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  Topic Review (Newest First)
08-24-2012 06:14 PM

To the OP:


Just got an email from Net Nanny. They have a free webinar that you can sign up for:

You might want to check it out. We have Net Nanny on the computer that our DD13 uses and I highly recommend it! 

08-23-2012 06:37 AM
pek64 Being raped has nothing to do with you looking at pornography. You did not cause the rape.

I found many of your remarks confusing, because you say one thing while implying something else, in my opinion.
08-23-2012 04:14 AM
rightkindofme I don't actually think it is a good idea for me to be on the internet.
08-21-2012 06:51 PM

I think the best thing you can do is set up Net Nanny and take away her ITouch and give her a simple phone for just texting and talking or just texting. I have a 13yo DD and this is what I would do. I'm pretty sure my daughter has probably already been exposed to porn through her friends. She hardly uses the computer at home and we have NetNanny on when she is using it. She doesn't have a smartphone and this is why! Kids are curious! So, I always assume she's been exposed because it's hard to protect kids today. I long ago learned to arm her with our morals and values. I warned her of the lies of the world when it comes to sex, relationships, clothing, drugs, etc etc. I let her ask questions, sometimes via notes under my door when it's an embarrassing subject for her to bring up out of the blue. I talk about these things with her all.the.time. It's just part of life around here now! 


That said, I was exposed to porn at 11. It definitely destroyed my sense of self-respect in relationships with boys and later men but I didn't have a mother who stepped in to arm me with wisdom and discernment. Sadly, I became a statistic in a number of ways. I definitely do not plan to leave my children without "armor" to make the best choices for hopefully the best outcome in their lives....healthy marriages in which there is mutual love and respect and the chance to experience sex as it was intended to be experienced! 

08-07-2012 08:03 AM
pek64 This thread has been derailed for quite a while, now, so don't try to blame it on me.
08-07-2012 07:43 AM
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post

How do you know how the people in the pornography industry feel? Are you one of those people? If not, why not?

Umm, because Im pregnant with twins and a sahm in a monogomous relationship?


Have you EVER seen a porn documentary? There are only like 30 out on the market. HBO has an entire show about porn stars. There are porn star conventions, porn star reunions, porn star interviews, etc. Open your eyes and ears. Sure, Im sure there are people who dont like their job, but they sure do like the amount of money they are paid for the amount of time they have to be at work.


I used to be a topless dancer, making $500 per night (years ago, before breastfeeding). I only worked two days a week. It was worth it, and if I still had that body, Id do it again in a heartbeat.



The point I was  making was that most of the time adults are choosing this lifestyle. Children are being raped. HUGE DIFFERENCE. There is a huge, huge difference between people who are choosing this and people who are being forced. And, I love how you took that ONE line out of my comment about child porn to try and derail the thread. Good job.

08-07-2012 07:37 AM
pek64 How do you know how the people in the pornography industry feel? Are you one of those people? If not, why not?
08-07-2012 07:05 AM

Looking at porn is in no way equivalent to looking at child porn. Come on, be realistic here. Tons of men look at porn and are not perverts (tons of women too!) It's not that abnormal. Looking at child porn is SO abnormal, and NO ONE here is approving of that. No one. There is a huge difference. Most adults in the sex industry are completely happy being in it and like what they do. ALL children are being forced in to that role and violated or raped. The idea that you are even bringing up child porn as a comparison to people who look at regular porn is nine kinds of offensive. Seriously.





Child porn does not fall under the category of "porn" for most people.

08-07-2012 06:17 AM

I have to say that seeing that you have no clue who I am you have some nerve to say that I should get out and meet people! It seems to me that you're the one who needs to get out and meet the people whose lives have been torn apart by porn. I happen to know many myself. Just because you enjoy it and your partner (you believe) has no problem with it doesn't mean that applies to everyone else..that's as narrow-minded a view as the one I've been accused of.   There's a little girl whose father keeps a stack of child porn...guess where his preferences lie?  That child had to be removed from that home, but not in time to avoid her life being forever changed. 


Porn may not be the cause of every evil thing, but it sure is the cause of many. Don't insult the ones whose lives have been adversely affected.

