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Thread: Humanized Caesarean Birth: How do we help the 5-15% who will need a c-section? Reply to Thread
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10-16-2010 04:38 PM
mmaramba
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCMoulton View Post
I have found that the only way a woman will get true support for her C/S here at MDC is if she is traumatized, not accepting, of her C/S. Those of us who post here saying that our experience was a good one most of the time are either ignored or told that we must be mistaken or still not realizing what happened to us. Many women have asked for a C/S support forum and have been told that it is not possible here.
I don't know all the details of those interactions, but I would just like to add for the record that I find that very concerning, and at this time am in full support of such a board. I belong to another NCB board that requires interventive birth stories to be linked instead of directly posted, for example, and I think that's fine. After all, the board is for support of no/low-intervention birth. Requiring links is not meant to stigmatize interventive births, but not to normalize them on that board, nor to subject women to such stories who would rather not read them.

However, not allowing a support area for C/S moms... I can't really understand the reasoning behind that. If could conjecture as to why that seems to be the policy, but I'd rather not. There is a VBAC forum, of course, but... I mean, I can understand not wanting to endorse their overuse, but this is not like routine non-religious circumcision, where I can understand MDC calling it a closed case. (Whether one agrees or disagrees, I can see why MDC is unwilling to host a debate on the issue or support it. There are plenty of other places online where you can find people who do support routine infant circumcision.)

But C/S... Even 99.9% of NCB-supporters would agree that they are not inherently bad things. They're surgical procedures, and they can absolutely save lives and health. It's a fact that most women who have had them, even unnecessarily, believe they were necessary, but as long as justifying all C/S, generally, is not a part of it (and I'd hope not, being that this is MDC)... I mean... Women who have had C/S and are perfectly happy with those C/S still need support in recovery and whatnot.

10-16-2010 04:24 PM
_ktg_
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCMoulton View Post
I have found that the only way a woman will get true support for her C/S here at MDC is if she is traumatized, not accepting, of her C/S. Those of us who post here saying that our experience was a good one most of the time are either ignored or told that we must be mistaken or still not realizing what happened to us. Many women have asked for a C/S support forum and have been told that it is not possible here.
10-16-2010 04:11 PM
TCMoulton
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
I'm hearing this from more and more women here lately. I find it really interesting, because the NFL community is the only place I've ever found any support. Actually..."c-section support" were the Google search terms I used to find MDC in the first place.

I have found that the only way a woman will get true support for her C/S here at MDC is if she is traumatized, not accepting, of her C/S. Those of us who post here saying that our experience was a good one most of the time are either ignored or told that we must be mistaken or still not realizing what happened to us. Many women have asked for a C/S support forum and have been told that it is not possible here.
10-16-2010 04:02 PM
mmaramba
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuildJenn View Post
Perhaps not, but I think that when women challenge post c/s women on their experience and choice they are behaving disrespectfully. I also hate the way people pick at women who post on their Facebooks about planned c-sections (a reasonably recent thread on this forum) and so on and so forth.

I'm just not going to change my mind that women CAN be more respectful even while seeking their goals.

I also keep saying this: The NCB community loses my support because of that kind of thing. I can no longer wholeheartedly recommend to friends that they look for doulas or even come here to read up on the things because I don't believe they will be, in the end, supported if things go wrong - and that is when they will need the support.
Well, I am very, truly and deeply sorry to hear that, but I want to be as clear as crystal if I haven't been up to this point.

1) I, TOO, think that when women challenge post c/s women on their experience and choice they are behaving disrespectfully.

and

2) I'm ALSO not going to change my mind that women can be more respectful even while seeking their goals. In fact, that was a huge part of my point.

I know this is getting into a whole "no true Scotsman" argument, but I have repeatedly reiterated that attacking and nitpicking other women in the way you describe has NO PLACE in the "NCB community." That has in fact been the crux of all I have posted-- that women nitpicking each others' choices and/or circumstances, particularly directly TO those women, is unproductive in the extreme.

I feel a bit that we are going in circles here, and I understand why, but... Really, as far as I am concerned, we should be attacking the myth of "too posh to push" just as we should be attacking myths surrounding homebirthing and VBAC'ing, etc. The way to fight a system that divides to conquer is not to further those divisions with judgment and ridicule and personal attacks, whether direct or subtle. And I kind of feel like I am hearing "Well, I'll stop judging when you stop judging," from some (perhaps not the majority, but enough) on BOTH sides, or all "sides'. (*sigh*) That does nothing for any of us.

And, by the way-- that was not my point, either. I didn't mean to imply that NCBers are excused from attacking other women because they are also under attack from "mainstream" folks. I only meant that there is a common cause for all of our problems, and if it's not the non-evidence-based and largely disrespectful, misogynist system, then the only other conclusion is that it's "women's nature" or some other such nonsense that I simply refuse to accept.

