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  Topic Review (Newest First)
06-27-2014 11:04 AM
Deborah As a grandmother, I've got some distance on this.

I think well-baby visits do have their risks and encouraging doctors to have a separate waiting area for sick kids is a really good idea.

I'm pretty comfortable with taking babies out in public after the first two or three weeks, but would recommend slings as much as possible, partly to limit exposure when people lean over to take a closer look. It is much harder to get close to a baby in a sling.

I work at a library in a small town and people bring babies into the library all the time. However, we are rarely a "crowded" place, despite being public, so it is probably a pretty safe outlet.

Overall, except for the huge push to vax every baby as often as possible, it is a heck of a lot safer to have a baby nowadays than it was 100 or 150 years ago...although we have some risks that they did not.

I think that considering the needs of a baby, a quiet space for the first few weeks is a good idea. My daughter was extremely irritated that her pediatrician wanted her to bring a 9 day old home birthed baby to the office for an exam. It made both mom and baby miserable and didn't tell my daughter anything that she hadn't already been told by her excellent midwife. With her second baby, after the family had switched to a general practice, she called to let the doctor know that the baby had arrived. He cheerfully said that he would be okay with waiting a few weeks to see the new baby.

What I get out of this thread is that new mothers need a lot more help and support than they sometimes get in the US!
06-26-2014 01:04 PM
beckybird Sassyfirechick, I'm so glad you wrote this! I could only lurk for the past few days, and I so wanted to respond but didn't get the chance. You summed up exactly what I would have posted, and did a much better job than I would have done!

It's interesting that we are talking about privilege here, since I always thought it was the privileged who could afford to go to so many WBVs! There are people who don't have insurance and don't qualify for medical assistance either. These people do exist, especially in the USA, and expecting them to pay out of pocket for so many WBVs is probably unrealistic (even if they wanted to go).
06-26-2014 09:10 AM
sassyfirechick
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imakcerka View Post
Also the amount of privilege up in here is amazing. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean others can and they shouldn't be judged for it.
I think that's a bit harsh and I see no judgement in making a statement of what's best or ideal. Obviously not everyone can do it, but it doesn't mean you're being judged. It just means you made a choice of what worked best for your family, that's it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
This thread has gone south. I do think ways to minimise risks to newborns is an important topic, as is the importance of wbv and how that feeds into minimising health risks.

With regards to wbv, some of the ideas explored are :

less visits versus standard schedule
quality over quantity
early morning visits
pediatricians with separate well and sick waiting rooms
wearing your baby, nursing, washing your hands etc.

I vote we get back on topic or let the discussion die for now (perhaps to be tried again in a few weeks - it is an important topic)
I've agreed with everything you've said - it's what's ideal, but in no way does it make anyone wrong for doing differently. If someone is having problems or is uncomfortable in skipping a visit, then they should continue on schedule. But skipping wbv's shouldn't be penalized anymore than skipping a vaccine should be penalized. It's up to each person to determine their comfort level with these things. I absolutely agree with quality over quantity. I know for a fact my ND does fewer well visits for healthy babies BUT she spends a minimum of an hour per visit. Our ped? The longest visit was maybe 10 minutes, not even joking, and most of her questions were about our family/living situation - were we still together? did we still have pets? was I still staying home? She never delved into foods or food reactions (even when I brought them up), never asked about reactions to vaxxes when we were vaxxing (even when I brought those up), never asked behavioral questions, balance, cognitive, language.....nothing. Hell, the last time we saw her DD was 13mos and she did ask "can she say 5 words, like mama or dada?" I replied that she knew over 25 words. She looked over her laptop and glared at me then said "I mean real words, not sounds"....I then proceeded to ask my LO to name various things in the room, in books, etc....got more dirty looks from the ped when I told her she could say 'pumpkin' at 11mos old (she's a nov baby). I had far more expectations than were met by going there and thankfully we left for the ND who has gone above and beyond in her exams to get to the root of issues and really figure my DD out. A well visit in my early experience didn't equal answers, just more questions and frustration.

In an ideal world, WBV's would be in-home, early morning and then the docs would head to the office for the rest of the day. Everyone could breastfeed and baby wear and people would just have common sense in staying away from newborns.

I'm not saying deviating from this is wrong or in someway for the "underprivileged" - I'm saying this would be an ideal world which we obv do not live in. So next best thing is for people to prioritize. Can you breastfeed? Can you limit outsiders in the home? Can you arrange for family to help out with older kids? Can mom (or dad) stay home, work from home, or change hours?

