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  Topic Review (Newest First)
07-23-2014 10:37 PM
katelove Ah, no, mine totally filled the pan. It was touching the sides at the end of the second rise. So clearly I put far too much dough in to start with.

It is enamelled but it's round rather than oval and not huge. I shall try again with a much smaller quantity.
07-23-2014 10:32 PM
Smokering Hmm. I've never greased my Dutch oven or had a problem with sticking. Is yours enameled? I use a really big oval Dutch oven. The bread isn't supposed to fill it up like bread dough in a loaf tin - there should be some space around the loaf (to contain the lovely moist steamy air, which helps with oven spring). My square of baking paper usually ends up a few centimetres up each narrow side of the oval, which is enough to keep even a round boule from touching the sides. I've had the odd occasion where a few centimetres of loaf touched the sides, but it didn't stick - maybe because by the time it 'grew' to touch the sides it had already formed something of a crust?

Curious!
07-23-2014 12:19 AM
katelove Hm, that's interesting about over proofing. I wonder if that's where I went wrong today. My Dutch oven loaf didn't spring but it has a lovely crust. Do you grease the Dutch oven? I did the cornmeal and baking paper on the base and lightly oiled the sides but it stuck badly around the sides.

The second loaf I did in an ordinary tin with a tray of water in the base of the oven. I managed a modest spring. Certainly better than I've achieved before.

I used my standard loaf recipe but made it wetter than I usually do.
07-22-2014 11:14 PM
Smokering Are you sure you weren't over-proofing it? One of the things I learned on The Fresh Loaf (great site, incidentally) is that one of the most common mistakes in breadmaking is to overproof on the final rise. It shouldn't double, apparently; it needs to have rising 'room' to spring in the oven, as it were, or it'll just sort of sit there or worse, collapse. I only proof mine for about an hour (with a smaller amount of yeast than most recipes call for).
07-22-2014 04:59 AM
ollyoxenfree I made a list of suggestions for encouraging oven spring when I was having trouble with a recipe.You may want to experiment to see if just 1 of the suggestions works.

Before you start baking, make sure the final proof was adequate. The dough should spring back nicely when you poke it.

1. Wet the dough just before baking by spraying with water

2. Place a pan of water in the bottom of the oven

3. Use a baking stone or invert a baking sheet and place it in the oven while it pre-heats.

4. Pre-heat the oven 25 to 50 degrees Farenheit hotter than the recipe asks, then decrease the heat to the recipe's temperature (a) when you pit the bread in the oven or (b) after the first 10 minutes of baking.

Full disclosure, I never did manage a nice oven spring with the recipe I was using. I also experimented with the amont of yeast and the kneading and proofing times, but nothing seemed to work. I don't make it anymore.
07-22-2014 02:19 AM
katelove Oh cool, thank you! I will give that a try tomorrow.
07-21-2014 11:26 PM
Smokering Oven spring? Cook it in a Dutch oven. Night and day, seriously.

I use a big oval enamelled cast-iron one. First I heat the oven up HOT - 250C - for about 25 minutes. Then I pop the loaf (boule, usually) in on its square of baking paper. I coat the bottom of my Dutch oven with a layer of coarse cornmeal to prevent the bottom of the loaf scorching - I change it occasionally, but it lasts for several bakes.

Then I sprinkle a bit of water around the sides of the Dutch oven and on the lid, and pop it in the oven for about 40 minutes, turning the oven down a bit to 220ish after the first few minutes. Then I haul it out, take off the lid and inspect. If it doesn't look done, the lid goes back on and it goes back in for 10-15 minutes. If it looks done but pale, it goes back in for 10 minutes or so with the lid off. If it looks done and nicely browned, well, it's done.

