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  Topic Review (Newest First)
01-12-2013 01:03 PM
prosciencemum Yeah I was thinking more results from clinical trials. Is the reactions are so rare as to not be caught in them, well then. Already have my answer.
01-12-2013 12:48 PM
Rrrrrachel That's not true taxi. There are lots of ways to estimate the rate of adverse events other than reporting through vaers.
01-12-2013 12:31 PM
Taximom5
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

 

None of the research I've seen has any good evidence of a higher infection rate in vaccinated children. And in every case I've found the rate of serious adverse reactions to vaccinations is lower than the rate at which unvaccinated children catch the VPD.... and of course that latter would increase even more if many more people declined vaccination. 

But you have no idea what the real rate of serious adverse reactions to vaccinations is, because they are so often not recognized and therefore not reported.

01-12-2013 11:33 AM
prosciencemum
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I'd be interested in some documentation of the assertion that infection rates are higher in vaccinated children. Also that the adverse event rate is five times higher than infection rates (I assume you mean in the post vaccine era for both of these claims? For all vaccines/diseases?)

 

None of the research I've seen has any good evidence of a higher infection rate in vaccinated children. And in every case I've found the rate of serious adverse reactions to vaccinations is lower than the rate at which unvaccinated children catch the VPD.... and of course that latter would increase even more if many more people declined vaccination. 

01-12-2013 09:07 AM
Rrrrrachel I'd be interested in some documentation of the assertion that infection rates are higher in vaccinated children. Also that the adverse event rate is five times higher than infection rates (I assume you mean in the post vaccine era for both of these claims? For all vaccines/diseases?)
01-11-2013 06:33 PM
Sabrina Bowen

We are completely vaccine free. I was injured by vaccines as a child. So were my sister and young aunt. I started to study vaccinations and the diseases themselves when I was just 15 - after nearly dying due to a Tetanus Booster - that I didn't need! Since then I have spend somewhere around 8000 hours researching and finding the truth. What I found has only convinced me that vaccination is about money, not health. For every story of a child getting sick with measles, smallpox, pertussis or whatever else there are 5 stories of horrid debilitating adverse reactions to the vaccines that are said to ward them off - not to mention a higher infection rate in vaccinated children. So no, we don't vaccinate, and never will. When I finish my degree I plan to work with our local and state law makers to educate them on vaccination in hopes of changing legal matters around the subject.

01-09-2013 05:52 PM
midstreammama Because most mainstream parents just follow their doctors advice. Vaccines aren't seen as something to be questioned, and when they are everyone just brushes it off as "what you do" . Like, parent: doctor, is this shot safe? Doctor: yes it's safe. Heres a sheet about the mild side effects. parent: oh ok I'll give soe Tylenol now. End.thats pretty much how everyone I knows conversation went at their respective peds, mine too until I started asking questions, then iget more info. I hope that makes sense..nak
Edit to say that my post is kinda irrelevant now, was tool ate to the game,,:-)
01-09-2013 02:17 PM
prosciencemum Ok.

If people are intested - In the uk we are handed leaflets at point of vaccination about whats happening with a variety of information including information about why the vaccination is needed and also reactions. Here these do not happen as part of "well child checks" as those dont exists as such (drop in to nurse staffed health clinics is available at any time instead). You attend a vaccination clinic staffed by nurses at the doctors office.
01-09-2013 02:09 PM
Rrrrrachel Psm, the vis sheets used in the us are generally much more specific than that. Check out the one for dtap, for example. It lists lots of specific reactions and they're associated rate.
01-09-2013 02:07 PM
Rrrrrachel I can't prove a negative, taxi.
01-09-2013 02:06 PM
Taximom5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Right. Because science supports one and not the other, taxi. It's not a mystery.

What, because you say so? No, I don't think that!ll fly here.

How about if you supply some proof to back up your statement? Remember, you said, "SCIENCE supports one and not the other."

Now, if you mean, "science-as-a-profiteering-business," we'll, that might make sense. Certainly, the pharmaceutical industry has put a lot of money into "fixing" the outcome of the studies it puts out, in order to maximize profits. I don't think anyone would argue that one.