I left a fantastic job full time because returning to work where I was driving all day, sometimes 10-12 hours, to appointments all across out state and sometimes neighboring states (easy to do in CT) would have meant an absolute end to breastfeeding for us. There were zero accommodations in place for me to pump and knowing early on she was sensitive to dairy, I just couldn't bring myself to stop a good thing and put her on formula. It worked out pretty equal money-wise for me to just stay home rather then paying for full time child care. It was a sacrifice, and DH did take on a second job to make up for the difference. Did we struggle? Yep! But struggling to figure out finances was something we were willing to do if it meant having one of us home to raise our LO. *Disclaimer: Not everyone can do this - I get it!!* It just different strokes for different folks, all with the same end goal in mind - happy healthy kids!
06-25-2014 01:36 PM
Taximom5
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
This thread has gone south. I do think ways to minimise risks to newborns is an important topic, as is the importance of wbv and how that feeds into minimising health risks.

With regards to wbv, some of the ideas explored are :

less visits versus standard schedule
quality over quantity
early morning visits
pediatricians with separate well and sick waiting rooms
wearing your baby, nursing, washing your hands etc.

I vote we get back on topic or let the discussion die for now (perhaps to be tried again in a few weeks - it is an important topic)
Aand, after responding to earlier posts, I have only just gotten to this one. Sorry--do you want me to delete my earlier posts?
06-25-2014 01:34 PM
Taximom5
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
It does not matter if you think it is privileged or not.

Am I supposed to say women should not breastfeed because some women can't? Then what is the difference in saying women should keep their babies out of crowded public spaces in the early months?
There are several differences.
1) the majority of mothers today do not have the option of staying inside their 4 walls or on their own street for 4 months.
2) you have not proved that there is any overall benefit to doing so.
06-25-2014 01:31 PM
Taximom5
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post
Taxi you are simply arguing, this is not one bit supportive and frankly changing the subject since this is really focused on vaccines.

One be it a mom or dad or BOTH can and many DO use the leave act and even for adoptive children and at all ages. It is untrue you need to be the primary. The leave is also for when a child is ill and in the hospitable, etc. Both parents can use it together. My dh's employer had no right to ask what my role was as long as he filed his paper work prior, and in the case of an emergency you can do that on the spot within hours. People both dads and moms do use it, being unpaid and still having job works for many!
You are right: the Family and Medical Leave Act does not prevent both parents from using unpaid leave. I was wrong about that one. I'll go back and edit.

However, this only applies to employees who have worked for 12 consecutive months, who have put in 1250 hours, and who work for companies who have 50 or more employees within 75 miles. So not everyone HAS the option of taking 12 unpaid weeks, even assuming that they can afford it.

I don't like being accused of arguing for the sake of arguing, just because I don't agree with you and Kathy. I'm not changing the subject, either; Kathy asked what well-baby visits we would go to without vaccines, and why. I'm explaining why; fear of taking the baby "out into the community" should, in my opinion, not be a deterrent to well-baby visits, nor to anything else that the parents deem necessary for their family.

You can disagree with me, and I certainly appreciate that you pointed out my error regarding FMLA. But accusing me of arguing for arguing's sake is not constructive discussion.
06-25-2014 01:13 PM
Taximom5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imakcerka View Post
Two points here, yes a father can get time off. HOWEVER even with my maternity leave I only got 60% of my pay. If the father is the one working a decrease in pay is a big deal.

Getting out of the house and moving around helps with PPD. Baby moon all you want but if you're having dangerous thoughts and you stick it our for those four months alone so that you don't get the side eye from women like Kathy who apparently has all the support in the world, you're doing your self a disservice.


And WBA's are not just for vaccines, while there will be things missed, there will be plenty more things caught. An enlarged head, low muscle tone, lack of interest in eating, weight loss those are just a few things that not all new moms will automatically notice.

1. Not everyone is privileged enough to have lots of outside help.
2. Not every father can take off the time and lose the pay, even if they save for it, THINGS happen.
3. It's important to have someone look at your infant for developmental delays.
4. Not everyone can stay shut up in their home for 4 months to a year. No support, depression, loneliness

Also the amount of privilege up in here is amazing. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean others can and they shouldn't be judged for it.
Thank you. I hadn't even considered postpartum depression.

