any radical feminists on MDC? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#121 of 281 Old 08-10-2009, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
princesstutu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: the bay area, baby!
Posts: 1,771
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Welcome! I'm glad to see more interest in this thread, although I don't post often on MDC, I do come around.

MittensKittens, maybe someone can order it for you and mail it to you? You could paypal the money or something? A relative or someone in another country or something?

I would offer, but I'm in the process of moving to San Francisco. I'm looking forward to seeing what the activist scene is like there these days.

Yes, yes.  I'm fabulous. loveeyes.gif  Moving on...

princesstutu is offline  
#122 of 281 Old 08-26-2009, 09:24 AM
 
ursusarctos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,498
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by amitymama View Post
Have any of you read "My Mother Wears Combat Boots: A parenting guide for the rest of us" by Jessica Mills? She's a punk musician/anarchist/radfem and it was refreshing to read a parenting guide by someone who discusses the issues that matter to me. I highly recommend it.
I flipped through it when I saw it in the bookstore! It looked very good. I <3 the birth/parenting section at my local bookstore (ok, actually the largest and best bookstore in Finland, but still...). Even though the mainstream birth and parenting culture is still rather "conservative" here this bookstore consistently stocks books on natural birth and childrearing

Quote:
Originally Posted by transformed View Post
so my husband and I were having a discussion last night about how our fathers are calm, cool and collected and our mothers are crazy as loons. () I was trying to articulate that it was how society wants us to view women but I really didnt have much to ride on. I couldn't articulate myself at.all. I didnt even really know what I was talking about - I just had a feeling that he was wrong. (Even though I think these women are crazy often.)

Anyone have any info? I am looking to explore this topic further. perhaps a book?

I think one of the hardest thins about branching out and learning about feminism, and women is that I, myself am still inherently brainwashed and that is a lot to contend with. 28 years of it. but I can see myself grow in spurts.
Transformed, I've been thinking about this a lot lately, especially after I read your post. When I was growing up and especially as a teenager I was used to thinking of my mom as this crazy, unstable, nagging unpleasant person who drove my dad to be absent, irresponsible, keep his personal life from her. As I've gotten older I've gotten to understand my mom more, and now I've started to see how much my dad's behavior ("normal" for a male in our society) actually drove her to be how she is ("crazy" - obsessive about cleanliness, morally black-and-white, overly protective, "overly" enthusiastic about holidays, family reunions, etc., somewhat "nagging"). I see more and more how my dad refused to put energy into making a family and keeping up a household, even though he did work long hours to support us. I see how his actions drove my mom to "crazy" behavior which he then used as a justification for not respecting her or participating in life with her as a true partner. I see how my mom saw this as a normal relationship dynamic due to her conditioning as a girl and young woman and how my dad saw it as normal due to his conditioning.
My mom also tried to live up to a standard of "housewife and mother" that is impossible to attain alone (and men, husbands, are not supposed to help a woman be a good housewife but rather battle her efforts the whole time). When one doesn't attain the impossible housewife standard, one is vilified by society for being a bad woman, and when one does attain it, one is vilified for being "crazy" (obsessive about cleanliness and morality, uptight, scourge of "more relaxed" men and children everywhere). It's like when women with large breasts are given advantages for being large-breasted, which encourages women to desire large breasts, and then when a woman gets breast implants everyone laughs at her for being so insecure and looking "ridiculous".
It's so unfair: women are given the role of "keeper of morals" (upkeeper of social mores and duties), conditioned to the duty from very young, and then they are accused by men and women who have rebelled against that conditioning of being "uptight". Even people my age, university guys in their mid 20s, complain about their female partners making them come home from partying earlier, eat vegetables, not ride unsafe motorcycles, use hand sanitizer, stop smoking, exercise, have nice dinner parties, go to bed early, pick up their underwear, be "nice" - see a pattern? And yet they choose to be with the type of woman who finds such things as the above extremely important, having almost a moral quality, and they complain about their women's "restrictions" in a way that lets you know that they actually want and like their women's "uptight" behavior. So the woman gets complained about, the man gets to feel righteous, the woman gets to feel righteous, and there is no true communication or trust. Women like me, who do my utmost not to take on the role of moral lifestyle police, get to hear their friends complain, with utmost sincerity, about how uncivilized and wrongheaded their male partners are for not picking up their underwear or not stopping before that one last beer or not wanting to clean the house on saturdays - and while I want to validate my friends as people with real concerns, I hate the fact that they have been socialized to consider those things to be almost as important as the fact that they love their partners and their partners love them. And I also hate that men have been socialized to consider such things completely trivial. So instead of women communicating to men that, when they live with someone, they would really like it if both parties could be neat and pick up their own dirty clothes, or share the cleaning equally, and men respecting that for the small, reasonable, personal-responsibility issue it is, or women communicating to men that when they pick up their underwear it shows that they care and makes them feel loved and men accepting and respecting that, we have women getting enraged at men leaving their underwear on the floor and men completely disregarding that rage because they think a messy floor is trivial.
I'm rambling here, am I making any sense?

