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  Topic Review (Newest First)
12-09-2012 03:06 PM
kathymuggle

She just has some sort on anti-Christmas thing going on, and it is not about you smile.gif  (a conclusion I am sure you have come to).

12-09-2012 11:30 AM
Storm Bride
Quote:
Originally Posted by lanamommyphd07 View Post

From the movie Pink Flamingos:

 

"There are two kinds of people. MY kind of people and a--holes. It's rather obvious which category YOU fit into. Have a nice day!"

 

This particular quote runs through my head often when reading Facebook comments. I think the woman is not your kind of people.

 

;-) L


lol

 

She's not, really - but she's an old friend, and kind of like family, yk? Besides, as I said upthread, she's got a lot of good stuff going for her, too. She's just kind of...unthinkingly snooty. (Everyone I know  who has her on Facebook has made this observation at least once, so at least I know it's not just me).

12-08-2012 08:36 PM
lanamommyphd07

From the movie Pink Flamingos:

 

"There are two kinds of people. MY kind of people and a--holes. It's rather obvious which category YOU fit into. Have a nice day!"

 

This particular quote runs through my head often when reading Facebook comments. I think the woman is not your kind of people.

 

;-) L

12-08-2012 08:01 PM
Storm Bride
Quote:
Originally Posted by lanamommyphd07 View Post

I couldn't help but chime in after you left such a thoughtful response to my thread, Storm! Your post brought back memories of when I was engaged in the crunchy competition. I had a gaggle of friends who seemed to be angling for the "most crunchy", and many of their comments would be "you didn't really let your child buy a Lalaloopsy, did you? Do you know where those are made? Do you know what is involved in them? Do you know what is offgassing in them? Do you know they could be chokey?" or things like "that is a really cute recipe, but did you know it is loaded with dead food? I wouldn't feed that to an enemy!" 

 

Well, all that kind of brought me down. I was friends with them because in many ways they stretched my creativity in seeking my own ideals, but they were so rigid in their beliefs that there was no wiggle room. I would have my own little self-doubts about enjoying Target, and then think "huh..now in what ways have I just been brainwashed? I can't tell ___ and ___ about my secret Target trip...but good thing it wasn't Walmart"...

 

I'm really, really lucky, because my super crunchy friends just don't do that. There are certain gums/candies that one of them won't allow her kids to have, but it's "no - they can't have that", not "OMG - WHY did you buy that??" and it makes a difference, yk?

 

It was those tiny little doubts that made me super-sensitive when others would comment on my shopping or cooking or travelling or breastfeeding or cosleeping, etc., practices. Sure, I've engaged in ultra-materialistic holidays, and they feel bad, so if someone said "that sounds materialistic" I'd very likely say "mmmhmmm. That's exactly what it was, and I really enjoyed it" but I would still be a bit resentful that they pointed out something I am myself trying to "not" do even though what they said was true (with a little t). But then again, I am currently in Christmas recovery, so a comment like "I hate the materialism of Christmas" resonates with me. I'd probably hit the like button...but I get your frustration.

 

I think the pointing it out is where she gets to me. The more I see her interactions on Facebook (not just with me), the more I realize she's got some odd lines about what to say, and when to say it, and most of all how to say it, yk? I don't really mind the commenting about the materialism of Christmas, as such - I just think "this is why I loathe Christmas" is a bit harsh as a post in response to someone else's post about the holidays, yk?

 

I think shopping will = materialism when someone is swept away in shopper fever, splurging on stuff nobody wants because it's a good deal, or a Black Friday steal. They still spent the money and ended up with a deal that turns out useless. That would be the materialism piece. True minimalists still go to a store now and then. Even the most die-harder frugal minimalist tends to want a fresh store-bought bra once in a while (at the very least). I think even the super-crafters who do all hand-made have a potential to get materialistic about the holidays.

 

I think one of the reasons it kind of bugged me was that she NO idea what kind of shopping I was talking about. I could have been buying yarn to make sweaters (she's known my family for a long time, and my mom did/does a lot of crocheting, and I never cared about money and such - when we knew each other well, she was 1000X more into having all the latest and greatest than I've ever been, yk?), or baking supplies (I actually was talking partly about that), or toys or clothes for a charity drive. I've never been a shopper - in our younger days, she used to make catty comments about the way I dressed, precisely because I didn't care about all the stuff I was "supposed" to care about - OPLs, brand names, whether or not something was "in", etc.). But, she's always been a bit odd.

 

The only shopping fever I've ever suffered from is a tendency to go nuts on stocking stuffers...but those are still useful and things we need, or will at least use (as much as all love glowstick bracelets, I'm not going to claim we "need" them).

 

L

 

Thank you. This has been an interesting conversation. She obviously has really strong feelings about this stuff (there have been several other comments, threads, links, etc.), and I've decided to just no respond to anything she says until after the holidays. Even a thread where I was agreeing with her (about the way some parents judge women for being childfree), it got all weird and tense. I think she just assumes people are judging her, unless they flat out say, "I agree 100%, K".

12-08-2012 07:43 PM
lanamommyphd07

I couldn't help but chime in after you left such a thoughtful response to my thread, Storm! Your post brought back memories of when I was engaged in the crunchy competition. I had a gaggle of friends who seemed to be angling for the "most crunchy", and many of their comments would be "you didn't really let your child buy a Lalaloopsy, did you? Do you know where those are made? Do you know what is involved in them? Do you know what is offgassing in them? Do you know they could be chokey?" or things like "that is a really cute recipe, but did you know it is loaded with dead food? I wouldn't feed that to an enemy!" 

 

Well, all that kind of brought me down. I was friends with them because in many ways they stretched my creativity in seeking my own ideals, but they were so rigid in their beliefs that there was no wiggle room. I would have my own little self-doubts about enjoying Target, and then think "huh..now in what ways have I just been brainwashed? I can't tell ___ and ___ about my secret Target trip...but good thing it wasn't Walmart"...

