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  Topic Review (Newest First)
12-11-2012 12:56 PM
Chicharronita

If my kid got tics after being exposed to mercury in vaccines, I would find that pretty significant. 

 

I wonder if further studies were done on this.

12-11-2012 12:38 PM
Rrrrrachel

yeah, like i said, some.  

 

I'm not actually claiming mercury exposure makes you smarter, it implies in the abstract that the significant differences both ways are so small they probably aren't really that significant.

12-11-2012 11:51 AM
Chicharronita
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Here's a study that specifically looked at ethyl mercury exposure and found no evidence of mercury poisoning. In fact, children exposed to mercury actually performed better on some tests.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa071434

 

On some but not all; for instance they found poorer performance on attention and executive functioning (an umbrella term that covers a lot of things like being able to control your behavior appropriately and to think of the future repercussions of your actions).

 

 

 

There's a lot more information in the full abstract. Like:

 

 

Quote:
Among boys, there was a beneficial association between mercury exposure and identification of letters and words on the WJ-III and a detrimental association with behavioral regulation and motor and phonic tics according to the ratings of evaluators. An association with tics was also found in one HMO in the screening analysis of the CDC's Vaccine Safety Datalink4and an analysis of the General Practice Research Database.21 The replication of the findings regarding tics suggests the potential need for further studies. 

 

Bolding mine.

12-10-2012 04:23 PM
Rrrrrachel Here's a study that specifically looked at ethyl mercury exposure and found no evidence of mercury poisoning. In fact, children exposed to mercury actually performed better on some tests.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa071434
12-10-2012 04:09 PM
WildKingdom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

And successfully done, too, unfortunately.  May I suggest that we get back to the OT, and if anyone suspects any posts of shill-dom or troll-dom, please use the handy little flag button to alert the mods.

 

Back on topic:

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

nhonestly I find that hard to believe. It's very easy to find online cme that has no competing interests. I have to do 50 hours a year and I've never had trouble.

 

 

Could you post some examples?  I've read from many sources that even cme that sounds like it has no competing interests is almost always funded by an innocent-sounding front group for a pharmaceutical company, which does make sense, as most cme is about new and updated medications and diagnostic practices regarding the prescribing of such medications.

 

You're misinformed.  First of all, it is not true that most CME is about updated and new meds.  Not even close.

 

There is a ton of CME out there.  Yes, you can get it from going to a steak dinner with a "speaker."  That's just a drug sales pitch poorly disguised as CME.  In general, if you want real CME, you have to pay for it.

 

For example, I'm currently doing the Medical Knowledge Self Assessment Program.  It's a 12 module review program. Each module takes about 20 hours to complete and earns a certain amount of CME.  It's put out by the ACP, and costs $519.00.  I'm getting a lot out of it, because it's a comprehensive internal medicine review, and I need to re-certify my boards this year.

 

There are plenty of other options out there.  Most tertiary care hospitals run multiple programs.  I got a flyer in the mail today run by Harvard (Orthopedics review for primary care doctors).  http://cme.hms.harvard.edu/cmeups/pdf/00332530.pdf  Just one example.  And, if you look at the syllabus, no sessions on medications.

 

Doctors do a lot more than just prescribe meds.  

12-10-2012 04:09 PM
Rrrrrachel
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Well, at least we are back on track, lol, and thanks, actually…..

Concerning number 1, this is what the abstract says:

"The mean number of autoimmune disorders was greater in families with autism; 46% had two or more members with autoimmune disorders. As the number of family members with autoimmune disorders increased from one to three, the risk of autism was greater, with an odds ratio that increased from 1.9 to 5.5, respectively. In mothers and first-degree relatives of autistic children, there were more autoimmune disorders (16% and 21%) as compared to controls (2% and 4%), with odds ratios of 8.8 and 6.0, respectively. The most common autoimmune disorders in both groups were type 1 diabetes, adult rheumatoid arthritis, hypothyroidism, and systemic lupus erythematosus."