You get more oven spring with high hydration doughs, but even fairly 'dry' doughs benefit from this method. Lovely oven spring, slashes open up beautifully, and you can get really great chewy, non-wimpy crusts. I love it.
07-21-2014 07:26 PM
katelove LOL! I don't understand yet but I'm planning to start a sour dough starter once the weather warms up so I'm probably looking into my future :-)

On another matter, how do people get oven spring? I happy with the taste and texture of most of my things now but they are all still much flatter than I'd like.
07-21-2014 08:05 AM
ollyoxenfree Reviving this thread to report that I have become a slave to sourdough. I figured people here might understand.

I started following the Bourke Street Bakery feeding schedule over a month ago. I am getting beautiful loaves but since I hate just throwing away the starter when I feed it, I have been making endless amounts of waffles, crumpets, apple spice bread, banana bread etc.

Yesterday I made a plain boule, a spiced fruit sourdough loaf, 2 apple spiced cakes and i still have a bucket of discarded starter in the fridge.
09-28-2013 02:44 AM
katelove I did. Mixed results. The flavour was good. I followed the recipe but halved the sugar. I'm glad I did, we wouldn't have wanted it any sweeter.

The texture was pretty good. Not at light and feathery as the pictures on the blog. It looked a bit more cake-y.

The main problem though was that it didn't rise in the oven. First rise was fine. Second rise, in the pans, was fine. But then it didn't rise at all after that. So I had three fairly flat loaves.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

We ate the first loaf and ive frozen the other two to make roasted veggie sandwiches with.
09-27-2013 12:52 AM
Smokering
Quote:
 I just printed out the milk bread recipe you mentioned from Our Daily Loaf. Children permitting I'm going to try it today.

Ooh, did you? The recipe intrigues me. I've been meaning to try tangzhong in a regular bread recipe - apparently it helps with the ever-elusive goal of getting light, fluffy wholemeal bread. So far I've only made the basic recipe and a savoury variation (no sugar, subbing one cup of flour with fine cornmeal). It's amazingly shreddy and pillowy and soft. It *is* sort of bland and supermarkety - I wouldn't want it every day - but it works really well as hot dog buns or little soft rolls with garlic butter. I've gotten compliments every time I've made it.

 

Made another batch of sourdough today. This time I soaked the kibbled grains longer before adding them to the dough (a Good Thing; they were a tad too crunchy last time), and added a bit of rye flour. The dough's quite slack, so I baked one lot in a loaf tin (which juuuuust fit in the Dutch oven!) The other had to be freeform because my cake tins were busy, and it turned out pretty flat. Yummy though.

 

The crust on these things is incredible - you could slit your wrists on it. It's actually quite hard to cut. Yummy, though! DH loves it, especially with lots of butter and honey. And I do enjoy the 'magic' of watching sourdough work - I'm always faintly surprised when it rises. I remember as a little kid worrying very hard about the origins of bread - where did they get the yeast from? How did they know how to make something so complicated? It makes a lot more sense now I know about sourdough. :p

09-24-2013 06:26 PM
katelove
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post

Kate, do you mean using a single blade of the scissors like a knife, or snipping the dough?

My sourdough loaves slashed quite well with the serrated knife - I let them slow-rise uncovered in the fridge overnight, so they developed quite a solid 'crust' (another trick from The Fresh Loaf), and I wet the knife before slashing. I still want to get a razor, but the fancy kitchenware shop had never heard of 'em.

Your loaves look lovely! Do you taste the flaxmeal?

Thanks :-) I used a spray bottle to spritz them with water before I put them in the oven. I read that tip in the River Cottage Bread book, which is also where I get my basic bread recipe from. You can't really taste the flax but it lightens the texture quite a bit. The straight wholemeal is pretty dense.

I use the scissors to snip the dough instead of slashing. I open the scissors as wide as they'll go and then do a long but shallow snip. It's a bit hard to describe. It worked well for the stickier dough that the knife dragged through.

I just printed out the milk bread recipe you mentioned from Our Daily Loaf. Children permitting I'm going to try it today.
09-24-2013 04:59 PM
kitchensqueen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
 

Maybe this time I won't let my starter die of neglect.

