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Thread: Why is pro-vaccine talk fully supported (even encouraged - it has its own board) Reply to Thread
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  Topic Review (Newest First)
05-20-2014 10:10 AM
macrandall

I can't understand why anyone would want to alienate other parents. Do feelings not matter? I work full time, was only able to breastfeed for 6 months, and vaccinate. But I cosleep, practice gentle discipline, and babywear. Society doesn't support cosleeping, so where should someone like me go? Can't the community be inclusive? I've seen non-vaccinating parents talking about feeling alienated in many groups, but are they the only ones who deserve to feel included?

 

And I don't know if there is a bottle-feeding/formula thread here, I haven't seen it yet. But that would be great. Because I believe in extended breastfeeding, but found myself formula feeding due to circumstances beyond my control. One shouldn't have to live a perfect AP existence to get support for their AP ideals.

10-03-2012 07:20 PM
Adaline'sMama

http://community.babycenter.com/groups/a3332105/supportinfo_for_non-vaccinating_parents

http://community.babycenter.com/groups/a233655/noneselectdelayed_vaccinations

http://themamas.myfineforum.org/viewforum.php?f=196

09-30-2012 11:22 AM
IdentityCrisisMama
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Adorkable~ View Post

Since a large population of MDC choose vax in some way or at least ponders deeply if they should, then it is responsible of MDC to host a intelligent, non blaming place for those that want to ask and learn to talk to each other. Informed choice.

 

MDC provides a place where we can ask these questions, not to the internet at large, but to otherwise like minded folks that in general appreciate questioning everything and doing research.

I agree and would point out that there is no other place on the internet for those questioning vax or considering delayed vax. Whether we decide to vax or delay - this is the only place that I am aware of to get support for those types of doubts and questions. So, the argument that questioning vax and delayed vax resources are available on mainstream forums is not accurate, at least not IME. I am happy that MDC has decide to be a home for those of us seeking some sort of middle ground.

09-30-2012 10:57 AM
pek64 kathy -- I thought you like to debate now and then.
09-30-2012 09:39 AM
Adaline'sMama

Vaccination is a decision that a parent has to continue to be educated about, make desicions about, and research.

 

Usually with circ you have a limited amount of time to make the decision (9 months max if you are pregnant when you start). Having discussions about the pros of circ could cause someone to make a decision that is a one-time decision based on how the conversation in a thread is going at the time of their sons birth. 

 

Talking about the pros and cons of vaccinations has caused many women to change their minds time and time again. While the issue is controversial, its not the same is making a decision that with one cut of the knife changes your kids life forever. 

09-30-2012 09:27 AM
kathymuggle
Quote:
Originally Posted by marsupial-mom View Post

I see the decision to host pro-vax discussion as a community issue - a way of keeping the peace - not an issue about consistency in parenting decisions. It matters not that some posters like the OP think there are strong similarities between pro-vax discussion and pro-circ discussion. The fact is, in the Mothering community the majority of us agree on things like circumcision, spanking, CIO, breast feeding, but our community is far more divided on the issue of vaccinations. The vax forum hosts constant heated debates that often devolve into hateful attacks on all sides, which literally tears the community apart. Hosting a pro-vax forum as well as an anti-vax forum helps keep the community civil.

yeahthat.gif

 

Despite my musings on this thread, and the lack of consistency I see, I have always come down in favour of a pro-vax forum in addition to a non-vax forum, and the above is why.

09-30-2012 08:44 AM
SweetSilver

Thinking about this, I don't know what can come up in a circumcision debate that can be any more testy than what we see in the vaccine debate.

 

Another thought: the vaccine debate is not just about vaccines vs. none, it is also a debate about each individual vaccine, each booster.  For many of us, it is a decision we make over and over again.  It is not just a debate about full schedule vs. not vaccinating.  It is a far more complex debate than circ vs. non-circ.  

 

ETA:  Michelle, we posted at the same time and I repeated what you said about vaccines.  I think I repeated myself, even.  Time for that coffee!

09-30-2012 08:32 AM
MichelleZB

I agree with the general consensus here! No need to host pro-circ dicussion here; that's just cruel and wrong and it's too bad that some US doctors haven't clued in. Vaccination, however, is a far more complex issue and there are members her who vaccinate, who don't vaccinate, and who selectively vaccinate, and I think it's okay to talk about.