The implications to me are thus: if you have autoimmune issues in your family, it might make sense to further investigate environmental triggers for autism (ex: anti-depressents in pregnancy).  Some people consider vaccines a trigger, some don't.  Likewise, vaccines are known to trigger auto-immunity flare-ups in some people, however I know viruses such as the flu can trigger autoimmune issues as well.  It might be a bit of a numbers game:   according to Cochrane, 96% of people do not get the flu (or flu strain that are VAD)  each year.  So, people have a 4% chance of getting the flu (1 year in 25 if all things are equal) but if they get a flu shot yearly. However  not all risks are equal.  If , for example, the risk from the flu shot is 1 in 1000 , but the risk from the flu is 1 in 3, it might make sense to get the flu shot even if the flu shot is yearly while your chance of getting the flu are only 4%. I really do not know (and the whole issue is confounded by uncertainty around what is and isn't a vaccine reaction).   I have no idea if childhood vaccines are implicated in auto-immune disorders - there are years between when babies are vaxxed and auto-immune issue typically show up.  We would need a large scale of truly unvaxxed versus fully vaxxed to ascertain that.  In any event, the first link might be most interesting to those with auto-immune issues, and trying to figure out how triggers for both autism and auto-immunity come into play.

Getting an actual virus is a much bigger immune event than getting a vaccine, fwiw.

Tome that abstract is another study in the column showing Autism is largely genetic.
12-10-2012 04:08 PM
Rrrrrachel This may need a new thread.

Here's a great piece on thimerosal and autism. In particular it has a table comparing symptoms of autism and symptoms of mercury poisoning that I think is really interesting.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/111/3/674.full?ijkey=3e03b77f87b04c5befb9f9d74958cb446e5b6d75&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

Here is an incredibly well referenced discussion of the various hypotheses on how vaccines cause autism.

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/48/4/456.full#ref-20
12-10-2012 03:56 PM
kathymuggle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

1. This study doesn't mention vaccines?
2. This is te mercury poisoning = autism thin again. He makes some awfully strong statements in the abstract in curious how he backed up.
3. This is showing a correlation between vaccine uptake and autism rates, I guess? There are a lot of reasons those two things could be correlate other than causation.

Well, at least we are back on track, lol, and thanks, actually…..

 

Concerning number 1, this is what the abstract says:

 

"The mean number of autoimmune disorders was greater in families with autism; 46% had two or more members with autoimmune disorders. As the number of family members with autoimmune disorders increased from one to three, the risk of autism was greater, with an odds ratio that increased from 1.9 to 5.5, respectively. In mothers and first-degree relatives of autistic children, there were more autoimmune disorders (16% and 21%) as compared to controls (2% and 4%), with odds ratios of 8.8 and 6.0, respectively. The most common autoimmune disorders in both groups were type 1 diabetes, adult rheumatoid arthritis, hypothyroidism, and systemic lupus erythematosus."

 

The implications to me are thus: if you have autoimmune issues in your family, it might make sense to further investigate environmental triggers for autism (ex: anti-depressents in pregnancy).  Some people think vaccines might be a trigger, some don't.  Likewise, vaccines are known to trigger auto-immunity flare-ups in some people, however I know viruses such as the flu can trigger autoimmune issues as well.  It might be a bit of a numbers game:   according to Cochrane, 96% of people do not get the flu (or flu strain that are VAD)  each year.  So, people have a 4% chance of getting the flu (1 year in 25 if all things are equal) but they get a flu shot yearly. However  not all risks are equal.  If , for example, the risk from the flu shot is 1 in 1000 , but the risk from the flu is 1 in 3, it might make sense to get the flu shot even if the flu shot is yearly while your chance of getting the flu are only 4%. I really do not know (and the whole issue is confounded by uncertainty around what is and isn't a vaccine reaction).   I have no idea if childhood vaccines are implicated in auto-immune disorders - there are years between when babies are vaxxed and auto-immune issue typically show up.  We would need a large scale of truly unvaxxed versus fully vaxxed to ascertain that.  In any event, the first link might be most interesting to those with auto-immune issues, and trying to figure out how triggers for both autism and auto-immunity come into play.

