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04-15-2013 12:44 AM
clementina

Perhaps you could consult with a homeopath for DD?

I have consulted with Joette Calabrese about other issues, and I know that she works with parents of vaccine damaged kids.  Even if DD is not having any symptoms now, I think giving her a Hep B nosode, (or other prescribed remedy) may help prevent problems later.

 

http://joettecalabrese.com/

04-14-2013 07:57 PM
JulieWojo

How are you and baby doing now?

04-14-2013 04:07 PM
IdentityCrisisMama

Something we all have in common!  I love it too. We've finished the second season and it remains a wonderful show. (I started a thread on it in the HB forum if anyone would like to join us). OP, if you find some time to vege between two older children and an infant, I recommend the series for your baby moon!  

04-14-2013 02:36 PM
blessedwithboys Just found it on Netflix and watched all of series one this week, great show!
04-14-2013 01:09 PM
beckybird

Definitely going to watch it on Netflix, thanks!

04-14-2013 09:14 AM
prosciencemum Completely off topic, but supposedly it's sparked such an increase in applications to become midwives in the UK that twice as many people are now training as can be employed by the nhs.

The show has shown vaccination clinics, and a tb testing van. Maybe that was the second series. We just finished that here. smile.gif
04-14-2013 07:10 AM
Rrrrrachel The second series recently started on PBS. I know the first series is on etflix and he second should be on PBS website
04-14-2013 07:08 AM
Mirzam
Quote:
Originally Posted by prosciencemum View Post

Even if the UK (and I assume also the USA and other developed countries) certain demographics would have those conditions. Even 40 years ago I suspect.

There's a great show called "Call the Midwife" on BBC which shows conditions near the docks in London in the 1950s. The midwives were trying hard, but conditions were not good. I recommend the show, not just for that reason.

 

The series was shown in the US on PBS and may still be available to view online. I highly recommend it, it really depicted the wonder of birth, and the amazing work of those British midwives who took care of the women and babies. The series begins in 1957 and goes to the early 1960s, so it was actually 50 years ago not 40 as PSM says. The series is based on the memoirs of midwife Jennifer Worth. Yes, the conditions in the East End of London post-war were poor for many, London at the time was still recovering from the war and was still littered with bomb sites, but I don't think it was that dire for most; rationing was over and the National Health Service was in place. Interestingly, my grandparents lived in Poplar before the war, the area of London where the program takes place, and my mother and all of my aunts and uncles were born there, not sure if any were born at home, I know my mother was born at The London Hospital* which is located in nearby Whitechapel and would likely have been the hospital that the midwives would have used for a transfer. My grandparents were however, relatively well-off; my grandfather owned a transportation business.

 

What is interesting to me is the lack of fear mongering about infectious disease, I have only watched the first series so far, and not a mention of measles , diphtheria, whooping cough etc. You would think if this were a major issue, and children were dropping like flies with these diseases, especially around the newborns, then Jennifer Worth would have included that in her book. Incidentally, there were a total of 96 deaths from measles in the UK in 1957, it was likely Jennifer Worth did not come across any in the population of women and children she served.

 

* This was the hospital that Grantly Dick-Reed, author of Childbirth Without Fear worked. He was practicing there during the time my mother was born and I often wonder if he delivered her. It would be nice to think so.

04-14-2013 06:22 AM
Rrrrrachel Love that show!
04-14-2013 04:05 AM
prosciencemum Even if the UK (and I assume also the USA and other developed countries) certain demographics would have those conditions. Even 40 years ago I suspect.

There's a great show called "Call the Midwife" on BBC which shows conditions near the docks in London in the 1950s. The midwives were trying hard, but conditions were not good. I recommend the show, not just for that reason.
04-13-2013 08:34 PM
Taximom5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escaping View Post

 

l. My dad is sixty five, a member of Mensa, and I've only seen him with a cold 2-3 times in my life... and at 65, he looks better than most 40 year olds. When he was born, they put him in a drawer because they thought he was stillborn, my grandmother had a very traumatic home birth, got a horrible infection and had to be in the hospital for a long time. Not only was my dad not breast fed, he was weaned from birth (after the realized he was alive lol). There was a war going on, there were no baby bottles or baby formulas, so they had to throw some junk together to keep him alive.. 


