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  Topic Review (Newest First)
11-20-2008 03:02 PM
wallacesmum
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
Yeah, I think it's the "pertussis toxin" part that helps infants/kids/adults not have such a bad cough.
For adults and teens...older people can get a bad case, too. Not "deadly" and it won't put you in the hospital, but it can be miserable. Really miserable. So I think it would be reasonable to get the shot to spare yourself that misery.
Is there efficacy data for adults that makes a case for a reduction in the cough? I haven't ever looked at it, because I figure an adult can decide whether or not to self-treat; it's just tricky convincing a baby that he should eat piles of sodium ascorbate!
11-19-2008 04:28 PM
mamakay
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissRubyandKen View Post
mamakay- do you believe that the antigens other than the PT are completely ineffective?
Maybe. Or they might add in another 10% or so effectiveness. But out of those 4 other antigens they put in there, nobody knows which one(s), if any, are having an effect. The research is all over the place, and in one study, they'll find an effect with one antigen, but in the next study, they'll find a negative effect there.
So it's hard to say.
11-19-2008 04:24 PM
mamakay
Quote:
Originally Posted by TanyaLopez View Post
So what do we know about what the 2mo, 4mo, 6mo, etc series does for/to infants? Is the anti-toxin part that's supposed to make the really heavy coughing actually helping to some extent?

And are there any benefits to teen/adult vaccination? It seems like it's a rare adult who gets the really heavy, debilitating cough. Not impossible, but most cases seem like normal coughs (no one thinks whooping cough, I mean).

What's the most interesting thing you've learned? I have to ask this--I don't know enough to ask the question that would naturally lead here, so I'll just jump to the end-point.
Yeah, I think it's the "pertussis toxin" part that helps infants/kids/adults not have such a bad cough.
For adults and teens...older people can get a bad case, too. Not "deadly" and it won't put you in the hospital, but it can be miserable. Really miserable. So I think it would be reasonable to get the shot to spare yourself that misery.

The most interesting thing I've learned is that the people in charge of this stuff are sort of faking it when they act like they really know what's going on.
11-19-2008 02:13 PM
CookAMH
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2boyzmama View Post
PLUS, immunity is wearing off, most adults no long have immunity, and adults tend not to have the classic "whoop", so they are ill with pertussis without knowing it and spreading it around.

It's a very frustrating vaccine...
That is an interesting point. I wonder how much WC starts with adults....

Also, in being a bacteria...lifetime immunity would not necessarily come with natural infection, correct?
11-19-2008 01:38 PM
MissRubyandKen mamakay- do you believe that the antigens other than the PT are completely ineffective?
11-19-2008 07:35 AM
tanyalynn So what do we know about what the 2mo, 4mo, 6mo, etc series does for/to infants? Is the anti-toxin part that's supposed to make the really heavy coughing actually helping to some extent?

And are there any benefits to teen/adult vaccination? It seems like it's a rare adult who gets the really heavy, debilitating cough. Not impossible, but most cases seem like normal coughs (no one thinks whooping cough, I mean).

What's the most interesting thing you've learned? I have to ask this--I don't know enough to ask the question that would naturally lead here, so I'll just jump to the end-point.
11-18-2008 09:48 PM
mamakay
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallacesmum View Post
All right, so then, what do you think it might mean that the vaccination can actually have a negative effect on resistance?
It means the "Do it for your baby!" ads are a scandalous load of hooey, for one...
11-18-2008 10:50 AM
wallacesmum All right, so then, what do you think it might mean that the vaccination can actually have a negative effect on resistance?
11-18-2008 04:18 AM
mamakay I have a pretty thorough understanding of this issue, so if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask.

It is an extremely complex issue, but I don't mind explaining what's known.
We can make a "be all end all" thread for the archives, if any of you want.

11-17-2008 08:42 PM
mamakay
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallacesmum View Post
MK, does this


mean that the vaccine caused a statistically significant immune supressant response in one study group?
In one sample (one person's blood), yes.
His blood was better at "killing" pertussis before being vaccinated.
11-17-2008 05:34 PM
wallacesmum MK, does this
Quote:
one postimmunization sample with a strong response to filamentous hemagglutinin caused an inhibition of phagocytosis that was statistically significant compared to that observed for the no-serum control
mean that the vaccine caused a statistically significant immune supressant response in one study group?
11-16-2008 09:16 PM
mamakay And then, back to that ACT toxin that's not in the vaccine...
This is bad:

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi...10.1086/381204


Quote:
Of particular interest is the lack of a significant ACT antibody response in children for whom the DTP or DTaP vaccines failed. This induced tolerance is intriguing and may be due to the phenomenon called “original antigenic sin” [22]. In this phenomenon, a child responds at initial exposure to all presented epitopes of the infecting agent or vaccine. With repeated exposure when older, the child responds preferentially to those epitopes shared with the original infecting agent or vaccine and can be expected to have responses to new epitopes of the infecting agent that are less marked than normal. Because both vaccines contained multiple antigens (i.e., PT, FHA, PRN, and fimbriae), the patients who had been vaccinated responded to the antigens that they had been primed with and did not respond to the new antigen (i.e., ACT) associated with infection.
That means that, in theory, DTaP vaccinated kids might be MORE CONTAGIOUS when they catch pertussis compared to unvaxed kids after they catch pertussis.
11-16-2008 09:09 PM
mamakay http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=555012
11-16-2008 09:00 PM
mamakay
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelsi View Post
I think most of us can agree here that the pertussis vax does not prevent transmission.

However doesn't it prevent some transmission? If you have pertussis but no symptoms you're much less likely to spread germs. You're not coughing all over the place, nose running, etc.
Pertussis is most contagious in the first couple of weeks, when you think you just have a cold.
There's no evidence that the vaccine does anything at all to prevent that phase. All we know is that it shortens "the cough"...but by the time you have "the pertussis cough"...you're basically mostly done with the contagious phase.
11-16-2008 08:54 PM
mamakay They do put actual bacterial antigens in there, but they just don't seem to do what they're supposed to do.

Look through some of these...

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...r=&btnG=Search


Especially this one (this is something to send to that infectious disease doc)

http://iai.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/68/12/7175

Quote:
Characterization of Bactericidal Immune Responses following Vaccination with Acellular Pertussis Vaccines in Adults
Quote:
Similarly, opsonization with the postimmunization sera failed to enhance attachment or phagocytosis of bacteria by neutrophils, and one postimmunization sample with a strong response to filamentous hemagglutinin caused an inhibition of phagocytosis that was statistically significant compared to that observed for the no-serum control. In summary, booster immunization of adults with acellular pertussis vaccines was not found to increase bactericidal activity over preimmunization levels. Identifying ways to promote bactericidal immune responses might improve the efficacy of acellular pertussis vaccines.
What they're saying is that the antigens in the vax that are supposed to teach your immune system how to combat the actual bacteria, don't. It should, and it's supposed to....but it doesn't work.

Which is almost certainly why the 5 component acellular vaccine isn't much more effective than the monocomponent "pertussis toxoid only" vaccine.

The antigen they need to have in there is probably this one:

http://iai.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/68/12/7152

Quote:
Neutralizing Antibodies to Adenylate Cyclase Toxin Promote Phagocytosis of Bordetella pertussis by Human Neutrophils
But the current pertussis vaccine doesn't have that toxin in there.
Adenylate Cyclase Toxin is sort of like a "forcefield" for the pertussis bacteria.Pertussis excretes that toxin to hide from your immune system. That's probably why the pertussis vax doesn't work to help you clear pertussis more quickly.
11-16-2008 08:16 PM
MissRubyandKen I've been trying to find the paper I read that stated this but haven't yet. I remember reading that anything short of universal vaccination with DTaP and Tdap wouldn't see a reduction overall in cases of pertussis at this point.
11-16-2008 01:28 AM
tanyalynn
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2boyzmama View Post
Does someone want to call the CDC vaccine information line and ask this question??? I might do it, actually.
Wow, I didn't realize there was a number you could call to ask technical questions.

If you call, can you share the results with us? Pretty please?
11-16-2008 12:14 AM
Proverbs31 ^^Reminds me of Dr. Mendelsohn's saying: you only hear about the downsides of a drug when a replacement drug is introduced...
11-15-2008 09:00 PM
quarteralien In my rereading of the pertussis chapter of the Pink Book, I found a passage that said the acellular version was more effective than the old whole cell version. : But everywhere you hear about it, you hear that it's safer, but less effective. I don't think anyone has the straight scoop on this vax.
11-15-2008 08:51 PM
2boyzmama
Quote:
Originally Posted by quarteralien View Post
So, in English, what are FHA and pertractin?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriket View Post
they are pieces of Pertussis.
Pertractin is the "house" or outer membrane protein that sticks to epithelial cells. FHA is the tendril that grabs on. "it is a fimbrial-like structure on the bacterial surface, and cell-bound pertussis toxin (PTx). Short range effects of soluble toxins play a role as well in invasion during the colonization stage."

http://www.textbookofbacteriology.net/pertussis.html for FHA Pertractin, just google for a refrence
See, this is the exact problem with this!!! Part of it IS the toxin, however do you notice how they use the word "toxoid" for D and T, but "toxin" for a portion of P? Why? And the other two portions are the acellular part of the pertussis bacteria, as I understand it. So the *idea* is that the vaccine is created to protect against the toxoid AND the bacteria, but because there were such severe effects from the old whole-cell vaccine, they switched to acellular and it isn't as effective.

