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  Topic Review (Newest First)
06-27-2014 09:40 AM
Deborah At the point when they stopped recommending the smallpox vaccine there were still a fair number of states without vaccine mandates.

I know NJ was an early state for tough vaccine mandates. I couldn't attend school when we lived there.
06-27-2014 06:30 AM
sassyfirechick Was small pox ever on the schedule as a *required* or was it just a recommended? And I wouldn't consider polio removed, it was just replaced with a different version of the vax. Removal of a reactive vaccine for one that's less reactive or "more safe" (depending on how you see it) isn't quite the same as saying 'hey, we've looked at the numbers and have come to the realization that a vaccine for this particular disease is doing more harm than good, let's remove it completely' with no intention of replacing it with a newer version.
06-26-2014 10:47 PM
prosciencemum Oh and the more reactive (but more effective) version if polio vaccine (OPV) since lowered chances of catching polio changed the risk benefit analysis.

IPV is safer, but not as effective.
06-26-2014 10:46 PM
prosciencemum Small pox vaccine no longer used.....
06-26-2014 01:20 PM
beckybird
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
It would be ironic if vaccine chickenpox shedding increased shingles in a younger population. I doubt if anyone is collecting data on this, however.
If they ever discover this, their answer will be to add a shingles vax to the schedule. That's what they always do, just increase the amount of vaccines given. Out of curiosity, do they ever remove vaccines from the schedule? My guess is no.
06-26-2014 12:06 PM
Deborah Purely anecdotal, but there have been people in their 40s coming down with shingles in September. Which would be very soon after their young kids got chickenpox boosters to attend school. Wild chickenpox does seem to boost resistance to shingles. It would be ironic if vaccine chickenpox shedding increased shingles in a younger population. I doubt if anyone is collecting data on this, however.
06-26-2014 11:39 AM
One_Girl I think it really depends on the disease, age range catered to by the school, and the size of the school. If the disease is mild like the flu or chicken pox then I see no reason for it. If it's something more serious, especially in a school with a preschool attached then I'm all for it as long as teachers are provided to continue education.
06-26-2014 10:37 AM
sassyfirechick You know, I kept questioning it myself (they most certainly aren't a group that asks anything about vaccines) but none of them are of age for shingles vax and they kept on talking about chicken pox. Although they mostly avoided me for these conversations because I guess they were put off by my loud objection to the flu vax that they all desperately thought I should get......
06-26-2014 10:14 AM
serenbat
Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyfirechick View Post
Well the effects of the CP vax will interesting to track because the majority of my co-workers seem to be heading out to get it today.

All of these people AND their children would have had CP in their childhood so why they are rushing out for this I have no idea......
Do you mean CP or Shingles vac?
06-26-2014 09:31 AM
sassyfirechick Well the effects of the CP vax will interesting to track because the majority of my co-workers seem to be heading out to get it today. I had a full blown case in the early 90's as a kid so I'm not sure how I feel about shedding from an attenuated virus since I really have my doubts about it's ability to booster me the way exposure to wild viral shedding would. All of these people AND their children would have had CP in their childhood so why they are rushing out for this I have no idea......
06-24-2014 09:23 PM
applejuice I think no one knows the answers to my questions, yet doctors, drug companies and the govt just gallop ahead, requiring everyone to get this vaccine without knowing all of the consequences on the population.
06-24-2014 08:56 PM
Steph Anie
Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
RE: chicken pox.

If an adult has shingles, can their case of shingles cause chicken pox in a child?

Do you need to have had chicken pox in order to get shingles?
I haven't researched it all that much, but had shingles at 22 after receiving the vaccine (even though I had chicken pox twice (two confirmed mild cases) and shingles is listed on the package insert as a possible reaction).
The doctor that diagnosed it said that my sons could get chicken pox from me having shingles, and that shingles only happens after you've had chicken pox. However, like I said, I haven't looked into it on my own all that much so take it with a grain of salt.
06-24-2014 06:57 PM
applejuice RE: chicken pox.

If an adult has shingles, can their case of shingles cause chicken pox in a child?

Do you need to have had chicken pox in order to get shingles?

Can an adult get shingles without having had chicken pox as a disease?

Can an adult have shingles if they had the vaccine as a child and not the disease?

I suspect in the next few years, there will be a health problem with chicken pox in college dorms as the immunity wears off in early adulthood.

Shingles may be a health problem in college dorms also since few young adults are around young children.
06-24-2014 06:10 PM
kathymuggle
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post

Anyway, I disagree that we don't have an extremely good idea about the risks of the vaccine.
We have studies - most of which are industry funded. We know industry funded studies show more industry-positive results. We have VAERs, which I think we both agree is not a good tool for determining reactions.

