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#421 of 517 Old 06-21-2010, 05:14 PM
 
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My 7yo also hates talking on the phone... even to me (DH and he are driving down to NC right now) it just isn't natural to him I think.

The funny part is he is okay with sending text messages to DH or I from our phones... and loved peeking his head in during Skype calls while DH was in Iraq/Kuwait. But he wouldn't talk. Just wave and wander off. He would often tell me things to tell DH... but didn't like doing it himself.

DD however would sit on my lap and talk and joke around with DH while I sat there unable to get a word in edgewise lol.

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#422 of 517 Old 06-21-2010, 05:42 PM
 
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Also does anyone have any first hand info about the L&D of either Walter reed or bethesda naval hospital? I would like to get settled in to the better of the two assuming that i am allowed to go it either.
Do you know where you'll be living? My cousin had her baby at Andrews AFB 4 years ago. No first hand knowledge other than it was old and empty. Like in a run down way.

I'm interested in your decision because I'm thinking that we may end up there around the time I'm ready for no. 2.


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#423 of 517 Old 06-21-2010, 08:11 PM
 
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Glad to here the pregnancy is progressing good tabitha! I go in today for geneic counseling session and tomorrow for my first real OB appointment at Madigan, had the intake last week. I'm 9w0d and feeling great. The intake appointment was annoying, they didn't seem to understand that there was anything differntvin the planning or nutrition for a twin gestation, glad I have good books to tell me where they are being dumb!

ETA of and we got our 30 day deferral of the pcs to DC so we finally have the orders we want and will be driving across country some time in mid august!

Does anyone have experience getting hooked in with a OB at a MTF before you move? Since I'm going to be moving exactly when I will be needing my anatomy u/s I want to make sure that I can call ahead and schedule it so that it happens at the proper timeframe. I'm going to be hooking up with local birth centers but will continue fill shadow care at the MTF

Also does anyone have any first hand info about the L&D of either Walter reed or bethesda naval hospital? I would like to get settled in to the better of the two assuming that i am allowed to go it either.
Hi Adorkable: I had a similar experience with my intake appointment. The nurse knew a whole lot less than I did about high risk pregnancy, and basically told me to hold my questions for the OB. The little book you are given there is pretty useless as well, unless you have done no research whatsoever. I was able to get hooked in with one OB through some timely intervention by my counselor in the FAME clinic; however, I think you can request to see the same person each time you go in if you find a doctor you like. Are you assigned to the COB group (complicated OB)? If so, I recommend Dr. Magulsson. He is very gentle and thorough.

I'm so excited that this pregnancy is going well for you! Please PM me if you have any questions or just want to chat.

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#424 of 517 Old 06-21-2010, 08:31 PM
 
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Oh, that reminds me of my OB at Tripler. He was a great high risk OB. Dr. Socher. He agreed to be my regular OB through the continuity care program. He had no problem at all with me having a VBAC even if I had to be induced. He said he really like that I was well-informed and knew what I wanted. He left HI soon after I had ds2, so about 6 years ago. I don't know where he is now but if you see his name at either of those places, I definitely recommend asking for him.

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#425 of 517 Old 06-21-2010, 10:34 PM
 
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I just talked to my dh. He said when he checks in with his new unit he will get a battery command. That's good for him. For me, it means I will be a CO's wife (although, not THE CO's wife). Ack! I don't know how to be a CO's wife. Maybe I should reread that article I posted a while back. I'm not even sure what a battery command is. I'm such a bad military wife.

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#426 of 517 Old 06-21-2010, 11:42 PM
 
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Do you know where you'll be living? My cousin had her baby at Andrews AFB 4 years ago. No first hand knowledge other than it was old and empty. Like in a run down way.

I'm interested in your decision because I'm thinking that we may end up there around the time I'm ready for no. 2.

not sure exactly where we will live yet, but DH will be working at walter reed and then around Sept 2011 they will be closing WR and moving over and kinda taking over Bethesda (i know the name is changing , i have no idea what else is. I'll let you know what i find once i get there this Sept and after i birth in Jan.