I do think it's sad that you no longer feel that you can endorse doulas or MDC... Although if it's only that you can no longer "wholeheartedly" endorse them, I can completely understand that. To be perfectly frank, I don't wholeheartedly endorse anything, really. When I refer friends here, for example, I always do so with a few caveats. But that's in part because nothing and no "movement" is a monolith. We are all simultaneously part of communities and individuals with our own minds to make up.

Personally, it's hard for me to imagine becoming truly disillusioned with, say, NCB-- regardless of what some who identify themselves as part of the "NCB community" say or do to me now or in the future. That's because NCB simply makes sense to me, from many perspectives-- scientific, psychosocial, anti-oppression, etc. There are tons of people within that "community" who have very different perspectives from my own. I am never going to see eye-to-eye with HBers who come from a libertarian or quiverfull perspective, or midwives who believe in the necessity of tons of herbal supplements, or people who genuinely believe that, say, women NEVER make babies too big for them to birth or that XYZ intervention is NEVER necessary. I don't even believe that very many OBs are primarily driven by a strong profit motive.

But shoot-- I think a healthy skepticism and challenging of any system or community from within is a Good Thing. Particularly good for a movement that is about tearing down old norms and stereotypes. I'm not into NCB because I think it's a bad thing to completely entrust our medical care to OBs and give up our own autonomy, but it's somehow a GOOD thing to do the same with midwives. (And I have sometimes seen that attitude here and elsewhere.) I'm "into" NCB because I think we should be empowered by the evidence to make our own decisions about our bodies and our babies with the guidance of respectful care providers who really know their stuff.

And that's all I have to say about that.
10-16-2010 01:32 PM
rainbowmoon
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovebeingamomma View Post
If you're objecting to generalizations then stop generalizing the "natural childbirth community" negatively. This has turned into such a "Us and them" discussion, there seems to be a whole lot of bitterness with nothing constructive happening. What exactly are you suggesting the solution is, never have threads like this? Or is it just because it was started by someone who didn't have a c-section? Do you have specific suggestions for better wording?
**NM!** falling on deaf ears here.
10-16-2010 01:29 PM
loveneverfails Just to clarify, when I say "humanized" with regards to any birth, vaginal or caesarean, what I am trying to describe is a birth that is centered on the human realities in birth, primarily supporting the mother and child as they get to meet eachother face to face for the first time, only deviating from that as primary focus when there is a clear medical reason to do so. Focusing on excessive bleeding when that is an issue? Absolutely appropriate. Keeping a healthy infant out of the mother's line of sight for the convenience of the staff? Not compassionate or humane to me.
10-16-2010 01:21 PM
GuildJenn
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmaramba View Post
The reason for the "systematic suspicion of C/S" within the "NCB community" is not women's personal irrationality or cliquishness or meanness or selfishness, and if they just got over it, they'd be able to support C/S mamas as they should. The reason is A) that the medical community has given us all good reason to be suspicious of C/S in general and B) the larger sexist society has pitted women in competition with each other. So the solution is not to "stop being jerks" or "stop being suspicious" (of the overuse of interventions) it's to A) attack the system and B) do our best to reframe women's issues as a collective struggle, wherein a rising tide lifts all ships.

As I said before, I believe the same things that will lead to more respectful C/S will lead to less of them (overall). Win-win-win.
Perhaps not, but I think that when women challenge post c/s women on their experience and choice they are behaving disrespectfully. I also hate the way people pick at women who post on their Facebooks about planned c-sections (a reasonably recent thread on this forum) and so on and so forth.

I'm just not going to change my mind that women CAN be more respectful even while seeking their goals.

I also keep saying this: The NCB community loses my support because of that kind of thing. I can no longer wholeheartedly recommend to friends that they look for doulas or even come here to read up on the things because I don't believe they will be, in the end, supported if things go wrong - and that is when they will need the support.
10-16-2010 11:48 AM
lovebeingamomma If you're objecting to generalizations then stop generalizing the "natural childbirth community" negatively. This has turned into such a "Us and them" discussion, there seems to be a whole lot of bitterness with nothing constructive happening. What exactly are you suggesting the solution is, never have threads like this? Or is it just because it was started by someone who didn't have a c-section? Do you have specific suggestions for better wording?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rainbowmoon View Post
I am not just talking about this thread. I am talking about the natural childbirth community as a whole and the the whole "you are broken if you have a c/s" mentality. I have seen it damage more than one mother and MORE often than a c/s itself!

There are many of us who beg to differ that our c/s's WERE respectful. There's no need to heap pity on the c/s moms is our point. NOW in the cases of severe trauma like your own that is different. But definitely NOT The norm as the natural birth community leads moms to believe, there's no reason for it!

Surgery sucks period. It's traumatic. We don't need to be victimized further though when the REAL problem lies with the insurance companies and hospital protocols.