 

It was those tiny little doubts that made me super-sensitive when others would comment on my shopping or cooking or travelling or breastfeeding or cosleeping, etc., practices. Sure, I've engaged in ultra-materialistic holidays, and they feel bad, so if someone said "that sounds materialistic" I'd very likely say "mmmhmmm. That's exactly what it was, and I really enjoyed it" but I would still be a bit resentful that they pointed out something I am myself trying to "not" do even though what they said was true (with a little t). But then again, I am currently in Christmas recovery, so a comment like "I hate the materialism of Christmas" resonates with me. I'd probably hit the like button...but I get your frustration.

 

I think shopping will = materialism when someone is swept away in shopper fever, splurging on stuff nobody wants because it's a good deal, or a Black Friday steal. They still spent the money and ended up with a deal that turns out useless. That would be the materialism piece. True minimalists still go to a store now and then. Even the most die-harder frugal minimalist tends to want a fresh store-bought bra once in a while (at the very least). I think even the super-crafters who do all hand-made have a potential to get materialistic about the holidays.

 

L

12-06-2012 11:39 AM
Storm Bride
Quote:
Originally Posted by expecting-joy View Post

The quoting and fonts colors are really off in that post.

 

Sorry if my post wasn't helpful. I did not glean from your original post that she was trying to make you feel bad. I also didn't mean by giving her something nice that you should spend any or a ton of money on her. Sometimes people miss the relationships they don't have at the holidays. Maybe this is when she misses not having children. You may never know. Or maybe you post a lot about the shopping. I don't know. I don't think there's an answer here that will make you feel better. I would just hide the post and move on.

What do you mean the quoting and font colours are off? I replied, and then coloured my replies blue. That's what I usually do within a quote.

 

I've posted once about shopping. She replied in less than a minute.

 

I don't think she was "trying" to make me feel bad. But, her response of "I refuse to buy into that", when "that" is what I just finished saying I was doing, was rude. She's since made several other comments (mostly on her own wall) in the same vein.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about making me feel better. I was upset when I posted the thread, but have simply been continuing the conversation with people who have replied since then.

 

I don't do any crafts that would enable me to give her something that she would call nice. She likes expensive stuff, and has very high standards. There's nothing I could get her, on my budget, that she would call "nice". She also doesn't want anything. She's posted a few times about this on Facebook since my original post. She considers any gifting at Christmas - purchased, handmade, whatever - to be materialistic, and the result of corporate manipulation, and states, quite clearly, that the only reason people buy/make gifts at Christmas is because corporations tell them to.

 

I've wondered if she misses having kids, but I don't know if she does or not. She's also stated that, if she had kids, Christmas would be even worse, because she "refused to buy into that", and wouldn't give them gifts, and then the'yd feel deprived.

 

So, yeah - no idea what's going on with her about Christmas, but she has no hesitation about telling other people what they're doing wrong, if they don't do things the way she would.

12-06-2012 11:13 AM
expecting-joy

The quoting and fonts colors are really off in that post.

 

Sorry if my post wasn't helpful. I did not glean from your original post that she was trying to make you feel bad. I also didn't mean by giving her something nice that you should spend any or a ton of money on her. Sometimes people miss the relationships they don't have at the holidays. Maybe this is when she misses not having children. You may never know. Or maybe you post a lot about the shopping. I don't know. I don't think there's an answer here that will make you feel better. I would just hide the post and move on.

12-04-2012 10:11 AM
Storm Bride
Quote:
Originally Posted by expecting-joy View Post

I think it's best to not take these things too personally, unless you find fault in yourself. I think most people are responding to their own pain when they post things like that. I find posts about Christmas and birthday buying difficult because I cannot shower friends and family with the gifts I would like to and it is difficult in my life with my particular friends and family members to express that love and affection in other ways. In my immediate family, I just wish I could buy things that I would like to give, because that would make me happy. But when I read long posts about the huge expenditures and extravagant holidays I do feel sad about what I am not able to do.

 

I can understand that, but this was a very differnt situation. This woman could buy everything my family owns, probably including our minivan, and it wouldn't really hurt her, financially. And, I wasn't posting a lot about our plans - simply said that I was behind on my shopping.

 

I've actually decided not to engage with her anymore until after the holidays. We had another...not really a fight, but she got really weird...over having kids vs. being childfree. I have no problem with people choosing to be childfree and was very clear about it (she was talking about how people judge her like she's a freak, because she's a woman who doesn't want kids, and I agreed with her completely). This ended up with another bizarre comment about Christmas and shopping and how the fact that she "refuses to buy into" the idea of Christmas gifts is another reason she doesn't want kids. For whatever reason, this is obviously a big deal to her right now, and I'm just not going to get involved in these conversations, yk?

 

It has nothing to do with the poster, so "I" don't respond, but I can totally see how this friend of yours is just venting, not judging you.

 

Oh, she was judging me. She's one of the most judgmental people I've ever met - and often over really weird things. But, I'm over taking it personally. She's obviously got some issues about this stuff, and anything I say about Christmas, kids, etc. is going to push her buttons right now. I have a feeling she may have blocked my Facebook feed for the holidays, which would probably be best for her, honestly.

 

Why don't you send her something nice.


I can't afford to send her anything that would fall under her definition of "nice"...and I don't think she'd want it, anyway. Sh'es really, really negative about Christmas gifts, in all forms. I don't think she exchanges gifts with anybody, including her partner, nieces and nephews.

 

I'm guessing the holidays depress her a bit, like they do many people. There is so much energy all around about making, buying, giving ~ and it does get or can get overly materialistic. But, try to see that people post about themselves, not about you. 

 

Thanks. I knew that already, but I really figured it out after the whole parent/childfree thing a couple days ago. It was really, really odd.