Me treehugger.gif and DH caffix.gif and sweet baby DD heartbeat.gif born 08/2011.

ursusarctos is offline  
#123 of 281 Old 08-26-2009, 10:35 AM
 
MittensKittens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 3,058
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have been hanging around mainstream Serbian parenting forums recently, and they are full of weird, fascinating comments. What is your take on a woman saying "I can't really expect my husband to be in the delivery room with me, can I? I mean, I know that's the moment when I first hold my newborn is magical for me, but us women can't really expect men to also be able to love a bloody, objectively ugly newborn, can we?"

Everyone agreed!!!

I am just hoping that my son will grow up to be a normal man.

I'm Olivia. I blog about physiological childbirth, homebirth, and unassisted homebirth!
MittensKittens is offline  
#124 of 281 Old 08-26-2009, 10:41 AM
 
greenmamapagan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The Southern Hemisphere
Posts: 721
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Wow Mittens! Most men here would be devestated to be kept out of the room their child was born in.

grateful Mama to DD May '06 and DS May '09
greenmamapagan is offline  
#125 of 281 Old 08-26-2009, 10:57 AM
 
Hazelnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,349
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Of course it makes sense! Women can't win. I never quite understood the paradox, but it seems obvious. You are vilified for not doing what is expected, but also put down for fulfilling that particular woman's "role," regardless of what it is. I think so much of how male partners act contributes to it as well, though they are left off the hook mostly.

I feel it in my own home already. I am always telling my dh that he has to help teach our kids to clean up too, to touch on just the cleaning topic. I have three boys who are very young, and I often feel like we're already on the path toward what I want to avoid.

I feel like what I'm doing could be seen as petty, but hello! Who the heck else is going to do what I'm doing? It all falls on me. Of course I'm gonna mini freak out at messes. I'm primarily the one who is expected to deal with them, and they get worse, not better. I'd be an idiot to be lax and let it snowball into disasters. And yet if I run around obsessing over it...I get to feel petty.
Hazelnut is offline  
#126 of 281 Old 08-26-2009, 11:00 AM
 
Hazelnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,349
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Of course it makes sense! Women can't win. I never quite understood the paradox, but it seems obvious. You are vilified for not doing what is expected, but also put down for fulfilling that particular woman's "role," regardless of what it is. I think so much of how male partners act contributes to it as well, though they are left off the hook mostly.

I feel it in my own home already with my kids. I am always telling my dh that he has to help teach our kids to clean up too, to touch on just the cleaning topic. I have three boys who are very young, and I often feel like we're already on the path toward what I want to avoid. I clean up after them. I try to have them learn to clean up after themselves, but dh doesn't really. So guess what that makes me?

I feel like what I'm doing could be seen as petty, but hello! Who the heck else is going to do what I'm doing? It all falls on me. Of course I'm gonna mini freak out at messes. I'm primarily the one who is expected to deal with them, and they get worse, not better. I'd be an idiot to be lax and let it snowball into disasters. And yet if I run around obsessing over it...I get to feel petty. We've been seeing a therapist to help deal with my oldest's difficult behavior, and he was talking about how when one parent is laxer (usually the father) it usually results in the other parent (usually the mother) being even stricter to then deal with the consequential behavioral fall out. It often takes two.

I think this is very true:
I see how his actions drove my mom to "crazy" behavior which he then used as a justification for not respecting her or participating in life with her as a true partner.