08-07-2012 06:10 AM

Against my better judgment, I will reply to this because  you seem to need a good dose of reality. I NEVER said that all cases of rape are caused by porn, nor did I imply that porn is the cause of all evils...perhaps I should use the words CAN CAUSE and it would be more acceptable to you. The reality is that there are alot of people  out there who are hurting because of the negative effects of porn. Just because its isn't your reality doesn't mean that it isn't someone else's. 


Btw I haven't had many bad things happen to me and thanks for the virtual hugs, but In the course of my own trials and through my interactions with a lot of  young girls in a school I taught at,  I have met many of these  people...please don't insult us by minimizing how our lives were affected and yes...several of them were raped, abused because of porn addiction and the dark vices they created. I said my piece from a place of knowledge and understanding. I hope this clears it up.

08-07-2012 06:00 AM

I've been there too...its useless trying to get others to understand. The bottom line is if it works for them that's the reality, everyone else's is of no consequence. Thankfully my husband got his life on track and our sex life is now everything it ought to have been, but nobody can tell me it wasn't because of the porn ...that's my reality and that of many others. I hope things improve for you. PM me if you want to know my story, I'd be happy to share it with you.

07-26-2012 01:38 AM

I understand many times its the woman not wanting sex and a partner unfulfilled either way is not fair, but having been the woman desperately wanting sex and having a man uninterested because he had unrealistic expectations of what sex should be I found plenty others in my situation. Thankfully my situation is resolved and things are fantastic between us this last 5 years but that doesn't happen for everyone.

07-25-2012 09:40 AM
Originally Posted by Roxswood View Post

Unfortunately there are many many women out there who have husbands who just don't want to have sex with them much anymore because porn is so much easier and more attractive. When they stop watching porn somehow the desire comes right back.

There are many women out there who don't like sex. Their husbands turn to porn as a release of sexual tension and some of them become addicted.

I peek at the written stuff. My hubby peeks at the other stuff. We bring that energy back to our own marriage bed. And that's the way it should be, two people working together to please each other in a committed relationship.
07-25-2012 08:54 AM

Unfortunately there are many many women out there who have husbands who just don't want to have sex with them much anymore because porn is so much easier and more attractive. When they stop watching porn somehow the desire comes right back.


I'm glad your choices work for both of you, as long as you are being honest with your partner and your actions aren't making her unhappy and you are both satisfied with your frequency and level of activity then great, but you are an adult, this thread is about a girl in her early teens. Porn use during teenage years is associated with lower sexual satisfaction through later life.

07-25-2012 12:29 AM
pek64 Pornography and sexual addiction are very real, and it is insulting to anyone who has had to deal with the fallout that comes with addictions to have it likened to Fruity Pebbles addiction!! When you have, personally, dealt with the emotional, physical, psychological and verbal abuse that addicts inflict on those around them, then, and only then, do you have the right to comment on addiction!!

Is the 12 year old an addict? I don't know. Some people quickly become addicted, whether it is to drugs, alcohol or sex, while some never experience addiction. But do not trivialize the possibilty.
07-24-2012 06:26 PM

Because you also mentioned a sudden change in behavior and personality I would also be talking to her about sexual abuse.  I am a therapist who works with kids and often when they experience a sudden behavior change partnered with a new interest is sex, it is because they are trying to make sense of something they saw or experienced that confused them.  I sincerely hope this is not the case, but, because I have seen it so often and I believe it is better to know and deal with it than to live in the dark and watch your child continue to struggle, I felt I should mention this possibility.

07-24-2012 12:57 PM
Originally Posted by Roxswood View Post
Many women are increasingly more worried about how they look in bed than how they feel and many men are increasingly dissatisfied with their one human partner who has needs of her own and turn to porn as the easy out instead of engaging fully into their marriage/relationship to meet their needs together.


I feel like this is an issue that needs some exploration, because I think those statements propagate a pretty fundamental misunderstanding about what a healthy relationship is about.


First, I will begin with a disclaimer:  i have no doubt that such a thing as "porn addiction" exists, in the same way that Fruity Pebbles addiction can exist.  If your usage of something is compulsive, or interferes with (say) one's work or a healthy relationship with one's spouse or children, then it may be addictive.  But at the same time we have to be careful, because when some people say "My partner is addicted to porn" what they really mean is "My partner looks at porn, even though I don't like it."


If I play golf, and you don't like golf, I am not addicted to golf just because I play a game every now and then.