 

blowkiss.gif

 

Thanks. smile.gif

12-04-2012 08:54 AM
expecting-joy

I think it's best to not take these things too personally, unless you find fault in yourself. I think most people are responding to their own pain when they post things like that. I find posts about Christmas and birthday buying difficult because I cannot shower friends and family with the gifts I would like to and it is difficult in my life with my particular friends and family members to express that love and affection in other ways. In my immediate family, I just wish I could buy things that I would like to give, because that would make me happy. But when I read long posts about the huge expenditures and extravagant holidays I do feel sad about what I am not able to do. It has nothing to do with the poster, so "I" don't respond, but I can totally see how this friend of yours is just venting, not judging you. Why don't you send her something nice. I'm guessing the holidays depress her a bit, like they do many people. There is so much energy all around about making, buying, giving ~ and it does get or can get overly materialistic. But, try to see that people post about themselves, not about you. 

blowkiss.gif

11-27-2012 08:51 AM
rightkindofme

I deleted facebook because I couldn't deal with the emotional stress of having to read so much idiocy. I would totally be smacking her around if I still had an account. This is how I fake tact.

 

In your shoes I would be chanting "Ignore it; ignore it." But that kind of thing bugs me. I feel like at least some of the attitude about Christmas comes from the privilege of having all of your needs met all of the time. Your kids (and mine) get things they genuinely need for Christmas along with a few small wants. Christmas isn't really much about "wants". Its about spending time together and enjoying having your -needs- met in slightly more festive ways than usual.

 

I wish people would stop raining on my parade. In my house we do a lot of things like soap, socks, underwear, jammies, food. We do start preparation months in advance. We make a lot of what we give away and that requires *shopping for Christmas* in July. :P

11-26-2012 10:12 PM
Storm Bride
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmcneal View Post

 

I agree with the previous posters who have said maybe the comment was more about the commercialism of Christmas as a whole, rather than it being directly aimed at you.

 

Oh, the way it played out, it was definitely partly directed at me, but...she's kind of oblivious about this kind of stuff. I don't think she even realized that it could be taken as a slam.

 

DF is the same way. He got indignant when places started advertising that they would be open on Thanksgiving, and everyone saying, "Oh, it was just a dinner with my family. I *really* NEED this TV." or whatever. Honestly it made me angry, as well. Basically, I think there are a *lot* of good posts on what she might have meant.

 

That kind of stuff makes me insanely angry. I have major issues with the marketing industry, in general...and I despise the way they deliberately try to undermine family connections, traditions, parent/child relationships, etc., in order to make a sale.

 

On a separate note, when we went to pick out my engagement ring the first time, DF and I, too, had a go around. He wanted to get me something *huge*, 3/4 carat, 1 carat, and I didn't want anything *nearly* that big, for a lot of reasons, afraid I would lose it, I'm not a huge fan of jewelry, but would want to wear it every day, so wanted something small, worried about scratching/damaging the ring, worried about scratching myself redface.gif (and did, as well as DD later on. greensad.gif ) I wanted something tiny, and we finally "compromised" on a 1/4 carat. It was beautiful, I'll admit, but still big to me. This time, I told him I want cubic zirconium(?).

 

DH and I have been married for a little over ten years. I still sometimes look at my ring, and think "this thing is huge". I know that, by a lot of standards, it's not huge at all. And, it is pretty, but it has a high setting, and it does seem to get in my way. I lost it - right around Christmas, actually - a few years ago, because I take it off a lot. It just seems kind of...intrusive. I think dh still thinks it's "too small". If it were any bigger, I suspect I'd only wear it for something like an anniversary dinner. I can't even remember what size it is, but, to me, it's big. The part that frustrated me at the time was that he really did seem to think I was just trying to make him feel better for nothing able to afford a big rock or something...sooooo not me.

11-26-2012 10:01 PM
bmcneal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post

 

I don't think you're disparaging anything. I agree completely. I am lucky enough to have a family that values handmade gifts as much as, if not more than, storebought ones. I'd like to start making more gifts again, but...I lack talent. I'll probably start candlemaking again next year (dd2 will be old enough, and hopefully have settled down enough, for me to feel safe handling hot wax around her), but I'm an amateur, and not a particularly gifted one. While i think it's the thought that counts, I don't think that thought should be "here - this looks really crummy, so I thought you should have it". redface.gif

 

DH and I had a go around when he bought my engagement ring. The one we were trying to decide on had a stone a big bigger than I wanted, but the setting was lovely, and I was leaning towards it. We had very little money, and dh wanted to go up in size. He thought it was "tiny", and I don't think he truly believed me that I didn't want a bigger diamond, and felt the diamond was already somewhat too big. I honestly think it took several years before it truly sunk in that I wasn't playing some kind of "oh, you shouldn't have" game with him. And, why? It's mostly because our culture has been saturated with the idea that a man who really loves a woman will buy her the biggest possible diamond he can afford, even if "afford" means putting himself into debt for a year. The culture has been equally saturated with the belief that every single woman alive wants a gigantic diamond and rich husband. *sigh*

 

In theory, something like Secretary's Day is a nice idea - honour assistants, secretaries, etc. for their work (because it can be a lot of work for the pay). But, somehow, it means - like everything else - go spend lots of money. Mind you, Secretary's Day bothers me less than most in that respect - when I had a job, my boss was where I got the money I lived on, so my boss giving me cash was more meaningful than other people doing so, yk?

 

I agree with the previous posters who have said maybe the comment was more about the commercialism of Christmas as a whole, rather than it being directly aimed at you. DF is the same way. He got indignant when places started advertising that they would be open on Thanksgiving, and everyone saying, "Oh, it was just a dinner with my family. I *really* NEED this TV." or whatever. Honestly it made me angry, as well. Basically, I think there are a *lot* of good posts on what she might have meant.