 

No matter what I do I can't keep a sourdough starter alive. Anyone have any tips? 

09-24-2013 02:57 PM
Smokering

Kate, do you mean using a single blade of the scissors like a knife, or snipping the dough?

 

My sourdough loaves slashed quite well with the serrated knife - I let them slow-rise uncovered in the fridge overnight, so they developed quite a solid 'crust' (another trick from The Fresh Loaf), and I wet the knife before slashing. I still want to get a razor, but the fancy kitchenware shop had never heard of 'em.

 

Your loaves look lovely! Do you taste the flaxmeal?

09-23-2013 10:18 PM
katelove
09-23-2013 10:14 PM
katelove I have been making wholemeal rolls with oats and flaxmeal. I'm having trouble getting them to stay a nice shape but the taste and texture is great.

Smokering, have you tried "slashing" with scissors? I've had some luck on loaves using that method.
09-23-2013 08:22 PM
Smokering

Just made the nicest sourdough I've ever baked! The Fresh Loaf informed me that for a less acidic, more yoghurty tang you should keep the starter quite liquid, whereas for a more pronounced sour taste it should be stiff. I've never liked sourdough, but DH asked me to make some, so I did it with the liquidy starter and it was delicious! I wouldn't have picked it as sourdough at all. All white flour, but with kibbled grains. The loaves weren't as high or pretty as I'd like, especially as I'm giving one away; but hey, they taste good.

 

Maybe this time I won't let my starter die of neglect.

09-18-2013 04:17 AM
Smokering

Well, the ciabatta turned out fine, so... who knows.

 

I made fougasse! Basic white dough with a bit of semolina, 70% hydration (which seemed ridiculously dry by my new standards!) Made three loaves and tried a different shaping/slashing method with each - what works best is to shape and slash on a floured bench, then transfer to parchment and allow to rise. It helps the slits open up and gives a more rustic, less neat look. I pounded garlic, rosemary, rock salt and olive oil together and spread it on the loaves before baking, and pushed some whole olives in here and there (which was really yummy - I should use whole olives more often.) Did two loaves with white sesame seeds sprinkled on top, and one with black. Served 'em with olive oil, balsamic vinegar and dukkah. And it was nice. :) I think I'll make it again for Saturday.

 

09-15-2013 08:54 PM
Smokering

Heh - well, I'd already started the bread when I came down with the lurgy, so it had to be done. Mostly better now, thanks! :)

 

Just had an odd experience with the ciabatta. I was making the same dough as usual - 95% hydration, 150g semolina flour and 350g flour. I don't have any high-grade flour, so I used the posh pizza flour I bought the other day and added in a Tbsp or so of gluten. Then I decided to chuck in just a touch of sourdough starter. SIL gave me some of her rye starter which I've been feeding into wheatiness, and I thought maybe just a tiny splash would add some nice depth of flavour. And then I couldn't remember if the recipe used 1/2 tsp or 2 tsp yeast, but figured I'd use the lower amount and could let it slow-rise overnight if necessary.

 

I don't know if it was the runniness of the sourdough start mucking up the hydration, the lack of yeast or the use of the pizza flour, but the stuff WOULD NOT go doughy. I beat it for - no exaggeration - 40 minutes in the stand mixture and it just kept slopping around like pancake batter. Eventually in desperation I added another spoonful of flour, and then another, and then the rest of the yeast. Not sure which did the trick, but after another 10 minutes or so it was fine. It seems to be its usual marshmallowy, goopy self now, and I hope it'll turn out OK - but what went wrong? Any ideas? Seems funny that just a tiny bit of extra hydration would make that much difference...

 

Anyway, assuming it turns out OK I'm going to make two of the loaves into a yummy picnic lunch for tomorrow. What you do is slice the entire loaf in half like a panini, fill it with yummy things (I'll do butter, fancy cheese, salami and tapenade - thank you, gift voucher to the fancy grocer!), then sort of squoosh it down and let it meld for several hours. It's supposed to be very nice.