12-10-2012 02:19 PM
Rrrrrachel 1. This study doesn't mention vaccines?

2. This is te mercury poisoning = autism thin again. He makes some awfully strong statements in the abstract in curious how he backed up.

3. This is showing a correlation between vaccine uptake and autism rates, I guess? There are a lot of reasons those two things could be correlate other than causation.
12-10-2012 01:09 PM
kathymuggle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

And successfully done, too, unfortunately.  May I suggest that we get back to the OT, and if anyone suspects any posts of shill-dom or troll-dom, please use the handy little flag button to alert the mods.

 

 

I reread your Op and then decided to look to see what work Zimmermann had been involved in.  He is a bit of a gold mine in terms of studies linking vaccines and autism.  

 

 

I  thought this study looked interesting (abstract only - sorry)

http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/14/6/388.short

 

http://www.medical-hypotheses.com/article/S0306-9877(00)91281-7/abstract

 

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15287394.2011.573736

12-10-2012 12:49 PM
Taximom5
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post

Chickabiddy, it's probably just someone trying to bait/derail.

And successfully done, too, unfortunately.  May I suggest that we get back to the OT, and if anyone suspects any posts of shill-dom or troll-dom, please use the handy little flag button to alert the mods.

 

Back on topic:

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

nhonestly I find that hard to believe. It's very easy to find online cme that has no competing interests. I have to do 50 hours a year and I've never had trouble.

 

 

Could you post some examples?  I've read from many sources that even cme that sounds like it has no competing interests is almost always funded by an innocent-sounding front group for a pharmaceutical company, which does make sense, as most cme is about new and updated medications and diagnostic practices regarding the prescribing of such medications.

12-10-2012 11:50 AM
kathymuggle
nm
12-10-2012 11:32 AM
chickabiddy

delete

12-10-2012 11:19 AM
tribalmax

Edited because mods are now aware of the issue.

12-10-2012 05:59 AM
beckybird

Chickabiddy, it's probably just someone trying to bait/derail.

12-10-2012 05:32 AM
chickabiddy

How can "accapuncture" cure diabetes?  Please be specific and include credible published (not self-published) sources.

12-10-2012 01:37 AM
dontVaccinateMe

dont vaccinate!!!!!

 

alternative medicine can cure all disease (herbs, yoga, spiritual, urine therapy, bowen, accapuncture)

12-07-2012 01:46 PM
VinceinAZ Thank you, Mosaic! I absolutely agree with you! Dr. Tenpenny did not post here on Mothering.com, but was slammed harshly for her opinion. What I love most about this site is the civility with which discussions are held. Clearly some subjects lead to impassioned reactions, but typing in a comment or reply is entirely voluntary. All readers, PLEASE keep your tone civil. There are plenty of other places where you can vent your spleen in vivid technicolor detail, but there are VERY few places where you can express an unpopular opinion without being heckled and insulted viciously by those who do not share your opinion. I promise to keep my own harsh reactions off of Mothering.com.
12-07-2012 09:18 AM
WildKingdom n
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

lol.gif Fair enough! One of these days, I'll have to pick your brain on the grossly off-topic subject of pharma influence on DSM-V...
ETA: Bringing this back on topic, I've heard anecdotally that doctors in my area have a hard time finding CME opportunities that don't have competing interests connected to them. I find this troubling.
honestly I find that hard to believe. It's very easy to find online cme that has no competing interests. I have to do 50 hours a year and I've never had trouble.
12-07-2012 08:57 AM
Turquesa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post

I have never said I was a Pharmacist. I am a mental health professional. No Turquesa I did not pay for my steak. Do I have feelings about attending these dinners? - yes, which is why I rarely go. This was the first one I've been to in years in fact. Many of my collegues go regularly just for the free food.  I was attending the dinner to get some CEU's for my license (you don't just eat, there is a presentation as well). I suppose I could have gone and not eaten anything in protest, but I was hungry yummy.gif

lol.gif Fair enough! One of these days, I'll have to pick your brain on the grossly off-topic subject of pharma influence on DSM-V...