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Hi Adorkable: I had a similar experience with my intake appointment. The nurse knew a whole lot less than I did about high risk pregnancy, and basically told me to hold my questions for the OB. The little book you are given there is pretty useless as well, unless you have done no research whatsoever. I was able to get hooked in with one OB through some timely intervention by my counselor in the FAME clinic; however, I think you can request to see the same person each time you go in if you find a doctor you like. Are you assigned to the COB group (complicated OB)? If so, I recommend Dr. Magulsson. He is very gentle and thorough.

I'm so excited that this pregnancy is going well for you! Please PM me if you have any questions or just want to chat.
oh that little book is such a joke! not to mention that i kept having to reminder her that what she was telling me was not correct "Because i was have twins, remember?" i was told originaly that i would clearly be put with COB, but i have no idea if i am, she did not even know at the start that i was with twins or that i had spent 3 years upstairs at the RE's, i have Dr Bunch tomorrow, i asked for a midwife that i had had a good time with many years ago, but she was way more booked out and i needed to get in before a out of town trip. im not to worried who i get since i am changing over to one of the DC MTFs, i wonder if what i do here matters much?

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Oh, that reminds me of my OB at Tripler. He was a great high risk OB. Dr. Socher. He agreed to be my regular OB through the continuity care program. He had no problem at all with me having a VBAC even if I had to be induced. He said he really like that I was well-informed and knew what I wanted. He left HI soon after I had ds2, so about 6 years ago. I don't know where he is now but if you see his name at either of those places, I definitely recommend asking for him.
i will keep his name in my notes, thanks for the heads up!

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#427 of 517 Old 06-22-2010, 09:52 AM
 
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Ok, I just realized why my previous question about the dual care was stupid, I think. I don't automatically assume a twin pg is high risk, and since I've been through IVF, I don't automatically consider an IVF pg high risk, either. I know some docs and REs do even though there's no scientific data that shows that, in general, a pg achieved through infertility treatments is any more high risk than a spontaneous pg unless the reason for the infertility makes the pg high risk.

I'm still a little confused, though. Are you planning to do dual care and considering birthing in a birthing center
I've been wondering what's going on with WR. I've been hearing forever that it was going to be shut down but then I keep hearing about people going there. Guess it just takes forever.

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#428 of 517 Old 06-22-2010, 12:49 PM
 
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Sorry I forgot to reply to this one, I am doing dual care because I would prefer to be at a birth center and have a water birth, but I also understand that close monitoring and testing will give my the knowledge to be as powerful as I can be thru this all. And that I want to have gotten to know my back up team if I need them. I truely believe that pregnancy, even twins, is not a medical condition and I am a very healthy person.

Tricare prime does not cover birth centers from all the reading I have done only standard does, and since standard puts you at a disadvantage for getting MTF apoiments, it is a balancing act. Since I am due in Jan, I would be going thru two years of deductions and payments if I switched to standard and be spending a year with the hassles. So I'm thinking that if I get all my testing of any sort over at the MTF under prime, that I can probably pay out of pocket for the birth itself and it end up about the same as two calendar years of standard copays.

I've gone back and forth on this a few times, it's a hard one to balance. I'm open to any good advice. I'm guessing that any birth center that understands my set up will help me go get anything I can under the MTF ( like u/s and blood tests) and take the results so that they don't have to do it and charge me directly, they will of course make money from the birth itself.

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#429 of 517 Old 06-22-2010, 02:16 PM
 
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Hi! I'm Angie, and we are at Ft. Stewart. We are gearing up for deployment in a couple of weeks. DH is TDY for 3 weeks, and gets back Saturday then leaves about a week after that. In addition we are TTC in the week before he leaves!!

Anyone else at Stewart?

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#430 of 517 Old 06-22-2010, 03:15 PM
 
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Tricare prime does not cover birth centers from all the reading I have done only standard does, and since standard puts you at a disadvantage for getting MTF apoiments, it is a balancing act. Since I am due in Jan, I would be going thru two years of deductions and payments if I switched to standard and be spending a year with the hassles. So I'm thinking that if I get all my testing of any sort over at the MTF under prime, that I can probably pay out of pocket for the birth itself and it end up about the same as two calendar years of standard copays.

