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  Topic Review (Newest First)
08-29-2012 01:18 PM
lfpalmer
Quote:
Originally Posted by USAmma View Post

I chose to vax my first child on schedule. We traveled to India and I saw first-hand the effects of polio which is still active there. It was very heartbreaking. 

 

 

Oh but actually wild-type Polio is pretty much eradicated in India. What they have now is 47,500 cases of a more deadly polio-like illness that came from the vaccinations there:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22591873

08-28-2012 10:35 AM
Peggy O'Mara

I remember interviewing Dick Moskowitz, MD, years ago and he said something regarding vaccinations that stayed with me for years, "I have more questions than answers." So, while we look for facts to base our vaccine decision on, there are often more questions than answers. And, each of us looks at the facts differently because of our personal experience with disease and other vaccines.

 

Public health folks will see the benefit of vaccines for the whole population, but parents will worry about the effects on their one baby. And, even though we can find facts to back up our decisions either to vaccinate or not to vaccinate, it is ultimately an intuitive and emotional decision. We want the facts to support us, but the "facts" are contradictory. It depends on what you believe. 

 

So, let's not disrespect one another because we make different decisions. The point is being informed, and making a personal decision without coercion that one can live with. Let's no coerce one another with "facts."

 

It's interesting to me that 44% of our community doesn''t vaccinate and 51% does vaccinate. This will help us provide the right forums for our community.

 

Please check out the link in my OP and come give your opinion there if you haven't already.

08-27-2012 06:52 PM
Bokonon
Quote:
Originally Posted by USAmma View Post

 I have just seen the awful effects of these preventable diseases and it's very traumatic for me. We lost a pertussis baby at our hospital in the last year. There are costs to building natural immunity and there are costs of vaccinating. I have been more impacted by what I see in real life in these disease processes while Celiac and those things are quieter and less dramatic, and can be just as damaging in the long term. There is no easy answer.

 

I think this is an interesting observation - in a pediatric ICU, you would likely see more acute disease and illness cases than long-term, chronic health problems, and while both are unfortunate, your perspective would naturally be biased towards preventing what you see.  On the flip side, I have several friends who work with special needs children and are told by many parents that they are confident that vaccines caused their life-long health problems, so those friends are more likely to feel that the effects of vaccinating are traumatic.

08-27-2012 06:40 PM
USAmma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

You make excellent points here.

 

The problem is, the odds are not good, either way. 

 

I do think that, today, a lot of the risk of the potentially very, very serious vaccine-preventable illnesses might have something to do with health and autoimmune conditions caused by previous vaccinations.  For example, we know that vaccines can trigger autoimmune disorders such as celiac disease.  It's no coincidence that a large percentage of autistic children either have celiac, or have serious intestinal issues that are identical to celiac but for whatever reason are diagnosed as merely "gluten intolerance," or, according to recent study, they have a family history of celiac (usually the mother).

 

With undiagnosed celiac, you get intestinal malabsorption and vitamin deficiencies.


Vitamin A deficiency causes severe complications from measles.

 

Vitamin D deficiency causes glutathione depletion. Without glutathione, it is impossible for the body to excrete heavy metals normally--heavy metals like thimerosal (still in flu shots) and aluminum (in most shots).  Result: heavy metals crossing the blood-brain barrier, causing severe neurological problems.

You also make excellent points! I am personally affected by some of the things you mentioned. My husband and oldest daughter (and his mother and sister) have Celiac disease. My nephew (his sister's son) has autism and has been improving on a Celiac diet so he probably has some form of that too. My girls were just dx with Vit. D deficiencies because they stay indoors most of the year due to full time school, and our intense Phoenix heat. I think that there are a lot of toxins in our environment that trigger these things and others. I am sure that the chemicals in vaccine preservatives are not great for us and stress the body (as does the process of being introduced to so many pathogens at once). I also think that we live in a toxic world in general. :-( I have just seen the awful effects of these preventable diseases and it's very traumatic for me. We lost a pertussis baby at our hospital in the last year. There are costs to building natural immunity and there are costs of vaccinating. I have been more impacted by what I see in real life in these disease processes while Celiac and those things are quieter and less dramatic, and can be just as damaging in the long term. There is no easy answer.

08-27-2012 05:54 PM
Taximom5
Quote:
Originally Posted by USAmma View Post

I chose to vax my first child on schedule. We traveled to India and I saw first-hand the effects of polio which is still active there. It was very heartbreaking. 