The objection in to the thread is the wording and generalizations. Especially coming from those who haven't had sections. Kind of offensive if you ask me but that's just me. We definitely don't have the same feelings on this! I Just find the NFL community not the place to get support from though in terms of c/s. (Sadly)
10-16-2010 09:51 AM
mamabadger
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmaramba View Post
The reason for the "systematic suspicion of C/S" within the "NCB community" is not women's personal irrationality or cliquishness or meanness or selfishness, and if they just got over it, they'd be able to support C/S mamas as they should. The reason is A) that the medical community has given us all good reason to be suspicious of C/S in general and B) the larger sexist society has pitted women in competition with each other. So the solution is not to "stop being jerks" or "stop being suspicious" (of the overuse of interventions) it's to A) attack the system and B) do our best to reframe women's issues as a collective struggle, wherein a rising tide lifts all ships.

As I said before, I believe the same things that will lead to more respectful C/S will lead to less of them (overall). Win-win-win.
10-16-2010 01:00 AM
mmaramba
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuildJenn View Post
I respectfully disagree. Certainly if I were talking to a group of OBs I would have something to say to them as well.

But there is a systemically entrenched, suspicious attitude towards c-sections within the natural birth community and I'm sorry but I don't find the crab analogy very respectful.

Most women who advocate for natural birth approaches are extremely ready to support - well, natural birth. It's only after they have a "failed" birth/c-section/find they need one for whatever reason/decide to induce/and so on that they discover how hollow the support is for their new choices. (ETA: And experiences.) They are not generally fooled by the medical establishment into thinking they are being judged - they are judged, their stories questioned, and so on.

Women who are, for example, here on MDC talking about it do not generally just turn into advocates for 40% c-section rates. And yet they have shared - do some searches on past threads - how little support they have felt. That doesn't come from nowhere.
I don't think it comes from nowhere, either. As I've said many times, it comes from the system that pits women against one another. Now, that does not absolve us of the responsibility not to be its willing conduits. Quite the contrary-- it means instead that we all must take a step back and see how we are perpetuating the same injuries on one another. ALL of us.

Although fairly uncommon, I do see NCB-supporters who say things like, "Women who end up with XYZ (terrible, unwarranted consequence of medicalized birth-- not just any C/S, but some 4th degree episiotomy because the OB was impatient or some such) deserve what they get! It's their own fault for not doing the research like I did." It shocks and disgusts me and they get an earful from me every time. The judgment, the selfishness and the downright arrogance are completely intolerable, IMO. And I'm pretty sure I need not list similarly disrespectful examples of "mainstream" mamas who seem full of schadenfreude when a woman who attempts a natural birth ends up with some trauma.

But going back to your comment... I think suspicion of interventions is rational, given their extreme overuse and strong link to a misogynist (racist, classist, etc.) culture. But you're absolutely right-- and I hope I have been clear-- that suspicion of women who have them/are subjected to them/choose them is unproductive in the extreme. And suspicion of all interventions, all of the time, is highly IRrational.

As was stated earlier, I would like to see a culture of support for EVIDENCE-BASED care and respected/empowered mothers. I am thrilled that C/S exist and that C/S techniques continue to be improved. I am similarly thrilled that most medical interventions exist and can be used when necessary in birth. My problem is with their overuse, and all that comes with that.

However, I think I have been misread, or else I have miscommunicated. Just because "the system" is at fault does not mean that we cannot ask each other for specific types of support per this thread-- that we cannot take responsibility for our place in the system. I simply feel it's unproductive to lay blame at the feet of each other as if we, as women-- as mothers and mothers-to-be-- hold the primary responsibility for the state of birth and support for birthing women (or lack thereof).

By which I mean, for example... (And this is not anything you don't know-- just writing it out to clarify my own thoughts...)

The reason for the "systematic suspicion of C/S" within the "NCB community" is not women's personal irrationality or cliquishness or meanness or selfishness, and if they just got over it, they'd be able to support C/S mamas as they should. The reason is A) that the medical community has given us all good reason to be suspicious of C/S in general and B) the larger sexist society has pitted women in competition with each other. So the solution is not to "stop being jerks" or "stop being suspicious" (of the overuse of interventions) it's to A) attack the system and B) do our best to reframe women's issues as a collective struggle, wherein a rising tide lifts all ships.

As I said before, I believe the same things that will lead to more respectful C/S will lead to less of them (overall). Win-win-win.
10-15-2010 09:27 PM
Storm Bride
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainbowmoon View Post
I Just find the NFL community not the place to get support from though in terms of c/s. (Sadly)
I'm hearing this from more and more women here lately. I find it really interesting, because the NFL community is the only place I've ever found any support. Actually..."c-section support" were the Google search terms I used to find MDC in the first place.
10-15-2010 07:59 PM
Chamomile Girl It is by no means a victimization of women to acknowledge that many women are victims. That is akin to saying that a non-white person decrying discrimination is just "pulling the race card." Dismissing another's difficulty so flippantly because its not the same as your experience is never ok.