I've gone back and forth on this a few times, it's a hard one to balance. I'm open to any good advice. I'm guessing that any birth center that understands my set up will help me go get anything I can under the MTF ( like u/s and blood tests) and take the results so that they don't have to do it and charge me directly, they will of course make money from the birth itself.
Oh, ok. Yeah, I can see how that would be a hard thing to decide. I've always had Standard so losing MTF access was never an issue for me. I'm used to not having it. Although, in HI when I was pg with ds2 it wasn't a problem. Even with Standard, I had to get all my maternity care at a MTF and I didn't have trouble getting into the K Bay clinic or Tripler for regular appointments for me or my children. It's a lot different here at Camp Lejeune.

You can file a request for outside care stating that the MTF can't provide you the care you want/need. It's up to the doc's at the MTF whether or not to approve it. I tried that at Tripler and was turned down because they said they could provide adequate care. I don't think they consider a non-medical birth environment a valid reason. It's worth a shot, though, because I've heard that, if the MTF is overbooked, they're more likely to grant approval for civilian care if you ask.

And, yeah, as long as the care providers at the birth center are recognized by TriCare they can give you orders/scripts for any tests and ultrasounds and such that you would need to take to the MTF. Regardless of which TC program you have, you will always have access to radiology, phlobotomy and the pharmacy.

Why would you have to be on Standard for two years? I thought that if you switched programs, you were only stuck for a year.

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#431 of 517 Old 06-22-2010, 04:45 PM
 
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Hi! I'm Angie, and we are at Ft. Stewart. We are gearing up for deployment in a couple of weeks.
sorry hun, went through it last year... complete with attempting to TTC before... then during R&R... then gave up when he came home so I wouldn't be pregnant at our wedding. Then decided at the last minute to let fate decide for us. I ended up getting married the day before I hit the third tri!

Good luck... and you have a baby to keep your mind busy while he is gone!

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#432 of 517 Old 06-22-2010, 05:04 PM
 
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sorry hun, went through it last year... complete with attempting to TTC before... then during R&R... then gave up when he came home so I wouldn't be pregnant at our wedding. Then decided at the last minute to let fate decide for us. I ended up getting married the day before I hit the third tri!

Good luck... and you have a baby to keep your mind busy while he is gone!
Thanks! Depending on when AF starts, it could happen before he leaves. If not, we will try on R&R. I will stay busy even if we don't conceive before though! I've got three little ones 3 and under. Hopefully they will make time fly.

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#433 of 517 Old 06-22-2010, 06:08 PM
 
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Adorkable- the only way I'd consider Prime for a pregnancy was if I had twins. Of course I'd try to go vaginal in a center, like I did with my first two, but frankly, the chances of a hospital birth are much higher, even a vaginal hospital birth, and the out-of-pocket expenses are high.

However, I prefer standard for my kids, but again, I would not want a premature child on standard. Standard is good if you're more or less healthy. Twins just have that higher risk that would make me want Prime.

So, I'm new to the army but I've already had a baby with them, and I say, prime for twins. That's just an opinion. If all goes well, it won't make any difference, and if you need extra assistance, you'll be glad you have prime, and you can ALWAYS switch out to standard.

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#434 of 517 Old 06-22-2010, 06:47 PM
 
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Adorkable- the only way I'd consider Prime for a pregnancy was if I had twins. Of course I'd try to go vaginal in a center, like I did with my first two, but frankly, the chances of a hospital birth are much higher, even a vaginal hospital birth, and the out-of-pocket expenses are high.

However, I prefer standard for my kids, but again, I would not want a premature child on standard. Standard is good if you're more or less healthy. Twins just have that higher risk that would make me want Prime.
Except that it's possible to have a hospital birth at a MTF with Standard. I did. It depends a lot on how each particular MTF treats things. With ds3 my plan was to go to the MTF here if I had any complications that required a hospital birth. I seriously doubt that they'd transfer to another hospital if I was in the middle of a complicated labor. Of course, I don't know that for sure. Maybe that's something you can call the MTF anonymously to ask about. Also, remember that there's the $1000 catastrophic cap so if you had an emergency transfer to the closest hospital, that's the most you'd have to pay. But if you were already paying deductibles and copays for civilian care, you'd probably have already met or at least come very close to that cap by the time you had the babies.

From the stats I've read, the chances of a vaginal birth of both twins in a hospital are pretty slim, especially if you're already considered high risk for other reasons.

Here's something I found on Babycenter. I'm not sure if it's the best place for info but I just did a quick and dirty search.