Second, and more importantly, in my opinion part of a healthy, normal sexual life is self-love.  A husband and a wife (or a boyfriend and girlfriend, or a boyfriend and boyfriend, or a girlfriend and girlfriend, etc) are a couple who, hopefully, explore and develop their sexuality together.  But both of those people also have their own sexual identities.  Nearly everyone has had some form of sexual life and identity before finding a partner; everyone will continue to have some sexual life and identity after their partner passes away or otherwise leaves.  Your sexuality doesn't suddenly become, 100% two adults required to enter this ride just because you got married.


Sometimes, indeed, I want to engage fully with my partner and "meet our needs together", and sometimes I just want to enjoy some private fantasy and self-love.  If my partner decides she wants to do the same, I don't get freaked about it and accuse her of "seeking the easy out" - I assume she's just havin' a little fun, and I'm glad that she can do so, and I'll enjoy my turn some other time.  


In summary: fantasies are good.  Self-love is good.  Having an interior sexual life is good, and I would argue is necessary to the continued growth and health of a partnered sexual life.  Porn an be a perfectly healthy part of anyone's sexual life.  Yes, it's entirely possible for someone to have fixations and problems involving porn, but y'know what?  It's possible to have pathologies in the context of partnered sex life too -- and I'd argue that one partner feeling that if the other partner engages in any fantasy at all they are engaging in some sort of betrayal is one such pathology.


Sorry if this is too OT.  But that's my $0.02.

07-24-2012 03:35 AM
pek64 I feel that the porn industry takes advantage of, uses and abuses people. I do not care to support that. Unfortunately, I married someone addicted to porn. He found his father's stash at 13 or 14 and became hooked. He hid his addiction from me, but it did affect our sex life, and came out eventually.

I agree that the girl may simply be curious. In which case, providing better sources of info and letting her know you are available to talk about sex and your views will hopefully be enough to redirect her. I also agree with adding filters, but keep on mind they are not 100% effective. There may be friends that have acces to porn and will share it, and there are 'backdoor' ways into some sites, which can lead to other sites. I got that info from a library staff worker who imformed me that there were people who bypassed the library filters (without removing them), and got onto sites.

Stay calm. Stay open to hearing her side. And good luck.
07-23-2012 05:40 PM

I'm not going to give you any advice.  I'm going to tell you my story, and maybe it will help you to gain some insight or something into your situation. 


At about the age of 11, my 9yo sister and I stumbled onto some porno mags in a bathroom cupboard at the fire station where my dad works.  That's when I started looking at porn.  Yes, at first I was just curious--my sister and I would sneak in there and flip through the pages and giggle, but that soon gave way to arousal.  I began doing everything I could to find and look at more porn.  I would go through great lengths to sneak magazines I had found into my room to look at.  By the time I was 13, I couldn't go more than a few days without looking at it.  I started out feeling like nothing was wrong, because by this time porn was becoming acceptable and mainstream.  But as time passed, I began to feel "dirty."  A lot of what is in porn is about degradation or exploitation of some kind, and I was starting to pick up on that.  But I couldn't stop.  I tried over and over again to stop looking at it, but could never go more than a week or so.  This continued through college.  I would even look at it when I was supposed to be doing other things, like finishing a term paper.  Instead of going out with friends, I would lock myself in my room and watch porn.  Then when I was 22 I lost my virginity to the man I would end up marrying.  He liked porn, too, and tried to get me to watch it with him, but that wasn't enjoyable for me.  In fact, the more I fell for him, the more porn grossed me out.  I gradually stopped watching it.  Now, at this point, I can't stand porn.  It makes me feel violated when I see it, and when I know that he has watched it I feel sick in the pit of my stomach.  I went from believing that it was "normal" and "healthy" to seeing it as destructive and nasty.  And I am in no way a sexual prude, so don't just pass me off as another frigid Puritan.


Anyway, take from this what you will.  I just thought maybe it would help to see my personal hindsight of what I went through starting at your daughter's age.  Please note that I'm NOT saying your daughter is going to end up an addict, OR that it's just a stage that she'll come out of on her own.  Looking back, I wish my parents had been able to intervene early on.  But definitely not in a way that would have shamed me or made me think sex was bad.  I think I would have appreciated a discussion on the pros and cons of porn, and told that it would still be there when I was 18 but I did not in any way need to see it until then.