Some women are fine with their c-sections. Some end up with PTSD. There is room to honor and support both sides.

Rainbowmoon I get the impression that you find the terms the discussion is couched in to be patronizing. Perhaps this is something that needs examined in a thread meant to be supportive. Personally I find the word "dehumanizing" to refer to the way the medical machine treats birth. I certainly felt some of this during my son's birth, and I was in a very patient-centric hospital...but a hospital nonetheless.

Frankly what I don't agree with is excluding women who have not had a section from the discussion. What possible end could that serve outside of further alienation for all mothers?
10-15-2010 07:31 PM
rainbowmoon well I find the word "humanized" in itself a bit degrading. My baby and I are BOTH Humans. My doctors were respectful. I was not forced into anything. The experience was a good one. No need for the pity party or to feel you must help me, yk? I am educated enough to make my own decisions. it just rubs me the wrong way that there are moms out there thinking they must save me!

I get that you want to help but the tone feels yucky.

I think it would go alot further and be more valuable to explore how to support c/s moms further and not ostracize them. (Along with the malpractice ins. and the hospital politics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by loveneverfails View Post
RainbowMoon, the answer to the question "why do women need help if their c-section was warranted?" for *me* is that just because a c-section can be warranted doesn't mean that however the mom is treated is automatically ok because she needed a c-section. Even a mom who wasn't traumatized might prefer to have a baby going straight over drapes to onto mom's chest, and for a mom on the border of feeling traumatized or not something as simple as even just 5 minutes of skin to skin in the OR right after birth might make a tremendous difference in how she perceives her birth.

I care about figuring out how to help the greatest number of women possible have positive birth experiences, including women who need are best served by caesarean birth. Women deserve joyful, humanized births in everything on the spectrum from a home birth to a caesarean. The mother has the right to joy in that experience and a right to whatever she needs to reach that happiness and peace in safety, and given that some women are always going to need caesarean births, I want to know what would help make that the most joyful experience for the greatest number of mothers.

I don't understand why you're offended by this idea, and with all due respect I think you might be reacting to something that I never said and am not implying. I'm far from a natural birth purist, and would consider doing birth work as a doula specifically for women requiring more medicalized and/or caesarean births.
10-15-2010 07:26 PM
rainbowmoon I am not just talking about this thread. I am talking about the natural childbirth community as a whole and the the whole "you are broken if you have a c/s" mentality. I have seen it damage more than one mother and MORE often than a c/s itself!

There are many of us who beg to differ that our c/s's WERE respectful. There's no need to heap pity on the c/s moms is our point. NOW in the cases of severe trauma like your own that is different. But definitely NOT The norm as the natural birth community leads moms to believe, there's no reason for it!

Surgery sucks period. It's traumatic. We don't need to be victimized further though when the REAL problem lies with the insurance companies and hospital protocols.

The objection in to the thread is the wording and generalizations. Especially coming from those who haven't had sections. Kind of offensive if you ask me but that's just me. We definitely don't have the same feelings on this! I Just find the NFL community not the place to get support from though in terms of c/s. (Sadly)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
How on earth does asking how c-sections can be made less traumatic victimize anybody? If you don't need them to be humanized, that's great. There are a lot of us who do need that. We need it badly. The systemic approach (of course there are individual providers who don't fit the mold) to c-sections isn't very respectful of the woman or the "birth". So...are you suggesting we just leave it that, so that we don't accidentally victimize women who are okay with their sections?

I'm honestly having trouble understanding the objections to this thread. This is - again - sounding like women who are traumatized should be hung out to dry, so that nobody accidentally suggests that someone was traumatized when they weren't.

How is anyone being victimized by the suggestion that c-sections can be - or even are - a dehumanizing experience? If your (no particular "you") had a c-section that wasn't like that, that's a good thing. How is it victimizing you to want that for other women, too?
10-15-2010 07:24 PM
loveneverfails RainbowMoon, the answer to the question "why do women need help if their c-section was warranted?" for *me* is that just because a c-section can be warranted doesn't mean that however the mom is treated is automatically ok because she needed a c-section. Even a mom who wasn't traumatized might prefer to have a baby going straight over drapes to onto mom's chest, and for a mom on the border of feeling traumatized or not something as simple as even just 5 minutes of skin to skin in the OR right after birth might make a tremendous difference in how she perceives her birth.

I care about figuring out how to help the greatest number of women possible have positive birth experiences, including women who need are best served by caesarean birth. Women deserve joyful, humanized births in everything on the spectrum from a home birth to a caesarean. The mother has the right to joy in that experience and a right to whatever she needs to reach that happiness and peace in safety, and given that some women are always going to need caesarean births, I want to know what would help make that the most joyful experience for the greatest number of mothers.