 

On a separate note, when we went to pick out my engagement ring the first time, DF and I, too, had a go around. He wanted to get me something *huge*, 3/4 carat, 1 carat, and I didn't want anything *nearly* that big, for a lot of reasons, afraid I would lose it, I'm not a huge fan of jewelry, but would want to wear it every day, so wanted something small, worried about scratching/damaging the ring, worried about scratching myself redface.gif (and did, as well as DD later on. greensad.gif ) I wanted something tiny, and we finally "compromised" on a 1/4 carat. It was beautiful, I'll admit, but still big to me. This time, I told him I want cubic zirconium(?).

11-25-2012 12:39 PM
Storm Bride
Quote:
Originally Posted by beanma View Post

Storm Bride, I'm not sure what your (wealthy) friend's comment was all about. 

 

I could easily see some of my fb friends making a similar comment, but it would be about Christmas being too materialistic (as in people buying something/anything just because it's the shopping season—witness camping out in front of Best Buy overnight to try to get the best deal on a PlayStation or whatever vs spending Thanksgiving Day with your family/friends),

 

I do think there was a lot of that. It was just kind of weird the way she assumed that any Christmas shopping at all was the same thing as rioting over towels.

 

or about them being defensive about you getting finished with Christmas shopping "so early". Some people (like me) are procrastinators and the idea of someone else being finished with Christmas shopping in October or November makes them feel defensive. Reminds me a bit of the people who have different parenting philosophies (breastfeeding vs bottlefeeding, cosleeping vs cribs) and how defensive each side can seem. 

 

I don't think it's that. I don't think she does any Christmas shopping at all.

 

Since your friend is wealthy it seems unlikely that it's the spending/shopping that's bugging her, but maybe. It also seems unlikely that she would be defensive about you getting done early since she seems like she must be pretty together to have achieved the success she has, but maybe. It could be that she's defensive/jealous/envious of your family. Since she had such a rough upbringing I'd guess she doesn't have any close family and doesn't celebrate a close family holiday.

 

As far as I know, she does get together with both her siblings and their kids (well, when her sister is in town - her sister lives in a different city). She was very attached ot her siblings, especially her little sister.

 

My DH is not into Christmas shopping because he doesn't like the hype and being told to give gifts at a certain time of year. He's very generous and enjoys giving, but on his terms when he feels like it.

 

Yeah - I had a friend like that when I was younger, too.

 

I don't like Christmas shopping because I don't like crowds and I don't like shopping in general. I can probably count on two hands the number of times I go to the mall in one year. I also get stressed out about buying the right gift and one that the recipient will enjoy. I worry that it won't be good enough. Then I overbuy and I worry that I spent too much. I also have some issues with my family of origin and find the holidays stressful because of that. 

 

This is actually why I shop early. I'm not very organized, and am a massive procrastinor, in general. It's just that even thinking about shopping during the crazy few weeks before Christmas freaks me out. I trained myself a long time ago to create an artificial deadline for my Christmas shopping, so that I can avoid the crowds. It doesn't always work, but when it does, my shopping works much, much better, and causes me much less stress.

 

I do think Christmas in general, especially in the US, can practically be a celebration of acquisition and consumption and is far too materialistic for far too many people who go buy a bunch of plastic made in China junk that will fall apart in two months and get thrown into the landfill. I do think spending time with family, exchanging carefully considered gifts, listening to music, taking in a show/pageant, decorating can make a lovely celebration. When I think "Christmas shopping" I don't think "blacksmith lessons" I think http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2012/11/22/black-friday-deals-shopping-thanksgiving/1721731/ and I think I don't want to do that.

 

I think this last sentence is really the key. I think she heard/saw "Christmas shopping" and thought the same thing. That's just so not my style that it kind of blew my mind. I'm probably a bit materialistic by MDC standards, but Christmas has never been about what I can get or about going out to buy, buy, buy. I kind of like Christmas shopping (the picking out the right gift part of it), but I hate shopping, in general, so I try to keep my time in the stores under control, yk? I've always been like that. Maybe she just doesn't remember...she and my sister used to go on mall-based spending sprees whenever they could get their hands on money, and she may misremember that I was into that, too.

 

I do find the consumer frenzy a bit bizarre, but we have more stuff than space, as it stands. I don't need a bunch more.

11-25-2012 12:09 PM
beanma

Storm Bride, I'm not sure what your (wealthy) friend's comment was all about. 

 

I could easily see some of my fb friends making a similar comment, but it would be about Christmas being too materialistic (as in people buying something/anything just because it's the shopping season—witness camping out in front of Best Buy overnight to try to get the best deal on a PlayStation or whatever vs spending Thanksgiving Day with your family/friends), or about them being defensive about you getting finished with Christmas shopping "so early". Some people (like me) are procrastinators and the idea of someone else being finished with Christmas shopping in October or November makes them feel defensive. Reminds me a bit of the people who have different parenting philosophies (breastfeeding vs bottlefeeding, cosleeping vs cribs) and how defensive each side can seem. 

 

Since your friend is wealthy it seems unlikely that it's the spending/shopping that's bugging her, but maybe. It also seems unlikely that she would be defensive about you getting done early since she seems like she must be pretty together to have achieved the success she has, but maybe. It could be that she's defensive/jealous/envious of your family. Since she had such a rough upbringing I'd guess she doesn't have any close family and doesn't celebrate a close family holiday.

 

My DH is not into Christmas shopping because he doesn't like the hype and being told to give gifts at a certain time of year. He's very generous and enjoys giving, but on his terms when he feels like it.

 

I don't like Christmas shopping because I don't like crowds and I don't like shopping in general. I can probably count on two hands the number of times I go to the mall in one year. I also get stressed out about buying the right gift and one that the recipient will enjoy. I worry that it won't be good enough. Then I overbuy and I worry that I spent too much. I also have some issues with my family of origin and find the holidays stressful because of that. 

