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01-25-2013 11:59 AM
AwaitingJuno

Thank-you Demeter for the well wishes.  My son is doing very well - he's now four months old, and thriving and it is so nice to have regained a bit of me that was lost with my daughter's birth.  

 

My wish is that all women have the right to be apprised of the risks and benefits of the care plan they are considering in their particular circumstance and to be empowered to make their own choices and to expect that those choices will be respected and facilitated to the degree possible.

01-22-2013 09:15 PM
demeter888

AwaitingJuno,

 

If I could go back and redo my birth it would be a planned c-section.  My own mom says the same of giving birth to me, and I wish I had listened to her.

 

I am sending my heartiest congratulations to you on getting the birth you wanted and expected.  I too am considering a scheduled cbav for the next bebe.

 

It seems to me after lots of reading that as women we tend to be able to handle just about anything as long as we are reasonably able to prepare for and expect it.  In your case that was not possible because many people failed you in the first birth. Forcing a woman in to doing any type of birth she is terrified of when not necessary is simply not going to be the safer birth, and safety should come before anything.

 

During intensely significant physiological and spiritual endeavors like birth, trauma can happen when our choices are taken away or mishandled or we are misinformed, regardless of what the choice is.  It's a cosmic violation during a cosmic event.

 

I too was disappointed by my first birth, partly I blame myself for using the denial method and focusing on hypnosis and expecting something unrealistic.  The rest of the blame I lay on those who didn't listen to me and understand what I didn't want.  I am now scared of going through anything remotely similar, so my first focus will be finding somebody I am sure absolutely listens to and respects my choices and has every intention of showing up.  Good doctors are out there.

 

Somebody who has created life in their womb is never "selfish" for opting for something that they feel the safest about.       If you reread the more offensive posts that unfortunately found their way to your thread, I think it is people who don't accept themselves and mirroring and intellectualizing their own internal hostility, so I hope you know how much your experience will empower others like me and ignore that nonsense.

11-15-2012 10:53 AM
AwaitingJuno Thank-you Rana.
11-15-2012 09:15 AM
Rana Sylvestris

Congratulations, AwaitingJuno! Best wishes to you and your family.

 

I just wanted to say that I'm so glad you were treated respectfully and that your son's birth was everything you wanted it to be. Your story means a lot to me personally, and I'm sure to many other moms as well. Thanks for your honesty and courage in sharing it.

11-15-2012 04:44 AM
IdentityCrisisMama

Debate posts will be deleted and continued debate on this thread will result in restricted posting privileges. Amyrjrn, your post is helpful to the OP I think because you are relating to her situation. Issues of medicaid reimbursement is way off topic, however, and needs to be edited/deleted (paragraphs 4 &5). 

 

If members would like to relate to AwaitingJuno's birth story by relating a similar story or a professional experience, I think that's fine so long as it's done in the spirit of hearing this mamas story and relating in a supportive way. 

11-14-2012 10:58 PM
amyjrn23 I've been a labor nurse for awhile now and was around when "cesareans on demand" first gained popularity.

In the beginning a lot of OBs wouldn't do them. Then I had one say to me, "If a woman can go through all the risks of surgery: bleeding, infection, risks with anesthesia, only because she wants bigger boobs or fat sucked out of her butt...because it's her body and she can do what she wants to it. Then why can't she have an elective CS just cuz she wants."

Now I'm not a fan of primary elective c-sections in general. But it's not my place to judge other women and dictate what they can do to their bodies. It IS MY JOB to care for and facilitate to the best of my ability, the best possible birth experience for every women...and that's going to very greatly.


Now I've read the entire waiting for Juno blog. What happened to this mom was terrible. It doesn't matter if I wouldn't choose a CS for myself or not.

She went into labor at night while waiting for an elective c-section. So several things probably came into play. Her doc didn't want to get up in the middle of the night. And no one wanted to call in the back up anesthesia for a non-emergency. I have no doubt that this hospital had anesthesia and OR staff on call for emergencies. But this wasn't an emergency. Not a medical emergency, it was an emergency to this mom...just not to the staff. I've seen it happen 100 times. The anesthesia person that everyone loves says, "my kids got a school play tonight so don't call me unless it's an emergency". Well I hate to say it, but a healthy woman in normal labor is not an emergency. And of course you don't tell the patient that...you tell them there are emergency cases going on...or if your OB is at a britney spears concert (yes, real story) you tell the patient he is tied up in an emergency case.