I'm still trying to wrap my ahead around what might have happened to my oldest child if I had not been able to bring him to his therapies for 4 months, what a disaster breast-feeding would have turned into if I'd had to leave the baby with someone else so I could go to the store to get things like food and diapers, how I would have gotten the older children to their own medical appointments without bringing the baby, or the emotional state of the entire family if we'd been under house arrest for 4 months.

Kathy, as I said before, I think the world of you, and I usually agree with you. I think you have the best of intentions, but I suspect, as Imakcerka said, that you're kind of coming at this from a position of privilege.

Maybe we're wrong.

So please make it easier for us to understand, okay? How did it work for you, to keep your babies home for 4 months?

Did your older children cancel their activities, or did you have friends or family members who were able to drive them? Or did they not have activities?

What about work? Did you work outside the home at that time, or did you have a job that you might have lost had you not returned after 12 weeks?

How and when did you get to the grocery store without the baby? Was your husband able to do all the shopping for you? Or did you have someone stay with the baby and give him/her a bottle if you were gone too long? Or did they just let the baby scream til you got back?

And finally, what is the difference germ-wise between bringing the baby out into the community, and having dad come home from work in the community, and siblings come home from school in the community, and then having dad and siblings breathe all over the baby? Because honestly? I don't think there's a whole lot of difference.

Now, I DO think that it's asking for trouble to bring a newborn to visit your friends at work or the PTA or whatever and have everyone take turns holding the baby, kissing his chubby cheeks, and handing him pacifiers and teething toys. Yes, that's asking for trouble, and if that's really what you meant, I agree. One of my kids had cardiac issues; I wore all my babies in a sling, so it was pretty easy for me to avoid having people get themselves and their germs in my babies' faces. But that's a very different scenario than what I assume you meant, that moms should not bring their newborns with them on necessary errands.

And Kathy, I want to emphasize that I am not arguing with you for the sake of arguing. I really disagree with you on this point, and I think your perspective really does seem a little bit "let them eat cake."

(And someone should alert the media! Imakcerka and I actually agree about something!)
06-25-2014 09:51 AM
kathymuggle This thread has gone south. I do think ways to minimise risks to newborns is an important topic, as is the importance of wbv and how that feeds into minimising health risks.

With regards to wbv, some of the ideas explored are :

less visits versus standard schedule
quality over quantity
early morning visits
pediatricians with separate well and sick waiting rooms
wearing your baby, nursing, washing your hands etc.

I vote we get back on topic or let the discussion die for now (perhaps to be tried again in a few weeks - it is an important topic)
06-25-2014 08:05 AM
kathymuggle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imakcerka View Post

Also the amount of privilege up in here is amazing. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean others can and they shouldn't be judged for it.
It does not matter if you think it is privileged or not.

Am I supposed to say women should not breastfeed because some women can't? Then what is the difference in saying women should keep their babies out of crowded public spaces in the early months?

Facts are facts. It is a fact that heavy exposure to masses of people is more likely to equal getting sick (unless you completely disregard what science says about how diseases are transmitted) and it is a fact that newborns are more likely to get seriously ill and be treated agressively than older healthy children and adults.

Any facts you disagree with?

(ETA: I am mildly floored that the fairly tame suggestion of keeping newborns out of crowded spaces (which is common sense) is being met with such opposition.)
06-25-2014 07:24 AM
Imakcerka Two points here, yes a father can get time off. HOWEVER even with my maternity leave I only got 60% of my pay. If the father is the one working a decrease in pay is a big deal.

Getting out of the house and moving around helps with PPD. Baby moon all you want but if you're having dangerous thoughts and you stick it our for those four months alone so that you don't get the side eye from women like Kathy who apparently has all the support in the world, you're doing your self a disservice.


And WBA's are not just for vaccines, while there will be things missed, there will be plenty more things caught. An enlarged head, low muscle tone, lack of interest in eating, weight loss those are just a few things that not all new moms will automatically notice.

1. Not everyone is privileged enough to have lots of outside help.
2. Not every father can take off the time and lose the pay, even if they save for it, THINGS happen.
3. It's important to have someone look at your infant for developmental delays.
4. Not everyone can stay shut up in their home for 4 months to a year. No support, depression, loneliness

Also the amount of privilege up in here is amazing. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean others can and they shouldn't be judged for it.
06-24-2014 12:10 PM
kathymuggle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

I don't think 4 months is any more reasonable than 18 years. House arrest is house arrest, no matter how long the sentence.

