being pregnant you should either abstain or get sterilized(sp?)

Extreme, yes, I guess most married people aren't that opposed to children.

Um....I've never had any form of contraception fail

DB
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#8 of 50 Old 05-03-2004, 05:18 PM
 
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Condoms. I'm pro-life and I don't have anything against barrier methods of BC. Condoms, female condom, cervical cap, diaphragm. I'm currently using LAM (lactational...) and haven't had my period since I had dd. Not that it works for everyone. With ds, I got my period back much sooner and had to keep track of my cycles and fertility stuff.

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#9 of 50 Old 05-03-2004, 05:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by phathui5
Condoms. I'm pro-life and I don't have anything against barrier methods of BC. Condoms, female condom, cervical cap, diaphragm.
I agree. DH and I have been married for 7 yrs. Since we married (well actually eloped) so young (20) we did not feel ready to have children. We started out using pills After two years we started using condoms. I've only recently learned of NFP and have just been too chicken & lazy to try it.

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#10 of 50 Old 05-03-2004, 06:06 PM
 
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I'm not anti-birth control. I am pro-life. I realize that any one method of birth control will not work for everyone. I believe that anyone having sex should realize that there is no 100% method and should have thought through what they would do if they get pregnant--includes both unmarried and married people.

I would see the options as either keep the baby or give it up for adoption--this would have been my two options if i had (or do) get pregnant at a time when i wasn't ready for a baby.
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#11 of 50 Old 05-03-2004, 06:23 PM
 
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the OP brought up some really good questions.

and fwiw ~
Quote:
I've never had any form of contraception fail
every single one of my six siblings, and myself, were ALL contraception babies. the last two of us were double-contraception babies (my parents used 2 forms of birth control).

almost every other teen mom i've met (and i've met a ton, because i used to counsel them) got pregnant while using some form of birth control.

so... congratulations on never getting pregnant while using contraception, but for a lot of people, it doesn't work out that well.
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#12 of 50 Old 05-03-2004, 10:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by klothos
every single one of my six siblings, and myself, were ALL contraception babies. the last two of us were double-contraception babies (my parents used 2 forms of birth control).
What kind of contraception were they using? Was it a condom that broke or spilled, or did it just plain not work? I don't suppose you'd know, but I'm curious for my own sake since that is all we are using. I have known people who say that they have gotten pregnant while on the pill and using condoms at the same time. I can understand how the pill can fail because it has to change the chemistry in your body and I can see it not working for everyone.

My niece got pregnant on the pill after her seizure medication was changed and she wasn't told it would diminish the effectiveness of her contraception method. My other sister got pregnant while on the pill, but she admits that she didn't take it regularly and then later admitted she got pregnant on purpose. I have another friend who got pregnant while on the pill, and she said it was because she ran out while she was on vacation, but that really confused me. If you run out and miss a dose or two, then you have to start all over again and use a barrier method for awhile until after your next period or something. So I've always wanted to ask her if she did that because I really want to know just how ineffective these things are, ya know? But I didn't want to upset her by seeming like I was questioning her, so I just left it alone. She has clearly stressed the accidental nature of her pregnancy, but I know she wanted to have a child and there is no shame in wanting and having a baby.

I know two other women online who both got pregnant on condoms while waiting for their husband to get vasectomies, and they were clearly not happy about it at first, so I know they really were expecting the condoms to work. The one woman said her OB was teasing her saying, "You know those aren't effective in preventing pregnancy." I'm really confused about it because that is all we use (OK, well, abstaining for long periods also). My husband has clearly stated that he doesn't want another baby, but he is just as adamant about not having a vasectomy. I wouldn't mind another baby, I don't think, although I'm happy with two. I like to hold onto the idea that I might get accidentally pregnant, but I really don't see how.

I guess we are just not that fertile. I've had no trouble getting pregnant as soon as we stopped using condoms, but even misusing them during my fertile time has not resulted in pregnancy. We misuse them by having insertion without a condom and putting it on towards the end, which we clearly realized could result in pregnancy, but we were prepared to accept that.