Quote:
Many women carrying twins are able to have a vaginal birth, although around six out of 10 twin births are by caesarean section.
(my bolding)

Vaginal Birth of Twins

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#435 of 517 Old 06-22-2010, 07:29 PM
 
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first of all a request girls, PLEASE STOP TAKING ABOUT ME BEING HIGH RISK, C SECTIONS AND PROBLEMS pleeese

i'm a big believer in positive thinking and i dont like the focus, i know it is the normal thing to do, i just request that we drop that part. thanks! twin are special care, they are not by themselves high risk of anything. i actually just talked my way out of the COB section today and back to the Nurse midwives, yipeee
twins are both cesarean too often. not because the need to be, but because doctors are lazy and scare moms into what is easiest for them and their policies. there are some times it can be indicated, but those are way way lower than what is done.

-i mentions 2 years on standard because the cap on cost is a calender year thing and my babies will be born in Jan, so between that and prenatal care i would pay two years worth of those fees

-since my MTF is either Bethesda or Walter reed, i would probably have a very hard time getting send into the civilian world, they both are major OB and L&D locations

-the babies would automatically be on prime even if i was on standard, when you switch it is for just you, the moment of their birth and any care they need from then on is on their own accounts

-one of the reasons that i am doing shadow care is so that i dont have to fuss if the birth center is tricare approved, if they want a test, im sure i can just go to a MTF OB and get them to "want" the same test. the only trick my be to get them to share the results, but i'm good at getting my hands on my records

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#436 of 517 Old 06-22-2010, 07:42 PM
 
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first of all a request girls, PLEASE STOP TAKING ABOUT ME BEING HIGH RISK, C SECTIONS AND PROBLEMS pleeese

i'm a big believer in positive thinking and i dont like the focus, i know it is the normal thing to do, i just request that we drop that part. thanks! twin are special care, they are not by themselves high risk of anything. i actually just talked my way out of the COB section today and back to the Nurse midwives, yipeee
twins are both cesarean too often. not because the need to be, but because doctors are lazy and scare moms into what is easiest for them and their policies. there are some times it can be indicated, but those are way way lower than what is done.
I was not trying to say that twins are high risk or need c-sections. I know that's not the case. I was trying to make the point that the chances of having a c-section are higher with an OB and a hospital birth rather than the other way around.

That's wonderful that you were able to get yourself in with the midwives.

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-i mentions 2 years on standard because the cap on cost is a calender year thing and my babies will be born in Jan, so between that and prenatal care i would pay two years worth of those fees
I thought the cap on costs was a fiscal year thing. That's how mine works. It's starts over in October.

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-the babies would automatically be on prime even if i was on standard, when you switch it is for just you, the moment of their birth and any care they need from then on is on their own
Only for the first 2-3 months. Then you have to enroll them in Prime or it automatically switches to Standard regardless of which plan you are on.

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#437 of 517 Old 06-22-2010, 08:33 PM
 
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I always forget about the POS option for Prime. You do have the option of getting care with anyone covered by TC even with Prime. It costs more, though. I think the deductible is $300 per person and the cost share/copays are 50%. None of the cost for using that service apply to your catastrophic cap.

Prime POS Option

That's from the the Humana military healthcare services website. I think that's the North Region so would cover NC and MD/DC/VA areas.

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#438 of 517 Old 06-23-2010, 03:55 AM
 
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thanks for mentioning that POS option, i had forgotten about that, i will certainly check and see if any of the birth centers i am looking at are tricare providers at all, if so i can use POS to cut down my cost.

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#439 of 517 Old 06-23-2010, 08:23 AM
 
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first of all a request girls, PLEASE STOP TAKING ABOUT ME BEING HIGH RISK, C SECTIONS AND PROBLEMS pleeese

i'm a big believer in positive thinking and i dont like the focus, i know it is the normal thing to do, i just request that we drop that part. thanks! twin are special care, they are not by themselves high risk of anything. i actually just talked my way out of the COB section today and back to the Nurse midwives, yipeee
twins are both cesarean too often. not because the need to be, but because doctors are lazy and scare moms into what is easiest for them and their policies. there are some times it can be indicated, but those are way way lower than what is done.
I'm so sorry I mentioned it. I know a number of people who had twins vaginally, and I'll leave it at that.