4 months is completely different than 18 years.

I am well aware that for some people it is easier to get help with everyday tasks and outings than others - that does not mean I am going to avoid putting it out there that I believe there are risks to taking a young infant out in crowded places. I also believe that all parents can minimise risks - the degree to which they can will vary by support system. Most people do get sick from time to time - and what might be minor in you can be serious in an infant. I see no reason NOT to try and prevent illness in the first few months.

As an aside, most women in N.A have about 2 kids - about 2 years apart. I truly doubt a 2 year old is going to suffer greatly from decreased outings - but if you judge they will, then use your support systems. If you do not have any, that sucks and you will have some tough choices to make to balance needs/risks. That is parenting. I simply think the fact that newborns are more prone to serious complications and agressive treatment (breastfed or not) needs to remain in the equation.
06-24-2014 08:34 AM
Taximom5 Kathy, I don't think it's reasonable to have an entire family put their lives on hold for 4 months, and I don't think it's necessary, especially for a breastfed infant.

I think that you're making the assumption that every new mom has someone who can be there to shop, cook, clean, and take the kids to their activities.

Please explain how this would work, and why you think it would be ok for older siblings to miss preschool, dance class, music class, martial arts, PT, OT, speech therapy, etc., as well as play dates with their friends out in the community.

And with older kids, you have sports tournaments, musical and theatrical performances, and graduations.

For those in churches and synagogues, you have spiritual needs to consider.

I'm not saying that there aren't some families who would be just fine cocooning for 4 months (and if you "unschool," it would make sense that you think along such lines), but for most typical families, I maintain that it amounts to house arrest.

No baby needs to go to Walmart, or to dance class, but most moms do need to go, and their babies need to be with them.

I don't think 4 months is any more reasonable than 18 years. House arrest is house arrest, no matter how long the sentence.
06-24-2014 08:05 AM
serenbat Taxi you are simply arguing, this is not one bit supportive and frankly changing the subject since this is really focused on vaccines.

One be it a mom or dad or BOTH can and many DO use the leave act and even for adoptive children and at all ages. It is untrue you need to be the primary. The leave is also for when a child is ill and in the hospitable, etc. Both parents can use it together. My dh's employer had no right to ask what my role was as long as he filed his paper work prior, and in the case of an emergency you can do that on the spot within hours. People both dads and moms do use it, being unpaid and still having job works for many!
06-24-2014 07:52 AM
Taximom5 Serenbat, family leave is unpaid and only applies to those who work for companies of over 50 employees, and who have worked over 1250 hours, over 12 consecutive months.
06-24-2014 07:37 AM
serenbat Men are equal and eligible for the Family Leave Act - http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/benefits-leave/fmla.htm

Employees are eligible for leave if they have worked for their employer at least 12 months, at least 1,250 hours over the past 12 months, and work at a location where the company employs 50 or more employees within 75 miles. Whether an employee has worked the minimum 1,250 hours of service is determined according to FLSA principles for determining compensable hours or work.

In addition states also have their own form and did prior to the Federal Act.

http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs28f.pdf Both mothers and fathers have the same right to take FMLA leave for the birth of a child.
06-24-2014 07:30 AM
kathymuggle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Saying that going out in the community with your infant is a "choice" and that it's not a house arrest to stay home is pretty much the same thing as saying that sending your child to school is a choice that should hinge on vaccine status, and that you should keep an unvaccinated child at home, it's not house arrest to keep them from activities, etc.
Gotta fly - going to a movie (no infant in tow, lol)

The major difference is early infancy lasts 4 months or so, school last up until 18 years. Some kids really want or need to go to school - no baby needs to go to Walmart.

I do not think the comparison holds.

I do think it is reasonable to put life on hold for the first few months. If you (general you) don't that is your call - just know it comes with risks and do not try and insist I vaccinate when you will not do the most basic of protective measures.
06-24-2014 07:19 AM
Taximom5 kathy, I agree with your "in generals," but I do think that the first part of your last post is not reflective of the reality of most lives in the US today.

It IS house arrest if you can't go to WalMart for all the things you didn't realize you'd need with a new baby (I remember being stunned by how quickly we went through laundry detergent, for example) or to the grocery for the ingredients you forgot you'd need for dinner or to the Apple Store to fix your computer or your doctor or to your older children's activities (you didn't address that--are you going to punish the older children for having an infant sibling by barring them from their activities? Or even to Target or Goodwill to buy some new clothes to fit your changing figure (my body changed nursing bra sizes and pants sizes at a ridiculous pace, and found ill-fitting clothes to be very uncomfortable). It's just house arrest with an exercise yard if you can't do all that. And I strongly disagree with anyone who says that you should not bring your nursing baby with you.