You have me very curious.  In what country was your dad born?  It sounds so primitive, what with the home birth, post-partum infection, no bottles or formula available--but I can't think of anywhere where such conditions existed but breastfeeding didn't happen.

 

Not doubting you at all--I just need some education here.  US schools are awful in terms of teaching history, even fairly recent history.

04-08-2013 08:00 AM
prosciencemum

MeepyCat - thanks for that post. That resonates so much with my NICU experience too. I had to fight teeth and nails to let them let me feed my daughter almost every feeding (I missed 2 in the 10 days she was in there). I do accept I could not have kept that pace up much longer, but this was following a fantastic natural delivery, so my recovery was also quick, (although set back by being on my feet too much for those 10 days) and I this was my 1st child, so I had nothing more important I needed to be doing right then. Even so they kept on at me that I was doing too much and should give it up and let her have bottles and a pacifier.... But after I slept 2 nights on the sofa in the parents room they caved and found me a bed.... I just found it strange it was so hard, and this was in a relatively small hospital with a midwife led delivery unit too.... I can't imagine how the big box production line hospitals are (like where I had my second child - but thankfully at term and no NICU). 

 

It really was the loss of control that was so hard to deal with. I had to get my husband to take away my baby care book (Sears and Sears) as the passages on how to set up attachment parenting upset me so much, and I also didn't like reading about how NICU babies could not BF. That wasn't helpful to me. 

 

To the OP - take care of yourself, and your baby will fingers crossed do fine too. A calm confident mother can do a lot for a baby in my opinion - they really pick up on the stress (and it's not good for milk production either as I'm sure you know). My advice would be to stop worrying about detox and HepB and just get on with getting baby home and back to normal. And enjoy it (if you can). She won't be little for so long! 

04-08-2013 05:17 AM
MeepyCat

Bubbagirl, I am so sorry that you and your family are going through this.  It sounds like you hit a nurse who wants to make things easy for you, and who is going about it in ways that let her have pleasant conversations with you face to face, but who can't back what she says.  I've had a lot of experience with lying nurses, both in NICU and elsewhere.  Their intentions are often good.  Their end results are as you have experienced - you wind up feeling even more powerless and angry then when you started.  That nurse should never have told you that they could hold off on formula, unless there was breast milk in the fridge.  They have to feed your baby something.  Absolutely bring a IBCLC on board with your case, get all the help you can, but she should also tell you that they absolutely have to feed your baby.

 

The usual discharge goals for NICU care are (1) the baby's heart keeps beating, and the baby breathes in and out all day long, (2) the baby maintains a normal body temperature without assistance, and (3) the baby takes all feeds by mouth.  Giving all feeds from the breast, while fantastic, requires a mother to be in the NICU 24/7, which is a huge logistical challenge for someone recovering from surgery, and a different huge logistical challenge for someone with other kids at home. 

 

My experience with up to the minute NICU care is that it makes a lot of unrealistic assumptions.  Kangaroo care is great, but constant kangarooing demands a lot of NICU furniture and NICU layout.  My baby was in a recently remodeled, unusually spacious unit, but the 34-bed unit had only about 10 recliner chairs.  And if your baby is under bili lights, or not able to breathe room air, it doesn't matter if you can find a place to sit, you still can't kangaroo the baby.  Avoiding bottles altogether requires the mother to be on the unit 24/7, and very few units have parent beds.  Many ask all parents to leave for 2-3 hours a day so doctors can round.  They don't like food on the unit - mine allowed only water - which is unfantastic for supporting lactation.  Very few of these "best practices" recommendations ever seem to take into account that families may live quite far from the NICU, or that mothers are extremely likely to be recovering from surgery.  Many units have too few social workers trained in dealing with PPD and PTSD.

