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  Topic Review (Newest First)
02-19-2013 08:00 PM
erigeron

Sleeping in a car probably isn't good for adults either. Now if only somebody would pay our plane fare so we can skip the 9-hour drive to visit my husband's family... seriously, who are these people who never sleep in the car? Or never let their kids sleep in the car?

02-19-2013 04:10 PM
marsupial-mom

Levitt was only looking at available data and comparing carseats (general) to seat belts for children over age 2.

 

He wrote in the NY Times: "For children younger than roughly 24 months, seat belts plainly won't do. For them, a car seat represents the best practical way to ride securely"

 

He was only looking at actual carseat usage. Since other studies show that carseats are routinely used improperly then the data is only examining IMproper carseat usage with seatbelts, not proper carseat usage with seatbelts. Levitt's MIT paper says, "Because many child safety seats are, in actual use, improperly installed, our estimates are likely to understate the benefits associated with proper use of child safety seats."

 

Since we know that most parents turn their kids to forward facing at age 1 or earlier then Levitt's data only examines forward-facing carseat usage with seat belts. In fact, the term "rear-facing" wasn't in his paper at all.

 

He explains that the data was limited. Many states don't keep good data. So that's another problem with anyone making conclusions based on his analysis.

 

Lastly, even his analysis found that "child safety seats are now statistically significantly better than all the other devices" for preventing nonincapacitating injuries.

 

My sources: http://www.mit.edu/~jjdoyle/doyle_levitt_ei_aug2008.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/10/magazine/10FREAK.html

02-19-2013 10:43 AM
~adorkable~

it is a interesting talk, and  really like TED talks

 

i think it super misses a few points.

 

  1. in the raw data he puts out first it does not seem to take in account the much larger number of of kids that start off in a carseat vs seatbelt in the final numbers. since all the kids that are not injured are not ever reported. (i may be misunderstanding this, it seems like a obvious and egregious oversight, so i may be wrong)
  2. it is testing forward facing and we already know that rear facing is way better, this seems, in part, to prove our point that forward facing carseats are a dramatic step down in safety, to see what I'm talking about look at the videos in the 2nd post and see the difference between FF and RF just in carseats, the FF does in fact look similar to the adult belt crash, horrible. but the RF looks very very different and that is the point many of us have been making
  3. this crash data with adult lap and shoulder belts also assumes that the kid is sitting in exactly the correct position when the crash starts and one of the biggest reasons to use older carseat or booster is to position wiggly kids in correct relation to their safety belts so that they can actually work like they are intended.  in reality smaller kids rarely sit properly in adult seats, and even worse when they fall asleep. they lean forward, stick their arms thru the belt wrong, lean over, slide around and it is very hard to police when driving. hence booster seats are mostly just positioners, they use the adult seat, but make it harder for the small kid to be in a bad position.

 

 

what i take away from this video, and thanks for sharing it, is 

  1. that FF is very little benefit over just a adult lap and shoulder belt and that both are seriously dangerous for small kids. So if i want to truly improve my kids safety rather than just "feel like I'm doing something" i need to Rear Face as long as i can.
  2. when i can no longer rear face, i will still use something that functions as a very good body positioned, so that i can be sure that if and when a crash happens, my kid is in proper contact with their seat belt or harness to get the most out of it.

 

i also get a bit sick when folks start to say if 10% better is worth the cost, that is a budget decision, and therefor not for them to be making. 

 

02-19-2013 09:33 AM
Mommel

And then there's this...

 

 

 

duck.gif

02-10-2013 10:13 PM
~adorkable~

im really glad we could help you sort thru this, and i'm sure a lot of other folks learned a lot as well.

02-09-2013 05:59 AM
Flopsy

I honestly didn't know I was opening such a can of worms with this question! redface.gif

 

I first posed this question because DH and I disagreed about when our son should be turned around. We had turned him for a long trip a few months ago and neither of us were sure about turning him back to rear-facing. As soon as I read the first few posts on this thread, I turned him back - he's perfectly happy that way. We had only turned him so that I would be able to interact with him on our long car trip. DH is still a little unsure because it was so convenient to have DS FF, but he's willing to leave this particular decision up to me. (And if he puts up a fight, I'm making him watch that video you posted, Adorkable.)