09-30-2012 08:08 AM
marsupial-mom I see the decision to host pro-vax discussion as a community issue - a way of keeping the peace - not an issue about consistency in parenting decisions. It matters not that some posters like the OP think there are strong similarities between pro-vax discussion and pro-circ discussion. The fact is, in the Mothering community the majority of us agree on things like circumcision, spanking, CIO, breast feeding, but our community is far more divided on the issue of vaccinations. The vax forum hosts constant heated debates that often devolve into hateful attacks on all sides, which literally tears the community apart. Hosting a pro-vax forum as well as an anti-vax forum helps keep the community civil.
09-30-2012 08:05 AM
kathymuggle
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post

Kathy -- if you do not know, then you are not who I'm asking.
If you want to respond to a question, how do you feel about a debate forum, where topics change?

 

pek - I was responding to your post in general, not just your question. 

 

It will be interesting to see if anyone want a pro-circ forum though - and why.

 

Personally, I like debate. I have no issues with a debate forum existing if MDC sees the need, and would most likely participate. 

09-30-2012 07:57 AM
pek64 Kathy -- if you do not know, then you are not who I'm asking.

If you want to respond to a question, how do you feel about a debate forum, where topics change?
09-30-2012 07:44 AM
kathymuggle

pek…I do not know that anyone here wants a pro-circ forum or is themselves pro-circ.

 

I am questioning why we are allowed to discuss all (or almost all) aspects of one controversial issue (vaccines)  but not another (circ).  

 

Here is the guidelines for the circ board:

 

"Mothering questions routine medical circumcision and advocates for informed consent. TCAC hosts discussion of the reasons to avoid circumcision, the history of the procedure, medical issues and studies, complications, the needs and rights of the child, care of the intact child's penis and other educational topics. We are not interested in hosting discussion on merits of routine infant medical circumcision"

 

How can you advocate for informed consent if you shut down the other POV?

 

At the end of the day, I think MDC needs to decide what it wants.  

If it wants to stick to informed consent - then it should apply it evenly across the board.

If it wants to promote only things that stick within its traditional mandate - then yes, more mainstream talk should not be hosted (and yes, embracing the complete vaccine schedule is very mainstream) 

09-30-2012 07:40 AM
transylvania_mom

There are no pros to infant circ. It is not accepted as a routine procedure in any western society.

But there are pros for vaccines, for some families, in some situations, even most anti-vaxers agree with this.

If a parent vaxes his / her child, the child might be affected or protected by vax. Most kids don't have negative effects due to vaxing. It's our job to decide if it's worth it or not.

Whereas if a parent has the child circumcised, it permanently alters the boy's future sex life. Not for some of them, but for all boys who are circumcised. And it doesn't give so-called protection against anything in infancy.

 

My point is, it doesn't help comparing circumcision to vaccination. It doesn't help the anti-vaccination cause and it might hurt the anti-circumcision cause (which all of us believe in, if I'm not mistaken).

09-30-2012 07:33 AM
pek64 I tried to edit the above post, but was not able to for some reason.

So I'd like to say this about the 'rational' remark.

I am NOT calling parents irrational.

I almost circumcised my son. If it hadn't been for a nurse who told me what the procedure was like, I would have. And I consider myself rationa. What I find irrational is misused of information and misinformation use to present a logical facade on a procedure that (in my opinion) is being performed for the money it gives the doctors, and has *NOTHING to do with the health or well-being of helpless infants. And it is performed without any pain blockage! That is just plain cruel! And irrational!
09-30-2012 07:23 AM
pek64 The more I look into cicumcision, the less rational it seems. I haven't found anything close to a pro.

Look like Daddy -- if Daddy lost a finger in a hunting accident, should Jr have a finger amputated at birth?

Religious reasons -- research I've done shows in Biblical times complete amputation was not performed, as they didn't have the medical capability to perform a complete amputation on a newborn. Egyptians did do complete amputation -- after puberty.

The studies I've seen that are supposed to support circumcision for medical reasons all were flawed, in my opinion.

Is the point that some would like a circumcision debate forum? Or a place where post-circumcision care questions can be answered without being given grief? If you want to discuss circumcision without grief, you'll have to go elsewhere, to a more mainstream site. This one is for those who are out of the mainstream. I would think finding mainstream support would be easier than radical support. Or are the mainstream folks less supportive?

It seems that folks just love a good debate now and then. I enjoy it, too, on occasion. Perhaps a debate forum can be started, where a different topic is selected every week or two.
09-30-2012 06:56 AM
kathymuggle
Quote:
Originally Posted by transylvania_mom View Post

My point is, there are pros and cons for vaxing. There are no pros for circ.

