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Thread: She said, "please stop, you're scaring me..". *SAD UPDATE post 25* Reply to Thread
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01-23-2008 06:00 PM
titania8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frootloop View Post
I hate to bump this back up, but I just wanted to thank you all for your suggestions and to let you know that I'm taking them ALL to heart.

A few of you have messaged me giving me advice, as well.. again, thank you so much!! You've all got me thinking.. I'm coming up with even more questions for her.

Once I can get my head totally straight, meaning.. without blowing up in a complete rage at her, I have every intention to give it another shot. I'm not about to go through re-mailing information again, but I plan on some heart to heart convos over the phone using much of the info you all have PM'd me with. I may eventually get hung up on but, I still have to try.

At this point, she isn't angry with me. My cousin has a heart, she really does.. I know that it doesn't seem that way, but it's true.

I really think that she truly believes that by doing this, she is 1) honoring her religion, and 2) honoring her husband. For her, there is no other path to take. She's not doing this with the thoughts of it's "unclean", "infectious", or "teasing".. I do know that. And she's genuinely concerned about his pain.

Ugh.. if I could only bypass her "this is out of my hands, I have to let them do this" spiel and get through to HER, I might have a chance.
I wish SO much that I could get her onto MDC, but they don't have internet access

Please don't think that I'm trying to make excuses for her, I swear I'm not. I'm still beyond furious with her.. but I have a renewed hope this afternoon. Maybe it's just because I know deep down that I will never be able to forgive her for it, and the thought of not having her in my life just breaks my heart... I don't know.
01-23-2008 04:37 PM
Frootloop I hate to bump this back up, but I just wanted to thank you all for your suggestions and to let you know that I'm taking them ALL to heart.

A few of you have messaged me giving me advice, as well.. again, thank you so much!! You've all got me thinking.. I'm coming up with even more questions for her.

Once I can get my head totally straight, meaning.. without blowing up in a complete rage at her, I have every intention to give it another shot. I'm not about to go through re-mailing information again, but I plan on some heart to heart convos over the phone using much of the info you all have PM'd me with. I may eventually get hung up on but, I still have to try.

At this point, she isn't angry with me. My cousin has a heart, she really does.. I know that it doesn't seem that way, but it's true.

I really think that she truly believes that by doing this, she is 1) honoring her religion, and 2) honoring her husband. For her, there is no other path to take. She's not doing this with the thoughts of it's "unclean", "infectious", or "teasing".. I do know that. And she's genuinely concerned about his pain.

Ugh.. if I could only bypass her "this is out of my hands, I have to let them do this" spiel and get through to HER, I might have a chance.
I wish SO much that I could get her onto MDC, but they don't have internet access

Please don't think that I'm trying to make excuses for her, I swear I'm not. I'm still beyond furious with her.. but I have a renewed hope this afternoon. Maybe it's just because I know deep down that I will never be able to forgive her for it, and the thought of not having her in my life just breaks my heart... I don't know.
01-23-2008 01:52 AM
AntoninBeGonin Dee, I'm sorry that after you went through all that work you weren't able to get through to your cousin. I agree with one of the PP's--this isn't lost yet! I've also PM'd you about some responses you can give her.

Smilies requested by The Kid : :
01-23-2008 12:51 AM
Yulia_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daisyuk View Post
I hate to say this, but a "friend" who lies to you, over something that is really important to you, AND throws something so important to you and which you personally made for her with such care out with the rubbish, really isn't much of a friend at all, it sounds exceptionally one sided.

Of course you feel hurt, anyone would feel hurt if they'd handmade a gift for someone and they then turned around and wrote a letter to say they'd just thrown it away, because they didn't want to look at it.

Liars make very bad friends, if I were you I'd drop her and go find some nice people to be friends with, who you can trust to tell you the truth.
:
01-22-2008 09:03 PM
mama_at_home I sent you a PM because we can't touch on religion here.
01-22-2008 08:18 PM
Papai
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frootloop View Post
I couldn't help it.. I had to call her. I told her that I was very hurt that she lied to me. I told her that I didn't want to cut her out of my life, but she really really really hurt me by knowingly lying to me the way she did.



I also briefly told her about the only half-assed acceptable forms of pain relief.. and I HATED doing that. It was like I was giving her my permission or something. But I had to tell her, right?

She was bawling on the phone almost as hard I was. I told her that I still loved her and that I had to think for a while..
I think you did the right thing. You did the best you could.
01-22-2008 07:34 PM
tireesix Oooooooooooops.
01-22-2008 07:33 PM
tireesix Oh...............

You didn't fail, you did everything you could have possibly done. The person who failed was your friend who couldn't be bothered to read the info you took so much time to get together.