Now we abstain, or just about, so I won't be having another baby unless that changes.
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#13 of 50 Old 05-04-2004, 12:17 AM
 
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I too am a "condom baby", my parents were married but just not planning on me...they're not quite sure what happened...
this is an issue i struggle with greatly as a pro-lifer...i can't in good conscience use the bcp, personally, but barrier methods are not that fantastic (we're highly fertile ). when I think about it, I think God gives us babies when He wishes to, but it's hard to just let that happen, esp when you're fairly sure He'll end up giving us one every year...kids are blessings, of course. most people i know do use methods of bc other than natural family planning. we are still figuring this all out.
i DO think you shouldn't be doin' it unless you're ok with having a baby. because they do tend to show up. if you're not ok with having a baby, don't do it. and almost, don't get married. for real, that is one of the main purposes of marriage, IMO: to have children, at least at some time, {that is if you are physically able}.
i'll keep reading this thread to see if i can gain some wisdom...
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#14 of 50 Old 05-04-2004, 12:23 AM
 
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I'm a little confused... "pro-life" does not necessarily mean "anti-birth control." I am firmly pro-life, but I use BC and I am fine with it. I morally object to the pill and other hormonal methods (and possibly the IUD, since they don't know whether it prevents implantation or fertilization) which prevent implantation, but I have no problem with barrier methods.

Mom to 5 wonderful kids (9, 6, 4, 2 and 0), 1 adopted through foster care.

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#15 of 50 Old 05-04-2004, 12:25 AM
 
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What kind of contraception were they using?
my mom tried everything that was available to her at the time -- IUD, diaphragm, diaphragm + spermicide, condoms + birth control pills, condoms + fertility awareness... at one point the dr's told her she'd never be able to get pregnant again, and was on birth control pills still at the time (i think)... and that's when my brother came along.

i think that's when she and my dad got super-careful... not that it did them any good. two kids later, here i am. :LOL
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#16 of 50 Old 05-04-2004, 12:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
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While the questio nwas directed to anyone, I was especially interested in the opinions of those who feel bc ( with the exectpion of NFP) is immoral.

I'll try to respond to what I've read here tomorrow.
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#17 of 50 Old 05-04-2004, 12:55 AM
 
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I was especially interested in the opinions of those who feel bc ( with the exectpion of NFP) is immoral.
i can't answer personally, but i feel led to comment about something one of my sisters did... she went through a very Catholic phase in her life (she's past it now -- she tends to try on lifestyles one-after-the-other... but anyway...) and decided that birth control was definitely immoral -- INCLUDING natural family planning -- because it was an interference into God's Divine Will.

she ended up with 2 of her 4 kids being unplanned and unwanted, and now is dealing with serious depression because she "never wanted to be a stay at home mom!" (she was in tears over this just before she had her 4th.)

i'm not saying any other person who believes b/c to be immoral would do anything like this... but... just something to think about.

i very much oppose those who say that abortion should be illegal... then push for abstinence-only education. that's not going to help anything. people need to be educated, and they need access to counseling, support, and services which allow them to keep control of their fertility.
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#18 of 50 Old 05-04-2004, 10:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by klothos
i very much oppose those who say that abortion should be illegal...
Why is the idea of making abortion illeagal so out of the question? We have laws protecting our freedoms. Why should the unborn left with no protection? In '93 Poland made abortion illeagal and yet none of the dire predictions came true. In fact, not only did abortion rate dropped to 1214 from 180,000, but maternal deaths declined by 30% and miscarrages by 18,000 and infant deaths by over 40%. (These figure were complied by 3 seperate federal agencies)
Quote:
Originally Posted by klothos
then push for abstinence-only education. that's not going to help anything. people need to be educated, and they need access to counseling, support, and services which allow them to keep control of their fertility.
Your right! People do need to be educated. And educated with the truth not some extreme propaganda that is funded and organized by the very people making millions in profit from abortion.
IMO when you put aside the morality of abortion and look at the physical and mental destruction it has left on women and society in general, it's not worth the cost.

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#19 of 50 Old 05-04-2004, 02:40 PM
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First off - A reminder to keep this thread civil and respectful. No name calling, inflammatory comments etc.

Secondly - I am moving this to Fertility, as it is not Activism.

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#20 of 50 Old 05-04-2004, 06:15 PM
 
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have you ever wondered why most doctors dont teach women about Fertility Awarness Method? its because there is no money to be made. they are suppose to get everyone on some kind of medication.

If the USA educated everyone properly about pregancy, there would be no need for abortion. The fact is that most women who have abortions do it out of selfishness, and that is sad. When i was 13 i got pulled into a tent at the local fair that was going on. they showed me a film of an abortion. From that point on I knew that i would never do that if i was to become pregant.