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#440 of 517 Old 06-23-2010, 11:09 AM
 
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thanks for mentioning that POS option, i had forgotten about that, i will certainly check and see if any of the birth centers i am looking at are tricare providers at all, if so i can use POS to cut down my cost.
TC will not cover both MTF and civilian care at the same time. So, if you are going to a MTF now, you can't simultaneously use the POS option with a civilian provider.

When I did dual care with an OB clinic and my CPM, I was told that if TC found out I was paying my CPM out-of-pocket, they would require me to pay them back for all the OB charges. Something about if you choose to pay for medical care yourself with one provider, your insurance company is not obligated to pay for the same care with another provider.

The POS option would definitely cut down on your costs if you don't have a referral and choose to go solely with a civilian provider. And you can probably still use the MTF labs, pharmacy, radiology, etc.

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#441 of 517 Old 06-23-2010, 02:20 PM
 
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So many things to take into account, so many little loop holes and pit falls! It's amazing that anyone ever figures out tricare or insurance in general.

And as for the mini freak out I lobbed at you ladies for the high risk comment, sorry I reacted so harsh. Can i blame pregnancy? Actually I had just had the most horrible talk with a friend and a guy even about my lack of morning sickness. His wife was recently pregnant and he has apparently become a freaking expert!
When I shared that I don't have a drop of morning sickness andmetformin on the baby related to fetal 'hypoglycemia' have "decided I won't" he flatly said, " well that won't last long, I'm sure your be sick any day now" REALLY! He actually said that shit to me.

I'm 9 1/2 weeks pregnant with healthy twins and show no signs of getting morning sick at all and have worked really hard on a diet that supports me and my babies really well. As far as I'm concerned my attitude and believing that I am going to be great is part of that health plan. So I'm getting kinda sick of spending my energy defending my head from all the nasayers.

I really apciate the ladies on MDC and the military mammas thread has been a wonderful place for me, specially when military life can be so unraveling. Sorry I snapped at you all. It is not the way I like to talk to people.

partners.gif 2twins.gif  So what if I don't fit cleanly into a defined parenting style, my kids don't fit into a personality archetype either!

 
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#442 of 517 Old 06-23-2010, 03:31 PM
 
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So many things to take into account, so many little loop holes and pit falls! It's amazing that anyone ever figures out tricare or insurance in general.
It is very confusing. It's even worse when you call the customer service and get the wrong answers. I think they must only be trained on the basics of Prime. They don't seem to know much about Standard or Extra or anything that isn't routine. That's why I always look at the actual handbook first.

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Originally Posted by •Adorkable• View Post
And as for the mini freak out I lobbed at you ladies for the high risk comment, sorry I reacted so harsh. Can i blame pregnancy? Actually I had just had the most horrible talk with a friend and a guy even about my lack of morning sickness. His wife was recently pregnant and he has apparently become a freaking expert!
When I shared that I don't have a drop of morning sickness andmetformin on the baby related to fetal 'hypoglycemia' have "decided I won't" he flatly said, " well that won't last long, I'm sure your be sick any day now" REALLY! He actually said that shit to me.

I'm 9 1/2 weeks pregnant with healthy twins and show no signs of getting morning sick at all and have worked really hard on a diet that supports me and my babies really well. As far as I'm concerned my attitude and believing that I am going to be great is part of that health plan. So I'm getting kinda sick of spending my energy defending my head from all the nasayers.

I really apciate the ladies on MDC and the military mammas thread has been a wonderful place for me, specially when military life can be so unraveling. Sorry I snapped at you all. It is not the way I like to talk to people.
Don't worry about it. I just didn't want to be misunderstood. Even when pg with a singleton with absolutely no signs of any issues, people seem to talk about all the possible (even if only remotely probable) negatives about being pg. Just like you never hear the positive birth stories, only the horror stories, which are probably grossly exaggerated. And if anyone tries to say anything positive about pg or labor and birth, it is always shot down. It is very annoying.

I absolutely love being pg and get so excited about being in labor and giving birth. Most people look at me like I have 2 heads when I say things like that. It's really very sad. Most women don't realize how disempowering their attitudes are. I could go on and on. It makes me so frustrated.

knit.gifSAHM to 3 boys and 1 man; 22 jammin.gif, 9REPlaySkateboard04HL.gif, 5 FIREdevil.gifand now 1 year oldtoddler.gif!