Whats that saying??? You can lead a horse to water..........
01-22-2008 07:33 PM
fruitful womb Have her read this. Don't tell her anything about it. She can't know what its about, only she has to find out for her self. This is just one more attempt. I know its hard. Please don't give up. Maybe a miracle will happen. Just maybe.
01-22-2008 07:33 PM
tireesix Oh...............

You didn't fail, you did everything you could have possibly done. The person who failed was your friend who couldn't be bothered to read the info you took so much time to get together.

Whats that saying??? You can lead a horse to water......
01-22-2008 07:33 PM
tireesix Oh...............

You didn't fail, you did everything you could have possibly done. The person who failed was your friend who couldn't be bothered to read the info you took so much time to get together.

Whats that saying??? You can lead a horse to water......
01-22-2008 07:32 PM
tireesix Oh...............

You didn't fail, you did everything you could have possibly done. The person who failed was your friend who couldn't be bothered to read the info you took so much time to get together.

Whats that saying??? You can lead a horse to water......
01-22-2008 07:18 PM
Frootloop pdx.mothernurture -

Thankyou, Jen..

I have been sitting here crying off and on for the last few hours. If I could get it out of my head, I could probably stop.. but I can't stop thinking about it!

It may not be, but I do feel like it's over.. but you're right. I don't know for sure that is. Maybe it's just my defeatist attitude I have right now talking, though.


MoonJelly and kidspiration -

I know that her husband is adamant over it.. that's where I thought I'd have the problem. Me convincing her and then her (and me) convincing him. But it never even got that far.

I KNOW that she knows it's wrong. Why else would she be agonizing over just opening the box? Because she KNEW what was inside. She knows deep down that it's wrong. She just didn't want to face it.

Hubby is circ'd, the first son is circ'd, and this one will be circ'd because, well...
I know that we can't get into religious discussions here, but, the religion thing is apparently THE main thing with her and her hubby (they are not Jewish, btw). In the packet of info that I sent her, there were multiple printouts regarding that aspect that an MDC member linked me to. All of it, tossed in the trash

I may try again once more.. but not for a while.

My INSANELY pro-circ brother and his girlfriend are also expecting a baby. I really hope that this one isn't a boy, too, or I just might lose it. There is no way whatsoever they would leave him intact
01-22-2008 06:54 PM
runes

she knows how very wrong it is. and she knows that you know that she knows. yet, she is still going to go through with it.

01-22-2008 06:48 PM
MoonJelly I have been through a very similar situation. Twice. It's very difficult and I know others on here have been through the same thing. It's a good place to come to vent about it though!

I am even going to attempt the intactivism again with my own brother and his soon-to-be wife. I am trying to now gather up the strength for the long battle ahead...

But anyway, I truly think that the absolute hardest thing for me to grasp is women who seem to be against circ but somehow cannot muster up the courage/energy/whatever to stop it from being done. I guess the whole male problem I don't totally get either, but I can guess I can grasp it in some way. They don't want to think that was done to them was wrong or that they are somehow not complete in some way. Yeah, I guess I can get that psychology on an objective level.

However, I fundamentally just DO NOT get women who can't stand up against it. How else can it be explained than they must have the belief that they are actually inferior to men?! Is any other possible explanation? Truly, I would love there to be one because that explanation makes me all kinds of angry and sad. I guess the only other reason could be that they want someone else to make decisions for them. That they want to somehow be excused from any sort of difficult situations and let someone else handle them--hide behind their husbands as it were.

But whatever it is, I have a VERY hard time getting over it. I just want to shake these women and say "wake up and stand up for yourself! If not for you, then do it for the rest of us."
01-22-2008 06:37 PM
pdx.mothernurture Her boy is still safe in her womb, intact; this isn't over yet. I can't help but wonder if you address the issue with her once more, even over the phone, open up a Bible and just read her the verses and just flat out tell her that if she does this you will not feel the same way about her as a person and you're not sure if you can maintain a friendship with *anyone* who would choose ignorance to avoid guilt or who would knowingly do something damaging and abusive to her child. Throwing away the information you sent wasn't just careless---it was negligent. Maybe if she realizes that it's not just your friendship but respect for her as a fellow civilized human being that's on the line it would cause her to reconsider.

I'm so sorry you're in this situation.

Jen
01-22-2008 06:21 PM
Frootloop Daisy - I know.. I know that I should just say goodbye to her, but if I totally write her off, I'd be down to only one friend, who also lives out of state (both are over 900 miles away from me). I wish I had the option to get out and make more, but because I've got some medical issues and other crap to deal with plus no job, I have zero social life. As far as friends go, outside of the internet, I have my DH, my best friend in another state, and her. That's it.
She's my family and other than a couple years, we've been extremely close since early childhood.