If you are going to be sexualy active, then you need to prepare yourself. you just dont run off into battle with out armor? it IS very important to empower with the proper education about fertility. I remember in junior high kids having sex. They dont know anything, and my parents sure did not help me out. I did not learn about FAM until i was 24.

whats a solution? start at home. educate your children about pregancy, and responsibility for their actions. lets not leave it up to racist groups like planned parenthood to tell the youth what sexual responsibility is.
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#21 of 50 Old 05-04-2004, 06:23 PM
 
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I agree with aminah, at least with regard to educating our children about sex and pregnancy, etc. but respectfully ask, why do you consider Planned Parenthood racist? Just curious.
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#22 of 50 Old 05-04-2004, 06:42 PM
 
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I am kind of in a weird middle on this subject. I am pro-choice but anti-abortion. I do believe that abstinance is perferable. There is so many other things that you can do that are sexually pleasing without having intercourse. I do believe that we need to be responsible adults and if pregnant there are two choices that are far more acceptable. I don't believe that abortion should be used as a form of birth control.
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#23 of 50 Old 05-04-2004, 09:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadic_foolz
Why is the idea of making abortion illeagal so out of the question?
because it will only lead back down the road that women fought so hard to get off of in the first place. our rights as women will be squished just so our children can have rights. this is already happening.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadic_foolz
Your right! People do need to be educated. And educated with the truth not some extreme propaganda...
so... you're saying that we need to do away with all the pro-life, mostly-religious based propaganda as well?


Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadic_foolz
IMO when you put aside the morality of abortion and look at the physical and mental destruction it has left on women and society in general, it's not worth the cost.
1) not everyone believes that abortion is immoral.
2) there is not sufficient evidence that it has left any "physical and mental destruction" on "women and society in general." there is actually quite a lot that stands as proof to the contrary.
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#24 of 50 Old 05-05-2004, 01:09 PM
 
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If one feels that b/c is immoral, how does it make sense for abortion to be an option? I'm assuming that the reasoning behind the b/c opposition is because one of it's functions is preventing implantation. That being the case, I would have to agree that FAM NFP and abstaining during fertile times would be the only option that makes sense.

FAM is possible while BFing to a degree and you would really need to be on top of it (no pun intended :LOL) Also follow the rules of LAM closely too. I did this succesfully for 22 months. We don't use barrier methods at all although I'm NOT morally against them, just don't like em So for added assurance you could do that too.

Being very anti-abortion, I do feel that if we *choose* to perform the act in which life may be created than we must clearly be responsible to handle that fact if it arises. Conception is ALWAYS a possiblity with sex, protected or not.Sex is a choice not a right and we have to be willing to deal with it's outcome either way. Married or not it's still a choice and and babies come from it, so we have to be prepared to raise them or offer them to someone who will.

This thread has taken lots of turns, I'm responding to the original post

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#25 of 50 Old 05-06-2004, 10:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by alie
I agree with aminah, at least with regard to educating our children about sex and pregnancy, etc. but respectfully ask, why do you consider Planned Parenthood racist? Just curious.
I have been doing some research latley about PP and the founder Margaret Sanger.
Check out this interesting article. The Negro Project:Margaret Sangers EUGENIC plan for Black Americans

Also check out this site. scroll down about half way for all the PP info. The Greatest Greed On Earth
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#26 of 50 Old 05-06-2004, 02:13 PM
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Aminah,



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#27 of 50 Old 05-06-2004, 09:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klothos
because it will only lead back down the road that women fought so hard to get off of in the first place. our rights as women will be squished just so our children can have rights. this is already happening.

so... you're saying that we need to do away with all the pro-life, mostly-religious based propaganda as well?

1) not everyone believes that abortion is immoral.
2) there is not sufficient evidence that it has left any "physical and mental destruction" on "women and society in general." there is actually quite a lot that stands as proof to the contrary.
Abortion is not a right. It is a horribly violent act against women and children. There is nothing more unnatural than ripping the life out of a woman and calling it progress.
I realize not everyone believes abortion to be immoral that's why I said "put aside the morality of abortion..." It does no use to argue the immorality of abortion with someone that does not share your same values, therefore this should be argued on a scientific level. The public should be educated with the facts, how different forms of abortion are performed, their effects on the human body including post abortion depression. And the effects on the baby. Contrary to what most people want to believe an aborted fetus does feel pain, and that has been proven.
There are countless women suffering from post abortion syndrome. Our community even has a section in a cemetary devoted to women suffering from PAS and gives them a place to grieve. If you are uncomfortable with the mostly-religious based propaganda then get rid of it. Like I said above if religon is not part of a persons morals then it serves no purpose. What I was referring to is the large infiltration in our schools and media by mostly Planned Parenthood who stand to gain from this influence. By the way 2002 was a record year for them. Not only did they make $36 million in profit alone, 227,385 children were killed in utero. Total income was $766.6 million and $254.4 million was taxpayer's money.
As a society we have lost our respect for life. That is reflected in the crime stats following Roe vs. Wade.
Anyway, we could go round and round over this as many people have done already. I'm stepping back now as I don't have the time to run in circles.