 

There might be pros to infant circ - we are just not allowed to discuss it.  shrug.gif

09-30-2012 06:27 AM
transylvania_mom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennyanydots View Post



Yes, exactly. Not sure why this comes across as a disagreement.
 

My point is, there are pros and cons for vaxing. There are no pros for circ.

 

Sorry to hear about your miscarriage.

09-30-2012 05:06 AM
kathymuggle
Quote:
nm - OT
09-30-2012 05:02 AM
kathymuggle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennyanydots View Post



Sorry if I'm curt. I'm in the hospital recovering from a massive hemorrhage after an incomplete miscarriage. Online forum = much needed distraction. Sorry to go OT.

hug2.gif

09-30-2012 01:47 AM
Jennyanydots
Quote:
Originally Posted by fairejour View Post



My daughter was perfectly healthy. There is no safety issue with being deaf. Without an implant she can learn language, become literate, go to college and be a successful adult. She would be healthy and normal she would just do all that in a different language. Deaf people do not consider themselves as disabled or impaired at all. They consider themselves a cultural and linguistic minority. 

Just as I considered what would be best for my daughter's future and what is worth risking her safety for, the same applies for thoughtful consideration of vaccination.

Guess you missed the foot surgery comparison. My point was simply that these were all elective procedures, the aforementioned were intended to remedy an existing issue, whereas vaccines are preventative in nature.

If you want to get hung up on semantics, I can't stop you. I just chimed in to agree with a PP who said it wasn't a good analogy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by transylvania_mom View Post

You don't know what the chances are for MY children to encounter some specific risks. It's my job to decide if the benefits of vaccines outweigh the risks.

Yes, exactly. Not sure why this comes across as a disagreement.

Sorry if I'm curt. I'm in the hospital recovering from a massive hemorrhage after an incomplete miscarriage. Online forum = much needed distraction. Sorry to go OT.
09-29-2012 09:10 PM
fairejour
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennyanydots View Post


I agree.
This is like comparing my daughter's foot surgery to vaccines. They're medical decisions we make for our kids, and both have pros and cons- that's where the similarity ends. One is a procedure to repair a defect and allow the child to live a more "normal" life than she would have been able to otherwise. The other is a procedure performed on a healthy child. It does not attempt to repair a defect, but instead gambles for a chance of protection against something the child may or may not encounter.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

The vast majority of the Deaf community would not consider being Deaf to be a "defect"- they would be highly insulted by such a statement.
I think fairejoire's analogy is quite good, and much more apt than comparing circ and vaccination.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennyanydots View Post


You can be offended if you want. I think you know what I mean

 

My daughter was perfectly healthy. There is no safety issue with being deaf. Without an implant she can learn language, become literate, go to college and be a successful adult. She would be healthy and normal she would just do all that in a different language. Deaf people do not consider themselves as disabled or impaired at all. They consider themselves a cultural and linguistic minority. 

 

Just as I considered what would be best for my daughter's future and what is worth risking her safety for, the same applies for thoughtful consideration of vaccination.

09-29-2012 07:51 PM
~adorkable~

Since a large population of MDC choose vax in some way or at least ponders deeply if they should, then it is responsible of MDC to host a intelligent, non blaming place for those that want to ask and learn to talk to each other. Informed choice.

 

MDC provides a place where we can ask these questions, not to the internet at large, but to otherwise like minded folks that in general appreciate questioning everything and doing research.

This lets me ask questions and learn and generally feel like I am going to get wise things brought up. That here I will get respected for my questioning and thoughtful decision, rather than scorned or thought a freak for daring to defy the status quo.

 

Sadly in most of the areas, even thoughtful parents asking thoughtful questions about Vax, do in fact get dog piled on by the anti vax folks.

So it is helpful to establish an area where its ok for me to say,

"look feel free to help me understand when the best age is...., or what can i do to help my kids deal with..."

and let me get spared the

"better yet, don't poison your kids and you wouldn't have to ask these questions"

 

That area needs to be on MDC right now, beacsue on most other parenting boards, the response I would get is

"well my doctor told me it has to be at 12m",

and

"giving them lollipops and Tylenol always does the trick!"

09-29-2012 06:17 PM
kathymuggle

MDC has decided we are allowed to share the pros of vaccination (this is very true - even if there are no pro-vax forums).  They allow this as they are pro-informed choice.  Good.  Great.  I agree with them.

 

Circumcision has a pro (probably more than one - but I don't know much about circ).  UTI's are experienced by 1/100 uncirc'ed baby boys and 1/1000 circ'ed baby boys.  That is quite the difference.  Know what happens if you show up at ER with an infant with a fever?  A spinal tap.  