My husband is not really old school at all and will clean, cooks, watches kids, etc. and I still see certain dynamics creeping in.
Hazelnut is offline  
#127 of 281 Old 08-26-2009, 12:25 PM
 
ursusarctos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,498
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazelnut View Post
I feel like what I'm doing could be seen as petty, but hello! Who the heck else is going to do what I'm doing? It all falls on me. Of course I'm gonna mini freak out at messes. I'm primarily the one who is expected to deal with them, and they get worse, not better. I'd be an idiot to be lax and let it snowball into disasters. And yet if I run around obsessing over it...I get to feel petty.
Yes. This. I see now how this happened to my mom. When I thought of her as nagging and uptight about chores, she was just trying to get a little help cleaning up a house that we *all* messed up. Since none of us liked cleaning, and my dad wouldn't clean given the choice, we saw my mom as this crazy woman who insisted on us cleaning, like it was her thing or something, and if she just wouldn't be so uptight then everything would be fine. I'm so sad about that now. She must have felt so alone. I also think that my parents' backwards relationship conditioning from the 60s didn't allow them to see that this was the actual situation, so there was just resentment and misunderstanding from all sides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazelnut View Post
My husband is not really old school at all and will clean, cooks, watches kids, etc. and I still see certain dynamics creeping in.
Uh huh. My own relationship with a not-at-all-old-school man is exactly what has led to me understanding my mother so much better than I did before. Again with women being saddled with the "lifestyle police" role - girls are taught to "see" dirt, boys aren't (this was a big one in my childhood, I remember - because boys are "naturally" dirty and untidy so why teach them to clean and pick up?). So who sees that an apartment is dirty and needs cleaning? The woman. Since the man doesn't see it, she is forced to ask for his help in cleaning if she doesn't want to do it herself, which, when the request is repeated (which it will be because the man continues to be passive about mess), can often become "nagging" or can be interpreted as nagging by the man, who has been trained to think that cleaning is unnecessary and to be avoided unless someone (mother/wife figure) makes you. So when the man continually avoids cleaning the woman gets frustrated and will overreact to things that she would have been more reasonable about had the man just done it himself without her asking. I remember my mother being distraught over having to ask my dad for the gazillionth time to wash dishes or something. I didn't understand her rage at having to ask. Now I do.
Men are overwhelmingly not taught to take care of themselves, let alone others, nor to take responsibility for the upkeep of shared spaces. No wonder married men do so much better psychologically than unmarried men. It's a crying shame, for the girls who have to take on the burden of responsibility for everyone's wellbeing from such a young age, and for the boys who are not taught that caring for themselves and others improves everyone's quality of life and so end up with major handicaps when living alone as adults and later in relationships.

Me treehugger.gif and DH caffix.gif and sweet baby DD heartbeat.gif born 08/2011.

ursusarctos is offline  
#128 of 281 Old 08-27-2009, 12:32 PM
 
freestylemama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 504
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hi there! I'm here! I'm not totally sure where I fit in on the feminist spectrum- probably somewhere between second and third wave. Anyway, I'm definitely a feminist.

Are any of you also struggling with raising a super girly girl? My LO loves having her nails painted and wearing pink tutus and all of that stuff. She's also very tough and daring and athletic. So far, my MO has been to just let her lead and support whatever. We've avoided the Disney Princess stuff so far, but I'm not sure how much longer this will be possible.

I want her to feel free to express herself how she wants to, but I don't want her to get sucked into the consumerist "girls and supposed to do and buy ____" trap.

I'm also not very girly, so a lot of this is kind of weird for me. I don't wear makeup or get too into my hair, so this is pretty different.

She's two fwiw. How have some of you veteran feminist mamas dealt with your super sparkly girly girls?

Healthcare is a human right!
freestylemama is offline  
#129 of 281 Old 08-28-2009, 02:18 PM
 
Tattooed Hand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Berlin
Posts: 1,084
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hi everyone!

I just wanted to share some recent experiences and challenges that I have been facing since I got pregnant and see what people think and if they've had similar challenges.

First off, I'm a PhD student who is finishing up her dissertation. My adviser is a feminist and feminist scholar. She has two children. When I told her I was pregnant, her response was to say that now I had a firm deadline and she put my on a pretty rigorous completion schedule. I wasn't able to keep up with it, especially since we came up with it when I was 8 weeks pregnant and I was nauseaous, exhausted, emotional and headachy well into my 14th week. I told her I was not feeling well ahead of time and then when I went into her office, she told me that I "looked fine" and she expected me "to look much worse." As if she didn't believe me. Then she told me that she only had trouble with the smell of baked goods when she was in first trimester. (ALL food made me want to gag).