But it's the same in reverse...if I knew this anesthesia doc was gonna bitch that I called him at 2am, I'm gonna have a good story ready. "dr. X this mom suffered horid child abuse when she was younger and had to have reconstructive pelvic surgery. She can't deliver vaginally, it could mess up her repair."

If I were this woman's nurse I would have given her as much iv medicine as I could in early labor. And when it was obvious she was in active labor, I would have sat at her bedside and asked her, "how important is it to you to not deliver vaginally?" And go from there.

Weather it was the doc or the nurses, someone didn't advocate for the patient. And that's a real shame.

Just my 2¢.
11-14-2012 10:51 PM
bmcneal
Quote:
Originally Posted by AwaitingJuno View Post

Thank-you again for the supportive words. Alohamom - I do feel bad that the memories from my daughter's birth are not positive ones for me - I love my daughter and see her birth and her as distinct but it would be wonderful if the circumstances of her birth were more positive. The experience did reinforce my belief all pregnant women need to be supported in the choices they make, and that it's important to understand why the choices are made and accept that different people make different choices for a wide variety of reasons.

 

I felt/feel the same way about my DD's birth. I sometimes think we would have bonded a lot better had the experience been better (for both of us!).

 

Anyway, I forgot the most important thing I was going to say in my first post!!!

 

Congratulations, AwaitingJuno, on the birth of your son! And I'm glad that it seems to have been a somewhat healing birth for you!

11-14-2012 05:53 PM
HappyHappyMommy
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post
AwaitingJuno, please accept my welcome to MDC. I want to say thank you for sharing your birth story(ies) with us. 

 

yeahthat.gif AwaitingJuno, welcome. Congratulations on your little ones and I'm so happy for your that your second birth was a positive experience and I send my support for your first birth experience.

11-14-2012 05:41 PM
IdentityCrisisMama

Heather, I appreciate you wanting to support the OP but please edit your post to remove any references to debate. Thanks! 

11-14-2012 05:06 PM
heatherfd

Can I just say that for someone to have previously had a 3 rd degree tear & what sounds like a difficult labour , elcetive CS is a perfectly reasonable choice .

 

I am amazed at those who call your actions selfish , quote " nature knows best " and seem brainwashed about vaginal v's Ceasar delivery. And the hide of quoting safety concnerns for the baby ?

 

As if your continence & sex life matter nothing ?

 

So choice is only good if you choose what someone else thinks , otherwise you're " uninformed" . How very hypocritical .

11-14-2012 04:11 PM
AwaitingJuno Thank-you again for the supportive words. Alohamom - I do feel bad that the memories from my daughter's birth are not positive ones for me - I love my daughter and see her birth and her as distinct but it would be wonderful if the circumstances of her birth were more positive. The experience did reinforce my belief all pregnant women need to be supported in the choices they make, and that it's important to understand why the choices are made and accept that different people make different choices for a wide variety of reasons.

I do think a spin-off thread elsewhere about whatever is more appropriate than a debate here. Thanks.
11-14-2012 07:05 AM
quiethands

Congratulations on having the birth you wanted. I understand how you felt...

 

I wanted to give birth naturally, so off I went with my first. I went the traditional route because I couldn't get a midwife in time. I had an ObGyn, who I didn't like, and gave birth in the hospital of my choice. I was induced 2 days after my due date, because my OB thought the baby was too big. The labour was okay, I was able to bear it, but the pushing... It was awful. He wanted to give me an episiotomy, I yelled at him like I was possessed... After about 20 minutes of pushing, I finally had my daughter and was getting stitched up after 2nd degree tearing. The care I received from nurses was exceptional, I felt very well taken care of before and after my labour and delivery. My trauma came from the pure pain I felt while I was pushing, and probably the contractions leading right up to pushing. 

 

I cried when I had to make my first bowel movement. I cried when I felt my sexual urges coming back. I cried when I had to go to my 6 week postpartum check up. I almost passed out from seeing the speculum at my first physical almost 2 years after my daughter was born, and my blood pressure was through the roof. 

 

With my second, I went to a midwife. I researched different birthing positions and I got more informed. I laboured for 7 hours at home, another half hour and the hospital and then it was time for me to push. I was on my feet for the whole labour process and when I wanted to push I went on the bed and squatted on my knees. I pushed twice and out he came. No tearing, no back labour, I was in charge of everything. I was so elated that the birth of my 2nd child completely erased the pain and trauma of my 1st. 