I don't understand why you're offended by this idea, and with all due respect I think you might be reacting to something that I never said and am not implying. I'm far from a natural birth purist, and would consider doing birth work as a doula specifically for women requiring more medicalized and/or caesarean births.
10-15-2010 07:08 PM
TCMoulton
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchkinmaker View Post
So this is why I will say I feel resentment when I see the only option to signify c-section birth is an upside down ribbon. It implies that sections are exclusively "birth done wrong". I genuinely feel like my last section was "birth done right". It was perfect for me & my situation.
I agree 100%. Honestly, after reading the official explanation of the ribbon it irritates me a bit more - as if my C/S should be a disappointment to me when it absolutely was not and never will be. I often feel that when I state my opinion here I am immediately countered by opinions telling me why I am wrong and why I should have been traumatized.

While not ideal my C/S was not a traumatic experience and I wish that my feelings could be accepted by all here.
10-15-2010 06:30 PM
Storm Bride
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainbowmoon View Post
well the title of the thread for one.

why do women NEED help if their c/s was warranted? why is it mostly women who haven't had c/s pitying those that have?

granted all surgeries bring with it a chance of depression. that is normal. there's no reason to victimize women though. that's what threads like this do. at least here within this community most the time.
How on earth does asking how c-sections can be made less traumatic victimize anybody? If you don't need them to be humanized, that's great. There are a lot of us who do need that. We need it badly. The systemic approach (of course there are individual providers who don't fit the mold) to c-sections isn't very respectful of the woman or the "birth". So...are you suggesting we just leave it that, so that we don't accidentally victimize women who are okay with their sections?

I'm honestly having trouble understanding the objections to this thread. This is - again - sounding like women who are traumatized should be hung out to dry, so that nobody accidentally suggests that someone was traumatized when they weren't.

How is anyone being victimized by the suggestion that c-sections can be - or even are - a dehumanizing experience? If your (no particular "you") had a c-section that wasn't like that, that's a good thing. How is it victimizing you to want that for other women, too?
10-15-2010 06:21 PM
rainbowmoon I wasn't tied down. When I asked to NOT be tied down I was looked at like I was nuts too so it's not common everywhere.
10-15-2010 06:19 PM
rainbowmoon well the title of the thread for one.

why do women NEED help if their c/s was warranted? why is it mostly women who haven't had c/s pitying those that have?

granted all surgeries bring with it a chance of depression. that is normal. there's no reason to victimize women though. that's what threads like this do. at least here within this community most the time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mmaramba View Post
Respectfully, who in the world said they didn't? The very OP acknowledges that they are necessary and even life-saving at least 5-15% of the time.

As much as people are frustrated with the idea that the "NCB community" (apparently a monolith) "blames mothers" for C/S, I am annoyed that the "NCB community" is being painted with a broad brush.

This is the crabs-in-a-barrel thing I was talking about.

I don't so much "pity" C/S moms as I am sorry they usually have so much more to recover from than most V-birth moms, physically. And I feel angry for those who were bullied into them or had them unnecessarily-- which is half or more of them. (If 15% are "necessary" and our rate is 40%...?)

By the way, regarding "too posh to push":

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...tive-cesareans

THE PRIMARY PROBLEM HERE IS NOT OTHER MOTHERS. Not their attitudes, not their support or lack thereof, not their choices or "choices," not their defensiveness or even their extremely rude comments (on all sides). I am not saying they don't hurt or aren't detrimental, but they are not responsible for the barrel we're in, here.

I cannot stress this enough.
10-15-2010 06:18 PM
Storm Bride
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchkinmaker View Post
I guess I wasn't "tied down" really. The surgical table was very narrow and there was two arm boards that extended from the table. I understand the narrow make of the table is so the Dr.'s and nurses can get really close to you with no table to get in the way. The narrow table made me very nervous. I almost rolled off it before section #2. The only person in the room at the time was my nurse (Dr.'s hadn't even arrived yet) and she turned for just a brief moment and I started to slip off the table, she turned back and noticed in time thankfully HAAA! Anyway, they did Velcro me down with one small strap about 4" below my armpit on my left arm. I could still reach up and scratch my nose & had full movement of my other arm (which I clung to the arm board with ) but whoa man, it made me feel a whole lot more secure to have that strap on my arm haa!
Oh, okay. I didn't have the strap, but I've heard about being tied down a lot, and wondered.

Quote:
I haven't heard of the arm(s) being tied down as mandatory. From what I understand, most Dr.'s would be fine w/out strapping arms down if you request otherwise.
I know quite a few women who requested that they not be tied, and were told they had to be.

Quote:
I do believe they do it to make sure the surgical field stays sterile or to prevent someone from pulling at an IV line. I don't think it's an issue for most women but I know some can panic during the procedure.
I always panic...every time. Fortunately, my panic manifests itself as freezing, not "fight or flight", so nobody notices. I've been complimented multiple times on my "good attitude" and calm demeanour during the surgery. *sigh*

Quote:
Also, directly below the strap on my arm I had a blood pressure cuff and the anesthesiologist had his hand on that arm almost the whole time.... so maybe it's a means of ensuring your arm is positioned properly for swift and precise action if a problem arises??
Yeah - they always had the cuff on, and I was instructed to keep that arm straight, but I would have, anyway.