What are you basing your statement (above) on?

What are your thoughts on keeping unvaxxed kids out during a pertussis or flu outbreak?
06-24-2014 05:24 PM
Deborah This still doesn't address the problem, a big problem, of long-term immunity for vaccinated folks.

Chickenpox vaccination is most unlikely to be universally used around the globe. This means that the illness will continue to circulate.

Unless every single adult in the US receives chickenpox boosters on a regular basis, every adult who did not undergo CP during childhood will be at risk of adult CP.

This vaccine doesn't have a good track record for long-term immunity in the absence of circulating chickenpox.

Most of the adults who are currently not catching CP HAD IT AS CHILDREN.
06-24-2014 02:39 PM
serenbat
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
Don't have much time right now to respond, but wanted to address this part. I haven't looked at your link yet, but while the cdc may not have required varicella related deaths to be reported to them until 1999, that doesn't mean they weren't reported. The government has required this kind of reporting for deaths since the early 1900s. Looking at the cause of death records is easy to do, and indeed is what was done in the Pediatrics study I mentioned upthread. It looked at chickenpox deaths for four years before the vaccine was implemented, between 1990-1994.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...peds.2010-3385

"During the 12 years of the mostly 1-dose US varicella vaccination program, the annual average mortality rate for varicella listed as the underlying cause declined 88%, from 0.41 per million population in 1990–1994 to 0.05 per million population in 2005–2007. The decline occurred in all age groups, and there was an extremely high reduction among children and adolescents younger than 20 years (97%) and among subjects younger than 50 years overall (96%)."

Further, from my CDC link, incidence for varicella has continued to go down, even just since 2002 (after the second dose was added to the schedule).

"Notifiable Disease Surveillance System (NNDSS), declined by 45% from 2000 to 2005 with an additional 77% decline from 2006 to 2010 after the second dose of varicella vaccine was recommended. Overall, varicella declined 82% from 2000 to 2010. "

http://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/hcp/mo...varicella.html

"

I was under the impression everyone died of diphtheria in the past, now it must have been chickenpox!
06-24-2014 02:21 PM
teacozy
Quote:
Originally Posted by happilymomma2 View Post



As far as your statistics about how many deaths this vaccine is preventing... The cdc didn't require reporting of varicella related deaths until 1999 so I can't imagine that the information is quite accurate since the data from before that time may not be complete. The CDC didn't require reporting of the chickenpox illness until 2002. That is 7 years after the vaccination campaign had been implemented! How accurate can before and after data really be if it simply was not being monitored?

Eta: http://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/hcp/co...veillance.html
Don't have much time right now to respond, but wanted to address this part. I haven't looked at your link yet, but while the cdc may not have required varicella related deaths to be reported to them until 1999, that doesn't mean they weren't reported. The government has required this kind of reporting for deaths since the early 1900s. Looking at the cause of death records is easy to do, and indeed is what was done in the Pediatrics study I mentioned upthread. It looked at chickenpox deaths for four years before the vaccine was implemented, between 1990-1994.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...peds.2010-3385

"During the 12 years of the mostly 1-dose US varicella vaccination program, the annual average mortality rate for varicella listed as the underlying cause declined 88%, from 0.41 per million population in 1990–1994 to 0.05 per million population in 2005–2007. The decline occurred in all age groups, and there was an extremely high reduction among children and adolescents younger than 20 years (97%) and among subjects younger than 50 years overall (96%)."

Further, from my CDC link, incidence for varicella has continued to go down, even just since 2002 (after the second dose was added to the schedule).

"Notifiable Disease Surveillance System (NNDSS), declined by 45% from 2000 to 2005 with an additional 77% decline from 2006 to 2010 after the second dose of varicella vaccine was recommended. Overall, varicella declined 82% from 2000 to 2010. "

http://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/hcp/mo...varicella.html

"
06-24-2014 01:40 PM
serenbat
Quote:
Originally Posted by happilymomma2 View Post

I'm not sure how to do all the quoting I'd like to but I copied and pasted the one I'd like to address the most.



Eta: http://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/hcp/co...veillance.html
just hit the QUOTE button on the bottom right side

I got what you meant to say I don't think others will be confused by it!
06-24-2014 01:29 PM
happilymomma2 Quote Tea Cozy "Your "theory" was that the vaccine was shifting the burden of disease onto older age brackets, and you even compared it to murder (hence why I linked the decrease in varicella deaths). Clearly that's not true, or we would have see a huge increase in death rates in the adult population after introducing the vaccine. The opposite has happened, the vaccine has saved lives in every single age bracket. The CDC link I posted (which I'm guessing you didn't read) also had incidence statistics. No surprise, the incidence of chickenpox is way down as well."