 

I do think Christmas in general, especially in the US, can practically be a celebration of acquisition and consumption and is far too materialistic for far too many people who go buy a bunch of plastic made in China junk that will fall apart in two months and get thrown into the landfill. I do think spending time with family, exchanging carefully considered gifts, listening to music, taking in a show/pageant, decorating can make a lovely celebration. When I think "Christmas shopping" I don't think "blacksmith lessons" I think http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2012/11/22/black-friday-deals-shopping-thanksgiving/1721731/ and I think I don't want to do that.

11-25-2012 11:11 AM
Storm Bride
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlyzombiecat View Post

Like a list of specific gifts we should exchange for each wedding anniversary.

 

I hadn't thought of that. Those lists are really old - I wonder about the rationale behind them. The traditional lists are quite different than the modern ones, but it is still kind of a strange idea.

 

Indeed, we are all supposed to gush or feel impressed over diamond rings. I don't even like diamonds.

 

I do like the diamond for a ring I wear every day. I have this hang-up about my jewelry clashing with my clothes (it's really kind of ridiculous - what could I possibly wear that would seriously clash with a small sapphire or amethyst?), so I like the colourless stone. But, I agree. I think the coloured stones are much prettier - they seem more alive and interesting. I have nothing against diamonds, and I certainly don't object if another woman loves them (it's not like I think that loving sapphires is morally superior, yk?), but I hate the cookie cutter "women love diamonds" message. "Diamonds are a girl's best friend"? Seriously? My best friend is my dh, not an overpriced sparkly rock.

 

My stocking better have a piece of fruit- even if it isn't an orange. :)

 

Exactly! Even if we had a box of oranges in the house (and we usually do at Christmas), I'd be sad if there wasn't one in my stocking. It's a tradition, and I love them. These days, my kids get an orange and a pomegranate. This contributes to their insanely overstuffed stockings, but they love pomegranates.

11-25-2012 10:56 AM
onlyzombiecat
Quote:
Originally Posted by meemee View Post

advertisers want to redefine what special means to us ... and they ARE getting to people. 

 

 

Good point. I suppose it is easier to see when it is being aimed at a different culture with different traditions.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by journeymom View Post
But- there are soooo many examples of 'traditions' that are manufactured by marketing and advertising, that have the ring of comfy, heart-felt motivation.  That amazingly enough require people to spend money.  

 

Like a list of specific gifts we should exchange for each wedding anniversary.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post

The culture has been equally saturated with the belief that every single woman alive wants a gigantic diamond and rich husband. *sigh*

 

Indeed, we are all supposed to gush or feel impressed over diamond rings. I don't even like diamonds.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post I'd be so sad if my stocking didn't have an orange in it. They may not be worth much, in dollars, but in the toe of a stocking, they're pure gold.

 

My stocking better have a piece of fruit- even if it isn't an orange. :)

11-24-2012 09:55 PM
phathui5

I love Christmas. I love the lights, the decorations, the events, the stories, the music, the cookies, lots and lots of cookies...

 

My preceptor decorated the birth center the day after Thanksgiving and it's so great to see the rooms decorated. 

 

The only part that makes me a little sad is not being able to get more for the kids, but they have lots of stuff already and it's not like they won't get anything.

11-24-2012 05:00 PM
Storm Bride
Quote:
Originally Posted by journeymom View Post

 hope I can say this without sounding like I'm disparaging what Storm Bride has described as her sincere pleasure in searching for, buying and giving Christmas gifts to her loved ones.  Because I'm not.  I'm sincerely thrilled to have, just today, spent more than $100 on a LEGO Lord of the Rings kit for ds. I'm excited to give it to him, I'm excited to sit with him and help put it together. This will be so much fun!

 

But- there are soooo many examples of 'traditions' that are manufactured by marketing and advertising, that have the ring of comfy, heart-felt motivation.  That amazingly enough require people to spend money.  These traditions didn't grow organically out of Society's creative processes, out of the will to worship or to ritualize the spirit of giving.  Birthday cards specifically to a Dear Niece, from Your Aunt, Boss's Day, Secretary's Day, wedding rings that cost a minimum of 3 times the groom's monthly salary, the myriad little things you're supposed to do/provide/display at a wedding that simply add up to a lot of money for the party store. and on and on...

 

I don't think you're disparaging anything. I agree completely. I am lucky enough to have a family that values handmade gifts as much as, if not more than, storebought ones. I'd like to start making more gifts again, but...I lack talent. I'll probably start candlemaking again next year (dd2 will be old enough, and hopefully have settled down enough, for me to feel safe handling hot wax around her), but I'm an amateur, and not a particularly gifted one. While i think it's the thought that counts, I don't think that thought should be "here - this looks really crummy, so I thought you should have it". redface.gif

 

DH and I had a go around when he bought my engagement ring. The one we were trying to decide on had a stone a big bigger than I wanted, but the setting was lovely, and I was leaning towards it. We had very little money, and dh wanted to go up in size. He thought it was "tiny", and I don't think he truly believed me that I didn't want a bigger diamond, and felt the diamond was already somewhat too big. I honestly think it took several years before it truly sunk in that I wasn't playing some kind of "oh, you shouldn't have" game with him. And, why? It's mostly because our culture has been saturated with the idea that a man who really loves a woman will buy her the biggest possible diamond he can afford, even if "afford" means putting himself into debt for a year. The culture has been equally saturated with the belief that every single woman alive wants a gigantic diamond and rich husband. *sigh*

 

In theory, something like Secretary's Day is a nice idea - honour assistants, secretaries, etc. for their work (because it can be a lot of work for the pay). But, somehow, it means - like everything else - go spend lots of money. Mind you, Secretary's Day bothers me less than most in that respect - when I had a job, my boss was where I got the money I lived on, so my boss giving me cash was more meaningful than other people doing so, yk?