Quote:
And I still don't like the section birth ribbon. I mean I don't expect it to be covered in rainbows and unicorns but I dunno, I still don't like it
10-15-2010 06:15 PM
Munchkinmaker I guess I wasn't "tied down" really. The surgical table was very narrow and there was two arm boards that extended from the table. I understand the narrow make of the table is so the Dr.'s and nurses can get really close to you with no table to get in the way. The narrow table made me very nervous. I almost rolled off it before section #2. The only person in the room at the time was my nurse (Dr.'s hadn't even arrived yet) and she turned for just a brief moment and I started to slip off the table, she turned back and noticed in time thankfully HAAA! Anyway, they did Velcro me down with one small strap about 4" below my armpit on my left arm. I could still reach up and scratch my nose & had full movement of my other arm (which I clung to the arm board with ) but whoa man, it made me feel a whole lot more secure to have that strap on my arm haa!

I haven't heard of the arm(s) being tied down as mandatory. From what I understand, most Dr.'s would be fine w/out strapping arms down if you request otherwise. I do believe they do it to make sure the surgical field stays sterile or to prevent someone from pulling at an IV line. I don't think it's an issue for most women but I know some can panic during the procedure. Also, directly below the strap on my arm I had a blood pressure cuff and the anesthesiologist had his hand on that arm almost the whole time.... so maybe it's a means of ensuring your arm is positioned properly for swift and precise action if a problem arises??

And I still don't like the section birth ribbon. I mean I don't expect it to be covered in rainbows and unicorns but I dunno, I still don't like it
10-15-2010 05:06 PM
Storm Bride
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchkinmaker View Post
So this is why I will say I feel resentment when I see the only option to signify c-section birth is an upside down ribbon. It implies that sections are exclusively "birth done wrong".
I can see why you'd interpret it that way, I guess. And, even the official explanation may not change that, but fwiw:

"The Cesarean Awareness Ribbon debuted in April of 2004 for Cesarean Awareness Month. The burgundy color of the ribbons represents birth and the wearing of the ribbon upside down symbolizes the state of distress many pregnant women find themselves in when their birthing choices are limited. The loop of the inverted ribbon represents a pregnant belly and the tails are the arms of a woman outstretched in a cry for help."

I got that from naturalchildbirth.org, but I've seen similar phrasing in other places.


Personally, I have no issue with it. I was crying for help for 16 years...but nobody was listening. I love the loop representing a pregnant belly part.


On a totally separate subject, why do some places tie down the woman's arms? Mine have always been the same - stretched out to both sides, and resting on extensions from the table. I couldn't roll over that way, but they weren't tied. I've been given the option of holding one arm on my chest, but that seemed like an awful lot of effort. Tying them just seems kind of over the top to me.
10-15-2010 05:01 PM
Munchkinmaker I've had 3 c-sections. The first was abrupt and I was completely unprepared for even the idea of having a section. My next section was semi-planned. I knew it was coming but I was hospitalized for 2 weeks before my boys were delivered early. My last birth was 100% a perfect for me and very healing. I don't know if I'm even aloud to claim my c-section birth was healing on this board? LOL! It was planned and preformed exactly on my EDD.

I was healthy and excited, I had time to plan for childcare at home, my husband and I showed up at the hospital at 6 am feeling peaceful. Set up my room, chatted and joked with nurses, took pictures. For the section, my arms were tied down but I prefer that so I don't feel like I'm going to fall off the table. The Dr.'s and nursing staff were extremely friendly and chatty with my husband and I though the birth. My son was delivered and snuggled with me and my husband until my surgery was finished, we were brought back to our room with our new baby (Pre-op, post-op recovery and the rest of your hospital stay are all done in one private room at our hospital). My son and my parents were waiting for me in the room, I nursed within 40 minutes of my son's delivery, he never left my side for the 3 days I was there. I was up and walking w/in 90 minutes, taking a shower shortly after that. It was really a fabulous experience for me and my family... So this is why I will say I feel resentment when I see the only option to signify c-section birth is an upside down ribbon. It implies that sections are exclusively "birth done wrong". I genuinely feel like my last section was "birth done right". It was perfect for me & my situation.
10-13-2010 11:51 PM
Storm Bride
Quote:
Originally Posted by CI Mama View Post
I think I'm just trying to avoid suggesting in any way that there might be a situation where a birthing mom "doesn't need" support!
Gotcha.

Quote:
One of my frustrations with my c-section is that I feel like there was an attitude by my HCP that "oh, she's healing up nicely, everything must be fine, no need to go overboard on support." Well, first--this assumption that I was "healing up nicely" was based on a really narrow concept of who I am and what "healing" is. I'm more than just a few flaps of skin that are sewn together. And "health" means more to me than being able to fart and walk.