07-23-2012 02:25 AM

Porn gives an incredibly screwed up version of sex, which is mainly that good sex is about looking good (particularly the woman) and seperate from relationship issues. Many women are increasingly more worried about how they look in bed than how they feel and many men are increasingly dissatisfied with their one human partner who has needs of her own and turn to porn as the easy out instead of engaging fully into their marriage/relationship to meet their needs together.


Talking to your daughter openly about what she's seen without shaming or anything but helping her to learn to look for healthy values in the things she views (I'm not religious so my version of healthy values would mean sexual equality, focus on health and happiness for both partners and a holistic view of sex and relationships as inseperable parts of a whole).


I would definitely recommend protecting access on the computers because while occasional viewing of porn is unlikely to cause serious harm the more you are exposed to the more effect it is likely to have especially in the teenage years.


Other media can be just as damaging though, girls magazines, music videos, tv shows etc all promote this same ideal, that of making women and girls feel that they have to look a certain way to be acceptable and providing men and boys with fantasy comparison.  


You could suggest she reads The Beauty Myth as she gets older. I think that should be required reading for teenage girls.

07-23-2012 12:44 AM
Originally Posted by oliviajune View Post

Oh and just to throw it out there, like I said in my PP, my mom started talking about sex with me in grade 4. By the time I was in grade 8 it was significantly less awkward and I could talk to her freely. I didn't have sex until I was 18.

Thats a good point. We found porn in the desert by our house ( I know weird) when we were young. My mom was always open with us and I didn't have sex until I was 18 either.

07-23-2012 12:28 AM
oliviajune Oh and just to throw it out there, like I said in my PP, my mom started talking about sex with me in grade 4. By the time I was in grade 8 it was significantly less awkward and I could talk to her freely. I didn't have sex until I was 18.
07-23-2012 12:21 AM
oliviajune My first piece of advice is to not freak out. It's completely natural and normal to be curious about sex and porn at that age. It's only with the advantage of modern technology that it is easier to access.

What you need to do is sit down and give her the ol' sex talk if you haven't already. Explain to her that porn is the Hollywood of sex. It's mostly fake and all for entertainment value. She needs to know that it is ok to be curious but that porn is not something for a 12 year old girl. You want her to have a positive view of sex, not a traumatizing one after seeing something graphic. Maybe tell her that she can email you any questions she may have and you will answer them without discussing aloud unless she wants to. I know that it's hella awkward asking your mom about sex. My mom started when I was in grade 4, I think I would have been a lot more comfortable if I could have asked her things in a semi-anonymous manner.

Viewing porn is not going to screw her up forever, nor is it going to turn her into a sexual deviant or....everything else Caribbean said (give me a break). Porn has nothing to do with rape and is typically between two (or more) consenting, willing adults.

It is not appropriate for a 12 year old to watch porn, but it is also not appropriate to make a huge deal out of it and/or make it into some huge, evil entity. That's not fair to her.

Good luck, OP.
07-21-2012 06:13 PM

I agree with "Don't panic."  The statement "My 12 year old looked at porn" is sort of on the same level as "I went outside, and the sky was blue."  12 years olds are just starting to explore their sexuality, and looking for information on it is one way they do it.  Porn is one sort of information on sexuality.


The solution is to fill the vacuum with positive and age-appropriate information, avoid shaming her, and keep an eye on her online activity.


I don't really have any reaction to the "all porn is horrible and bad and addictive" poster other than to roll my eyes a bit and suggest she meet a few more people, since it's clear from her post that she doesn't actually know any.  Erotic material is like food: it can be delicious, or it can be revolting, and sometimes different people like different things.  In the end, the only universal constant is de gustibus non est disputandum.

07-20-2012 12:33 PM

Don't panic.  Don't lecture.

Do make sure she knows why you don't think it's healthy.

Real sex isn't anything like it.  Watching too much of it will skew her expectations of her own sexual experiences.  You can't get images out of your head once you've seen them.

Put safeguards in place to make it harder for her to access it.

Put your good relationship with her above all else - even your concerns about her behaviour.  This doesn't mean you aim to be her best friend, you're her parent and her guardian, but do make sure that you feel like you're on the same side.


Take her out once a month to do something fun together - keeping your relationship lively and open to the possibility of her turning to you about anything that concerns her.