My second child had some major health issues that lasted 5 years. I chose to delay her vaccinations and saved them for windows where she was healthy. I did this so that they would not stress her body during times of illness, and so that they would actually take, which a lot of immuno-compromised kids have a problem with. 

 

I know that vaccinations carry a certain risk. I also know first-hand as a peds nurse in an ICU setting what pertussis is, and how it can affect a baby for life if the infection is bad enough. It is so hard for me to watch these babies cough until they can't breathe, and it's harder for their parents. I have seen some other very, very serious illnesses in non-vax patients that there were vaccines available for.

 

On the other hand I know a mom whose son (not a patient of mine, a real-life friend) had such a bad reaction that he's now wheelchair bound and neurologically impaired. In 24 hours he went from a toddler just learning to walk, to a severely disabled child. 

 

Either choice you make has risk involved. I just have personally seen the worst-case scenarios over and over again in the non-vax kids enough times to be convinced the odds are more in the favor of vaccines than against them.

You make excellent points here.

 

The problem is, the odds are not good, either way. 

 

I do think that, today, a lot of the risk of the potentially very, very serious vaccine-preventable illnesses might have something to do with health and autoimmune conditions caused by previous vaccinations.  For example, we know that vaccines can trigger autoimmune disorders such as celiac disease.  It's no coincidence that a large percentage of autistic children either have celiac, or have serious intestinal issues that are identical to celiac but for whatever reason are diagnosed as merely "gluten intolerance," or, according to recent study, they have a family history of celiac (usually the mother).

 

With undiagnosed celiac, you get intestinal malabsorption and vitamin deficiencies.


Vitamin A deficiency causes severe complications from measles.

 

Vitamin D deficiency causes glutathione depletion. Without glutathione, it is impossible for the body to excrete heavy metals normally--heavy metals like thimerosal (still in flu shots) and aluminum (in most shots).  Result: heavy metals crossing the blood-brain barrier, causing severe neurological problems.

08-27-2012 10:30 AM
USAmma

I chose to vax my first child on schedule. We traveled to India and I saw first-hand the effects of polio which is still active there. It was very heartbreaking. 

My second child had some major health issues that lasted 5 years. I chose to delay her vaccinations and saved them for windows where she was healthy. I did this so that they would not stress her body during times of illness, and so that they would actually take, which a lot of immuno-compromised kids have a problem with. 

 

I know that vaccinations carry a certain risk. I also know first-hand as a peds nurse in an ICU setting what pertussis is, and how it can affect a baby for life if the infection is bad enough. It is so hard for me to watch these babies cough until they can't breathe, and it's harder for their parents. I have seen some other very, very serious illnesses in non-vax patients that there were vaccines available for. I have seen kids spend weeks in the ICU because of them and waste away and have chest tubes, breathing tubes, and lots of pain. That experience impacts them for life.

 

On the other hand I know a mom whose son (not a patient of mine, a real-life friend) had such a bad reaction that he's now wheelchair bound and neurologically impaired. In 24 hours he went from a toddler just learning to walk, to a severely disabled child. They won a settlement against the vaccine company to cover expenses for his life care.

 

Of course most of the time you get sick, you get better, you get immunity. But just like there are those kids who react to vaccines, there are also kids and adults who die or are damaged because they didn't get vaccinated.

 

Either choice you make has risk involved. I just have personally seen the worst-case scenarios over and over again in the non-vax kids enough times to be convinced the odds are more in the favor of vaccines than against them.

 

Five infant deaths in the UK this year due to pertussis

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jul/27/infant-deaths-whooping-cough-epidemic

 

Story about a 2 month old who died

http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2012/04/death-from-pertussis

08-27-2012 08:32 AM
Adaline'sMama

This is the kind of interpersonal drama that keeps people away from the vax board all together.

08-27-2012 08:11 AM
Marnica
Quote:
Originally Posted by One_Girl View Post


That's such a coincidence, most of the nonvaxers I have spoken to are also uninformed.

 

Guess you haven't talked to the mamas here at MDC yet! orngbiggrin.gif

08-27-2012 05:11 AM
Mosaic From the Vax Forum Guidelines
Quote:
While no one should be labeled as irresponsible or uninformed for deciding to vaccinate, neither should parents here who have chosen to not vaccinate be accused of irresponsibility, not caring for their child, or presenting a threat to others. Please respect each other and refrain from statements that are condescending, hurtful, judgmental, and belittling.

The 3 of you should edit, as the forum guidelines are clear that labeling others as uninformed is not ok.
08-26-2012 08:15 PM
One_Girl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

As are most of the pro-vax mothers, fathers, and pediatricians with whom I have discussed this issue.