During this deadline creating meeting she also advised me to sign up for daycare right away so that a slot would be available by the time the baby was 3 months old. I told her that I didn't want to put such baby in daycare and that the places she recommended accept fulltime babies (8:30-5:30) and that I wanted to breastfeed. She said that she put both her kids in that daycare full time from when they were 3 months old and they are just fine. "How else can you teach full time?"

While I respect her choices, I really felt strange, like she was part of the larger institutional system that was penalizing me because my body was acting out of script with the presumed (male) academic body that policies and progress are based on. Because I fell behind with my deadline, I was forced to pay an additional semester of tuition instead of being given a leave of absence based on a medical exemption. (Long story, details boring, but I wrangled long and hard and I have no recourse.) But I felt like my adviser had no room in her feminist professional views other than to expect me to behave like a man. I should just produce at the same rate and adopt parenting practices that allow me to function like a man in a professional setting. Instead, I am only teaching part time in an adjunct position and not applying for jobs this year because at interview and application times I will be either trying to complete my diss before the baby comes, heavily pregnant and/or with a newborn that I don't want to leave to fly across the country for all day conferences/campus visits. I'm happly to take it easy for a couple of years and have this laid back schedule that allows me to breastfeed and keep my baby out of daycare until it's a year old (though we might get some part time help to come to the house.) Then, the plan is that when I get a tenure track job, to have my husband be the primary parent with the less demanding job (or no job for a while).

Speaking of which, the second topic is the challenge to the relationship. My husband is a feminist (in practice and in study). But this pregnancy has really underlined the physical differences between us alot. Everything from certain physical limitations I face to different feelings we have about the birth are really strange for us.

I'd love to hear what you guys think. Sorry if this has been covered in the thread, I only read 3 pages of the 7...

mama to Rassa, born 12/9/09
Tattooed Hand is offline  
#130 of 281 Old 08-28-2009, 05:28 PM
 
ursusarctos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,498
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by freestylemama View Post
She's two fwiw. How have some of you veteran feminist mamas dealt with your super sparkly girly girls?
Well I don't have any kids yet but I was a super sparkly girly girl when I was little pink was my favorite color, cinderella was my favorite disney movie, and I actually refused to wear pants at all until I was around 10, only skirts. Fwiw I currently don't wear a bra or shave regularly and have never worn everyday makeup. I'm very far from a girly girl in my behavior and pastimes - I guess I just sort of grew out of it gradually. I would say don't worry about it, as she gets older and you expose her to feminist values she will pick those up. There's nothing wrong with little girls liking frilly girly things, just as long as they aren't badgered into it by rigid gender expectations, which it sounds like your daughter isn't.

Tattooed Hand, I'm sorry to hear about your situation. It does sound like your adviser is expecting you to pretty much deny your physical reality in order to pursue an academic career in the "normal" way, that is, like a man with no family. Which is wrong and unfair imo - she's missing a big part of feminism if she can't see how the system totally neglects the needs of mothers and children and therefore won't cut you any slack. It's wrong that the "standard" of human being in our society is (unattached) man and women are expected to conform to that standard if they want to "succeed". There needs to be more maternity/paternity leave available and respected.

Me treehugger.gif and DH caffix.gif and sweet baby DD heartbeat.gif born 08/2011.

ursusarctos is offline  
#131 of 281 Old 09-04-2009, 05:52 AM
 
TwinsTwicePlusTwo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Oklahoma, driving my mini-bus
Posts: 432
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hi, ladies! I just came back to MDC. So glad to see this thread still hanging around on the first page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freestylemama View Post
Hi there! I'm here! I'm not totally sure where I fit in on the feminist spectrum- probably somewhere between second and third wave. Anyway, I'm definitely a feminist.

Are any of you also struggling with raising a super girly girl? My LO loves having her nails painted and wearing pink tutus and all of that stuff. She's also very tough and daring and athletic. So far, my MO has been to just let her lead and support whatever. We've avoided the Disney Princess stuff so far, but I'm not sure how much longer this will be possible.

I want her to feel free to express herself how she wants to, but I don't want her to get sucked into the consumerist "girls and supposed to do and buy ____" trap.

I'm also not very girly, so a lot of this is kind of weird for me. I don't wear makeup or get too into my hair, so this is pretty different.