07-20-2012 08:54 AM

To the OP, I love love love some of the advice that's given out on here!  I think that teenagers are so curious, their hormones are going crazy, they're starting to think about sex and all the feelings that come with it.  I totally agree that the Hollywood sex (just like Hollywood relationships) are not a very good instruction manual.  Porn is meant to tease the brain and doesn't show all the work up that happens before hand to get to the exciting moments.  I started reading Dan Savage's "Savage Love" as a teenager and it had a profound and extremely positive impact on my sexual well-being.  He can be a bit crass, but he sticks to facts.  He is very up to date on all kinds of great info, he's very sex positive (and teenaged sexuality positive, he's given some fantastic advice to teenagers about how to navigate a first sexual relationship, setting boundaries, waiting until you're ready, etc).  He's also very porn positive, that being said he's got a 13 year old son at home whom he does not allow to watch porn, nor does he advocate for teens watching porn (although he has addressed teenagers watching porn before, I can't remember what he said).  


I think the most important part is to keep cool, acknowledge that porn is exciting (because it is!), but that it's not how relationships work.  Support your daughter's budding sexuality as much as you can (even if it weirds you out).  With your support and love, she won't feel the need to engage in sex acts before she's ready (I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that teens with supportive parents who are open about sexuality at home wait LONGER to engage in sex than their abstinence only taught peers).  


I was hanging out with my beautiful BFF last night and her nearly 13 year old son.  My BFF is a total "offbeat mama", who had her son when she was 19.  He is well versed in sexuality (including some things that I was surprised to hear), mostly because his parents split up and my BFF is poly, and they live in a shared house so there's always lots of people around.  He is not damaged or distraught or disrespectful of his own body and own needs.  He is a wonderfully self confident (as much as a 12 year old boy is) human being.  You will not damage your daughter by talking about this, she already knows!!  Just talk to her.  It's SO important to empower our kids to have a sense of their own power and autonomy, that asking about sex is not dirty or wrong.  If you get embarrassed, acknowledge it to her face, but keep pushing through!  You are setting her up to have the kind of relationships you want her to have!


Good luck!!

07-20-2012 08:34 AM
Originally Posted by Caribbeangirl View Post

I'm sorry you disagree, the only thing we agree on here is that both men and women are in porn..which I didn't clarify.  Maybe you are able to believe that porn is 'healthy' and hasn't affected you or your sex life but many women (and men) face this cold, hard reality. Porn IS addictive and it IS destructive...that's something people will debate forever!  I reserve the right to call  it dangerous for young people, since I happen to know of young girls who through porn sites' chat rooms became prey for men, quite a few of them actually going the distance with these men.  Call me biased if you will but I have encountered too many cases of what porn does to people's tastes in the sexual department. Too many cases where people can only get aroused by watching it and when there are some out there who are drawn deeper and deeper into the darkest side of it. Have you ever had to counsel a young person who was  raped by some disgusting man who wanted to act out a scene from one of his porn movies?  Have you ever heard of a young boy being killed because he was buggered with a sharp instrument by two other young boys? What about the rape of an animal by some sicko which then needs to be euthanized?  An 87 year old man rapes a 13 year old relative, an older cousin molesting a pre-pubescent, the rape of a 3 year old girl. Too much and all so close to home. Maybe others can block out these realities because  they aren't 'in your face' like it is where I live. 


Even though Philomom disagrees with me, there is one statement she made with which I is also spiritual. Porn degrades and detracts from what the sexual act is supposed to be...the cleaving of soul and body.  I teach my daughters that sex is for marriage and requires commitment,not just 'love'. This is obviously a case of personal values here...since most people who responded seem to think that a loving relationship is the only requirement. The reality is that porn's imagery is burned into your mind, if you are fantasizing about something you saw or read (there's written porn too) while you are with your husband, you aren't connecting with him as you ought to be and if he is fantasizing about the hot busty blonde on the tv, he's just doing the physical act with you...maybe that's fine with other people. I aim for something higher and I got it.  Someday I hope my girls will have satisfying sex  lives with their husbands and they'll have the right  resources to learn the truth about what sex really is and what it isn't.


The main point I was trying to get across is that we need to protect our children from what porn CAN do to them, even if it hasn't been done to you personally...does anyone want to take the chance that her daughter/son becomes one of the statistics?