ETA: Bringing this back on topic, I've heard anecdotally that doctors in my area have a hard time finding CME opportunities that don't have competing interests connected to them. I find this troubling.
12-07-2012 08:36 AM
Mosaic This is off-topic and not about Marnica's profession or eating habits, so thank you for laying off of her so that I don't really have to moderate posts about steak! lol.gif
12-07-2012 08:08 AM
Rrrrrachel Sorry marnica, my mistake.
12-07-2012 07:33 AM
Marnica

I have never said I was a Pharmacist. I am a mental health professional. No Turquesa I did not pay for my steak. Do I have feelings about attending these dinners? - yes, which is why I rarely go. This was the first one I've been to in years in fact. Many of my collegues go regularly just for the free food.  I was attending the dinner to get some CEU's for my license (you don't just eat, there is a presentation as well). I suppose I could have gone and not eaten anything in protest, but I was hungry yummy.gif

12-06-2012 03:40 PM
WildKingdom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post

 

Hmmmm I just attended a pharmacuetical dinner at a lavish steak house last night. I can assure you my meal was WAYYYYYYY more than $15.00. Had I gone to that restaurant and ordered what I ordered off the menu, including the alcohol I consumed, my meal would have been about $100.00 (including booze)

 

I know quite a few ND's. None of them do business like this and none of them are anywhere close to getting rich. Just as there are quality MD's out there  and unethical ones, such is the case for folks in the "alternative" medicine arena. 

 

I'll take your word for it.  As I said before, I haven't participated in any such shenanigans since 2007.

12-06-2012 03:20 PM
Turquesa Marnica, please don't take this the wrong way, but I hope you paid for your own steak. hide.gif
12-06-2012 02:07 PM
Rrrrrachel Pretty sure she's sai before she's a pharmacist.
12-06-2012 02:04 PM
Chicharronita

12-06-2012 01:47 PM
Turquesa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post

Hmmmm I just attended a pharmacuetical dinner at a lavish steak house last night. I can assure you my meal was WAYYYYYYY more than $15.00. Had I gone to that restaurant and ordered what I ordered off the menu, including the alcohol I consumed, my meal would have been about $100.00 (including booze)

I know quite a few ND's. None of them do business like this and none of them are anywhere close to getting rich. Just as there are quality MD's out there  and unethical ones, such is the case for folks in the "alternative" medicine arena. 

Um, I'm morbidly curious. What were you doing there at that dinner? bigeyes.gif
12-06-2012 01:29 PM
Chicharronita

If I shut up, is there a chance I could be invited to a pharma-paid steak dinner? I could sure use one sometimes. I'm a pretty cheap date; I don't drink alcohol.  ;-)

12-06-2012 01:21 PM
Marnica
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

There is not a ban on meals. There is a price limit- I think it's 15.00
I truly think its ironic that you're ok with a "holistic" doctor prescribing something that he then sells you. To me, this is completely unethical.
I have a patient who saw a local naturopath. She saw her once, and came out with $1200 worth of supplement to treat a by cm of conditions that she didn't have, including Lyme disease.
The only condition she does have is a severe anxiety disorder, which the naturopath complete took advantage of. So, please don't tell me they're not getting rich off selling things in their office. $1200 for one visit and supplements. You know how much a general surgeon makes for doing a cholecystectomy? Under $500. And that's for performing surgery on someone and providing the next 90 days of care.
A GYN makes about $1000, for delivering a baby AND proving 9 months of care before and 6 weeks after.

 

Hmmmm I just attended a pharmacuetical dinner at a lavish steak house last night. I can assure you my meal was WAYYYYYYY more than $15.00. Had I gone to that restaurant and ordered what I ordered off the menu, including the alcohol I consumed, my meal would have been about $100.00 (including booze)

 

I know quite a few ND's. None of them do business like this and none of them are anywhere close to getting rich. Just as there are quality MD's out there  and unethical ones, such is the case for folks in the "alternative" medicine arena. 

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