I had pretty much accepted that there was a chance that she would circ anyway.. I knew that was possible. I had gotten myself to the point that I would probably be able to work through it and keep our relationship. But LYING to me over something so important to me?
I'm just so unbelieveably hurt and I know it's going to take me a long while to get over this, if I ever do.


Smokering - No, he hasn't been born yet. She is due in early April. They're going to do it.. that I have no doubt.
Maybe by some miracle, the ultrasound tech was wrong and it's not a boy, afterall. It's probably silly to even think that, but...
01-22-2008 05:56 PM
Smokering

So... she hasn't actually circed her son yet? Or has she?
01-22-2008 05:46 PM
Daisyuk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frootloop View Post
Thanks so much for the hugs.. I really need them right now.

This was just my first REAL attempt at convincing someone not to circ. I poured my heart and soul into it and she just threw it all away without reading anything at all. And that baby boy will pay the consequences.

I KNOW how wrong it is, but I don't know if I can do this again. I'm the quiet, sort of shy, non-confrontational type. This is soooo why I usually keep my mouth shut and don't speak up. I feel so unbelieveably stupid and I don't even know why!!!

I just can't freaking believe she threw it all in the trash. It makes me want to hurl repeatedly.

Yet, I STILL LOVE HER!
I hate to say this, but a "friend" who lies to you, over something that is really important to you, AND throws something so important to you and which you personally made for her with such care out with the rubbish, really isn't much of a friend at all, it sounds exceptionally one sided.

Of course you feel hurt, anyone would feel hurt if they'd handmade a gift for someone and they then turned around and wrote a letter to say they'd just thrown it away, because they didn't want to look at it.

Liars make very bad friends, if I were you I'd drop her and go find some nice people to be friends with, who you can trust to tell you the truth.
01-22-2008 04:50 PM
Frootloop Thanks so much for the hugs.. I really need them right now.

This was just my first REAL attempt at convincing someone not to circ. I poured my heart and soul into it and she just threw it all away without reading anything at all. And that baby boy will pay the consequences.

I KNOW how wrong it is, but I don't know if I can do this again. I'm the quiet, sort of shy, non-confrontational type. This is soooo why I usually keep my mouth shut and don't speak up. I feel so unbelieveably stupid and I don't even know why!!!

I just can't freaking believe she threw it all in the trash. It makes me want to hurl repeatedly.

Yet, I STILL LOVE HER!
01-22-2008 04:25 PM
phdmama06 I'm so sorry to hear the update. You did the best you could, and just know that you are not a failure. She is the one who is failing her baby boy.
01-22-2008 04:20 PM
phatchristy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frootloop View Post

I failed. I failed miserably. I suck at this. :

I wish to God I didn't know how wrong this was.
You know, you didn't fail. She did...she failed her son in her role as his ultimate protector.
01-22-2008 04:16 PM
Frootloop I couldn't help it.. I had to call her. I told her that I was very hurt that she lied to me. I told her that I didn't want to cut her out of my life, but she really really really hurt me by knowingly lying to me the way she did.



I also briefly told her about the only half-assed acceptable forms of pain relief.. and I HATED doing that. It was like I was giving her my permission or something. But I had to tell her, right?

She was bawling on the phone almost as hard I was. I told her that I still loved her and that I had to think for a while..
01-22-2008 04:04 PM
ramlita You did your best. That's all we can do.
01-22-2008 03:46 PM
Frootloop I am so disgusted and hurt and pissed beyond words right now that I'm shaking and bawling my damn eyes out

She PROMISED me.. she freakin SWORE to me that she would read the information that I sent her. She "very quickly thumbed through it" and instantly threw everything away.. and THEN didn't even bother calling me to tell me she'd done so. She sent me a letter in the mail which I just got telling me all of this. She said in the letter that she knew she wasn't going to keep her promise.. that she knew it all along, but didn't have the "heart" to tell me. She begged ME and God to forgive for lying.

I know that we can't discuss religion in here, but that's ALL she talked about in the letter.. that was her reason. She's Christian and it's "God's will" and "God put it on her heart to do it".

She admitted that even opening the box filled her with anxiety.. That tells me that she KNOWS that it's wrong.

She also kept asking me to forgive her and that it's basically on me to keep the relationship going. We'd "grown apart" years ago and just gotten much closer again within the last couple of years. She's hoping that this is something we can just get over again.. that I'll forgive her. But it's all on ME to forgive..

I'm heartbroken. Totally heartbroken. Part of me wants to call her to scream at her. The other part wants me to let her know how hurt I am. And then another part wants to never speak to her again.

I absolutely poured my heart into this. With everything that I printed off, I read it first and wrote in my own little notes. I went at it from pretty much every aspect, INCLUDING religion. It cost a damn fortune to send it all.