11-24-2012 04:31 PM
journeymom
Quote:
Originally Posted by meemee View Post

advertisers want to redefine what special means to us ... and they ARE getting to people

 

case in point. one of my friends is an adult immigrant chinese. now her relationship with her father and mother are completely different than most western cultures. they are very close but respectful. it isnt filled with chocolates and i love you cards. i was over at her house and the tv was on and a news report came on about valentines day. hallmark is now big in china. she stopped and listened. and it showed this sweet high schooler holding up a teddy bear and a picture of her dad. my friend was SEETHING. the girl was saying she was so excited to get a teddy bear for her dad because of the whole aping the west and following the hallmark ad. by the way she was dressed adn the way her dad was dressed in the photograph of him she was holding up, my friend knew they had similar dynamics like her family. buying a teddy bear for her dad and saying i love you would have been so disrespectful to the relationship she had. she was seething because she could see the high schooler fall for the marketing. it was so strong that she was willing to give something up and introduce this new dynamics in her relationship with her parents. i am sure the parents just rolled their eyes at her and nothing much changed between the girl and her dad. but yeah advertising sucks. 

 

THANK YOU,  that's so well said. 

 


I hope I can say this without sounding like I'm disparaging what Storm Bride has described as her sincere pleasure in searching for, buying and giving Christmas gifts to her loved ones.  Because I'm not.  I'm sincerely thrilled to have, just today, spent more than $100 on a LEGO Lord of the Rings kit for ds. I'm excited to give it to him, I'm excited to sit with him and help put it together. This will be so much fun!

 

But- there are soooo many examples of 'traditions' that are manufactured by marketing and advertising, that have the ring of comfy, heart-felt motivation.  That amazingly enough require people to spend money.  These traditions didn't grow organically out of Society's creative processes, out of the will to worship or to ritualize the spirit of giving.  Birthday cards specifically to a Dear Niece, from Your Aunt, Boss's Day, Secretary's Day, wedding rings that cost a minimum of 3 times the groom's monthly salary, the myriad little things you're supposed to do/provide/display at a wedding that simply add up to a lot of money for the party store. and on and on...

11-24-2012 12:52 PM
meemee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post

 

They may not be worth much, in dollars, but in the toe of a stocking, they're pure gold. Advertisers and marketers don't want us to think like that.

advertisers want to redefine what special means to us ... and they ARE getting to people. 

 

case in point. one of my friends is an adult immigrant chinese. now her relationship with her father and mother are completely different than most western cultures. they are very close but respectful. it isnt filled with chocolates and i love you cards. i was over at her house and the tv was on and a news report came on about valentines day. hallmark is now big in china. she stopped and listened. and it showed this sweet high schooler holding up a teddy bear and a picture of her dad. my friend was SEETHING. the girl was saying she was so excited to get a teddy bear for her dad because of the whole aping the west and following the hallmark ad. by the way she was dressed adn the way her dad was dressed in the photograph of him she was holding up, my friend knew they had similar dynamics like her family. buying a teddy bear for her dad and saying i love you would have been so disrespectful to the relationship she had. she was seething because she could see the high schooler fall for the marketing. it was so strong that she was willing to give something up and introduce this new dynamics in her relationship with her parents. i am sure the parents just rolled their eyes at her and nothing much changed between the girl and her dad. but yeah advertising sucks. 

11-24-2012 12:30 PM
Storm Bride
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viola View Post

Yes, especially on facebook, and I'm sure I'm guilty of it myself.  But it's just so odd when you make a statement that sometimes is just an aside or what you consider a humorous commentary or deliberately satirical, and then people come and argue with you over what feels like the tiniest thing, and interpret your words literally. And then people share things that are new to them but just aren't to me, and I see the same memes over and over again.  Like the whole, "let's get rid of the materialism of Christmas."  Yeah, haven't we been saying this for years?  My mom was complaining about this when I was a child and I'm almost 46!

 

You know...I think part of the problem with this is the media saturation. The tv ads, catalogues, etc. all really strongly promote the whole "you don't love your children/spouse/parents if you don't spend yourself into a year's worth of debt on this jewelry/clothing/gadget" message. I know the materialism is out there (have you seen those Good Friday video clips??), but I sometimes wonder if it's quite as rampant as we all think it is, yk?

 

I remember about 20 years ago, before I went mostly tv-free. I was watching something, and a Christmas ad came on. I don't remember any of the details - what product, what store, or whatever. I just remember a bunch of the "beautiful people" dancing around in pseudo-winter gear (lightweight sweaters, hats and gloves), and the tag line, "because who wants an orange in their stocking?" in this snotty tone of voice, like people who put an orange in a stocking, instead of a pile of CDs, or movies, or smal electronics, or jewelry, or whatever, are just ripping off the recipient, because who on earth wants a crappy little orange? I was incensed. I'd be so sad if my stocking didn't have an orange in it. They may not be worth much, in dollars, but in the toe of a stocking, they're pure gold. Advertisers and marketers don't want us to think like that.

11-24-2012 12:11 PM
Viola
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyllya View Post

I don't know if it's a side-effect of super high self-esteem or what, but some people seem to have a tendency to process any ambiguous messages with whichever possible interpretation makes someone else look the stupidest. And even people without this tendency will do it occasionally, of course.

 

Yes, especially on facebook, and I'm sure I'm guilty of it myself.  But it's just so odd when you make a statement that sometimes is just an aside or what you consider a humorous commentary or deliberately satirical, and then people come and argue with you over what feels like the tiniest thing, and interpret your words literally. And then people share things that are new to them but just aren't to me, and I see the same memes over and over again.  Like the whole, "let's get rid of the materialism of Christmas."  Yeah, haven't we been saying this for years?  My mom was complaining about this when I was a child and I'm almost 46!

