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  Topic Review (Newest First)
08-07-2008 01:24 PM
janasmama right, I was also under the impression that certain vax's that use live bacteria/viruses can infect other people within a certain time frame of the vax being administered. (?)
08-07-2008 01:14 PM
alegna
Quote:
Originally Posted by janasmama View Post
I was reading something to this effect in the hib & prevnar stickies in the vax forum. Basically the point was that even if the vax isn't the actual bacteria like Angela explains...that getting a vax can increase the chance of getting a different strain of bacteria for the disease that the vax doesn't cover. Thus, having the possibility of becoming infected with basically, the same disease one tried to vax for.
Prevnar and hib are a different story

they are actualy VERY effective at preventing the strains that they cover. Both infection and transmission. BUT nature abhors a vacuum. And when those specific strains of those specific bacteria are eliminated, other bacteria move in to fill the void.

-Angela
08-07-2008 01:11 PM
janasmama
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaidymama View Post
Earlier someone had talked about herd immunity, and it came up that with some vax's you still transmit the disease... Can someone clarify that for me? Are you saying that you could still be a carrier, not get sick, but transmit the illness to others?? I guess I'm wondering about the being a carrier part... thanks
I was reading something to this effect in the hib & prevnar stickies in the vax forum. Basically the point was that even if the vax isn't the actual bacteria like Angela explains...that getting a vax can increase the chance of getting a different strain of bacteria for the disease that the vax doesn't cover. Thus, having the possibility of becoming infected with basically, the same disease one tried to vax for.
08-07-2008 11:47 AM
alegna
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaidymama View Post
Earlier someone had talked about herd immunity, and it came up that with some vax's you still transmit the disease... Can someone clarify that for me? Are you saying that you could still be a carrier, not get sick, but transmit the illness to others?? I guess I'm wondering about the being a carrier part... thanks
Yes. A great example is the pertussis vaccine. The vaccine is against the TOXIN created by the bacteria, not the bacteria itself. So you can be vaccinated and still catch and transmit the BACTERIA that causes pertussis.

Does that help?

-Angela
08-07-2008 04:34 AM
jaidymama Earlier someone had talked about herd immunity, and it came up that with some vax's you still transmit the disease... Can someone clarify that for me? Are you saying that you could still be a carrier, not get sick, but transmit the illness to others?? I guess I'm wondering about the being a carrier part... thanks
08-07-2008 12:46 AM
alegna
Quote:
Originally Posted by firsttimemama View Post
I haven't caught up with this thread and I do intend to but I had a couple of questions I wanted to bring up. Please forgive me if they've already been discussed (I do intend to catch up!)
DS is 8 mo and we have not vaxed.
Here are my questions:

1) Does anyone know if not vaxing has any impact on your child's health insurance? Can they refuse to cover things or something like that because we don't vax? If our coverage lapsed or something could not being vaxed make him ineligible for new insurance or anything like that?

2) We have an extensive history of autoimmune disease on my mother's side (RA, MS, juvenile diabetes, thyroid, asthma, possible lupus, etc etc). I have AI thyroid and raynaud's syndrome. This history of AI disease is one of the big fears for me regarding vaxing. I wondered if anyone here had a similar family history and what your thoughts are on vaxing in light of it.

I think DH is leaning towards a selective delayed schedule, where I'm wondering if we should vax at all (particularly because of the AI history)

and if we do vax, I'm not sure when I want to start. 2? 3? I'm reading several books right now re: vax.

thanks for any thoughts.

1. No- they can't use it against you (well, group insurance- ie through a company can't. Individual can refuse you or drop you for ANY reason)

2. I have read some research linking vaxing and AI issues. It's been too long to give you specific pointers though, sorry! I think the strongest links are with MS.

-Angela
08-07-2008 12:40 AM
firsttimemama I haven't caught up with this thread and I do intend to but I had a couple of questions I wanted to bring up. Please forgive me if they've already been discussed (I do intend to catch up!)
DS is 8 mo and we have not vaxed.
Here are my questions:

1) Does anyone know if not vaxing has any impact on your child's health insurance? Can they refuse to cover things or something like that because we don't vax? If our coverage lapsed or something could not being vaxed make him ineligible for new insurance or anything like that?