She's two fwiw. How have some of you veteran feminist mamas dealt with your super sparkly girly girls?
Ugh. My youngest daughter is girly to the extreme. I admit that I have a hard time handling it. There seems to be nothing for her and I to connect over. We don't enjoy any of the same activities, nor is she interested in hearing about the issues I care about like my two older girls are. She thinks all the volunteer work and activism I do is "boring". All she wants to do is talk with her friends, watch movies, and go shopping. I don't know how to make her care about less trivial issues and it has created a real rift between us.

Sorry. That turned into a rant about my daughter. None of it was meant to apply to your daughter, lol. My oldest went through a 'girly' phase when she was little, but now she's become her own person, not a tomboy or a girly-girl, just Beth. I'm very proud of her.

My little twin boys like girly stuff too, lol. Sparkles and frilly clothes. I have pictures of them playing dress-up that ought to totally horrify them when they're teenagers.

Quote:
But I felt like my adviser had no room in her feminist professional views other than to expect me to behave like a man.
This is so common, among feminists and people in general. I feel it's less a matter of expecting women to act like 'men', and more a matter that people of both genders in professional careers are expected to put their work ahead of their families. There's a profound lack of paternity leave and accommodations for working fathers, just as there's a lack of maternity leave and accommodations for working mothers. Society seems to think children should come second. It's difficult to fathom why this is, since without children there would soon be no more society, but there's a real prejudice against children at work here.

Tanya ~~ mother to: Beth, 12 -- Cali & Trent, 9 -- Melanie, 8 -- Jesse & Davin, 5 -- Baby Shae 9/1/2009
TwinsTwicePlusTwo is offline  
#132 of 281 Old 09-04-2009, 12:48 PM
 
minkajane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 5,282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I am very much enjoying this thread! I've been finding myself to be more and more staunchly feminist the older I get (I'm 26, but I've been thinking this way since I was 16 or so). My main cause is birth and breastfeeding. Women are abused in birth, just flat-out abused. And they are THANKFUL for it! That's the part that gets to me. They've been so trained and conditioned to think of birth as this horrible thing, that it's so painful they couldn't possibly be strong enough to handle it without drugs, and that they should just be a good girl and do what the doctor tells them to do. Then when iatrogenic problems crop up and the doctor "saves" them or the baby, they're so grateful to be saved from their faulty bodies.

Then comes the breastfeeding. They are expected to not let the child interfere with their independence and continue the same lives they had before children. They have to feed the baby when the parents decide it's time, not when the baby is hungry. It's no wonder so many women think they don't have enough milk!

When women talk about their births, it's so hard to keep my mouth shut when they go on and on about the wonderful epidural and how great the birth was, when they had an elective induction, pit, pushed on their backs, and had a huge episiotomy. I don't want to take away from the joy of their birth, but I would so love to be able to help people realize that this is NOT NORMAL and that birth could be so much more. I feel like I'm helping perpetuate the myths surrounding birth and breastfeeding if I don't say something, but I realize that it wouldn't do anything but upset the woman if I did, so I bite my tongue. I try to dispel the myths before the situation arises by increasing awareness of informed consent and refusal, alternative birth methods, and the risks of intervening in the process. I know of a few people who have investigated birth because of me and at least two who are very adamant that they will be birthing all their babies at home. So at least I'm making some difference.

Mandy, )O(  Proud mommy of Taylor (1/6/05) jammin.gifand Abigail (4/21/11) slinggirl.gif
Loving wife of my gamer boy Michael. modifiedartist.gifBlog link in my profile! ribboncesarean.gif
minkajane is offline  
#133 of 281 Old 09-04-2009, 03:40 PM
 
delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 298
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by minkajane View Post
I am very much enjoying this thread! I've been finding myself to be more and more staunchly feminist the older I get (I'm 26, but I've been thinking this way since I was 16 or so). My main cause is birth and breastfeeding. Women are abused in birth, just flat-out abused. And they are THANKFUL for it! That's the part that gets to me. They've been so trained and conditioned to think of birth as this horrible thing, that it's so painful they couldn't possibly be strong enough to handle it without drugs, and that they should just be a good girl and do what the doctor tells them to do. Then when iatrogenic problems crop up and the doctor "saves" them or the baby, they're so grateful to be saved from their faulty bodies.

Then comes the breastfeeding. They are expected to not let the child interfere with their independence and continue the same lives they had before children. They have to feed the baby when the parents decide it's time, not when the baby is hungry. It's no wonder so many women think they don't have enough milk!