I'm not sure how to do all the quoting I'd like to but I copied and pasted the one I'd like to address the most.

Varicella vaccination wasn't implemented in the US until 1995. That means that the children who were beginning to receive this vaccine at that time are less than 20 years old. It is true that children between the ages of 13 and 17 who had no prior physical history of chickenpox received the vaccine but admittedly that number was most likely quite low. So my point is that we have no idea if this vaccine prevents chickenpox in adulthood from the childhood schedule. No one can tell you if it may prevent shingles in your child. It's too new to tell.

As far as your statistics about how many deaths this vaccine is preventing... The cdc didn't require reporting of varicella related deaths until 1999 so I can't imagine that the information is quite accurate since the data from before that time may not be complete. The CDC didn't require reporting of the chickenpox illness until 2002. That is 7 years after the vaccination campaign had been implemented! How accurate can before and after data really be if it simply was not being monitored?

Eta: http://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/hcp/conducting-surveillance.html
06-24-2014 12:24 PM
samaxtics
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacozy View Post
Very sad case.

He suffered a very severe and rare complication from chickenpox, and while it looks like there were some obvious missteps in getting him properly admitted, the coroner ruled that there is no evidence that it would have made a difference in this little boy's case.

At the end of the article it says:

"At the inquest, the coroner reviewed all the care Fabio had received and concluded there was no evidence that the outcome for Fabio would have been different had he been admitted sooner."
Quote:
Fabio had suffered from severe eczema outbreaks since he was a baby - he'd even seen the GP two weeks earlier because his skin had become so sore. The chickenpox spots just made it worse,' says Anna.
So despite having seen this child for severe eczema two weeks before, this doctor's office didn't think it was necessary for the child to be seen? And then a week after the spots appeared the mum phones the office again:

Quote:
He had a high temperature and could barely open his eyes because they were so swollen,' recalls Anna tearfully. 'But the receptionist told me a home visit wasn't necessary and that I should give him a cool bath and some Calpol. At no point did she consult a doctor.
The child's condition worsens over the next 24 hours, the mum calls the office and was referred to an after hours service so she asks her brother for a ride to the Emergency dept. Instead of being admitted, they are given antibiotics and told to give him ibuprofen.

3-4 days later they have to call for an ambulance and the paramedics advise to leave the child at home and only after the parents insist do they take the child to the emerg where he has to wait hours to be seen.

Very odd Teacozy how you list the coroner's conclusion but you miss these statements:

Quote:
Now an independent investigation team, led by paediatric doctors and nurses from nearby Darent Valley Hospital, has published a damning 26-page report on what went wrong with Fabio's care at East Surrey Hospital.
The report reveals a catalogue of 'missed opportunities' to treat the boy's condition earlier and more aggressively, poor communication between doctors and a culture where nurses said they felt unable to challenge medical opinion.
Names of staff are blacked out, but the report clearly states the care provided by three doctors at the hospital 'fell below the standard expected from a paediatric unit in a District General Hospital'.
my bold

SMH
06-24-2014 12:01 PM
teacozy
Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
Your numbers in post 28 say otherwise.

Please note the definitional differences between morbidity and mortality when you discuss so called vaccine preventable diseases.

We are both speaking American English here, correct?

Your "theory" was that the vaccine was shifting the burden of disease onto older age brackets, and you even compared it to murder (hence why I linked the decrease in varicella deaths). Clearly that's not true, or we would have see a huge increase in death rates in the adult population after introducing the vaccine. The opposite has happened, the vaccine has saved lives in every single age bracket. The CDC link I posted (which I'm guessing you didn't read) also had incidence statistics. No surprise, the incidence of chickenpox is way down as well.
06-24-2014 11:42 AM
applejuice Your numbers in post 28 say otherwise.

Please note the definitional differences between morbidity and mortality when you discuss so called vaccine preventable diseases.

We are both speaking American English here, correct?
06-24-2014 11:34 AM
teacozy
Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post

What modern medicine has done is shift all of the childhood diseases to more dangerous age brackets. That is not progress, that is murder.
Interesting theory, except that's not what has happened.

"Varicella deaths declined by 98.5% in children and adolescents less than 20 years of age during 2008 to 2009 compared with 1990 to 1994. Deaths declined by 96% in adults less than 50 years of age and by 49% in adults 50 years of age or older."

http://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/hcp/mo...varicella.html

See the study "Near Elimination of Varicella Deaths in the US After Implementation of the Vaccination Program" in Pediatrics for more exact numbers.
06-24-2014 11:31 AM
serenbat
Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
Therefore it is better to have chicken pox as a child than as a teenager or adult.