I don't think you understand what life is like for those who work outside the home, or for those whose husbands do not get off work in time to go to whatever store. It's NOT AT ALL a question of cabin fever for most moms; it's a question of being able to go outside the home to get whatever needs to be done, DONE.

I think the moms who have cabin fever are experiencing a completely different issue. Totally unscientific observation: every mom I know personally who complained about cabin fever was a formula-feeder. Their babies slept more, fed FAR less often (every 4 hours as opposed to every 30-120 minutes), and cried more when they were awake. And I think from my own experience that bottle-feeding has one hell of an effect on bonding with your baby (had to formula-feed first child for 5 days, due to pre-eclampsia meds interfering with milk production, so I'm speaking from experience here).

Most men are NOT offered paternity leave, and some cannot even choose vacation time. Some don't HAVE vacation time. Some work two jobs to make up for their wives' lost salary during maternity leave. Some work two jobs or extra hours if their wives are SAHMs.

We were lucky that our first child was born during my husband's vacation time, but our others were not; he took the morning they were born off, and that was it. He took over cleaning, and home maintenance for the first few weeks, but he could only cook when he was home! And he couldn't manage all the shopping, and he had to work when our older kids had their activities. Our oldest had various therapies (speech, OT, etc) on top of preschool and "normal" activities.

If you think that's about cabin fever or needing to prove that the baby hasn't "changed" mom, you're just not seeing the real picture.

And I'm not blaming you for that--it's hard to see the real picture for others when it differs so greatly from your own experience. I'm trying (perhaps unsuccessfully) to give you a glimpse of what it's like for others.

Saying that going out in the community with your infant is a "choice" and that it's not a house arrest to stay home is pretty much the same thing as saying that sending your child to school is a choice that should hinge on vaccine status, and that you should keep an unvaccinated child at home, it's not house arrest to keep them from activities, etc.
06-24-2014 06:47 AM
serenbat To add to Kathy's excellent points, well checks in other countries are not tied to the vaccines like they are in the US and often last longer in duration and cover more care/milestones vs heavy focus on vaccine administration.

Some countries vaccines are not even administrated in the same setting and are done in different facilities.

I have posted prior, my Ped requires proof that your insurance actually covers vaccines and his office doesn't even carry all vaccines, thus you must get them at WIC or the Heath dept. so that time is actually spent on checking the child.
06-24-2014 06:36 AM
kathymuggle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post
For some families, it puts enormous stress on everyone to have mom and baby under what amounts to be house arrest for months, especially when there are other children involved.

I think we should refrain from determining what someone else should or shouldn't sacrifice.
It isn't quite house arrest. All newborns can go for a walk outside, for example. Less crowded activities where fewer sick people are likely to be present is also fine - such as visiting family. I know people can be contagious before they show symptoms - but still, some activites are riskier than others.

I do not doubt it put strain on families to reduce outside activity, but I think it is worth it, in terms of disease prevention.

Bringing it back around to vaccine, and your last line. I have no issues with peoples right to bring their infant out - oh, I think it is unwise for newborns to be in crowded places - but it is their baby, their life and their call. I try not to judge strangers who are out with newborns as I do not know the circumstances.

That being said and in general: I will not be told to vaccinate for others people babies when they place their desire to go to with a newborn above my desire not to have my kids vaccinated. It is hard to take a person who talks of "protecting babies" seriously when they will not do one of the most basic protective things - like avoidance of high risk situations.

I do understand that some of this "bringing newborns into crowded places" is very hard to avoid. Mat leaves in some countries suck - and babies do end up in daycare, for example, very early. I am 100% in favour of good mat. leave policies.

That being said, not all of it comes down to necessity and some bringing out of newborns comes down to choice. I think lots of women very much want to be able to go out - they get cabin fever or feel the need to prove that "the baby has not changed them."
06-24-2014 05:01 AM
serenbat In my section of the country many doctors, not just Peds only see NEW patients in the afternoons, after a long waiting period.

Even with Vets, unless you pay for an extra service you don't get early appointments. It's quite standard with Ped to have early apts only for newborns/well visits. Frankly, people like it and it's in demand.