 

Consequently NICU care is an exercise is compromise.  We try to take all those compromises on ourselves - we skimp on our painkillers so that we can drive, (we limp around the NICU, cursing our incisions, and trying to find a recliner), we plan our days around pumping and visiting the NICU while attempting to squeeze in enough time with our older kids that they don't think we've abandoned them, and we grieve when we have to compromise our ideals.  So much of what having a baby in the NICU requires is completely antithetical to what you would naturally want to do as a parent.  And the neonatalogists on staff make decisions as well, about what compromises are acceptable to them, and how to assure that babies bear the least cost of any shortfall.

 

 

Quote:
You're right. You're going to be able to figure out nursing when you get her home. It might be hard, but she will figure it out. The important thing now is just to have her healthy enough to come home. It sucks about the formula and medications, but you know what? You and her are going to leave all that behind soon enough.

 

This tallies with my experience, and I agree with it wholeheartedly.  At three year's distance, I can look at my daughter and be grateful for what was available to us.  While it was happening, it felt like every life-saving intervention was performed with jackboots on my heart.  You will get your beautiful girl out of this.

04-08-2013 02:48 AM
IdentityCrisisMama
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyBird View Post

You are entitled to feel this way, and if I were in your situation, I know I would feel the same way! But please know that none of this is a failure on your part! You are doing everything you can for this baby and your other children, and you sound like a wonderful, caring mother. I just hope you aren't too hard on yourself hug.gif

clap.gif

 

This is the time, mama, that we can focus on the resiliency of our babies!!  It's HARD as an NFL/AP family (or any family, for that matter) to put aside the things we care deeply about and remember that, in the grand scheme of things, our babies will be OK even when things don't go as planned.  It's a weird thing to hold both of these ideas in your heart but I firmly believe both are true.  

 

I am anticipating the time when you bring your baby home and also wishing both of you peace during your NICU stay. 

 

luxlove.gif

04-07-2013 08:54 PM
Katie8681 Honestly OP? The best, most important thing I think you can do for your little one right now is to get her skin to skin between your breasts, cuddle, and breathe with her. You've both been through so much and you are going to help each other heal. I too would be furious at the NICU for the violation of your wishes, they should have waited to get your records at the very least. I don't know of any way to detox from a hep b shot, but I think as much mamas milk and (most importantly) mamas love is the best medicine she can get.

All the best to you!
04-07-2013 08:03 PM
beckybird
Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbagirl View Post

I just feel like I have failed her so much already, before her due date has been reached. I just want to be prepared to give her the best health possible because it has been so very important to me with all my babes. The gmo's and soy and corn syrup and contantimants and flouride in the formula, and all the various toxins in the vaccination and then the antibiotics, all the medications and being in the hospital 6+ weeks is just so overwhelming to me.

You are entitled to feel this way, and if I were in your situation, I know I would feel the same way! But please know that none of this is a failure on your part! You are doing everything you can for this baby and your other children, and you sound like a wonderful, caring mother. I just hope you aren't too hard on yourself hug.gif

 

Also, I love the name "Bubbagirl"! 

04-07-2013 01:28 PM
dinahx

If a doctor actually yelled at you for doing something she said she would not do, I would definitely, @ once, ask for a patient advocate in addition to the (International Board Certified) Lacation Consultant. They aren't actually allowed to yell @ you, they are supposed to honor their word, etc.

04-07-2013 01:25 PM
dinahx

I have no issue with Gavage Tube feeding, but the transition from Gavage can normally be to breast, and in the majority of our NICUs they typically insist on it being to bottle . . .