WHY did she have to lie to me? That whole time, I thought I knew in my heart that I would be able to convince her.. that it would be HIM that would be the problem. It never even got that far.

I failed. I failed miserably. I suck at this. :

I wish to God I didn't know how wrong this was.
01-13-2008 04:45 PM
Fellow Traveler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frootloop View Post

...

Part of my struggle with this is.. if they DO go through with it, is circumcision, which is done to boys every day and they live through it (no, I am NOT trying to minimize it, but this is how my mind is working right now) worth severely harming a relationship over? My mind is telling me that it's NOT worth it, as though I'm being irrational.. but my heart says that I AM trivializing circumcision if I DO just accept it and go on like nothing ever happened.
Does that make any sense?
While I understand how devastating this situation can be, I would be inclined to suggest that you try and maintain the friendship. Perhaps it will change but you might consider the long play. I seem to recall that there was someone here who was recently in a similar situation that you were in only it had been a year or two ago (from when she made the post). In any event, like you, she tried and failed to prevent the circumcision of her friend's son. She gave them all the information and had the discussions but in the end they circumcised him. She went through a similar crises period but maintained a slightly more distant relationship. A year or two later she reported that she managed to save their second son because after their first experience the couple was more willing to listen. Had she terminated the friendship who knows what would have happened. Now she is there to objectively answer any questions that might arise which is great news for the second son. So the long and short of this is just because your message doesn't sink in the first time doesn't mean there won't be other opportunities and to cut someone off because they make this mistake, even after you present them the facts, puts their future boys at risk.

It may not be easy to maintain a close friendship after giving them all the information and watching them ignore it but it may be worth it in the long term.
01-13-2008 12:00 AM
Frootloop Thank you so much for the hugs and reassurance.. I appreciate it greatly.
I do know in my heart that I'm doing the right thing, but there's this irritating little voice in the back of my head telling me that, if I would just mind my own business, we wouldn't be having an issue now.

I'm still so new to this intactivism thing, that it's just so overwhelming. I'm usually not one to use my voice at all... I'm usually the quiet one who detests confrontation of any sort. But, this is just something that I feel too strongly about to keep my mouth shut - so, no worries there no matter if I succeed at this, or not. I'll keep trying with others.

Bottom line, I believe that what it's going to come down to changing HIS mind or her being able to stand up to him and refusing it. She is going to be so torn on this, I just know it. She's going to beat herself up over and over. I just pray that she has the mental strength to say "NO!".
I'm afraid of being the cause of marital problems between them. I truly do not want to cause her any pain.. but I know that this will.

I don't want to have ill feelings toward her and I know that this is a fear of hers as well. She's told me more than once that she doesn't want me to be angry with her or to cut her out of my life if they go through with it. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that I will be furious if they do it. I will cry for that baby boy.

Part of my struggle with this is.. if they DO go through with it, is circumcision, which is done to boys every day and they live through it (no, I am NOT trying to minimize it, but this is how my mind is working right now) worth severely harming a relationship over? My mind is telling me that it's NOT worth it, as though I'm being irrational.. but my heart says that I AM trivializing circumcision if I DO just accept it and go on like nothing ever happened.
Does that make any sense?
01-12-2008 11:19 PM
rmzbm Good luck, OP! Keep us updated. Very sad situation.
01-12-2008 11:01 PM
ramlita
01-12-2008 10:55 PM
Night_Nurse
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frootloop View Post

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease reassure me that I'm doing a good thing here.
You ARE doing a good thing!

Anytime any one of us speaks out to protect innocent babies it is a good thing!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frootloop View Post

What if I poured my heart into this and they decide to circumcise him anyway? What will it do to our relationship? Will I ever be able to look at her the same again? I honestly don't know.. and it scares the hell out of me.
I've been in your shoes. It may not work, especially since they circed the first baby. But at least you'll have tried. That's all you can do. DH & I were unsuccessful in saving one of the babies in our family. It hurt like hell. I remember crying in my kitchen because I knew what that poor baby was going to go through, even though his parents had been educated. You can lead a horse to water but... you know the rest.
It put a MAJOR strain on the relationship, so much that I choose not to have anything to do with them. But for me, those people were always negative people I tried to avoid anyway. For you, it sounds like the relationship is very positive.
To be honest, I don't know you but I suspect you won't be able to look at her the same if she circs and you'll most likely have a bunch of anger towards her. At least that's how I'd feel, and I bet many of us here would feel that anger. But that doesn't mean you have to end your relationship.
And HOPEFULLY, it will all work out and she won't circ.
Even if she does, I hope you won't be discouraged. I hope you'll still try to educate all the other people you know about the harm of RIC.
Even if your cousin makes the wrong decision, you've still done a very good thing. Please know that.
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