2) We have an extensive history of autoimmune disease on my mother's side (RA, MS, juvenile diabetes, thyroid, asthma, possible lupus, etc etc). I have AI thyroid and raynaud's syndrome. This history of AI disease is one of the big fears for me regarding vaxing. I wondered if anyone here had a similar family history and what your thoughts are on vaxing in light of it.

I think DH is leaning towards a selective delayed schedule, where I'm wondering if we should vax at all (particularly because of the AI history)

and if we do vax, I'm not sure when I want to start. 2? 3? I'm reading several books right now re: vax.

thanks for any thoughts.
08-06-2008 11:54 PM
alegna
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virginia Mom View Post
I can't get over the guilt of vacs but we have such extenuating circumstances (DH travels extensively overseas to areas where stuff like Malaria is as common as breathing)........

What's a mom to do?
Is your dh vaxed? If so- then what are you concerned about him bringing home?

If not- why not vax him instead of the kids?

So much of what he might be exposed to (like malaria) doesn't have a vax available anyway.

-Angela
08-06-2008 11:32 PM
Virginia Mom Wow, I can't believe how many response........and I'm only done with the first few pages.

My son was fully vac up until 6 months....when my gut instint told me that the virus he kept getting after each shot (taht would last two months) just wasn't normal...........

I think the bottom line for me was that he was never the average sized baby......always less than 10% for weight and I always freaked out that the vacs are determined for average sized babies.........

(at 3 I've put him on my own vac schedule.......no chicken pox and he'll get MMR right before kindergarden ...maybe)

but with my daughter......who was much larger....I caved in at 7 months with just one shot..........and boy did her immune system shut down..........and she was pretty sick (even though the ped said it was not related......yeah right)..........thank God for our chiro who did a ton of 'stuff' on my princess

we'll wait till she's three to do our own schedule............

Here's a scary tidbit........a friend of mine in CA was telling me abut her good friend whose daughter almost died from the flu vaccine (we dont do flu)......she was in a children's hospital for months and will have perm. damage (learning disabilities, etc).......when she told me all of this I dug up my old papers from my ped about why we need to vac, etc........and at the very bottom in small print was some phone number (some govt agency) that you call ifyou have had adversve vac reactions......

long story short..........friend's friend called....it might take a few years......but her daughter might be entitled upwards of a few million dollars..........(the vac company gave her a lawyer that is taking care of all of the legal stuff for free)

I can't get over the guilt of vacs but we have such extenuating circumstances (DH travels extensively overseas to areas where stuff like Malaria is as common as breathing)........

What's a mom to do?
08-03-2008 10:20 PM
janasmama Here is one quote I found about what the Patriot Act does. Now remember, even Wikipedia's definition of what the Patriot Act is or isn't is a bad one at that....many have written to them about that fact and they have admitted that it needs rewriting and that it will be an ongoing effort. Hmmm.

Anyway, from http://www.disinfo.com/content/story.php?title=Help-Stop-Forced-Vaccination-Children

Quote:
The Patriot Act and other federal legislation add to the compulsory vaccine menace by allowing compulsory universal vaccination with undisclosed, unclassified and untested substances in the event of various ill-defined threats or supposed threats to public well being. Refusal will, according to the Patriot and BioShield I and II Acts, result in indefinite incarceration or "quarantine".
08-03-2008 10:02 PM
janasmama I'm having a hard time finding a website that refers to the actual code in the Patriot Act.

I learned about this and was very surprised when I watched a video called "Loose Change: The Final Cut" You can go to LooseChangeTheFinalCut.com and download the video for a small fee but it is very interesting. Worth the money. The video doesn't necessarily focus on vaccines but it does list freedoms that the Patriot Act took away from us since the cause of the Patriot Act was the tragic event of 9/11. In the video it will give you the section/code of the Patriot that states this about the vaccines then you can google that.

Basically through the Patriot Act we are deprived of our freedom to reject or use any exemptions for not vaccinating if the government deems it appropriate. Smallpox, I guess, is suppose to be the big vaccine in question here with the Patriot Act.

I linked a letter that basically talks about how this clause about vaccines is like nazism, it does give some information about what I'm talking about. You might be able to find more by following links in the site.

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...atriot_act.htm

Sorry for turning this into a political thing... though I guess vaccines is a political issue. But, like Awaken said, it scares me that the freedom to choose can be taken from us and we would have a much bigger fight then simply using religous or philosophical exemptions. I just don't know what I would do or say at that point. How do you really fight it.