 

Now I just feel bad for my daughter, my firstborn. I feel guilty because I wasn't in charge of that pregnancy, I didn't know I could be the one calling the shots. I'm also mad because no one empowers you with that information, no traditional medical doctor I was surrounded by anyway. 

I'm happy for you. I'm happy that you had the power to choose and the power to get what you wanted. Congratulations. 

11-13-2012 06:28 PM
IdentityCrisisMama
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCMoulton View Post

Honestly, since it is the OP's birth story it would be more appropriate to move the off topic elsewhere. Not her fault that the thread was derailed in a crazy way.

Agreed.  In my years at MDC it is more common for a member to post a spin-off thread if they want to continue off-topic/incorrect forum discussions. 

 

I think a birth story is a really sacred thing. AwaitingJuno, please accept my welcome to MDC. I am a fellow mama, a homebirth mama with two very satifactory unmedicated births. I recognize that my birth choices are somewhat unconventional and difficult for some folks to understand. As are yours. I feel as though we are maybe coming from different places but that we have a lot in common as far as how our choices are viewed. I know I would want to share my story here and get support from fellow mamas. I want to say thank you for sharing your birth story(ies) with us. 

11-13-2012 03:03 PM
TCMoulton
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linnaea View Post

Mods--is it possible to move this thread to a better location?  I know it started out as simply a birth story, but it has morphed into something different that several of us have been discussing.  I would really appreciate it, but I understand if it's not possible, thank you.
h

Honestly, since it is the OP's birth story it would be more appropriate to move the off topic elsewhere. Not her fault that the thread was derailed in a crazy way.
11-13-2012 02:43 PM
Linnaea

Mods--is it possible to move this thread to a better location?  I know it started out as simply a birth story, but it has morphed into something different that several of us have been discussing.  I would really appreciate it, but I understand if it's not possible, thank you.

11-13-2012 10:13 AM
IdentityCrisisMama
Quote:
Originally Posted by AwaitingJuno View Post

I'm sorry if I posted in the wrong category - the category said 'birth stories' - and I wanted to share mine.  

You're in the right forum, mama. Congrats on your new little baby and a healing birth! love.gif

11-12-2012 09:08 PM
cynthia mosher

While I appreciate the topic of this thread does open it to discussion of cesarean versus natural birth this is the Birth Stories forum where members share their stories and receive congratulations and well wishes. It is not a place to question the mother's birth choices or debate in favor of or advocate for elective cesarean section birth.  Please offer your congratulations and well wishes to the OP and keep your posting along those lines.  

11-12-2012 08:14 PM
HappyHappyMommy

Thread closed to review reports and posts.

11-12-2012 08:05 PM
erinmattsmom88

Wild Kingdom, it would be selfish of someone to push to have something when there are potentially life threatening consequences of that behavior to yourself and/or someone else when there is supposedly another, safer option. I stated before that childbirth is risky no matter what. If you have an "ideal" candidate for a VBAC, then by all means, go for it. But, anything less than ideal is too risky and should not happen. I think there are a lot of women out there that push the envelope with wanting a VBAC when they just shouldn't do it. Those women are selfish in thinking they can do something they shouldn't when the mindset is more about them and what they want versus negative consequences to them and their child. But like I said, if there is such a thing as an ideal candidate for a VBAC then I think it should be attempted. I was not an ideal candidate so I had no other choice but to have another c-section. Like I said in an earlier post and let's pretend I'm the hypothetical, then yes I would have been selfish to attempt a VBAC with my risk factors.

11-12-2012 07:59 PM
Linnaea
Quote:
Originally Posted by AwaitingJuno View Post

Actually the data I have (large study in BC) showed that the risks of elective c-section accrue to the mother and future pregnancies (placenta previa/accreta etc.) and there is a 67% reduction in serious neonatal morbidity (things like cerebral palsy, brachial plexus, death).  Yes there is an increase in the risk of TTPN, however that tends to result in a NICU stay and does not tend to result in long-term morbidity and/or mortality.  A cesarean at term (39 weeks or later) is the safest way for a baby to be born - even though there are other trade-offs (like the increase in risk of TTPN).  Far more babies need resuscitation after a vaginal birth than after a caesarean birth.  The vast majority of studies show that home birth is significantly more dangerous to the baby (300% more likely to result in death) - but tends to be safer for the mother.  I prefer to get my data from places like PubMed as opposed to childbirth connection...