 

Then this Saturday we're having a BBQ here for a friend's surprise party. I'm in charge of dessert (pumpkin spice layer cake with salted caramel cream cheese icing, and coffee ripple ice cream) and breads. Think I'll do ciabatta because I can't resist showing it off, and then maybe some savoury Hokkaido hot dog buns, and then... fougasse? I've never made that before, but I've been hankering to. What do you do with it, though, exactly? Just pull off hunks and eat it?

09-12-2013 07:46 PM
kitchensqueen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
 

Anyone still baking?

 

My white loaves are getting more successful. I made a 75% hydration rye loaf the other day, but I'd forgotten how thirsty rye is - it soaked up all the liquid and made a very stiff dough. Turned out pretty, but it wasn't really 'artisan'.

 

Bought a grunty metal dough scraper and a smaller, flexible, curved pastry scraper.

 

DH is reluctantly spreading out some 80% hydration rosemary pizza dough, because I'm too sick to do it. Because of said sickness it's not as gluten-developed as it should be - I gave it the odd stretch-and-fold in the bowl with a spoon when I could haul myself out of bed, but I wasn't up to much tender loving care. Curious to see how it turns out, though - I'm using 00 pizza flour, fancy stuff from the wholesale restaurant supply shop. It was one of those "Hmm, do I really want this to work?" purchases - it's twice as expensive as regular flour. But hey, Art comes at a price. :p

 

​I have been exceedingly lazy in the baking department as of late. I've been doing muffins every week, mostly pumpkin and chocolate chip, and if you think about it and stretch the rules a bit muffins are kind of a form of quick bread, which is vaguely bread-like so therefore I think it should count. 

 

The weather is starting to cool finally (I think - it's been yo-yo-ing a bit recently) so proper bread baking is on my radar again. I;m thinking about doing up a rye loaf on Sunday. And for some reason, I keep thinking about Parker House rolls, so I may give those a go. 

 

And you are directing the bread baking from your sick bed!? This is hard core; you're taking this to another level here. And I hope you feel better soon! 

09-11-2013 10:43 PM
Smokering

Anyone still baking?

 

My white loaves are getting more successful. I made a 75% hydration rye loaf the other day, but I'd forgotten how thirsty rye is - it soaked up all the liquid and made a very stiff dough. Turned out pretty, but it wasn't really 'artisan'.

 

Bought a grunty metal dough scraper and a smaller, flexible, curved pastry scraper.

 

DH is reluctantly spreading out some 80% hydration rosemary pizza dough, because I'm too sick to do it. Because of said sickness it's not as gluten-developed as it should be - I gave it the odd stretch-and-fold in the bowl with a spoon when I could haul myself out of bed, but I wasn't up to much tender loving care. Curious to see how it turns out, though - I'm using 00 pizza flour, fancy stuff from the wholesale restaurant supply shop. It was one of those "Hmm, do I really want this to work?" purchases - it's twice as expensive as regular flour. But hey, Art comes at a price. :p

09-04-2013 03:27 AM
Smokering

A muted woot for moderate success! Made a 75% hydration white boule today. I added a bit of gluten, did the slap-and-fold for ages and then about five sets of stretch-and-folds 20 minutes apart. It was still kind of sticky at the end - definitely stuck to the bench, unlike the YouTube guy's lovely silky dough - but it got noticeably firmer and more elastic between rests, and wasn't completely slumping everywhere by the end. Then I did the bulk ferment on the bench, preshaped and shaped it with just a little flour, rose in a bowl on parchment, and baked in the Dutch oven.

 

It rose - it isn't a football like my regular-hydration loaves were, but it's a very respectable-looking loaf, and had a ton of oven spring. The crumb is holey! The crust is nice and thick. And it tastes good.