What modern medicine has done is shift all of the childhood diseases to more dangerous age brackets. That is not progress, that is murder.

I suspect most complications in these harmless childhood diseases could be from the OTC medications given that exacerbate symptoms and pre-existing conditions and cause death or life-threatening illnesses. But no one is going to study that because there is no $ in learning whether or not this is true.
the exact same can and should be repeated with the MMR and when that wears off - childbearing age!
06-24-2014 11:19 AM
applejuice
Quote:
Death rate for children 1 in 100,000. Death rate for teenagers, almost 3 in 100,000. Death rate for adults, 25 per 100,000.
Therefore it is better to have chicken pox as a child than as a teenager or adult.

What modern medicine has done is shift all of the childhood diseases to more dangerous age brackets. That is not progress, that is murder.

I suspect most complications in these harmless childhood diseases could be from the OTC medications given that exacerbate symptoms and pre-existing conditions and cause death or life-threatening illnesses. But no one is going to study that because there is no $ in learning whether or not this is true.
06-24-2014 10:43 AM
teacozy
Quote:
Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
Third leading cause of death is not chickenpox; it is medical care.

How many of these chickenpox deaths are related more to the care than the disease itself?

This story is titled "chickenpox killed our son" (probably to bring the varicella vaccine to the UK schedule) but read through, it was clearly inadequate medical care that cost this child his life.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...-appeared.html
Very sad case.

He suffered a very severe and rare complication from chickenpox, and while it looks like there were some obvious missteps in getting him properly admitted, the coroner ruled that there is no evidence that it would have made a difference in this little boy's case.

At the end of the article it says:

"At the inquest, the coroner reviewed all the care Fabio had received and concluded there was no evidence that the outcome for Fabio would have been different had he been admitted sooner."

This is another case from the UK http://www.vaccinestoday.eu/vaccines...een-prevented/

Her daughter was immediately admitted, and outwardly she didn't even look all that bad. But she died anyway, and it was found at her autopsy that she died due to chickenpox lesions being in her lungs.
06-24-2014 10:11 AM
serenbat
Quote:
Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
Third leading cause of death is not chickenpox; it is medical care.

How many of these chickenpox deaths are related more to the care than the disease itself?

This story is titled "chickenpox killed our son" (probably to bring the varicella vaccine to the UK schedule) but read through, it was clearly inadequate medical care that cost this child his life.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...-appeared.html
It's STILL officially MILD in the UK! VS our talk on it here - NHS http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/chicken...roduction.aspx

Chickenpox is a mild and common childhood illness that most children catch at some point.
06-24-2014 09:32 AM
samaxtics Third leading cause of death is not chickenpox; it is medical care.

How many of these chickenpox deaths are related more to the care than the disease itself?

This story is titled "chickenpox killed our son" (probably to bring the varicella vaccine to the UK schedule) but read through, it was clearly inadequate medical care that cost this child his life.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...-appeared.html
06-24-2014 09:11 AM
teacozy
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
We cannot know how many people have a severe vaccine reaction as the methods for judging those are quite flawed.

OTOH, we do have decent stats on chicken pox risks.
You never responded about which part of my "chickenpox risk- inflating" sentence you disagreed with

Anyway, I disagree that we don't have an extremely good idea about the risks of the vaccine.

I agree, however, that we have decent stats on chickenpox risks. I also know that if those risks were attached to a vaccine it would be pulled off the market.

Death rate for children 1 in 100,000. Death rate for teenagers, almost 3 in 100,000. Death rate for adults, 25 per 100,000.

That's just deaths, mind you.

Other side effects:

pneumonia, meningitis, encephalitis that can lead to seizures and coma, Reye syndrome, Guillain barre syndrome, hemorrhagic varicella, myocarditis (inflamed heart wall), orchitis, hepatitis, flesh eating bacteria, streptococcal toxic shock syndrome, permanent hearing loss, permanent scarring and much much more.

Lets not pretend that if these were listed under known effects of a vaccine that NVers wouldn't be horrified.
06-24-2014 08:52 AM
teacozy
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post
Not quite. From the CDC link you posted upthread:

"A case-control study conducted from 1997 to 2003 showed that 1 dose of varicella vaccine was 97% effective in the first year after vaccination and 86% effective in the second year. From the second to eighth year after vaccination, the vaccine effectiveness remained stable at 81 to 86%. Most vaccinated children who developed varicella during the 8 years after vaccination had mild disease.(1)"
Thanks, missed that. But that is only for a single dose of the vaccine correct? Two doses is generally going to make the effectiveness higher.

Anyway, the point still stands. A vaccine that is 86% effective is hardly "irrelevant". (That's not directed at you, by the way.)
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