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#443 of 517 Old 06-23-2010, 04:47 PM
 
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Oh, no worries about me. I actually wondered when I wrote it if it wasn't too much... I guess it was. LOL. You're pregnant, you have the right to freak out at friends.

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
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#444 of 517 Old 06-23-2010, 10:27 PM
 
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So we received a phone call today that DH's ship out date was moved forward to July 6th instead of July 17th. Lame! Now we have no chance to induce before he leaves.

I guess I am ok with all this. I mean, not like I can do anything to change it. Now, I'm just definitely going to start making plans and doing things to help set up for birthing without him here.

On the positive side, him leaving on July 6th gives me and ds some time alone before everything gets flipped upside down with the new baby. Hopefully, I can just focus on his needs during the transition. I feel so guilty for all these changes that are going to be dumped on him in a matter of weeks

Kourtney, happily married to my soldier and raising ds 7/08 .... dd 7/10..... and ds 11/11

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#445 of 517 Old 06-23-2010, 11:15 PM
 
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MommaKitten, so sorry you are going thru so much at the same time, i do think it is a good point to stagger the changes for your ds a little bit. wishing you and your family a smooth birth and deployment

partners.gif 2twins.gif  So what if I don't fit cleanly into a defined parenting style, my kids don't fit into a personality archetype either!

 
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#446 of 517 Old 06-24-2010, 02:35 PM
 
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Oh, MommaKitten, your poor boy but it's not for you to feel guilty about it. There's nothing you could do.

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
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#447 of 517 Old 06-27-2010, 11:36 AM
 
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Hey ladies. Any of you at or near Camp Lejeune? We will be there in a few months and I am looking for some like minded people. We are coming off recruiting duty so all of my current like minded friends are "civilians". I have some really great friends I will be meeting up with again at Lejeune, but none that share my parenting choices. I am a little nervous too when it comes to finding another good family doctor and chiro.
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#448 of 517 Old 06-27-2010, 11:57 AM
 
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Hey ladies. Any of you at or near Camp Lejeune? We will be there in a few months and I am looking for some like minded people. We are coming off recruiting duty so all of my current like minded friends are "civilians". I have some really great friends I will be meeting up with again at Lejeune, but none that share my parenting choices. I am a little nervous too when it comes to finding another good family doctor and chiro.
My DH is stationed at Camp LeJeune... the kids and I just moved down here this week and I must say I love how friendly all of my neighbors are already!

In my town of 2500 no one came over to introduce themselves for months except the one guy who shared the duplex with me... here we have had two families already invite us over... one for a bbq in just a few hours so we can meet more people from around here!

As for Dr. and Chiro I am no help... Im planning this week on looking into family practitioners for my kids and myself... my pregnancy is being taken care of by a wonderful midwife down here!

Artist, photographer, stay-at-home-mom and Marine wife. Mom to 4; a boy and three little girls.
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#449 of 517 Old 06-27-2010, 04:34 PM
 
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MaerynPearl- Are you living in base housing? and congrats on the new baby. I currently have a 2.5 yr old and a 2 month old. Will miss my midwife here a lot.


Movingmomma-. I will definitely be at a LLL meeting once we move there.

Marinewife- Thank you for the FB page. I am sure we will be on standard. We are currently on Prime Remote right now and see civilian docs because there is no base even close to where we live. Can you see civilian docs on Standard if you live by a base, or do you need the infamous referral first?

So excited to finally get to NC and get settled in for a bit.
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#450 of 517 Old 06-27-2010, 04:52 PM
 
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Hi Ladies,

I haven't been following but I just read the entire post. Whew! This is certainly an active group.

I am thinking about joining my husband at Ft. Bliss in El Paso, TX. I am wondering if anyone can give me an idea of how long it takes to set up a move and if they move privately owned vehicles. I was on the move.mil site and I'm a bit confused.

Also, if anyone has broken a lease early, how did you go around breaking the news to your landlord. My lease is up in Dec but we will be trying to move in August.

Thanks

"Breastfeeding is a robust, biologically stable activity so central to our evolutionary identity that it names the class of animals to which we belong" (Breastfeeding Atlas, Third Edition)
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