When women talk about their births, it's so hard to keep my mouth shut when they go on and on about the wonderful epidural and how great the birth was, when they had an elective induction, pit, pushed on their backs, and had a huge episiotomy. I don't want to take away from the joy of their birth, but I would so love to be able to help people realize that this is NOT NORMAL and that birth could be so much more. I feel like I'm helping perpetuate the myths surrounding birth and breastfeeding if I don't say something, but I realize that it wouldn't do anything but upset the woman if I did, so I bite my tongue. I try to dispel the myths before the situation arises by increasing awareness of informed consent and refusal, alternative birth methods, and the risks of intervening in the process. I know of a few people who have investigated birth because of me and at least two who are very adamant that they will be birthing all their babies at home. So at least I'm making some difference.

ther's this great author im reading, who talks a lot about what she calls the robotization of mothers, of the patriarchal mothers, handling all desicions and care of children to whomever wears a uniform. Her name is Casilda Rodriganez, and her books are free for dowload at her wbsite, but she is spanish! I highly recommend her.
delfin is offline  
#134 of 281 Old 09-05-2009, 01:42 AM
 
TwinsTwicePlusTwo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Oklahoma, driving my mini-bus
Posts: 432
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by minkajane View Post
I am very much enjoying this thread! I've been finding myself to be more and more staunchly feminist the older I get (I'm 26, but I've been thinking this way since I was 16 or so). My main cause is birth and breastfeeding. Women are abused in birth, just flat-out abused. And they are THANKFUL for it! That's the part that gets to me. They've been so trained and conditioned to think of birth as this horrible thing, that it's so painful they couldn't possibly be strong enough to handle it without drugs, and that they should just be a good girl and do what the doctor tells them to do. Then when iatrogenic problems crop up and the doctor "saves" them or the baby, they're so grateful to be saved from their faulty bodies.

Then comes the breastfeeding. They are expected to not let the child interfere with their independence and continue the same lives they had before children. They have to feed the baby when the parents decide it's time, not when the baby is hungry. It's no wonder so many women think they don't have enough milk!

When women talk about their births, it's so hard to keep my mouth shut when they go on and on about the wonderful epidural and how great the birth was, when they had an elective induction, pit, pushed on their backs, and had a huge episiotomy. I don't want to take away from the joy of their birth, but I would so love to be able to help people realize that this is NOT NORMAL and that birth could be so much more. I feel like I'm helping perpetuate the myths surrounding birth and breastfeeding if I don't say something, but I realize that it wouldn't do anything but upset the woman if I did, so I bite my tongue. I try to dispel the myths before the situation arises by increasing awareness of informed consent and refusal, alternative birth methods, and the risks of intervening in the process. I know of a few people who have investigated birth because of me and at least two who are very adamant that they will be birthing all their babies at home. So at least I'm making some difference.
Yes, everything you said is spot-on. I'm not good at keeping my mouth shut about birth, and have opened up some of my friends' minds to natural birthing practices. I've managed to make some enemies with my opinions too, but the positive effects are more than worthwhile.

I've had (and am continuing to have) too many of my own issues with breastfeeding to be much of a spokeswoman for that.

Tanya ~~ mother to: Beth, 12 -- Cali & Trent, 9 -- Melanie, 8 -- Jesse & Davin, 5 -- Baby Shae 9/1/2009
TwinsTwicePlusTwo is offline  
#135 of 281 Old 09-05-2009, 08:55 AM
 
chirp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southern New Jersey
Posts: 1,362
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
subbing while i catch up on such a great thread!!!

glad i found this!!

living light husband wife loving life two sons to birth for our light loving earth. :
chirp is offline  
#136 of 281 Old 09-05-2009, 11:59 AM
 
minkajane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 5,282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Another thing I see a lot that drives me absolutely batty is the difference in attitudes towards dating and sex. Men are always talking about sitting on the porch with a shotgun when their daughters go on dates. I was watching Click with Adam Sandler last night and there was a scene where his kids made some comment about sex (I forget what it was) and he said, "How do you even know about that? You shouldn't even be thinking about that for another ten to thirty years. Ten for you (gesturing towards his son), thirty for you (gesturing towards his daughter)." I hate the attitude that boys should be encouraged to date in their teens, but girls need to be locked up till they're 30.