Anita
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#28 of 50 Old 05-07-2004, 09:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnMarie
No, and I just added to my post. I mean if someone doesn't want to use birth control but they don't want children either then they should abstain or be willing to care for a child should they get pregnant. No birth control is 100%, I realize that. If an adult knows this and still has sex then I think they should still be willing to take care of the child should they become pregnant, or give the baby up for adoption.
This just begs the question: Irresponsible sex is OK as long as you're willing to give your baby away? I know that might sound extreme but if you follow the logic through.. thats what you're saying.

I am of the opinion that every woman must act in ways appropriate to her belief system. These might include Natural Planning, birth control, abortion, adoption, or keeping and caring for a planned or unplanned child. Whatever her decision, a woman must be prepared to bear the consequences.

All of the above choices apply to marriage. Make your choice, and live accordingly.

Just my humble opinion..
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#29 of 50 Old 05-08-2004, 01:14 AM
 
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Abortion is not a right. It is a horribly violent act against women and children.... The public should be educated with the facts, how different forms of abortion are performed, their effects on the human body including post abortion depression
contrary to what you may want to believe, abortion *is* a woman's right, and i for one am willing to fight to keep it that way.

it is *not* a "horribly violent act against women and children" ~ if it were, there would be laws against it, and the millions of women who have had abortions would also be fighting to make it illegal... they're not, for a good reason.

i agree that the public needs to be educated with the facts ~ and not just on this but on all aspects of contraception. but the way you present it makes it seem like if people knew "the facts" they'd never choose abortion. that's not the case. many women know exactly how abortion is performed, and still choose to have one and still work to keep them safe and legal.

post abortion depression is *usually* related to the drop in hormones immediately following an abortion; i personally think full counseling should be readily available to women who have abortions and need to deal with the emotional after effects. but it is wrong to assume that the majority of women having abortions are going to suffer immeasurably as a result of the abortion; most women who have them actually feel a tremendous amount of relief and a renewed confidence in themselves. the minority of women who feel depressed or regretful afterward are just that -- the minority -- and most of them feel that way because they didn't think through all of their options, and/or they felt pressured to have the abortion. the pro-life community refusing to acknowledge this won't make it any less true.

some interesting points are being raised in this thread ~ Irresponsible sex is OK as long as you're willing to give your baby away? that's a good question. i don't think anyone is saying irresponsible sex is ok (i wouldn't advocate irresponsible sex at all ~ personally i see HIV being a much greater motivator to protect oneself than pregnancy, but hey, maybe that's just me...)

and

Quote:
If the USA educated everyone properly about pregancy, there would be no need for abortion
to which i must disagree wholeheartedly. there will always be instances of rape, molestation, and other sexual abuse which lead women to choose not to continue on with a pregnancy. even fully educated women still find themselves in situations where either they have no control, or they make a poor choice. there will always be date rape. there will always be times when things get a little too hot and people's willpower goes out. there will always be pressure from husbands within a marriage ~ a great majority of the abortions which were performed during the 1940's and 50's were on married women who simply did not have the resources to deal with another child, yet still submit to their husbands. this still happens today: women within a relationship (especially within a marriage, where intercourse is "customary") are pressured to have sex, even when they don't want children. and as has already been brought up in the thread -- contraception fails. also, statistically, women are less likely to report sexual abuse if it happens within a marriage. even barring the issue of rape or being pressured, it's naive to think that women who don't want children will always be able to successfully say "no" when they're aroused and ready to go. i do think everyone needs to take responsibility for their actions, and for some women, this does mean having an abortion, rather than trying to place a child in an adoptive home or attempting to care for a child they never wanted and never planned for.

no woman should have to follow through with a pregnancy and bear a child that is completely unwanted. just being pregnant marks a woman's body forever, and birth can scar a woman for life. if a woman chooses not to go down that road, that should be her choice. and there are already enough homeless children in the world today (and i don't mean children living on the streets, i also mean the children in foster care who just get moved around their whole lives because nobody adopts them). even if children are placed with adoptive parents, there's no guarantee they'll be well cared for.

and, one final point, is that some women who do want their children and love them still opt for abortion when they see that something is seriously wrong with the developing child. no amount of education will ever change the fact that some babies have severe enough birth defects to warrant this.
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#30 of 50 Old 05-08-2004, 02:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by klothos
it is *not* a "horribly violent act against women and children" ~ if it were, there would be laws against it, and the millions of women who have had abortions would also be fighting to make it illegal... they're not, for a good reason.
Circumcision is a violent act against children but there aren't laws against it (unless you're a female of course : ) and the millions of men who have had it done aren't fighting to make it illegal...just some of them...same goes for abortion.

Just because something is legal doesn't make it right.
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