But if you mean, "science-as-the-study-of-systematically-finding-the-truth," which is what most people assume you mean, then you'll find most people, even scientists, are going to disagree with you. You see, we already know that what the pharmaceutical industry passes off as science--isn't. They cherry-pick in order to support sales of their product. Even such mainstream science giants as the Cochrane Review, and Marcia Angell have complained about this.

So--some proof, please?
01-09-2013 02:05 PM
prosciencemum Don't most of the information sheets lists the common reactions and then just say something like "more serious reactions can occur rarely" - since that is in fact the case....
01-09-2013 10:42 AM
Rrrrrachel Right. Because science supports one and not the other, taxi. It's not a mystery.
01-09-2013 10:32 AM
Taximom5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

I can only speak to hat the law says.

Isn't that unrealistic, even irrelevant, if real life involves a heckuva lot more that what the law says?

 

As has been stated here many times, most doctors only give out a sheet from their office that states, "Reactions may include redness and swelling at the injection site, fever, and irritability."

 

The most mainstream sites imply that more serious reactions than that occur far less often than they really do.  What was it you said on another post?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post


It's fact that hep b is much more common than reported. That's why it's the silent epidemic. 
 
 
 
So you are willing to accept that hep B is much more common than reported, but not that severe vaccine reaction is much more common than 
 
 
reported.  
 
 
How interesting.
01-09-2013 10:10 AM
Lovemy2boys25 My children are 15 months and 3 months and have never needed a medical procedure (I don't call getting a shot a medical procedure)and if they did I would ask questions of course! I have never had a medical procedure until my c section and since my mom and sister both have had one I didn't feel that I needed to ask questions cause I knew what to expect. Nobody that I know has ever to my knowledge had any problems with vaccinations, I don't watch the news and I rarely use the interent so no I didn't realize how dangerous they could be, but I probably would have vaccinated my kids regardless.
01-09-2013 06:48 AM
Rrrrrachel I can only speak to hat the law says. I imagine more would give them out if their patients asked for them. I'm not trying to excuse doctors responsibility to inform and educate. I've fired doctors for doing a poor job of that. Patients have a responsibility, too, though. When I hear people talkin about how they had NO IDEA vaccines could cause harmful side effects I have to wonder why they let their child have a medical procedure, apparently without doing even a minimal amount of research or inquiry, since that information is widely available even on the most mainstream websites.
01-09-2013 04:35 AM
hobojungle
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post

Too bad all docs are not law abiding.

I'm in the US and my ped only gave the VIS packet at our first well visit.

I wonder how many peds actually give the sheets each time shots are given
01-08-2013 10:34 PM
pek64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

And I guess you can't find out if that's available if you make no effort to find out. It's hardly a secret that vaccines can lead to serious side effects.

In the US all doctors are required by law to provide vaccine information sheets, including information about serious side effects, BEFORE administering vaccines.

Too bad all docs are not law abiding.
01-08-2013 07:46 PM
Rrrrrachel These are the sheets used here.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/

I agree it's incumbent on patients nd their caregivers to educate themselves and be educated consumers. That doesn't excuse the responsibility of the hcp, though.

Fortunately we don't have to rely solely on manufacturers for data on vaccine safety and efficacy.
01-08-2013 07:29 PM
japonica
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

And I guess you can't find out if that's available if you make no effort to find out. It's hardly a secret that vaccines can lead to serious side effects.

In the US all doctors are required by law to provide vaccine information sheets, including information about serious side effects, BEFORE administering vaccines.

 

Too bad that type of regulation doesn't extend to prescription meds. But then, as mentioned, if the manufacturer is not forthcoming with data on side effects, then anything the doctor provides in that particular instance is incomplete anyway.

 

I don't think the same regulations vis-a-vis information sheets applies to all countries. It's up to the parents (who are medical consumers) to obtain the information themselves and not rely solely on their HCP for the data they're looking for. Since I'm not in the US, I can't comment on the parental information sheets, but if they're similar to what the health units hand out here, they're more general info and a little light on hard data.