Mandy, )O(  Proud mommy of Taylor (1/6/05) jammin.gifand Abigail (4/21/11) slinggirl.gif
Loving wife of my gamer boy Michael. modifiedartist.gifBlog link in my profile! ribboncesarean.gif
minkajane is offline  
#137 of 281 Old 09-13-2009, 02:56 PM
 
ursusarctos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,498
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by minkajane View Post
Another thing I see a lot that drives me absolutely batty is the difference in attitudes towards dating and sex. Men are always talking about sitting on the porch with a shotgun when their daughters go on dates. I was watching Click with Adam Sandler last night and there was a scene where his kids made some comment about sex (I forget what it was) and he said, "How do you even know about that? You shouldn't even be thinking about that for another ten to thirty years. Ten for you (gesturing towards his son), thirty for you (gesturing towards his daughter)." I hate the attitude that boys should be encouraged to date in their teens, but girls need to be locked up till they're 30.
YES! I had that same thought process when I watched that movie too! Argh, how annoying! That movie was chock full of irritating cultural standards being taken for granted though...

Me treehugger.gif and DH caffix.gif and sweet baby DD heartbeat.gif born 08/2011.

ursusarctos is offline  
#138 of 281 Old 09-13-2009, 03:12 PM
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Paradise
Posts: 8,134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Is it at all a feminist issue that I cannot get a job because I "dont have job experience" due to staying at home with my children? I am irked. It is a freaking lot of work to raise kids. : I suppose it would apply to a man also....I dunno...
transformed is offline  
#139 of 281 Old 09-14-2009, 09:25 AM
 
Teenytoona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,909
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by minkajane View Post
Another thing I see a lot that drives me absolutely batty is the difference in attitudes towards dating and sex. Men are always talking about sitting on the porch with a shotgun when their daughters go on dates. I was watching Click with Adam Sandler last night and there was a scene where his kids made some comment about sex (I forget what it was) and he said, "How do you even know about that? You shouldn't even be thinking about that for another ten to thirty years. Ten for you (gesturing towards his son), thirty for you (gesturing towards his daughter)." I hate the attitude that boys should be encouraged to date in their teens, but girls need to be locked up till they're 30.

Oh god, how I hate this attitude. Yes I see it alot. I also hear it here and there in casual conversation, esp at work (I work in a male-dominated profession).

Quote:
Originally Posted by transformed View Post
Is it at all a feminist issue that I cannot get a job because I "dont have job experience" due to staying at home with my children? I am irked. It is a freaking lot of work to raise kids. : I suppose it would apply to a man also....I dunno...

I think it is. If it were a man who stayed at home with the kids, I'm sure he'd be more "saintly" in others' eyes.

ITA on the birthing issue too.

I'm enjoying the discussion on "cool dads and neurotic moms" I quite agree there too.

Wish I was feeling more analytical and deep today, but just wanted to pop in with an "I hear you."

signature currently in transition
Teenytoona is offline  
#140 of 281 Old 09-14-2009, 10:34 AM
 
Hazelnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,349
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yeah one of the things I love about living in the suburbs is that it's not nearly as homogenous and conservative as I thought, AND AND I get more respect as a SAHM. Yeah I read the news, but for now as a SAHM and barely pt wahm, I have no desire to hear all the public discourse bashing mothers and SAHMs that I hear so often when I dip my foot in the topic online elsewhere, or when I am out with childless friends.

Also that "lock your daughter up" humor? It's not even funny anymore, if it ever was! So trite. I think if a comedian put a spin on it more often, it would be original.
Hazelnut is offline  
#141 of 281 Old 09-14-2009, 10:43 AM
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Paradise
Posts: 8,134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I was listening to an interview on the radio this morning (from July when the Warped Tour was here) and the DJ said "So, what do you think about all the chick bands on the tour? Do you think that was deliberate? "

"Oh yeah, just luck..."

:

transformed is offline  
#142 of 281 Old 09-17-2009, 06:07 AM
 
simplespirit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 424
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
subbing...

good witch
simplespirit is offline  
#143 of 281 Old 09-17-2009, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
princesstutu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: the bay area, baby!
Posts: 1,771
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by transformed View Post
Is it at all a feminist issue that I cannot get a job because I "dont have job experience" due to staying at home with my children? I am irked. It is a freaking lot of work to raise kids. : I suppose it would apply to a man also....I dunno...
Definitely a feminist issue! I've started listing the work I did as a SAHM as volunteer work.