 

http://pediatrics.about.com/od/fever/a/0707_baby_fever.htm

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/07/11/study-confirms-uncircumcised-boys-uti-risk/

 

Maybe I am completely wrong about the above - but how can we sort it out if we cannot discuss it?

 

So we can discuss the pros of vaccines as that supports informed consent, yet we cannot discuss the pros of circ?  Shouldn't informed choice be a given on all medical discussion?  I find it odd.  

 

I am not arguing for circ, I don't think there is enough of a population base to support a pro-circ forum (and I bet it would make the vaccine forums look downright pleasant in terms of nastiness if we had one)…but a thread where someone wants to discuss the pros and cons of circ?  That should be allowed to happen.

09-29-2012 05:47 PM
transylvania_mom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennyanydots View Post


 It does not attempt to repair a defect, but instead gambles for a chance of protection against something the child may or may not encounter.

You don't know what the chances are for MY children to encounter some specific risks. It's my job to decide if the benefits of vaccines outweigh the risks.

09-29-2012 05:08 PM
Jennyanydots
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

The vast majority of the Deaf community would not consider being Deaf to be a "defect"- they would be highly insulted by such a statement.
I think fairejoire's analogy is quite good, and much more apt than comparing circ and vaccination.

You can be offended if you want. I think you know what I mean
09-29-2012 03:37 PM
WildKingdom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennyanydots View Post

I agree.
This is like comparing my daughter's foot surgery to vaccines. They're medical decisions we make for our kids, and both have pros and cons- that's where the similarity ends. One is a procedure to repair a defect and allow the child to live a more "normal" life than she would have been able to otherwise. The other is a procedure performed on a healthy child. It does not attempt to repair a defect, but instead gambles for a chance of protection against something the child may or may not encounter.
The vast majority of the Deaf community would not consider being Deaf to be a "defect"- they would be highly insulted by such a statement.

I think fairejoire's analogy is quite good, and much more apt than comparing circ and vaccination.
09-29-2012 03:05 PM
Jennyanydots
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharlla View Post

see to me the two arent even close to each other. 


I agree.
This is like comparing my daughter's foot surgery to vaccines. They're medical decisions we make for our kids, and both have pros and cons- that's where the similarity ends. One is a procedure to repair a defect and allow the child to live a more "normal" life than she would have been able to otherwise. The other is a procedure performed on a healthy child. It does not attempt to repair a defect, but instead gambles for a chance of protection against something the child may or may not encounter.
09-29-2012 01:47 PM
fairejour
Quote:
Originally Posted by philomom View Post


I agree. I would have agonized over the choice you made. But after careful research, I would have done the same thing most likely. I do realize the deaf community is quite split on advances like this. However, other than risk of infection..... won't this give your child the best hope of developing normal speech?

 

There are risks, just like those with vaccines. In fact, even the risk of death. I believe that an implant will give my child more opportunities than her life without an implant would. I also believe that giving her the meningitis shot before her surgery was less risky than allowing her to have this surgery, which has been know to facilitate meningitis in other kids. But again, other well informed parents believe that sign language is completely non-invasive and will much more easily facilitate communication and language growth than an electrical device in her head. Intelligent, informed people can come down on either side of both debates.

09-29-2012 01:15 PM
philomom
Quote:
Originally Posted by fairejour View Post

Of course they are. I am altering my daughter's body, without her consent, for what I believe to be the greater good. I could easily choose to not alter it, and leave her alone, and there are pros and cons to each side. It is my job as the parent to determine what is best for my child, and make an informed decision. There is science on both sides, but this is a time sensitive situation, just like vaccinating. A responsible parent, doing their due diligence, could come down on either side, just as in vaccinating. 

I agree. I would have agonized over the choice you made. But after careful research, I would have done the same thing most likely. I do realize the deaf community is quite split on advances like this. However, other than risk of infection..... won't this give your child the best hope of developing normal speech?
09-29-2012 12:47 PM
crayfishgirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by fairejour View Post

 

Of course they are. I am altering my daughter's body, without her consent, for what I believe to be the greater good. I could easily choose to not alter it, and leave her alone, and there are pros and cons to each side. It is my job as the parent to determine what is best for my child, and make an informed decision. There is science on both sides, but this is a time sensitive situation, just like vaccinating. A responsible parent, doing their due diligence, could come down on either side, just as in vaccinating. 


I would agree....they are very similar.  I hope your daughter is doing well!

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