01-08-2013 07:02 PM
Rrrrrachel And I guess you can't find out if that's available if you make no effort to find out. It's hardly a secret that vaccines can lead to serious side effects.

In the US all doctors are required by law to provide vaccine information sheets, including information about serious side effects, BEFORE administering vaccines.
01-08-2013 06:57 PM
japonica
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post


Do you typically accept medical treatment without first understanding the risks and benefits?

 

Only so far as the risks and benefits are available. I was on Vioxx back in 2002. Good ol' Merck wasn't exactly open book with a lot of its data about side effects. 2whistle.gif Doctors cannot share info with you about risks if the manufacturer won't provide it. 

01-08-2013 05:49 PM
Rrrrrachel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovemy2boys25 View Post

no I didn't ask... I never knew vaccinations could be so dangerous, I've never heard anything bad about them so I never knew to ask... But since they can be dangerous and Doctors know that you would think they would warn you about it...

Do you typically accept medical treatment without first understanding the risks and benefits?
01-08-2013 05:38 PM
Lovemy2boys25 no I didn't ask... I never knew vaccinations could be so dangerous, I've never heard anything bad about them so I never knew to ask... But since they can be dangerous and Doctors know that you would think they would warn you about it...
01-08-2013 05:24 PM
Taximom5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel View Post

Good point. If its on the list of recognized serious adverse events for a particular vaccine all you have to show is that it occurred in a reasonable timeframe after the vaccine. If its not on the list, you have to show that it's "50% plus a hair" likely it was caused, or just barely more likely than not, which is far short of a scientific standard.

According to the people who have actually won their cases in vaccine court, this is not true.  They all say that the experience was extremely adversarial, and that they had to have an absolutely airtight case.  Even the lawyers agree that the Special Masters go overboard looking for ANY possible cause other than vaccines as an excuse to turn down the plaintiff.


Here is an interview with one of those lawyers: http://www.activistpost.com/2012/08/exposing-fdas-vaccine-injury-cover-up.html

01-08-2013 04:03 PM
Rrrrrachel Good point. If its on the list of recognized serious adverse events for a particular vaccine all you have to show is that it occurred in a reasonable timeframe after the vaccine. If its not on the list, you have to show that it's "50% plus a hair" likely it was caused, or just barely more likely than not, which is far short of a scientific standard.
01-08-2013 03:45 PM
chickabiddy

The vaccine court does not actually require proof that injuries were caused by vaccines.

01-08-2013 01:01 PM
Rrrrrachel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Except for the evidence posted here many times, that you've apparently chosen to ignore.  Like the fact that only a fraction of severe vaccine reactions are recognized as such, let alone reported.  Like the fact that, in spite of this, over 2500 cases of vaccine-induced serious injuries and death have been admitted and compensated by the US government (with taxpayer money)--and that's only through 2010.  http://vactruth.com/2011/02/25/national-vaccine-injury-compensation-program-and-vaccine-damage-awards/

Here is a partial list of cases compensated in 2012: http://drtenpenny.com/vaccine-court-judgements-for-flu-shot-injuries/

More recent studies have shown serious long-term autimmune problems caused by aluminum adjuvants, and both recent and not-so recent studies link vaccines with developmental regression, neurological disorders, bowel disorders, asthma, diabetes, food intolerances, etc.

I guess you mean the speculation, cause I haven't seen much evidence. I don't ignore it, but I don't find it compelling, either.
01-08-2013 01:00 PM
Rrrrrachel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovemy2boys25 View Post

I was never told about any risks or side effects that could be caused by vaccinations from my doctor or anybody really... Its scary to hear how vaccinations affect some children and adults too!!

Just curious, did you ask?
01-08-2013 09:16 AM
Lovemy2boys25 I was never told about any risks or side effects that could be caused by vaccinations from my doctor or anybody really... Its scary to hear how vaccinations affect some children and adults too!!
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