 

Anyway, I wanted to say again how much I appreciated everyone's replies on this thread. It was helpful to hear some of the arguments against RF, too, and how those who are committed to rear-facing for as long as possible answered those arguments.

02-09-2013 12:26 AM
crystal_buffaloe Mine is 2 years and 9 months and still very happily rear-facing. She's small for her age, so we'll definitely keep her RF til 3, and very probably longer if she fits -- she's just under 30 pounds now, and I think our seat is good RF until 45 pounds (FTR, it was under $100 as was our infant seat). She's also always been more than happy to ride in the car RF -- she sleeps almost any time we drive anywhere. I have a towel tucked up to protect the seat back from her muddy shoes. For us, it all boils down to safety -- it's safer to be RF and she doesn't mind it, I don't see the point in taking on additional risk for no benefit, ykwim?

I have taken more crap for the 'extended' rear-facing than I have for any other 'crunchy' parenting decision!
02-06-2013 05:52 PM
~adorkable~

she is right it is exactly what was asked an the back and forth is totally fine as long as it works to stay on topic and not attacking folks personally

02-06-2013 11:02 AM
sassyfirechick
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadelynMc View Post

Trying to wrap my head around the logic of coming into a thread about rearfacing carseats and then whining that everyone is talking too much or "bragging" about their rearfacing car seats. Just let a grouchy person be grouchy, no need to argue with them. They obviously came here looking for a fight. Let it die.

If you actually read back to my original post it was a direct answer to the OP and when and why of switching to FF.. the thread was not specifially about RF it was about when did people PERSONALLY switch to FF.

02-06-2013 04:32 AM
MadelynMc Trying to wrap my head around the logic of coming into a thread about rearfacing carseats and then whining that everyone is talking too much or "bragging" about their rearfacing car seats. Just let a grouchy person be grouchy, no need to argue with them. They obviously came here looking for a fight. Let it die.
02-06-2013 03:59 AM
Nightwish
Quote:
Originally Posted by marsupial-mom View Post

 

You're right it's probably safer to walk everywhere. But this is a discussion about carseats.

 

Most states don't require children to wear helmets when riding a bike. But helmets save lives. So does that mean it's unreasonable for parents to tell each other - in a thread about bike helmets - that wearing a bike helmet is safer than not wearing one? Of course it's reasonable to say that.

 

In most states it's legal to smoke in your car with your kids. Is that safe? No, it increases the chances those kids will get lung cancer or have other related problems. Would we be rude if we told other parents - in a thread about smoking around children - that second-hand smoke is dangerous?

... she said WITHIN REASON

02-06-2013 03:58 AM
Nightwish
Quote:
Originally Posted by 100%mom View Post

You'd all be safer just to walk everywhere. Stop arguing and let ppl do what is best for their family within reason and with obeying the laws of their state. Like I want to track snow all over my seats to have my kids rearface for a 5 minute drive to school. It's not even logical for my 5 year old to take his snowboots off so he can buckle in and then have to get them back on 5 minutes later.


I agree with this. I'd rather walk or take the bus to minimize the time spent driving. I never drive on the freeway except when we go to another city for family vacations.

I'd rather do that than keep my kids RF until they are school aged.

02-05-2013 08:43 PM
marsupial-mom
Quote:
Originally Posted by 100%mom View Post

You'd all be safer just to walk everywhere. Stop arguing and let ppl do what is best for their family within reason and with obeying the laws of their state.

 

You're right it's probably safer to walk everywhere. But this is a discussion about carseats.

 

Most states don't require children to wear helmets when riding a bike. But helmets save lives. So does that mean it's unreasonable for parents to tell each other - in a thread about bike helmets - that wearing a bike helmet is safer than not wearing one? Of course it's reasonable to say that.

 

In most states it's legal to smoke in your car with your kids. Is that safe? No, it increases the chances those kids will get lung cancer or have other related problems. Would we be rude if we told other parents - in a thread about smoking around children - that second-hand smoke is dangerous?

 

It's totally legal to feed your kid McDonald's everyday but it that safe? No. It increases their risk of obesity, diabetes, cancer, and heart disease.