Yes, yes.  I'm fabulous. loveeyes.gif  Moving on...

princesstutu is offline  
#144 of 281 Old 09-17-2009, 07:50 PM
 
basje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bay Area, Ca
Posts: 370
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Subbing

Organic eating, cloth diapering, no vaxing, cosleeping, breastfeeding mean machine.
basje is offline  
#145 of 281 Old 09-19-2009, 12:55 AM
 
greenmamapagan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The Southern Hemisphere
Posts: 721
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Gald to see this thread is still alive FAK so can't catch-up. Have you seen this:
http://mothersforwomenslib.com/2009/...ist-parenting/

grateful Mama to DD May '06 and DS May '09
greenmamapagan is offline  
#146 of 281 Old 09-25-2009, 03:35 AM
 
oceane's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,577
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
hi everyone! I'm pleased to see this thread and hope to join the discussion. gotta go right now though.

hh2.gif

 

oceane is offline  
#147 of 281 Old 09-25-2009, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
princesstutu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: the bay area, baby!
Posts: 1,771
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think something that's kinda dangerous to the well-being of little girls is to negatively judge them for being "too girly". How can one be too much of a girl? If a girl likes stereotypically girl things (such as the color pink and sparkly stuff and being a princess), that's okay. Us making a big deal about it (even if only mentally) is tantamount to feminists claiming sahms set back the movement.

We are allowed to be however we want to be. Even if it falls within the realm of "stereotypically feminine". It's not my job or desire to redefine femininity. I am inherently feminine because I am female. And it's okay, no matter how I represent that.

Yes, yes.  I'm fabulous. loveeyes.gif  Moving on...

princesstutu is offline  
#148 of 281 Old 09-27-2009, 02:29 PM
 
ursusarctos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,498
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by princesstutu View Post
I think something that's kinda dangerous to the well-being of little girls is to negatively judge them for being "too girly". How can one be too much of a girl? If a girl likes stereotypically girl things (such as the color pink and sparkly stuff and being a princess), that's okay. Us making a big deal about it (even if only mentally) is tantamount to feminists claiming sahms set back the movement.

We are allowed to be however we want to be. Even if it falls within the realm of "stereotypically feminine". It's not my job or desire to redefine femininity. I am inherently feminine because I am female. And it's okay, no matter how I represent that.
ITA. There's only a problem when there is a prescribed, non-negotiable way to be feminine (or masculine for that matter). A girl being forced to wear skirts and pink for no reason other than that she is a girl (like my mom in the 60s) is something completely different from a little girl feeling happy and girly when she wears skirts and pink and therefore making those the center of her wardrobe (me as a child).

Me treehugger.gif and DH caffix.gif and sweet baby DD heartbeat.gif born 08/2011.

ursusarctos is offline  
#149 of 281 Old 09-27-2009, 04:52 PM
 
oceane's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,577
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by princesstutu View Post
I think something that's kinda dangerous to the well-being of little girls is to negatively judge them for being "too girly". How can one be too much of a girl? If a girl likes stereotypically girl things (such as the color pink and sparkly stuff and being a princess), that's okay. Us making a big deal about it (even if only mentally) is tantamount to feminists claiming sahms set back the movement.

We are allowed to be however we want to be. Even if it falls within the realm of "stereotypically feminine". It's not my job or desire to redefine femininity. I am inherently feminine because I am female. And it's okay, no matter how I represent that.
I agree. But I also think it's often difficult in this society to know when behavior or preferences are forced on girls/sahm/us because of gender stereotypes and societal expectations. but you're absolutely right, shaving my legs or wearing nail polish does not make me any less feminist in my opinion.

hh2.gif

 

oceane is offline  
#150 of 281 Old 10-26-2009, 12:26 AM
 
village idiot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,635
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by princesstutu View Post
I think something that's kinda dangerous to the well-being of little girls is to negatively judge them for being "too girly". How can one be too much of a girl? If a girl likes stereotypically girl things (such as the color pink and sparkly stuff and being a princess), that's okay. Us making a big deal about it (even if only mentally) is tantamount to feminists claiming sahms set back the movement.

We are allowed to be however we want to be. Even if it falls within the realm of "stereotypically feminine". It's not my job or desire to redefine femininity. I am inherently feminine because I am female. And it's okay, no matter how I represent that.
Yeah that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oceane View Post
I agree. But I also think it's often difficult in this society to know when behavior or preferences are forced on girls/sahm/us because of gender stereotypes and societal expectations. but you're absolutely right, shaving my legs or wearing nail polish does not make me any less feminist in my opinion.
And that too.
village idiot is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off