Porn does NOT cause rape, RAPISTS cause rape.  In some very specific kinks, porn actually PREVENTS rape, because it allows an outlet to a fetish/kink that is difficult, impossible or downright wrong to act out in real life (I'm using Dan Savage's podcast as a reference, I can't remember what episode this was, but he talks about this issue on a regular basis).  Chances are, the sicko who rapes a 13 year old already had a hold on his fantasy before he found the porn.


We live in a victim blaming culture.  Once we stop pointing fingers at the victims and saying "oh, well you drank too much, your skirt is too short, you were flirting, etc", and start vilifying the men who ACTUALLY DO THE RAPING, we can progress forward, in the meantime...

"Have you ever heard of a young boy being killed because he was buggered with a sharp instrument by two other young boys?" Have you ever read the book "The Way the Crow Flies" by Anne Marie MacDonald?  It's all about a girl (and her whole class) who is sexually abused by their teacher, and her and another friend playing it out accidentally kill another girl.  This has been happening since before porn was even accessible.  A lack of adequate and appropriate sexual education to kids is the real culprit, not porn.  


"An 87 year old man rapes a 13 year old relative, an older cousin molesting a pre-pubescent, the rape of a 3 year old girl." I get it, it's horrifying, and I'm so sorry you carry this, it's a difficult burden to carry and I hope that you're able to share it with someone.  At one point in my life, I could count on one hand the number of my friends who had NOT been sexually abused at some point in their life.  It was horrifying.  But PORN IS NOT THE PROBLEM, RAPE IS THE PROBLEM.  


"The reality is that porn's imagery is burned into your mind, if you are fantasizing about something you saw or read (there's written porn too) while you are with your husband, you aren't connecting with him as you ought to be and if he is fantasizing about the hot busty blonde on the tv, he's just doing the physical act with you...maybe that's fine with other people." This is simply not true, one can't possibly fantasize about someone you just saw on the street?  Or in a movie?  Fantasy is fantasy, it's just that.  If one can't distinguish between reality and fantasy, well, there are bigger problems to address.  And sometimes, one partner isn't really in the mood, but the other one is, and you just sort of go through the motions because you ENJOY pleasing your partner, and because that's what a respectful, mutually satisfactory relationship is all about.  


Anyways, so the point to my post is that the victim blaming needs to stop, that the RAPISTS need to be singled out and dealt with appropriately, that porn is NOT to be blamed for the reasons of rape.  You come across as really really angry, and I wish I could give you a big hug.  It sounds like you've had some really scary things happen to you, and that you're doing the very best to teach your daughters about a healthy sexuality.  I wish you the very best in this!

07-19-2012 08:19 PM

I think this would be a good opportunity to talk to your daughter about what your beliefs about sex are. I think something you have going for you is that you guys have a pretty close relationship already. The moodiness and so on is totally normal (it seems everyone I know with a 12-13 yr old deals with that) along with her looking at porn. And I think it's probably more about curiosity than anything else. It's why I looked at porn. It's why all my friends did, too. It could be that someone stumbled upon something and started talking about it at school or something.


Anyhow, I would put some security up on the internet, then be matter-of-fact about what sex is really all about. My mom didn't do the whole flowery, wait-until-you're-married thing, but she stressed why it's important to be picky, and how it can be more than just a physical act. I'm really thankful that she did that.

07-19-2012 07:37 PM

FWIW, here's my story:


When I was 9, I found a pornographic paperback that my uncle had left at our house (pre-internet days, so you can guess how old I am, haha!) 


I was completely curious & pretty naive at the time.  But somehow I knew my mom would not approve, so I hid it inside a hardbound book while I read it!


She got angry at me & claimed it was about me hiding from her & not about the book, but the bottom line was that I didn't trust her to be OK with me learning about sex, so I hid my curiosity & my sex life from her completely.  


We are all sexual beings and if my mom hadn't been angry, but really matter-of-fact & open with me, we might have had a more honest & close relationship as I grew up.

07-19-2012 06:40 AM

I have removed a couple of posts.  Please do not accuse people of being trolls.  If you suspect someone is a troll, please report it and walk away.  Thanks.


Just to be clear, yes I have seen the reports.  The OP has not broken any guidlines, therefore the thread will not be removed.  There is some great information in the thread that I believe to be helpful to many members of the forum.  If you are uncomfortable discussing this issue on this thread, do not do so. 


I will remove thread access to anyone who can not abide by these guidlines.  If you wish to discuss this with me, PM me.   

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