 

And it's legal in some states to allow children under age 1 to ride forward-facing. Is it safe? Not at all.

02-05-2013 10:46 AM
crunchy_mommy I have never had to take DS's shoes off to put him RF. He is 4yo and still RF. We spent under $100 on his carseat. If we have to drive (which we do, since there isn't anything in walking distance and no public transportation) then I want him to be as safe as possible. I don't understand the criticism around this, or why you'd jump on someone for recommending brands that worked for them. Some people need to switch to another brand to continue to do what they feel is safest, since each brand has different height/weight limits and sizing and various features.

Some people prioritize comfort or convenience over safety. There is nothing wrong with that choice either. I can understand why some might opt to do something that makes day to day life easier, instead of working around safety issues that really are only issues if you get into a crash. Life is hard enough, no need to make it harder, and life is certainly full of risks... we can't possibly eliminate them all and there are downsides to trying to do so! But I think it's important for everyone to understand the safety issues fully, so they can make educated & informed choices. There isn't a lot of publicity around car seat safety so I think it's an important discussion to have. If you've already researched & informed yourself of all the safety facts, and made your choice -- whether that choice ends up being RF or FF -- then you're done. But some people are still in the process of trying to learn what will work best for them, so the safety/brands/recommendations discussion is beneficial for those people.
02-05-2013 10:09 AM
~adorkable~

while im not necessarily talking about a 5 year only, im certainly talking older than 2, mine are already 25 months and will be rear facing probably till 4. it is about then that their bones start to calcify and become stronger to deal with the forces in a crash more like adults to.

 

and yes you are tons tons safeer to walk everywhere and i wish we could, but since the distances in our days dont allow that i do what i can to mitigate the risk that i knowingly take on.

 

i have a waterprrof cover for the vehicle seat back so that shoes are not an issue and a bag near each seat in case the shoes are really gross. at this age i often just slip shoes off as i am putting them in, but can see a type of shoe or an age where that will no linger be the easiest thing to do, hence the baggy i have tucked within reach, it can be easily slipped over boots.

 

i have no problem with civil debate, it is how folks learn. botom line here is that hte law is not in line with the science or facts on the ground. even in a big picture ther are many laws that go too far and others , like car seat laws that dont go far enough. so the best thing to is to learn the rear risks and consider the law the bare minimum.

02-05-2013 09:54 AM
skycheattraffic Adorkable and I were talking about carseats for kids around 2 years old or younger, not school age children. I have a girl who is 22 months old and 33 lb - about to max out her RF limit in her current seat. She's tall and very solid and since I have another baby on the way who will be safe and happy in DD's current seat I will purchase a seat that makes the most financial and safety sense for my family. It looks like that's a radian for us, which I cannot find for under $330 in Canada. We live in a medium sized city with heavy traffic and weekly drive out of town to see family. Keeping DD RFlonger is right for us. I never told anyone what they should do with their own children but it saddens me to see 12 month olds turned FF because it meets the minimum legal limit even though the child has 15lb or more to grow before the carseat is outgrown RF.

I'm done. Have a nice day.
02-05-2013 09:01 AM
100%mom You'd all be safer just to walk everywhere. Stop arguing and let ppl do what is best for their family within reason and with obeying the laws of their state. Like I want to track snow all over my seats to have my kids rearface for a 5 minute drive to school. It's not even logical for my 5 year old to take his snowboots off so he can buckle in and then have to get them back on 5 minutes later.
02-05-2013 07:48 AM
marsupial-mom
Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyfirechick View Post

 My daughter is perfectly happy and safe FF in her seat in a highly rated car.  No need to go on about types, brands or models - there's more to life than brand names.  That's all I'm saying.

 

Well, she's not as safe as she could be. If she were rear-facing she would be safer. That's not a matter of opinion. That is fact.

Here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sssIsceKd6U

 

You're right it has nothing to do with brand names.