I know of people that have heart mummers missed for decades and only found on a fluke by a non- regular doctor. Mistakes happen even if you make every visit. If one wants to go to each and every visit, to each their own! We hear quite often in the news stories of high school athletes that drop dead from heart issues, they had physical prior to playing the supports and things simply get missed. I know many of women who have had breast issues missed after faithfully going every year of the date - stuff happen NO MATTER THE AGE.

With the exception of the US, most of the Western world, EU and even 3rd world countries don't act like people do here in the US regarding infant checks. The US remains the hold out on mother/parent newborn care/postnatal in-home care. With the changing demography here IMO it's just a matter of time for the US to change to. I have seen massive changes between my two births and not just the leave act. Many here do as they do in other countries, regardless of how many children they have. Many countries do ante/postnatal care in home and each country does it a bit differently but there have been many studies that are starting to come out showing the benefits to postpartum depression and the positive effect these services are having.


Things here in the US clearly are changing (and for the better IMO) and we should be supportive of those who are raising to the challenge! With the multi cultural ethnics diversity I have in my area perhaps that is why I see more and more mom's staying put, family coming from overseas to take care of the mom (for months) and community health workers staring to go into the home. Doctors are meeting the needs of certain communities too, they are use to it in their culture and are bringing it here. My Ped was not raised in the US and was 25+ years ago as admit as he was when our DS was born 6 years ago - infants have NO need for socialization- stay put for their health and the mom's, he stress it and accommodates for it.
http://www.babyzone.com/mom/postpart...tum-care_68591



In some ancient cultures such as China, India, Thailand, and Arabia, it is a time-honored tradition for new mothers to spend the first 40 days after childbirth in seclusion or confinement. This practice helps the mother get the rest she needs so that she feels energized when it is time to resume normal activities.

These cultures also believe the newborn is tender and needs to be protected. Family and friends step forward to relieve the new mother of household chores such as cooking, cleaning, shopping, and babysitting so that she has time to care for her little one. Here are just a couple examples of traditional postpartum care in cultures where new mothers are honored and given special attention.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/witw/ar...practices.html changes to mother care are going to result in changes to newborn care as well, changing demography push these changes



Taximom5, it's quite clear you disagree here with what others that have posted. You have made your views crystal clear, this is a SUPPORT section and you don't come off as supportive at all instead it appears berating of choices and sacrifices others are making. Is this behavior necessary?


ETA- Seriously?

Really is this is not odd one bit! My Ped makes hospitable round prior to the office opening (I know because I had to deal with him in the hospitable and he was early because of discharges) the office open between 8-30 & 9, so it's ONE little hour give or take to see well/physical visits, hardly outrageous and much appreciated too.
06-23-2014 10:55 PM
Taximom5
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post
Actually well visit to an office are so American! Other countries (even Western ones!) don't see the value and DO see the risk - thus there is in home visits! Many think our system in the states is simply CRAZY! Still it's new, and we somehow made it as a people without them for centuries.
5 minutes is quite the norm, like I stated up thread, stuff is missed yet no one seems to address that, it's quite real and does happen. Even with going to each and every well check things are over looked all the time.

Many people are able to keep newborns out of the public for the first few months, it's called sacrifice and priorities.
One caregiver does the shopping the other (MOM) stays put. One does not do mommy & me groups for infants. Newborn care (Family leave) is designed for a parent to not only bond but to actually care for a child and not be taking the child in public. My DH used up vacation time plus what was allowed just for that reason, so he could do the running around and I stayed up. Others do plan and do save up to take additional time off.
Relying on others to do out of home tasks. Many counties the mother simply stays put with the child (Western and 3rd world do this quite the norm, not the exception). Others make meals and the mother and child stay put...more weeks and months. Many times the 1st birthday party or other ceremony months after the child is born is the first time family and friends actually see the child. children are kept at home and under wraps so to speak.



Many Peds also have two waiting room. My Ped almost 30 years ago would not allow newborn in unless an extreme emergency thought out the day, well visits were the 1st all other apts were after 10PM and again he had separate room for waiting and well checks, more and more are doing this but when other counties do in home care vs our system, they are spending more time and actually having far better care because they actually spend the time to talk & listen to the new mother.
All other appointments after 10 pm? Seriously?
06-23-2014 10:53 PM
Taximom5 For some families, it puts enormous stress on everyone to have mom and baby under what amounts to be house arrest for months, especially when there are other children involved. In the US, the necessary support systems simply don't exist. Dads can't manage a full-time job, and taking siblings to their classes unless they have paternity leave, which most companies lack. Many of us live in different states than our own parents and siblings; by European standards, this is like living in a different country from your parents in terms of miles. Most jobs today involve far more than 40 hours per week; husbands with stay-at-home wives tend to work longer hours to make up for the missed salary.