It's all mumbo jumbo, and drives me crazy!!! With my son's particular special needs, I really *want* to give him protection from pertussis, even just partial protection, but not until I understand this vaccine more!!!

It is clear, though, that the argument of "it doesn't prevent transmission because it protects against the toxin" isn't quite accurate or complete. Does someone want to call the CDC vaccine information line and ask this question??? I might do it, actually.
11-15-2008 05:22 PM
kriket
Quote:
Originally Posted by quarteralien View Post
So, in English, what are FHA and pertractin?
they are pieces of Pertussis.
Pertractin is the "house" or outer membrane protein that sticks to epithelial cells. FHA is the tendril that grabs on. "it is a fimbrial-like structure on the bacterial surface, and cell-bound pertussis toxin (PTx). Short range effects of soluble toxins play a role as well in invasion during the colonization stage."

http://www.textbookofbacteriology.net/pertussis.html for FHA Pertractin, just google for a refrence
11-15-2008 04:31 PM
quarteralien So, in English, what are FHA and pertractin?
11-15-2008 04:20 PM
Proverbs31 Sorry, my bad
11-15-2008 02:21 PM
MissRubyandKen insert

Quote:
INFANRIX (Diphtheria and Tetanus Toxoids and Acellular Pertussis Vaccine Adsorbed) is a noninfectious, sterile combination of diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and 3 pertussis antigens [inactivated pertussis toxin (PT) and formaldehyde-treated filamentous hemagglutinin (FHA) and pertactin (69 kiloDalton outer membrane protein)] adsorbed onto aluminum hydroxide. INFANRIX is intended for intramuscular injection only.
11-15-2008 12:45 PM
Proverbs31
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2boyzmama View Post
Here is the package insert which in the very first sentence says that it's Diptheria toxoid and Tetanus toxoid, but Pertussis bacteria (acellular because the old whole-cell bacteria was thought to be the cause of the adverse reactions in the DTP vaccine; that's what the "a" in DTaP stands for) It appears that Connor's dr was right, the pertussis portion of the vaccine DOES protect against the bacteria, so in theory SHOULD prevent transmission.
The first sentence says it contains antigens for the pertussis toxin, not the bacteria:

INFANRIX (Diphtheria and Tetanus Toxoids and Acellular Pertussis Vaccine Adsorbed) is a noninfectious, sterile combination of diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and 3 pertussis antigens [inactivated pertussis toxin (PT)
11-15-2008 11:59 AM
quarteralien
Quote:
Originally Posted by chelsmm View Post
Angela,
Do you have info about this? I'd be interested to learn more about this. I thought all vaccines were suppose to prevent transmission... Thanks!
Not Angela, but I asked this question several months ago and got this answer:

Quote:
Inactivated polio vaccine (IPV) needs to be injected and works by producing protective antibodies in the blood (serum immunity) - thus preventing the spread of poliovirus to the central nervous system. However, it induces only very low levels of immunity to polivirus locally, inside the gut. As a result, it provides individual protection against polio paralysis but, unlike OPV, cannot prevent the spread of wild polio virus.
http://www.polioeradication.org/vaccines.asp
11-15-2008 08:01 AM
Sileree Yeah, some studies do report that the vaccine prevents transmission. And theoretically it could work if protects against the bacteria.

I guess to me the proof that it doesn't work is the prevalence of the disease. If it did prevent tranmission then would the disease be endemic among recently vaccinated children? I don't think so.
11-15-2008 06:03 AM
chelsmm
Quote:
Hmmm... it may have to do with how it works then. I know that the IPV doesn't prevent transmission either (virus instead of bacteria of course, so whole different creature...)
Angela,
Do you have info about this? I'd be interested to learn more about this. I thought all vaccines were suppose to prevent transmission... Thanks!
11-14-2008 11:32 PM
alegna Hmmm... it may have to do with how it works then. I know that the IPV doesn't prevent transmission either (virus instead of bacteria of course, so whole different creature...)

-Angela
11-14-2008 11:31 PM
Gitti WEll, here are a couple of studies quoted -

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/...-transmission/

So, who is right?
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