02-04-2013 12:20 PM
~adorkable~ We tend to go on about that particular brand because it is the ONLY seat that goes to 50lbs RF in the US. So this is not like a pair of brand name jeans or something, it really does have a different feature that no one else has. Of course not everyone needs it, some may need the tallest frame and that I think is a different seat (though I think the foonf is nearly the tallest too) and they shop based on that. I could care a rats ass whose the seat as long as they had a good rep for quality and customer service. Heck, there are a lot more universally loved brands, that frankly I'm not impressed with. And as for attitude that go along with parenting choices???? Really in all of MDC you decide that car seat safety is the thing that comes with attitude? really? Maybe you just don't like it cause it came out of my mouth perchance? Since that's irrelevant, I won't even entertain that line of thinking.
02-04-2013 11:05 AM
sassyfirechick
Quote:
Originally Posted by marsupial-mom View Post


Next, it's a matter of values, budgeting, and education. It's not necessarily about wealth at all. A parent who values carseat safety is simply more likely to spend a bit more in that area. Others might spend more on toys or clothes or organic food, etc. We each value things differently. For example, my kid always wears a helmet when he rides his bike. Most kids his age do not. However, I let my son jump on trampolines, which the AAP says are extremely dangerous. So... We each make decisions and compromises about our kids safety.

I do undesrtand that people need to make personal decisions and no one can make those decisions for you - I get that.  I just don't like the attititude that goes along with some comments about the particulart type, as if that seat is the be all end all and no one else can compared to it.  Some people can't afford expensive seats.  Some chose to buy safer cars.  My daughter is perfectly happy and safe FF in her seat in a highly rated car.  No need to go on about types, brands or models - there's more to life than brand names.  That's all I'm saying.

02-04-2013 12:04 AM
~adorkable~
Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyfirechick View Post

Are you freaking kidding me? $500 for a carseat?  I'm sorry, all this talk about "my super deluxe wonderseat" this and "my fantastic turbo 3.0 model x" that is just rediculous.  It's like walking up to someone in a ford focus and snubbing them while you unlock your mercedes.  You want to spend that kind of money on a piece of plastic and fabric - by all means you are more than welcome too.  But to flaunt numbers like that fraction of a percent in the ratings makes you that much better a parent is just disgusting and distasteful. 

 it is nothing like that at all, i paid extra money because it is my kids comfort and safety at stake and i made a choice to value that. i get 5 extra pounds and a seat that that is a joy and easy to use and tighten every day. when you put to toddlers in and out a car as much as i do and drive 5 hour road trip regularly like i do these things became huge. 

 

im sure there is a huge number of people on MDC that think they are better parents for only having organic cotton diapers/ only hardwood caringly grown by elves/ handmade baby super foods,  when others im sure do just fine without, same goes with a thousand other things we all decide are worth it. At least the carseat is capable of saving their life. and yes others would too, but would make me turn FF sooner and work harder to get a good fit each day, so that was my choice. i never said i was a better parent for buying a Foonf, so you can just lay off the drama right there. but do i think I'm making better choices than someone who turns early for no good reason except not prioritizing buying a seat that fits their kids past the bare minimums. hate me or whatever, i frankly i could care less. my stance is neither "disgusting or distasteful"

02-03-2013 08:57 PM
marsupial-mom
Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyfirechick View Post

Are you freaking kidding me? $500 for a carseat? I'm sorry, all this talk about "my super deluxe wonderseat" this and "my fantastic turbo 3.0 model x" that is just rediculous. It's like walking up to someone in a ford focus and snubbing them while you unlock your mercedes. You want to spend that kind of money on a piece of plastic and fabric - by all means you are more than welcome too. But to flaunt numbers like that fraction of a percent in the ratings makes you that much better a parent is just disgusting and distasteful.

I don't think that's fair or accurate.

For starters, the simple fact is that rear-facing is far safer than forward-facing. That's got nothing to do with wealth or ego or any of that. It's just a fact.

I know there are some acceptable reasons to turn some kids around early. (by early I mean before age 4). And FF is often legal. And I do it sometimes (in grandma's car for example). That doesn't mean it's the best parenting choice. It's a compromise.

About carseat costs: the Foonf costs $450-500 but others like the Radian cost about $250 or less. There are many less expensive carseats that are able to keep average height children rear-facing to age 2 or higher.