04-07-2013 01:16 PM
dinahx

They are not a good hospital if they are not encouraging you to provide Kangaroo care and they have not encouraged Lactation with a mother who is already actually lactating? I would insist on a Lactation Consultant being on board with your baby's care. This does not sound evidence based. It seems like they are providing care that is not up to current evidence based Lactation Support in the NICU standards. You may be able to nurse her when you get home, but they are really pushing the bottles too hard. They could have offered you a SNS . . .

 

MeepyCat, mothers can overcome early supplementation and even continue combination feeding but it is, as you have mentioned, a ton of work.Also it increase the chances that Bottles will always be involved. What is in the bottles isn't even as big a deal as the bottles themselves. NICU babies are being encouraged to nurse more and more in the best hospitals and it really just irritates me when mothers are given care that is not up to the minute, and then treated badly for asking for that type of care.

 

OP: I would seriously just get childcare for your other LOs and just park yourself there, shirt off (under a blanket) and ask that they put your baby on your belly. They HAVE to respect your request for Kangaroo care and that is where nursing comes from. It isn't just a matter of 'can you make milk' when y'all get home, but can your baby actually learn to nurse after the NICU staff does all they can to create bottle preference.

 

I would just say that an IBCLC would be your best friend right now. You do not HAVE to let them do everything their way in order to take home a healthy baby, you are still the single most important person in your baby's care team.

04-07-2013 01:16 PM
MichelleZB You're right. You're going to be able to figure out nursing when you get her home. It might be hard, but she will figure it out. The important thing now is just to have her healthy enough to come home. It sucks about the formula and medications, but you know what? You and her are going to leave all that behind soon enough.

Oh: and whoever said a 60-year-old can't have been formula fed is not correct. A 60-year-old was born in 1953, when formula was pretty common. La Leche League was founded three years later to combat this.
04-07-2013 01:15 PM
MeepyCat

Dinahx, I combination fed my daughter from birth until she was over a year old.  From birth to 7 months, she never got straight formula, but either straight breastmilk or breastmilk fortified with formula.  My daughter was not able to nurse from birth - many preemies need more time to coordinate the suck/swallow/breathe process - but transitioned from gavage tube feeding to bottle/breast at about 36w gestational age.

 

The big problem I had with combination feeding, to be honest, was all the dishes.  Pump the milk.  Wash the parts.  Feed the baby.  Dry the parts.  Start over.  Wake up in the middle of the night, mysteriously in front of the kitchen sink, and realize that you can't wash these parts because the sink is full of the dishes you haven't had time wash for the last three days.  At least I had enough bottles to consign those to the dishwasher.  If you'd handed me an SNS at that moment, I would have seen it as "impossible to wash tubing that will quickly become the bane of my existence." 

 

IdentityCrisisMama - I'm inclined not to give advice for transfers to home unless a mama asks.  I don't know how far she is from the hospital, I don't know what they'll be sending her home with in terms of medical machinery (hopefully none, but not all situations are the same), and most importantly, I have no idea when she's going home.  Maybe tomorrow (hopefully tomorrow!), maybe months from now.  Today's challenges are more then sufficient for today, and if the OP comes back and asks about going home, I'll happily render my (many, varied, very strong) opinions then.  Or anyone who wants could run a search and see what I've said to other people.

04-07-2013 01:02 PM
bubbagirl

Wow. Thank you everyone. MeepyCat you seemed to be aware of everything that was happening 36 hours after I posted this. They are pressuring again to give her formula as she is progressing on her feedings and I have been unable to pump enough milk for her and just can't be there for every feeding, not that she is breastfeeding yet. I have been struggling with that the past two days, and after being pressured one day to say yes go ahead with 4 nurses and a Dr, they said they would wait to the next day after I talked to my husband, they ordered the formula bottle as soon as I left and she had been given 2 bottles before I could return the next day....

 

so... here is the story in a nutshell.

 

I gave birth in this hospital twice before (even though I wanted home births) due to other circumstances, but they were borth term and healthy and my milk came in fine. They did not give anything we asked them not to, no circ, no eye goop  and no k or hepb... etc.. .