That being said I totally get why many (the vast majority) mothers prefer vaginal birth - it being more natural and more likely to have a shorter recovery and safer for mothers planning larger families (more than two children).  I support women who choose to VBAC and think that access to hospitals that support this option should be improved.  Regardless of birth choice - most moms want a healthy outcome and should be entitled to information regarding their choices and access to highly skilled healthcare providers who can make whatever choice the mother makes as safe as possible.   

Regardless - I feel as though my choice was a safe choice for myself and for my child.  I am very satisfied with it - and really don't care what others may think of my choice as I would never tell them what they should do with their body as that is their choice.  I do appreciate the supportive comments though.

I apologize-- I didn't realize his was going to become an educated debate over which is safer, hence why I included links to childbirth connection.

So you're saying that the one study you looked at is what you based your decision on? You're joking, right? If that is the case then you really are biased towards c-sections. I have read other studies that show the benefits definitely outweigh the risks for vaginal birth, whether you're looking at it alone or in comparison. If you'd like more details about these studies, let me know. I'm not at my computer right now so it's difficult for me to dig them up.

Thats great you support others with their birth choices although I have a feeling you are sugar coating it a bit to make yourself look better. Someone who "knows" elective csections are safer for many of the babies that are born probably isn't that light and fluffy. And if she is it's probably a cover up.
11-12-2012 07:42 PM
WildKingdom
Quote:
Let me clarify... in the respect of childbirth, no matter what, things are risky. Everyone knows this. However, you can do things to help lessen the risks and have a good outcome. In my case, that didn't happen. Luckily, after that traumatic experience, my son recovered without incident. It is my opinion based on my experience that the reasoning the OP gave for choosing an elective c-section was selfish. What happened to me could have happened to her. I don't appreciate her minimizing the risks of c-section to justify her choice especially after what I went through. I consider my situation as not having much of a choice. She had one and chose the riskier of the two for her own comfort. To me, that is selfish. In my original post I said that I was happy that she got what she wanted, but again, from where I'm standing, what she did doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm not stating my question clearly. Would you feel it is acceptable to scold a mother who wrote a story about her successful VBAC on MDC and call her selfish? VBAC is more risky to the baby, and you yourself stated that the only thing that matters is the child. I am not talking about your birth experience, just this hypothetical situation.
11-12-2012 07:28 PM
erinmattsmom88
Quote:

Also, studies have shown that the risk of rupture is 4 times higher if the mother has had pitocin

Yep, my doctor told me, after I said no induction, that the chances for a successful VBAC will be greater with a natural progression of labor verses being induced.

11-12-2012 07:20 PM
erinmattsmom88
Quote:

According to this, the risk of infant death is higher for VBAC than planned repeat section. That was for low risk women who were considered to be good candidate for VBAC. So, does that make every woman who posts a birth story on MDC about a successful VBAC a candidate for a scolding about her selfish choices?
 

In the end, it still didn't matter. The c-section resulted in my son having a life threatening complication.

 

Let me clarify... in the respect of childbirth, no matter what, things are risky. Everyone knows this. However, you can do things to help lessen the risks and have a good outcome. In my case, that didn't happen. Luckily, after that traumatic experience, my son recovered without incident. It is my opinion based on my experience that the reasoning the OP gave for choosing an elective c-section was selfish. What happened to me could have happened to her. I don't appreciate her minimizing the risks of c-section to justify her choice especially after what I went through. I consider my situation as not having much of a choice. She had one and chose the riskier of the two for her own comfort. To me, that is selfish. In my original post I said that I was happy that she got what she wanted, but again, from where I'm standing, what she did doesn't make much sense to me.

11-12-2012 07:15 PM
AwaitingJuno

Actually the data I have (large study in BC) showed that the risks of elective c-section accrue to the mother and future pregnancies (placenta previa/accreta etc.) and there is a 67% reduction in serious neonatal morbidity (things like cerebral palsy, brachial plexus, death).  Yes there is an increase in the risk of TTPN, however that tends to result in a NICU stay and does not tend to result in long-term morbidity and/or mortality.  A cesarean at term (39 weeks or later) is the safest way for a baby to be born - even though there are other trade-offs (like the increase in risk of TTPN).  Far more babies need resuscitation after a vaginal birth than after a caesarean birth.  The vast majority of studies show that home birth is significantly more dangerous to the baby (300% more likely to result in death) - but tends to be safer for the mother.  I prefer to get my data from places like PubMed as opposed to childbirth connection...