 

So yay! I'm still not 100% satisfied. I undercooked it a bit - the crust browned too fast. Next time I'll turn the heat down after awhile and maybe keep the lid of the Dutch oven on longer. And my slashing still needs a lot of work - the serrated knife just isn't good enough. I need a razor blade. (And man, I REALLY need a dough scraper! I'm sick of cleaning dried-on dough off the bench.)

 

Still, this is the closest I've come so far. Also, that white dough with mixed grains turned out to be rather yummy. Go figure.

09-02-2013 03:57 PM
Smokering

Grr. It seems I still have a long way to go on high-hydration doughs.

 

I did the slap-and-fold thing, which was great fun, and then rested it and repeated at 20-minute intervals four or five times. It never came together like the YouTube guy's. For a few seconds it would look nice and taut, and then it would just go 'bleeugh' and slump down flat onto the table again. Very annoying. I don't know if it was the small quantity of wholemeal flour cutting the gluten strands, or what. Eventually I added some soaked wholegrains.

 

Shaped it as best I could, put it upside-down in a bowl and did a retarded rise overnight. This morning it was a tad reluctant to leave the bowl, which had been WELL oiled and floured - that's how runny it was. Turned it out onto parchment, and by the time I got my hot mini-Dutch oven ready it had slumped again. Stuffed it in the oven, which I put inside a larger lidded Dutch oven (both hot) and baked.

 

It's a decent-looking loaf - got some oven spring, at least - but the runniness of the dough meant the folds of baking paper around it left little wriggly wrinkles in the sides. And the slashes didn't really do their pretty slashy thing.

 

I am meekly not cutting into it until cooled, for the sake of the crust. Hopefully it'll taste good, at least. But this is all extremely vexing. I WILL conquer this! (said Mr Darcy.) Maybe I'll try a completely white loaf next time, just to avoid possible issues with the bran.

 

Mum mentioned that she tried the artisan bread thing several years back, and found that it didn't work as well as advertised because NZ flour isn't as strong, or has different protein percentages, or something. There might be something in that. I looked at the Mediterranean grocer for fancy flour and they didn't sell any; should try the gourmet food store in town. I don't want to be buying expensive flours, but if it works...

09-01-2013 06:27 PM
kitchensqueen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
 

I might give them a go at some stage. I tend to be leery of historical fiction though, if it's a period I'm really interested in; just because it frustrates me not knowing which bits are factual and which are the results of sloppy research, Hollywood-style sexing-up, turning insignificant female players into scheming villains in the name of feminism, anachronistic dialogue, artistic licence and so on. I like to know what I know about something, y'know?

 

Yesterday's ciabatta turned out the best of all, although I have no idea why. :p I sort of squooshed the dough together and turned it under as best I could during the final shaping, and it may have helped with the oven spring.

 

We don't really need any more bread, but last night I couldn't resist autolysing some flour anyway! I was going for a 75% hydration formula - mostly white flour, with a bit of wholemeal and semolina - but due to the lateness of the hour I might have accidentally used 600g instead of 500g of flour. I can't be sure, but it was definitely not a slack dough this morning. So I squooshed some extra water in. I'll start the slap-and-fold technique in a minute (my main reason for wanting to make the bread!) In the meantime I'm soaking some mixed kibbled grains and will add them to the dough at some undetermined future stage...

 

Yeah I know what you mean about the historical fiction - I used to be the same way. But Gregory's stuff is just so well done!

 

I had a dream the other night that we had like eight loaves of bread in our house, but I still needed more. Clearly this fits your house more than mine lately! 

09-01-2013 03:17 PM
Smokering

I might give them a go at some stage. I tend to be leery of historical fiction though, if it's a period I'm really interested in; just because it frustrates me not knowing which bits are factual and which are the results of sloppy research, Hollywood-style sexing-up, turning insignificant female players into scheming villains in the name of feminism, anachronistic dialogue, artistic licence and so on. I like to know what I know about something, y'know?

 

Yesterday's ciabatta turned out the best of all, although I have no idea why. :p I sort of squooshed the dough together and turned it under as best I could during the final shaping, and it may have helped with the oven spring.