 

This time I decided since my labors go so quick, to just do it at home with a midwife. As I entered the 3rd tri, I felt like I should at least have an appointment or two just in case with the midwives at this hopsital again, and the day after I made the appt, I went into labor. I didn't know it was labor as I was so early and I just didn't labor like that previously. When the mucus plug came out I knew we needed to go to the hospital. Since my last birth, a new location of this hospital opened up which is closer, so I was asked to go there to get checked out since the weather was really bad - sleet and ice. When I got there I was complete with bulging bag and she was a footling breech. They got everything ready quick, put me under and got her out. I asked to just push but they said it could be too much stress for her and at that point, I just wanted her to be safe, as I was also bleeding and so stressed she was in danger (the blood wasn't an issue come to find out).

 

They took her to the hospital with the nicu where I had given birth previously that evening after I got to see her for a few minutes and they asked our consent on the hepb and we said no.

 

I didn't have time to have the midwife send any prenatal documents or blood tests and then wasn't asked to after the c-section.

 

I didn't think about it, because to be honest, I was in shock for a few weeks.

 

I had been nursing my other two at night and my now middle child during the day a few times through this pregnancy. Actually I was nursing them both when labor started. It was non existent when I was in the hospital. Once I saw her, I got some collostrum and then she contracted mrsa and it dried up basically. I won't bother you wiht all I have done to get my supply ujp, but  basically I am pumping enough for one 52cc feeding for her. I know I have milk left once it stops pumping. I am not able to pump 8 times a day yet, but I am still nursing my other two to sleep at night as they have helped me get my supply up to where it is and well, I think they need it.

 

So....

 

About the detox.  I didn't explain well as I was typing on the new touch screen phone and it just takes me so long to type anything on that.

 

I would not give fermented food until she is ready to eat - 6 or 8 months adjusted.

Coconut Water Kefir in small doses like less than teaspoon can be beneficial to infants, and children  I am not sure if I will go that route, but will if I see signs of really bad digestion. It is basically probiotics but better because its so fresh.

Probiotics - I will be giving her small amounts of this as she was given a round of antibioitcs because my gbs status wasn't tested, (before any breastmilk or any food), she was a c-section so she didn't go through the birth canal and because she was also given the strongest form of antibiotics just in case the mrsa was in her blood (it wasn't). She also wasn't eating at this time because she was on a medication to close the pda on her heart.

 

I just found out about the hep-b as she was starting to get 2 bottle feedings a day. Now she is up to 4 and once she takes them all and can eat all with the bottle and not the tube, she can come home. I am almost sure I will be able to breast feed her and pump enough once she is home.

 

I just feel like I have failed her so much already, before her due date has been reached. I just want to be prepared to give her the best health possible because it has been so very important to me with all my babes. The gmo's and soy and corn syrup and contantimants and flouride in the formula, and all the various toxins in the vaccination and then the antibiotics, all the medications and being in the hospital 6+ weeks is just so overwhelming to me.

 

I was yelled at by the Dr. today when I talked to her about not waiting to give the formula when she said she would. I don't really want to cause a stink while she is still in the nicu. I will let them know we are upset about various things once she is gone. I am not sure to what extent. I feel the hospital is a good one as far as hospitals go. I have never wanted to give birth there however and for these reasons plus the lack of privacy while birthing etc...

 

So....

 

Thank you all for your encouragement and advice and input and outrage, It really has helped so much!

04-06-2013 11:56 AM
IdentityCrisisMama
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeepyCat View Post

What I was hoping to get across is that I don't think "avoid formula at all costs" is necessarily good advice. Premature infants need calories. They need fat and protein. I have no desire to undermine hard work a nicu mom is doing, but nor do I want the perfect (all breastmilk all the time) to be the enemy of the good enough (formula or combination feeding on which the infant gains weight).