That's such a coincidence, most of the nonvaxers I have spoken to are also uninformed.
08-26-2012 06:49 PM
Taximom5
At that point, 100% of my information came from either the pediatrician or the AMA books.  This was before everyone had computers, obviously.
 
(edited per Mosaic's request)
08-26-2012 06:44 PM
Rrrrrachel I hope people who choose I vaccinate to protect their children understand the risks. Even though they are much lower than the risk of the disease, I've never seen anyone claim vaccines are risk free.
08-26-2012 05:31 PM
Taximom5
Quote:
Originally Posted by marsupial-mom View Post

I can see your perspective, but I think on Mothering it's more about the philosophy of the caregivers rather than the vax status of the children. I'm pro-vaccine but two of my kids are newborn infants and thus they are barely vaxxed. Also, I'm a foster mom and I would have to obey the biological parent's wishes. If they were staunchly anti-vax then I'm sure I'd have to respect that and either choose not to accept the placement or refrain from vaccinating them. Similarly, I'm anti-circumcision but if the biomom wanted it done I would have to bring the kid in and get it done (or at the very least, make the baby available for a caseworker to do it). On Mothering, though, my views about these issues are what defines my "tribe", not the status of the children in my care.

 

But the philosophy of the caregivers is usually a result of the vax reactions--or lack thereof--of the children.

 

Before my own children had reactions, I was staunchly pro-vax--to the point where I failed to recognize that vax reactions were even possible.

08-26-2012 10:41 AM
marsupial-mom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

 

So I think it is very important that we differentiate between children who are partially or even fully vaccinated and children who have never been vaccinated. That way, there is less likelihood of misunderstanding down the road.

I can see your perspective, but I think on Mothering it's more about the philosophy of the caregivers rather than the vax status of the children. I'm pro-vaccine but two of my kids are newborn infants and thus they are barely vaxxed. Also, I'm a foster mom and I would have to obey the biological parent's wishes. If they were staunchly anti-vax then I'm sure I'd have to respect that and either choose not to accept the placement or refrain from vaccinating them. Similarly, I'm anti-circumcision but if the biomom wanted it done I would have to bring the kid in and get it done (or at the very least, make the baby available for a caseworker to do it). On Mothering, though, my views about these issues are what defines my "tribe", not the status of the children in my care.

08-26-2012 07:34 AM
Rrrrrachel Yeah, your child isn't unvaccinated, but your philosophy, in my eyes, is just as much "I'm not vaccinating" as someone who never did. It's that present continuous tense.

You know your own position best, though.
08-25-2012 07:55 PM
Taximom5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

So then don't you just fall into "I'm not vaccinating?"

No, because we DID vaccinate.

 

Interestingly, some of the studies on vaccines make just that very mistake: they called children who had not received one specific vaccine (like the MMR) "unvaccinated," even though those children had received several other vaccines, including individual M, M, and R.

 

Then, those studies were quoted by pro-vaccine sites such as LBRB as supposedly proving that "unvaccinated" children had just as much autism as fully vaccinated children.

 

So I think it is very important that we differentiate between children who are partially or even fully vaccinated and children who have never been vaccinated. That way, there is less likelihood of misunderstanding down the road.

08-25-2012 10:33 AM
Rrrrrachel So then don't you just fall into "I'm not vaccinating?"
08-23-2012 05:31 AM
BabySmurf

yeah, i think taximom5 may be right.....my son's reaction wasn't 'severe", but it was enough for me to stop the process......

08-22-2012 03:06 PM
Taximom5

May I suggest an additional choice in the poll?

I vaccinated on schedule--until a severe vaccine reaction made me research vaccines more carefully.

 

I think you'll find that the majority of parents who opt to avoid vaccines do so because either one of their own children, or a child they know, had a severe reaction to vaccines.

08-22-2012 12:53 PM
Peggy O'Mara

Of course. Thank you, Mosaic.

08-22-2012 12:11 PM
Mosaic Thanks, Peggy!
08-22-2012 11:11 AM
Peggy O'Mara

We're talking about renaming the Vaccination Sub-Forums over at Technical Issues and Information and it would be helpful to have an idea of the Vaccine Choices in our Mothering community so that we can provide the appropriate and most helpful sub-forums.

 

Here is a poll to help us know better how to serve you. It's confidential and private and only for the purpose of determining the most appropriate sub-forums of offer our community. Thanks in advance for participating.


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