 

That being said I totally get why many (the vast majority) mothers prefer vaginal birth - it being more natural and more likely to have a shorter recovery and safer for mothers planning larger families (more than two children).  I support women who choose to VBAC and think that access to hospitals that support this option should be improved.  Regardless of birth choice - most moms want a healthy outcome and should be entitled to information regarding their choices and access to highly skilled healthcare providers who can make whatever choice the mother makes as safe as possible.   

 

Regardless - I feel as though my choice was a safe choice for myself and for my child.  I am very satisfied with it - and really don't care what others may think of my choice as I would never tell them what they should do with their body as that is their choice.  I do appreciate the supportive comments though.

11-12-2012 07:15 PM
Linnaea
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post


According to this, the risk of infant death is higher for VBAC than planned repeat section. That was for low risk women who were considered to be good candidate for VBAC. So, does that make every woman who posts a birth story on MDC about a successful VBAC a candidate for a scolding about her selfish choices?
http://www.m.webmd.com/baby/news/20120313/are-repeat-c-sections-safer-than-natural-birth?page=3

Many studies place the rupture rate at less than 1% (said by a midwife I respect).  Also, studies have shown that the risk of rupture is 4 times higher if the mother has had pitocin.  One medical journal concluded: In over 21,000 planned labors after cesarean, five babies were reported to have died in association with scar rupture (0.02%).

11-12-2012 07:07 PM
Linnaea

And I can admit that I was selfish for having a UC, though I didn't see it like that at the time.  

 

Thank you for sharing your story, Erin.  I'm very sorry that happened to you and your little boy.  I appreciate you demonstrating how the risks of c-section shouldn't be downgraded to justify people's fears or perceived risks/benefits.  There are HUGE risks with c-section and I think a big reason for that is because it's not natural.  Yes, I said it, NATURAL.  The very thing AP is based on.  We look to nature to guide us when it comes to raising our kids.  Sometimes we look to doctors and other care providers, but nature's wisdom is the foundation.  At least this is how I interpret it.

11-12-2012 07:00 PM
WildKingdom
Quote:
Originally Posted by erinmattsmom88 View Post

Yes, a person is being selfish if they choose to do something that is a risk to another person. PERIOD. I wanted to have a VBAC very badly, but had 7-8 risk factors that made it an impossibility. It would have been extremely selfish of me to insist on doing that knowing my risk factors.

According to this, the risk of infant death is higher for VBAC than planned repeat section. That was for low risk women who were considered to be good candidate for VBAC. So, does that make every woman who posts a birth story on MDC about a successful VBAC a candidate for a scolding about her selfish choices?

http://www.m.webmd.com/baby/news/20120313/are-repeat-c-sections-safer-than-natural-birth?page=3
11-12-2012 06:50 PM
erinmattsmom88
Quote:

So, are people who choose to VBAC selfish? It is a higher risk than having a repeat section. What about people who UC? Someone recently did a survey in the UC forum and the infant death rate was about 6%.

Yes, a person is being selfish if they choose to do something that is a risk to another person. PERIOD. I wanted to have a VBAC very badly, but had 7-8 risk factors that made it an impossibility. It would have been extremely selfish of me to insist on doing that knowing my risk factors.

11-12-2012 06:45 PM
erinmattsmom88
Quote:

Wow. My mind is blown. That's all I've got. Someone comes here to post her birth story and this is the response it gets?

Here's a bit of free advice. When a mom posts her birth story and she is happy about it, the only acceptable response is, "congratulations!" When someone posts a birth story and she is unhappy about it, the only acceptable response is to offer support and sympathy.

As long as people post their personal business on a public forum then they will be exposed to all types of responses and should be prepared for it.

11-12-2012 06:36 PM
WildKingdom
Quote:
Umm. what about the kid? How about doing what's best for the child first. Nothing else matters.

So, are people who choose to VBAC selfish? It is a higher risk than having a repeat section. What about people who UC? Someone recently did a survey in the UC forum and the infant death rate was about 6%.
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