Yes, and I hope my interjection didn't imply too harshly that I disagree with this message. That's why I talked about that "fine line", which I think we all acknowledge is tricky when we're trying to both console a mama going through a NICU stay at the same time encourage her as she struggles with finding the best choices for her LO. 

 

And, yes, your perspective as a NICU mama is most appreciated, I'm sure. 

 

Do you have any suggestions for how to ease the transition of bringing this new addition home? 

04-06-2013 11:54 AM
dinahx Another thing that helped me was getting the exact brand & dosage that was given to my baby . . . You could familiarize yourself with common side effects/adverse events so you can be sure you are not seeing any . . .
04-06-2013 11:53 AM
dinahx That relies on the idea that 'combination feeding' is 'mostly successful'. Actually, in most cases, the Formula quickly moves to a place of dominance, especially if it is admin'ed with a bottle.

OP: a supplemental nursing system could be your BFF here, if exclusive BF is not happening. That way you could work to build supply while inoculating your baby's immune system. <3

A preemie mama's milk becomes denser & more highly caloric . . .
04-06-2013 11:44 AM
MeepyCat What I was hoping to get across is that I don't think "avoid formula at all costs" is necessarily good advice. Premature infants need calories. They need fat and protein. I have no desire to undermine hard work a nicu mom is doing, but nor do I want the perfect (all breastmilk all the time) to be the enemy of the good enough (formula or combination feeding on which the infant gains weight).

I spent 32 days in nicu with my own daughter, after an emergency c-section. I hope to be reasonably useful to the op, but I believe detoxes to be dangerous to infants, and better not attempted.
04-06-2013 11:04 AM
cynthia mosher

Personal attacks are not okay. pek64, your access to this thread has been restricted and an infraction issued. 

04-06-2013 09:30 AM
Escaping
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post

Escaping,

Anyone 60 years old, or older, was most definately NOT formula fed. Even those given milk from another species did not have formula as we know it now. By the evidence of your story, your father was fed what was "thrown together". You do not know the composition. You do not know if someone else ever nursed him. Even if no one ever nursed him, he was not getting a super processed concoction.

It appears that you have self-esteem issues, and believe many are smarter than you. Please do not confuse your feelings with proof.

 

You seem to know a lot about me that even I had no idea about! 

 

I do know the composition of what he was fed, I've heard the story 1,000 times over my lifetime, as I said, there was a war going on, they didn't even have animals to eat, let alone milk, so it wasn't a mixture of biologically appropriate breastmilk substitute, it was mostly semolina cooked in water, and I know for sure no one else nursed him because a) that was part of the story, and b) all of my relatives think a baby taking another person's breastmilk is the most vile thing ever. 

 

As for my "self esteem issues", I think it has more to do with my security in my own intelligence that I can accept that there MIGHT be a few people in the world that are smarter than me wink1.gif Ever read the paper "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments"?... it's amusing...

04-06-2013 09:25 AM
IdentityCrisisMama

Certainly the value of breasfeeding a premature infant is relevant to this discussion, I wonder, however, how much the OP is going to get from some of these more personally pointed comments and anecdotal stories.

 

Can anyone share more information on how to detox from Hep B vaccination given to a premature infant? Or, perhaps some insight for this mama as she brings her new baby home? 

 

OP, please don't feel any obligation to get back to this thread but, if you have the time or inclination to let us know how things are going, I'm sure we would all love to hear how things go when your baby gets home.

 

 grouphug.gif

04-06-2013 09:00 AM
pek64 Escaping,

Anyone 60 years old, or older, was most definately NOT formula fed. Even those given milk from another species did not have formula as we know it now. By the evidence of your story, your father was fed what was "thrown together". You do not know the composition. You do not know if someone else ever nursed him. Even if no one ever nursed him, he was not getting a super processed concoction.

It appears that you have self-esteem issues, and believe many are smarter than you. Please do not confuse your feelings with proof.
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