And let's not forget that many moms work outside the home; many must return to work after only 12 weeks or less, and many must rely on daycare. Moms living in big cities have no choice but to face crowds whenever they leave their homes.

I think we should refrain from determining what someone else should or shouldn't sacrifice.
06-23-2014 06:10 AM
serenbat
Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyfirechick View Post
When we were still seeing our original pediatrician, wait time was something like 40 mins with actual visit being under 5 mins. Yep, less than 5mins was the clocked time for our last visit there and it involved more entering in our "delinquent" vax status in her laptop than anything else. Caught a nasty cold (DD and I) 3 days before xmas by sitting in that waiting room! Our ND however encourages people to stay home and call her when sick and the waiting room NEVER has anyone in it!

I think WBV's have merit but I also think that no one knows my child like I do and I've caught things that the ped has missed because I'm very aware of my child.
Actually well visit to an office are so American! Other countries (even Western ones!) don't see the value and DO see the risk - thus there is in home visits! Many think our system in the states is simply CRAZY! Still it's new, and we somehow made it as a people without them for centuries.
5 minutes is quite the norm, like I stated up thread, stuff is missed yet no one seems to address that, it's quite real and does happen. Even with going to each and every well check things are over looked all the time.

Many people are able to keep newborns out of the public for the first few months, it's called sacrifice and priorities.
One caregiver does the shopping the other (MOM) stays put. One does not do mommy & me groups for infants. Newborn care (Family leave) is designed for a parent to not only bond but to actually care for a child and not be taking the child in public. My DH used up vacation time plus what was allowed just for that reason, so he could do the running around and I stayed up. Others do plan and do save up to take additional time off.
Relying on others to do out of home tasks. Many counties the mother simply stays put with the child (Western and 3rd world do this quite the norm, not the exception). Others make meals and the mother and child stay put...more weeks and months. Many times the 1st birthday party or other ceremony months after the child is born is the first time family and friends actually see the child. children are kept at home and under wraps so to speak.



Many Peds also have two waiting room. My Ped almost 30 years ago would not allow newborn in unless an extreme emergency thought out the day, well visits were the 1st all other apts were after 10AM and again he had separate room for waiting and well checks, more and more are doing this but when other counties do in home care vs our system, they are spending more time and actually having far better care because they actually spend the time to talk & listen to the new mother.
06-22-2014 10:20 PM
Taximom5
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

I actually do think newborns (say under 4 months) should be kept out of crowded places if at all possible, and yes, this includes some well baby visits. I do not think the number of WBV our society does is necessary. Where is the evidence they have to be so so often? I think carefully scheduled, but ultimately less visits, might be fine.



(This might just be an "agree to disagree" area)
Aw, Kathy, I think the world of you, and usually I agree with you, but, well, not this time (except that we might have to agree to disagree)!

First of all, how on earth do you think moms--or dad's who are primary caretakers, for that matter-- should keep newborns out of crowded places for 4 months? Who is going to do the grocery shopping and take older siblings to their activities?

I think this is a situation that, for many moms, is very different from your experience.

Second of all, which well baby check ups do you think can be cut? Not any during the first 2 months--that's when breastfeeding is getting established, and when a baby is at risk of dehydration and other complications if breastfeeding is not going well, and that is when heart murmurs first become apparent (7-8 weeks). And 4 months and on is when development really takes off. It doesn't make sense to assume that the mom can properly assess her baby for medical issues, unless she's a trained pediatric specialist.
06-22-2014 07:09 PM
sassyfirechick When we were still seeing our original pediatrician, wait time was something like 40 mins with actual visit being under 5 mins. Yep, less than 5mins was the clocked time for our last visit there and it involved more entering in our "delinquent" vax status in her laptop than anything else. Caught a nasty cold (DD and I) 3 days before xmas by sitting in that waiting room! Our ND however encourages people to stay home and call her when sick and the waiting room NEVER has anyone in it!