As far as the peds saying there is no other option but to vax....the preschool I take my dd to said I don't even need a docs sig on the vax card, just my own. But I do have to get a health check and the peds o.k. for her to go to school.
08-03-2008 06:27 PM
Awaken
Quote:
Originally Posted by janasmama View Post
Actually it's my understanding that it is the law to vaccinate. It's just that there are exemptions. Even under the new patriot act we are suppose to submit to any vaccine that the government says we need....Can someone shed some light on this for me.
What?? I'd really like to know more about what the patriot act has to do with vaccinating. This is the first I've heard of it. I thought it was only mandated for school/camp entry but w/ exemptions. So far we have had zero problems or questions w/ the religious exemption for camps and schools but this scares me to hear it might be mandated in the patriot act.

When I first started questioning and began doing a delayed schedule w/ DS 1 (now thoroughly regret him having almost every shot!) I was told many times by Early Intervention and other programs that he HAD to be fully vaccinated for school, that only homeschoolers could opt out of vaxes.

Many of my friends have questioned the safety of vaccines, but have fully vaccinated b/c they have been told by their ped's they have no choice, otherwise their child will not ever be able to go to school. It's a shame, the mis-information, or the deliberate misleading of parents to fit doctors, drug companies, or the government's wishes.
08-02-2008 10:52 PM
queendom lady I'm S&D with the vax for my 1 yr old so far but seriously thinking of quitting them all. I've changed dr.s once already and will be changing again in oct once a very vax-free friendly dr comes to the area. I've had a horrible experience with the dtap already and you wouldn't believe how hard I've had to argue with people just to get them to acknowledge a problem.

Here, in VT, we have both religious and philosophical exemption so I think I'm covered. It's funny how many people come out of the woodwork that haven't been vaccinated once you start talking about it openly. My dd's two babysitters for example!

Am very appreciative for the conversation here. It was actually the first place where I was introduced to the notion of vax-free!
08-02-2008 08:31 PM
janasmama
Quote:
Originally Posted by janasmama View Post
Actually it's my understanding that it is the law to vaccinate. It's just that there are exemptions. Even under the new patriot act we are suppose to submit to any vaccine that the government says we need....Can someone shed some light on this for me.
Not that I care that it's the law and believe me, we do not submit to the government in all aspects

I'm just saying that it is sort of scary sometimes about what the law can make you do.
08-02-2008 08:06 PM
PassionateWriter
Quote:
Originally Posted by janasmama View Post
Actually it's my understanding that it is the law to vaccinate. It's just that there are exemptions. Even under the new patriot act we are suppose to submit to any vaccine that the government says we need....Can someone shed some light on this for me.

im sorry this just made me chuckle. i will not submit to any vaccine the govt. says we need..they can start hunting me down if they want to try that.

as far as teh "law", the vaccines are required for school entry but there are exemptions for that. its also another reason that many ppl consider home scholling to be so much better than simply submitting to the govt. control of our bodies. Thats not a primary reason for home schooling for most but it is certainly an issue that makes homeschooling so much more attractive.

i know some states require exemption forms to be filed for homeschoolers too but i dont think that is very common.
08-02-2008 04:57 PM
Fyrestorm
Quote:
Originally Posted by janasmama View Post
Actually it's my understanding that it is the law to vaccinate. It's just that there are exemptions. Even under the new patriot act we are suppose to submit to any vaccine that the government says we need....Can someone shed some light on this for me.
The patriot act gets a bit fuzzy on the vax issue..but it is not the law to vaccinate. It is mandated for school entry and there are exemptions for that, but it is not the 'LAW' in any state.
08-02-2008 04:52 PM
janasmama Actually it's my understanding that it is the law to vaccinate. It's just that there are exemptions. Even under the new patriot act we are suppose to submit to any vaccine that the government says we need....Can someone shed some light on this for me.
08-02-2008 03:33 PM
AutumnNoelle I vaccinated my first daughter until the age of two because I thought I had to. I thought it was the law to do so and I also thought they were a good thing.