But OK, even if I was "healing up nicely" according to these narrow standards, it would have been nice to get more support. Like, a phone call from someone 2 weeks after the birth to see if I was still doing well. Like at least the appearance of noticing and caring that my right foot never woke up from the epidural (yeah, that took about 4 months).
This is soooo true. My recoveries have actually mostly been pretty "good" (with one major exception). But, having a good recovery from major surgery is still having a recovery from major surgery! I think our culture is way, way too accepting of surgery as a routine part of life, and people just don't seem to grasp that c-sections are surgery. (I remember a former co-worker watching a c-section on The Operation, then coming in the next day and triple checking with me if that was what they did to me. After the third time that I said, "yes, Dennis - I had a c-section - that's what a c-section is," he said, "but they just cut her right open - it was huge". I remember staring at him for a second, and then saying, "Dennis - they had to pull out a whole baby - how on earth did you think they did that?" It had really never crossed his mind that an incision big enough to pull a baby out of had to be a fairly significant cut, yk?)

Quote:
I don't really mean that someone who had a glowing, feel-good, bounce-out-of-bed birthing joy ride necessarily needs the same level of support and care as someone who's just been through hell. It's more that "doing well" by someone's standard shouldn't be used an excuse for withdrawing or ignoring further support/care. If a mom needs support, she needs support. She shouldn't have a "prove" a certain level of trauma in order to get it.
Absolutely true. One of the things that's getting lost - in a big way - in the world of birth, in general, is the experience belongs to the mom, and she is the only one who can say whether a given experience was positive, negative, or (as I suspect is usually the case) had aspects of both.
10-13-2010 10:28 PM
konayossie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
You DO have a place here! You DO belong!

Along with the crass generalizations about "NCBers," I actually take issue with the whole "NCB" label.

Even though it is the route I've chosen, my cause is not natural childbirth. My cause is EVIDENCE-BASED childbirth. It is COMPASSIONATE childbirth that treats women and babies with dignity. It is RESPECTFUL childbirth that honors women's autonomy and their right to informed consent. If all of these elements are in place and a woman chooses an epidural, I have no problem with it.

Of course
you can join us to advocate for maternity care reform. I promise that this type of activism is not an exclusive sorority. You don't have to have a drug-free, vaginal childbirth to get hazed in. All women are welcome at the table.
I appreciate your reassurances, and I just want to reaffirm that generally I don't feel that people who are into NCB have excluded me b/c of my c/s, but it's more that I just mourn the loss of opportunity (and possible lack of ability) to experience the birth that medical evidence indicates is optimal for both me and my baby. It's an odd feeling to preach about "trusting birth and our bodies" (which I do to anyone who is open to listening!) and yet my body failed me. So, I guess I'm just still, 18 mos later, working through those conflicts. Actually, I guess I feel even worse when talking to people who just buy the medical model of birth and I'm trying to tell them about the dangers of inventions, even as they know I ended up with a surgical birth.

Also, I really like the distinction you made between advocating for evidence-based childbirth and being in the NCB club. I guess that's how I should think of myself and then there wouldn't be any conflict (since I do believe my c/s was medically indicated/necessary).
10-13-2010 08:49 PM
Turquesa
Quote:
Originally Posted by konayossie View Post
One thing that does bother me is that although I am a huge NCB believer and supporter, I also fear that I am in that 5-15% who simply cannot birth naturally (my MW and the OB who oped on me claim so, anyway). It leaves me in an awkward place wanting so badly to really belong to NCB but never being able to fully partake. I feel strongly enough about this that I am seeking a consult with a HB midwife to go over my birth record and get a non-medical model opinion.

In all, I think it's laudable to work on making c/s more humane, and I don't feel at all patronized or pitied by the NCBers on the thread who haven't had c/s!
You DO have a place here! You DO belong!

Along with the crass generalizations about "NCBers," I actually take issue with the whole "NCB" label.

Even though it is the route I've chosen, my cause is not natural childbirth. My cause is EVIDENCE-BASED childbirth. It is COMPASSIONATE childbirth that treats women and babies with dignity. It is RESPECTFUL childbirth that honors women's autonomy and their right to informed consent. If all of these elements are in place and a woman chooses an epidural, I have no problem with it.

Of course
you can join us to advocate for maternity care reform. I promise that this type of activism is not an exclusive sorority. You don't have to have a drug-free, vaginal childbirth to get hazed in. All women are welcome at the table.
10-13-2010 08:07 PM
GuildJenn
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmaramba View Post
As much as people are frustrated with the idea that the "NCB community" (apparently a monolith) "blames mothers" for C/S, I am annoyed that the "NCB community" is being painted with a broad brush.