I think WBV's have merit but I also think that no one knows my child like I do and I've caught things that the ped has missed because I'm very aware of my child.
06-22-2014 05:07 PM
serenbat getting things in the office certain can and does happen (colds, other illnesses, etc) and to think all things medical are caught by WBV is also inaccurate, doctors are far from perfect and in many offices you see a different one each visit, I know IRL of a child that had a serious condition that later required surgery and went to each Well Check, it was missed and didn't show up until the moved and changed doctors

Many people managed for centuries to live (and thrive to ripe old age too) without going to check-up! To each their own! It's no guarantee either way.
06-22-2014 02:53 PM
kathymuggle [QUOTE=Taximom5;17718594]

My point is not that you should fear the germs to the point of locking yourself at home, but that the germs are EVERYWHERE. We're already exposed to them, one way or another. I agree that it doesn't make sense to take a healthy baby somewhere, anywhere there are likely to be sick people, if you don't have a good reason--but well-baby check ups ARE a good reason. Taking siblings to their activities, going to the grocery store, etc, are also good reasons--you have to live your life, even with an infant!

/QUOTE]

Bolding mine. I actually do think newborns (say under 4 months) should be kept out of crowded places if at all possible, and yes, this includes some well baby visits. I do not think the number of WBV our society does is necessary. Where is the evidence they have to be so so often? I think carefully scheduled, but ultimately less visits, might be fine.

There are risks to skipping WBV, but there are also risks to going to them.

An article on getting sick at the doctors office:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0212144611.htm

(This might just be an "agree to disagree" area)
06-22-2014 02:27 PM
kathymuggle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imakcerka View Post
If you're skipping the dr office to stay away from germs you might as well stay in your home indefinitely.
People are not newborns forever. They are actually newborns for a very small amount of time.

A newborn with a fever can equal a spinal tap for example, a robust 9 month old? Nope.
06-22-2014 08:14 AM
Imakcerka If you're skipping the dr office to stay away from germs you might as well stay in your home indefinitely. It's just not feasible. I don't think it's a good Idea to advocate skipping WBA's ever. They're not just for vaccines, I fill out a long form about different growth aspects of my little guy and discuss important issues with my ped at every appointment.
06-22-2014 06:47 AM
Taximom5
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
Some of it may well come down to regional differences and perception.

My area:

6-8 people in a waiting room, lets say 1/2 are actively sick (I go to a GP). Average 1/2 wait time.

Using just the waiting room alone, and if the office is open for 7 hours - we are talking 7 sick people per hour for 7 hours. 49 sick people go through the space in a day.

Dance class waiting areas in this area are unlikely to have more than 15 people in them and I am being very generous. Most people drop and then pick up. Lets say 10% are sick and round up - 2 sick people in the room. Lets say they run 3 dance classes an evening - 6 sick people were through on a given day. Even if 20% are sick, we are still talking only 12 sick people.

That is a huge difference.

I would not recommend newborns hanging around crowded dance wait rooms, anyways.
Our dance classes go pretty much all day--they have classes for ages 4 and up, starting at 9:30 am--but I'm being nitpicky.

But how many of your 49 sick people are going to go to the pharmacy at the grocery chain, pick up a prescription, and grab a few groceries on the way home? I'd bet it's most of them! And some will have stopped at the lab for a blood draw, first. Some will even pick up their kid from school and head for dance class!

As for newborns at crowded wait room--what do you expect the mom of a newborn to do? Get a babysitter to stay home with the baby while she takes the siblings to their activities (and then leaks milk all over the waiting room because it was time for a feeding, but the baby's not with her)? Pay someone to drive the siblings to their activities so she can stay home and nurse the baby?

Real life, here: you take your baby with you wherever you go, and sit in the (germy) waiting room and nurse the baby.

My point is not that you should fear the germs to the point of locking yourself at home, but that the germs are EVERYWHERE. We're already exposed to them, one way or another. I agree that it doesn't make sense to take a healthy baby somewhere, anywhere there are likely to be sick people, if you don't have a good reason--but well-baby check ups ARE a good reason. Taking siblings to their activities, going to the grocery store, etc, are also good reasons--you have to live your life, even with an infant!

Our ped schedules well baby visits first thing in the morning, before all the sick people arrive. They also use different exam rooms. Some peds have separate waiting rooms, too.

Ask daycare and elementary teachers how often they get sick in their first year of teaching--from kids who come to school on the verge of some virus or other, when they're super-contagious. But then, the teachers hardly ever get sick again after that first year.
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