My thinking started to change while, when I was pregnant with my second daughter, I was waiting in the waiting room for WIC and heard the nurse behind the counter (it's a dr's office too) say "did you know kids don't need vaccines to get into schools anymore? they don't really want you to know that..." A week or so later, my husband was on the internet looking at *strange facts* and we saw that formaldehyde was an ingredient in vaccines. That was enough for us! After that, I did hours and HOURS of research and decided not to get any more shots for the kids! My baby hasn't had any.

For a while I thought I should keep this information to myself. I got a little paranoid thinking, "well, if everybody stops vaccinating, then the government might try to make some sort of law where we HAVE to get vaccinated." I felt like I was going to burst though! I started making up fliers, ordered info cards from www.vaclib.org, made up a t-shirt with an anti-vaccine post card image on it and even created a myspace page to help spread the message about the dangers of vaccines. So far, I have over 1,200 friends. I have met so many people on there who are so thankful to have found my site and are thankful for what I'm doing. For those interested, it's www.myspace.com/parentsagainstvax
08-01-2008 12:21 AM
janasmama
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaidymama View Post
You know, all of these systems have been established to protect and care for people.
Are they really in place to protect and care for us or is it a form of sick socialization?
07-31-2008 11:45 PM
jaidymama I was thinking that the other day... about trusting what we're being told. I think we are taught to trust certain things in life, and really not everyone wants to, or has the time to, or even considers questioning when we're in the hands of people we trust to care for us. You know, all of these systems have been established to protect and care for people. I believe it's natural to trust the people we hire to care for us.

I'm sort of living on the flipside, now I'm questioning everything and finding it can be hard to not let it overwhelm me as I try to make sense of what is really real. And what I can do or how it fits in my life.
07-31-2008 09:13 PM
amnesiac I'm always interested to hear perspectives of those living in different conditions in all parts of the world. Reminds me of how great it is to have a global community here at MDC!

I think that it doesn't occur to the vast majority of parents to question many things about our culture. How do you suppose the idea of 'informed consent' relates to such questioning?

Quote:
informed consent is defined as: 1) The patient is informed about the processes contemplated by the physician as treatment, including whether the treatment is new or unusual. 2) The patient is informed of the risks and hazards of the treatment. 3) The patient is informed of the chances of recovery after treatment. 4) The patient is informed of the feasibility of alternative methods of treatment.
http://www.mothering.com/guest_edito...place/134.html
07-31-2008 07:40 PM
ernalala
Quote:
Originally Posted by janasmama View Post
ernalala - Don't be ashamed of vaxing...we all do what is right for us and according to the information that we have. It sounds like you have a much different conditions and experiences than most of us here. The important thing is to have the knowledge and make an informed decision, whether that means to vax or not to vax.
Well, I didn't mean I'm ashamed for vaccinating or having been doing so, but a little bit for not having had any clue that there could be good reasons NOT to and not having had any information on it. My parents are really against not vaxing. I only heard one voice about the issue ever. Still I believe we did the right thing, especially regarding the more serious (children's) diseases.

One thing, I do believe vaccing is being promoted that much because in today's society children gather in daycare, pre-school, camps, school, etc. So more chance that contagious diseases spread and cause an epidemic. And that's just not good for economy is it? Less parents need to stay home with sick kids?, and workplace keeps on rolling smoothly? (ironically speaking)

Eg, I will never think of having any anti-flue shot for myself or my family. That is just totally ridiculous! My husband had it and some other adults I know of and most of them became ill with a bad flue because or in spite of the shot. I do not think my husband will have it again. His goals were noble though, it was offered by his workplace and he thought of me pregnant and a little one at home and not wanting to bring flue home. I've been having some flue complications like pneumonia in the years after the birth of my two children but still I am not convinced at all and I do not think a shot would have prevented it either I would just pick up on any virus, my immune system was just so out of sorts...

Personally and in our situation I might now choose for polio, tetanus, HepB and measles for our kids, possibly more spread or postponed. And maybe consider some other in the long term.
Hep A, I don't know, my mom had it when she was almost graduating from high school and ill for many many months and she had to redo her last school year for it too. This disease is also more common in my guest country.