We had one that cost us $50 that kept our son rear-facing in a budget subcompact car until he was 18 months or so. He's very tall and that's why he outgrew it then but most kids wouldn't outgrow it so quickly.

Next, it's a matter of values, budgeting, and education. It's not necessarily about wealth at all. A parent who values carseat safety is simply more likely to spend a bit more in that area. Others might spend more on toys or clothes or organic food, etc. We each value things differently. For example, my kid always wears a helmet when he rides his bike. Most kids his age do not. However, I let my son jump on trampolines, which the AAP says are extremely dangerous. So... We each make decisions and compromises about our kids safety.
02-03-2013 07:22 PM
sassyfirechick

Are you freaking kidding me? $500 for a carseat?  I'm sorry, all this talk about "my super deluxe wonderseat" this and "my fantastic turbo 3.0 model x" that is just rediculous.  It's like walking up to someone in a ford focus and snubbing them while you unlock your mercedes.  You want to spend that kind of money on a piece of plastic and fabric - by all means you are more than welcome too.  But to flaunt numbers like that fraction of a percent in the ratings makes you that much better a parent is just disgusting and distasteful. 

02-03-2013 11:18 AM
SunnyMuffin I'm bad, we switched just after 12 mo for a long trip because I thought it'd make my son happier for the trip and we never turned it back. It was really squashed for me in the passenger side too. I hope that a van will allow me more room up front
02-03-2013 06:32 AM
nia82 Well I was fine without car seats and seat belts, but only because I was lucky enough to not be in accidents. Following the fall of the Berlin wall I did get a car seat as it was the law then. And more than a dozen people I grew up with were not fine. They did die in accidents. it happens very often. I was hit by a motorcycle in front of my school on the crosswalk. You wouldn't believe the physical forces in your body in accidents.
02-02-2013 05:06 PM
~adorkable~

http://clekinc.com/foonf/

 

highest rear facing limit of any seat sold in the us, also as narrow as they come in outside dimensions, but wider inside at the hip than others the same size 

 

Greengaurd certified fabric, reallly amazing fabric actually, that was one of the big selling points for me

02-02-2013 04:54 PM
skycheattraffic I only know of the foonf that rf to 50 lbs in the US and it's pricey (in Canada it's only rated to 40lbs so it's not viable for me). The radian rf to 45lbs but i couldn't justify a new seat for 5lbs
02-02-2013 04:43 PM
MadelynMc Several of you have mentioned rearfacing seats up to 50 pounds. Are these US seats? Which ones? I am desperately trying to find a bigger seat to rearface my 3 year old who Is almost 40 pounds and within a couple inches of the top of her MyRide 65 (rearfacing).
02-02-2013 04:35 PM
Fulhouse Just my personal perspective from having babies for the past 20 years (4 total): 20 years ago we bought a lie down car bassinet. It locked in like a carseat and had a 5 point harness for the baby but it reclined all the way and the baby was lying down head to toe sideways on the seat. He was in that til he outgrew it and then he was a toddler facing forward like all carseats. Then 5 years later came my next child and it was super hard to find that lie down carseat, it was sold for infants with disabilities, but I bought it again. Then when he finally outgrew it, he was in a britax facing forward. Then 9 years ago my next little boy was in the typical carry car seat, faint backward. He didnt seem to like it, so on his first birthday even though he was tiny, we switched him round and he enjoyed the car from then on. Now my baby was rear facing until last month, at 17 months old, when we switched her around. To me, she was rear facing far longer than any of my kids, none of which were in an accident,thank goodness. She is happy and can watch her videos now. I know the risks but its hard with my history not to say "the other kids were fine," you knw? Me, my mom just had me on her freaking lap, no seatbelts, back in the day! Wonder how our grandchildren will be secured.
01-30-2013 07:29 PM
~adorkable~

tightening the harness, it has this yucky tug tug tug action and i swear the angle you have to tug to tighten when RF is the same angle that automatically looses it a little! and i always felt i had to grab and work at the straps from behind. now what would you do when FF?! (of course when i had them i still thought i would FF at 2-3 i bet, not!)

 

i also felt like it is was not well padded, padding too crushable, i would not like thinking of my kids sitting strapped into them for 5 hour drives and such.

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