11-24-2012 11:44 AM
Storm Bride
Quote:
Originally Posted by VisionaryMom View Post

This is very much how I feel as well. A couple of people I know posted on Facebook these really pointed, judgmental posts like "we're spending Thanksgiving weekend with family, NOT on material goods." Honestly my thought is "grow up. Accept that life is more nuanced." We did all of the family stuff. The kids decorated. We're doing several crafts this weekend, going to the park, etc. But yes, we went to Toys R Us. We got DS a physics kit to make his own robot, and we got an awesome deal on a huge bin of art supplies for DD. Somehow those things, which my children will LOVE and which will enrich their lives, is bad because of the weekend we bought them? That makes no sense to me and is no better of an outlook on life than people who spend, spend, spend thinking it will make them happy. Liking gifts - and enjoying buying people gifts they will like - isn't bad. 

 

This. Exactly. You phrased that really well.

 

I also agree about the whole "which weekend we bought them" aspect. I don't like to shop crowded sales, but it applies to buying them for Christmas, too. DD2 loves drawing and colouring. So, we're going to give her a whole new package of markers, and a bunch of fresh crayons. This would be perfectly okay with my friend in September (back to school!), but it's not okay in December (Christmas! Horrors!). That just makes no sense to me at all.

 

I honestly think the real issue with all this is the overabundance of stuff in our society, in general. People talk about lack of appreciation, but...you know, Laura Ingalls appreciated getting her very own tin cup for Christmas, because it was a big deal - she didn't have to share with Mary, anymore. What would a tin cup mean to my kids, who have access to an entire cupboard of glasses and coffee mugs? It's not just that people are too consumeristic and materialistic these days - it's that gifts kind of exist on a different level when everybody has enough, yk? But, I think the impulse to give gifts to loved ones is inherent in people - there seems to be some form of gifting in every culture I've ever heard of. That's not going to go away, just because we're not suffering from a serious lack of material goods, yk?

 

I know ds1 will love the blacksmithing classes. I know dd1 will love the ice skates. I know ds2 will love having his own chess set (the only one we have is part of a "games chest" and it's not portable). I don't think that's really about materialism.

11-24-2012 08:35 AM
VisionaryMom
Quote:
Originally Posted by One_Girl View Post

I don't think Christmas is too materialistic. In our family it is a time we think of each others happiness and spend time being a family. We do buy gifts but I don't think buying something special that will bring joy to someone once a year as a materialistic act.

This is very much how I feel as well. A couple of people I know posted on Facebook these really pointed, judgmental posts like "we're spending Thanksgiving weekend with family, NOT on material goods." Honestly my thought is "grow up. Accept that life is more nuanced." We did all of the family stuff. The kids decorated. We're doing several crafts this weekend, going to the park, etc. But yes, we went to Toys R Us. We got DS a physics kit to make his own robot, and we got an awesome deal on a huge bin of art supplies for DD. Somehow those things, which my children will LOVE and which will enrich their lives, is bad because of the weekend we bought them? That makes no sense to me and is no better of an outlook on life than people who spend, spend, spend thinking it will make them happy. Liking gifts - and enjoying buying people gifts they will like - isn't bad. 

11-23-2012 06:40 PM
Storm Bride
Quote:
Originally Posted by 34me View Post

I have another thought - If she has rossed several socio-economic lines, most of the time she is around people that are also at her "level" for lack of a better word.  Those folks might think nothing of buying their kids/family/friends expensive items as that is what they can afford to do.  Ex - my sister bought a third car because her daughter wasn't comfortable in my sister's while learning to drive.  Outrageous in my world but pretty normas in my sister's.  And she can afford to pay cash so no worries there.  But your friend might be thinking OMG, those presents could have fed my family for a year! forgetting that that is not who you are.

 

I hadn't even thought of that. She also does still see at least some members of her family of origin semi-regularly. They haven't crossed the lines that she's crossed, so she may well have her face rubbed in the contrasts on a regular basis. I hadn't thought about the most likely lifestyle of her current peers. (Actually, one of the funny parts of this whole thing, at least to me, is that she routinely spends money at a level I can't even imagine - outfitting her home with a complete gym, so she doesn't have to go the public one, for instance.)

 

And look for steel toed boots at Wal-Mart.  Not my favorite place to shop, at all but they do have them.

 

I found a good place for the boots, but thanks.

 

Way cool about the classes.  I know a custom blacksmith and he won't even mentor much because of liability.  And my 14 year old took glass blowing in school last year in 7th grade.  It was amazing.

 

In 7th grade? I'm amazed that was allowed. Glass blowing can be pretty risky. That sounds like a very cool class.

 

I'm sure ds1 will have to sign stacks of forms, waivers, etc.

11-23-2012 06:31 PM
34me

I have another thought - If she has rossed several socio-economic lines, most of the time she is around people that are also at her "level" for lack of a better word.  Those folks might think nothing of buying their kids/family/friends expensive items as that is what they can afford to do.  Ex - my sister bought a third car because her daughter wasn't comfortable in my sister's while learning to drive.  Outrageous in my world but pretty normas in my sister's.  And she can afford to pay cash so no worries there.  But your friend might be thinking OMG, those presents could have fed my family for a year! forgetting that that is not who you are.

 

And look for steel toed boots at Wal-Mart.  Not my favorite place to shop, at all but they do have them.

 

Way cool about the classes.  I know a custom blacksmith and he won't even mentor much because of liability.  And my 14 year old took glass blowing in school last year in 7th grade.  It was amazing.

11-23-2012 02:08 PM
meemee

StormBride - your explanation of her childhood explains a lot. research has shown and i also strongly believe it that when you have been in some sort of abuse that's the only way you know how to be - even after the abuse was gone, and it passes on to the kids and takes a couple of generations to get over (of course ur friend doesnt have kids so no generations). i have friends who were abused or whose mom was abused and they have the similar situations. and its hard not to let their comments bother you. most of the time i am good and understanding but some of them touches a nerve for me and it really affects me deeply.