Thus, most of above being hypothetic since we vacced our kids to schedule...
07-31-2008 07:40 PM
Arwyn There's not even any shame in not knowing to question the vaccine schedule. When you know better, you do better; whatever your ultimate answers are (fully on schedule vaccinations, selective or delayed vaccinations, or not at all), questioning is better, but it's something you have to KNOW to do. That's what Mothering's goal is; to get people aware enough of the issues around vaccinations to KNOW to question, so they can find the answers that are right for them.
07-31-2008 07:04 PM
First Time Mama Hi, just jumping in now. Haven't read all to the posts yet.
My DS, 10 months, has not recived any vaxs yet. I don't even have a pedetrician. So far, my feeling has been I don't want to vax before I know more, and have researched it . I'm finding that hard now, to have the time to do all the researching with a busy, active 10 month old! I did just fininsh the Cave book What your doctor may not tell you about vaccinations and thought that it was good. I researched some while pregnant as well, and was already leaning towards selective/delayed vax. Ultimately, I don't know yet weather I will delay/ selectively vaccinate or not. I feel that I don't want to vax until he is at least two or older. I don;t know why, but that's a pretty strong feeling for me. One reason actually, is because the blood brain barrier doesn't fully form until then. I have also felt that I have plenty of time to vaccinate in the future if I decide to do so, but if I vax'ed and regretted it I could never take it back. Hence, the desire to research and become fully informed. DH and I are in total agreement regarding vaxes.
07-31-2008 06:58 PM
janasmama ernalala - Don't be ashamed of vaxing...we all do what is right for us and according to the information that we have. It sounds like you have a much different conditions and experiences than most of us here. The important thing is to have the knowledge and make an informed decision, whether that means to vax or not to vax.
07-31-2008 06:46 PM
ernalala We are in the minority here apparently, we've been vaxing both children, according to schedule even :-). I want to say first of all I do not have a problem with people not vaxing, everyone their choices. Maybe I should be somewhat ashamed for it but I didn't question vaxing and in my country of origin it is 'the normal thing to do' and even one vax is obliged. My parents were always very pro vaxing, my environment obviously too. In my guest country people and doctors in general are very pro vaxing too. It is a less developed country and some of the diseases have been making and some are still making victims among children. A sibling of my husband's has died as a little child from measle complications. We know people that had polio in their childhood (and are physically handicapped because of that). At least one that has hepatitis B which is also very common in this country. My husband so is pro-vax, and I've never been against it. In this country children's lives are really being saved by vaccinations. Only now I doubt if all of those are that necessary, and I question the very early vacc and the combining of so many in one. When I found more information about it via mothering it was already too late, our kids have ha most shots anyway. Of which some now I might have questioned and postponed/declined if my DH would agree. DS1 got an additional new vax in my other country, but we didn't do so for DS2.
My children have been reacting very well to all the vaccinations they got. I hope it won't cause any negative effect in their health. I was also vaccinated according to schedule even though then there were less of them and I mainly got the more 'serious' ones. As far as I know, I'm fine.
Unfortunately, pre-school here seems to be VERY panicky regarding children's diseases and stresses on vaxing. They're even panicking when a minor children's disease like chiken pox is around and most of the children are even vacced for this. Buy the way, that vacc is not even a guarantee that your child won't have them, only it may be very mild.
Just sharing my experience.
07-31-2008 12:19 PM
lurable I love being on vacation because it has actually given DP and I time to do all of the research we've been meaning to do! So far DD#1 received most vax until she was 12 mos. then we stopped all together. She did not receive Chicken Pox or Flu or Hep. B. DD 2 has not had any and as of now it will remain that way. My Dr. has been great- he doesn't even mention it now
07-31-2008 10:45 AM
portafenster
I'm brand new here, and I came to MDC specifically for support and info on these issues.
Thank you so much for all of the great info, and now, I'm getting to work on my own research!
Elaine
07-31-2008 01:47 AM
jaidymama the answers I had received about that seemed to be pretty simple...
Stay away from white sugar
wash hands regularly
Eat healthily
Get plenty of sleep

I know we also stay on top of colds. The moment I sense one coming on, I get out the herbal remedies and the Vit C & A.

I think washing hands alone before my kiddos eat has been one of the best things this year because we've been sick less.
07-31-2008 12:40 AM
janasmama So, does anyone do anything special for their children when they don't vaccinate? For instance health supplements...like green drinks, sea kelp, etc. You may do these anyway but I want to know if they are being done specifically b/c of non-vaxing so that the immune system is 'developed'. I hope that makes sense.
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