This is the crabs-in-a-barrel thing I was talking about...
THE PRIMARY PROBLEM HERE IS NOT OTHER MOTHERS. Not their attitudes, not their support or lack thereof, not their choices or "choices," not their defensiveness or even their extremely rude comments (on all sides). I am not saying they don't hurt or aren't detrimental, but they are not responsible for the barrel we're in, here.

I cannot stress this enough.
I respectfully disagree. Certainly if I were talking to a group of OBs I would have something to say to them as well.

But there is a systemically entrenched, suspicious attitude towards c-sections within the natural birth community and I'm sorry but I don't find the crab analogy very respectful.

Most women who advocate for natural birth approaches are extremely ready to support - well, natural birth. It's only after they have a "failed" birth/c-section/find they need one for whatever reason/decide to induce/and so on that they discover how hollow the support is for their new choices. (ETA: And experiences.) They are not generally fooled by the medical establishment into thinking they are being judged - they are judged, their stories questioned, and so on.

Women who are, for example, here on MDC talking about it do not generally just turn into advocates for 40% c-section rates. And yet they have shared - do some searches on past threads - how little support they have felt. That doesn't come from nowhere.
10-13-2010 07:18 PM
mmaramba
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainbowmoon View Post
I guess I was suggesting support from the natural childbirth community rather than pity of the mom and vilification of the medical establishment. because whether you believe it or not c/s's DO save lives.
Respectfully, who in the world said they didn't? The very OP acknowledges that they are necessary and even life-saving at least 5-15% of the time.

As much as people are frustrated with the idea that the "NCB community" (apparently a monolith) "blames mothers" for C/S, I am annoyed that the "NCB community" is being painted with a broad brush.

This is the crabs-in-a-barrel thing I was talking about.

I don't so much "pity" C/S moms as I am sorry they usually have so much more to recover from than most V-birth moms, physically. And I feel angry for those who were bullied into them or had them unnecessarily-- which is half or more of them. (If 15% are "necessary" and our rate is 40%...?)

By the way, regarding "too posh to push":

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...tive-cesareans

THE PRIMARY PROBLEM HERE IS NOT OTHER MOTHERS. Not their attitudes, not their support or lack thereof, not their choices or "choices," not their defensiveness or even their extremely rude comments (on all sides). I am not saying they don't hurt or aren't detrimental, but they are not responsible for the barrel we're in, here.

I cannot stress this enough.
10-13-2010 06:35 PM
rainbowmoon I guess I was suggesting support from the natural childbirth community rather than pity of the mom and vilification of the medical establishment. because whether you believe it or not c/s's DO save lives.
10-13-2010 06:28 PM
AutumnAir Respect and communication - both inherent in the concept of informed consent - would seem to the be the key to ensuring that a woman's birth, be it C-section or vaginal, is as 'human/humane' and non-traumatic as possible.

Respect: As birthing women - we can give it to each other, by acknowledging that every one is different and has different stories, and not judging each other. But crucially, we need respect from HCPs - they are the ones who can truly traumatise us, or, on the other hand, ensure as good a birth experience as possible.

Having had one incredibly traumatic birth, and one wonderful UC birth I have run the gamut in terms of respect and lack thereof shown to me. Before and during my traumatic birth I was treated with an abysmal lack of respect. This was in a country where there is a very paternalistic attitude, and I tend to question things, which was seen as an undesirable trait to be 'punished'. But before my second birth, although very stressed due to my tendency to gestate forever, I was consistently treated respectfully. I was always asked to give permission to procedures, my concerns were listened to, and I was treated as someone with a brain who had a right to participate in making decisions about my care. The contrast couldn't have been more stark.

Communication: It's so key for the lines of communication to be open before, during and after the birth. Again, in my traumatic birth, I was deliberately kept out of the loop on what was happening - to keep me under control, and deny me the chance of trying to refuse or fight what they wanted to do. It was simply done to me without a single word to me about it. And there was absolutely no effort after the fact to discuss what had happened with me. This latest birth I was able to sit down with the head MW to discuss various options and go through my concerns with a number of issues.

I remember shortly after my traumatic birth reading a story on a support website for women who'd had traumatic births. Part of my trauma was the fact that DD1 was taken away before I even got to see her - when I finally did see her it was almost an hour later and she'd been poked and prodded, scrubbed clean and swaddled up. I had always imagined taking my warm slippery baby straight onto my chest and cuddling and nursing skin-to-skin and I really mourned the loss of that experience. But this other woman described her traumatic birth story - she had a completely natural labour, was traumatised by the fact that there wasn't time for her to get an epidural as she had planned, and seemed utterly disgusted by the fact that her baby was placed straight on her chest - I think she'd imagined being handed a nice clean baby all wrapped up. It made me cry -I would have *loved* to have had the experience which had traumatised her so much. But it also brought home to me the fact that we all experience things differently, and how important it is to talk about plans and preferences, and walk through as many possibilities as we can.
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