 

one of dd's best friend has gone through horrendous abuse. he's had to figure out how to not be unpleasant around kids and dd has learnt just coz they are being unpleasant some times, doesnt mean they are bad. 

 

when i think of materialism its more from the business point of view profit mongering aspect that makes me not like xmas. but i dont hold it against any parents who want to shower their children with presents. i think the first two years against the wishes of my then dh and then xh i went hogwild buying dd stuff. like at 2 she had 7 pairs of shoes. what a waste. within a few months she outgrew them. mind you i was buying for a child who did not like toys. and i was trying all these toys to entice her. and she wasnt.

 

i have to admit the blacksmith school sounds really cool. i got dd some woodwork classes and she so enjoyed it. we have seen a traditional blacksmith at work so it would be SOOO cool to actually do it. 

11-23-2012 01:12 PM
Storm Bride
Quote:
Originally Posted by delightedbutterfly View Post

For some reason this year more than ever I have heard and seen (on facebook or other sites) people complaining about Christmas. It starts too early, you can't wrap presents or shop before Dec 1, the music is driving them mad...

 

I know. It's weird, but I'm feeling the opposite way this year. I'm enjoying the music and decorations more than I usually do at this point.

 

Ok I too hate to see Christmas decorations in Costco in Aug and Crafts in Michaels in July, but it's not THAT bad. And I do find most stores *try* and wait until after Halloween. 

 

I don't mind the crafts stuff in July. Some crafts are really time consuming and a person would want to start them early.


I get the people who say that Christmas decor shouldn't get up until after Rememberance/Veterns day, but I don't believe that the two are in any way similar. People decorate for Halloween, they decorate for Christmas, decor has nothing do to do with remembering and honoring... But to each their own.

 

But my issue is that I shop early. I start in September and I aim to be done all the relative and kid shopping by Dec 1. It's not much but it still adds up. In December I like to focus on wrapping, holiday parties, last minute forgot about gifts and gifts for my husband and the stockings for our family. I hate to be stressed out, I enjoy shopping and picking out/making meaningful gifts for our family and trying to surprise my "doesn't care about stuff but loves really cool surprises" husband. 

So to me it's also annoying when people say "Shopping now, you are crazy/too organized/too early" or whatever... I realize it there's issue but usually it's not that bad. This year though? It seems to be HORRIBLE! 

 

Too me shopping early is a frugal and budgeting thing to do. I can buy gifts spread out over a handful of paycheques and not have that "dreaded Christmas credit card" bill everyone else complains about in Jan.

 

I agree. I'm not as organized as I used to be, but I always aimed to finish in October, if possible. I almost never managed that, but I did finish earlier than most people I knew. It's been a while, though. I don't seem to be that on the ball these days.

Ok end of my rant tangent to your rant lol.gif it's their issue for whatever reason. I'm going to enjoy getting and giving gifts to our family (which is my favorite part of christmas) and my husband will enjoy his decorations (his favorite part) and hopefully it'll be as stress free as possible considering the Inlaws are coming and staying for Christmas... I think it's time to hop over to THAT thread 2whistle.gif

 

Gifts aren't my favourite part of Christmas (that would be either the baking or the lights/decorations everywhere, I think), but I love them. I especially love watching people open their gifts from me.

11-23-2012 12:58 PM
delightedbutterfly

For some reason this year more than ever I have heard and seen (on facebook or other sites) people complaining about Christmas. It starts too early, you can't wrap presents or shop before Dec 1, the music is driving them mad...

 

Ok I too hate to see Christmas decorations in Costco in Aug and Crafts in Michaels in July, but it's not THAT bad. And I do find most stores *try* and wait until after Halloween. 

I get the people who say that Christmas decor shouldn't get up until after Rememberance/Veterns day, but I don't believe that the two are in any way similar. People decorate for Halloween, they decorate for Christmas, decor has nothing do to do with remembering and honoring... But to each their own.

 

But my issue is that I shop early. I start in September and I aim to be done all the relative and kid shopping by Dec 1. It's not much but it still adds up. In December I like to focus on wrapping, holiday parties, last minute forgot about gifts and gifts for my husband and the stockings for our family. I hate to be stressed out, I enjoy shopping and picking out/making meaningful gifts for our family and trying to surprise my "doesn't care about stuff but loves really cool surprises" husband. 

So to me it's also annoying when people say "Shopping now, you are crazy/too organized/too early" or whatever... I realize it there's issue but usually it's not that bad. This year though? It seems to be HORRIBLE! 

 

Too me shopping early is a frugal and budgeting thing to do. I can buy gifts spread out over a handful of paycheques and not have that "dreaded Christmas credit card" bill everyone else complains about in Jan. 

Ok end of my rant tangent to your rant lol.gif it's their issue for whatever reason. I'm going to enjoy getting and giving gifts to our family (which is my favorite part of christmas) and my husband will enjoy his decorations (his favorite part) and hopefully it'll be as stress free as possible considering the Inlaws are coming and staying for Christmas... I think it's time to hop over to THAT thread 2whistle.gif

11-23-2012 12:54 PM
Storm Bride
Quote:
Originally Posted by journeymom View Post

Blacksmithing lessons? So cool! 

 

I know. I'm so glad I found them. My first choice of date was full, but the following weekend still had space. There are apparently only four students in each class, but I guess it's not a hugely popular activity. He wants to learn to blow glass, too...that's much more expensive.

 

The opposite of high self-esteem, I think.  More like, people compensate for some insecurity by making put-downs that put themselves in the best light, even if it means putting someone else down in the process.


This is my experience, too. I don't think it's always true, but it does seem to be the rule.

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