 

We don't really need any more bread, but last night I couldn't resist autolysing some flour anyway! I was going for a 75% hydration formula - mostly white flour, with a bit of wholemeal and semolina - but due to the lateness of the hour I might have accidentally used 600g instead of 500g of flour. I can't be sure, but it was definitely not a slack dough this morning. So I squooshed some extra water in. I'll start the slap-and-fold technique in a minute (my main reason for wanting to make the bread!) In the meantime I'm soaking some mixed kibbled grains and will add them to the dough at some undetermined future stage...

09-01-2013 01:28 PM
kitchensqueen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
 

Nope! I haven't read any Tudor fiction (is The Tudors fiction?) about the time period for some reason. Mostly non-fiction about QE1 and books about the clothing and politics of the times. The closest I've gotten to Phillippa Gregory is watching The Other Boleyn Girl, which didn't grab me.

 

Try the books - a million times better than the movies. For me, they're so addicting I can never put them down, and even re-read them. 

 

For bread this week, I'm shifting Sunday bread baking until tomorrow since I have it (mostly) off work. I'm going to do a rye sandwich bread, because I finally remembered to pick up rye flour at last grocery shop. I think I'll just do a couple of basic boules. 

08-31-2013 09:50 PM
Smokering

Nope! I haven't read any Tudor fiction (is The Tudors fiction?) about the time period for some reason. Mostly non-fiction about QE1 and books about the clothing and politics of the times. The closest I've gotten to Phillippa Gregory is watching The Other Boleyn Girl, which didn't grab me.

 

The savoury Hokkaido was really nice. I'm not sure whether I like it more than my regular hamburger bun dough or not - it was definitely softer, but I quite like the more substantial buns I usually make. Made the rest of the dough into little mini-buns topped with white and black sesame seeds, and they were a hit at church lunch today. A friend who briefly lived in China said they tasted just like the bread you can buy there, which was the idea, so yay!

 

Batch #3 of ciabatta is currently rising. DH requested it for Fathers' Day. I think the oven spring was just as good baking them on the stone as in the Dutch oven, so I'll do that again - way less hassle. And easier to fling droplets of water on 'em while they bake. I'm going to try to fold the dough on itself to get a slightly higher loaf this time, I think.

08-30-2013 06:43 PM
kitchensqueen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
 

Aspergic tendencies. :p I get single-mindedly obsessed with things, sometimes for years at a time. Never housework, sadly. But anything you want to know about the Parker-Hulme murder case, The Lord of the Rings (book or films) or selected aspects of Tudor England, I'm your girl. Or guru, if you prefer. Hopefully this will prove to be one of my more useful obsessions, at least... it's surprising how rarely one needs to know about the Parker-Hulme murder case.

 

The Tudors! Have you read The Tudors by G.J. Meyers? Or the most recent Phillippa Gregory novel?

 

Sorry everyone. I know I should not hijack this thread on bread with talk of historical royal dynasties, but it's a bit of an obsession for me...

 

Bread related - major fails lately. Hot weather is great for proofing, but who wants to pre-heat the oven to 500 in a 100 degree heat? I just can't do it... 

08-29-2013 09:44 PM
Smokering
Quote:
 But that is exactly why you are The Bread Guru. 

Aspergic tendencies. :p I get single-mindedly obsessed with things, sometimes for years at a time. Never housework, sadly. But anything you want to know about the Parker-Hulme murder case, The Lord of the Rings (book or films) or selected aspects of Tudor England, I'm your girl. Or guru, if you prefer. Hopefully this will prove to be one of my more useful obsessions, at least... it's surprising how rarely one needs to know about the Parker-Hulme murder case.

 

Currently halfway through baking Batch #2 of ciabatta. The semolina adds something - the crumb isn't quite as soft as last time (in a good way - it's more like fancy ciabattas I've bought). I'm baking them in a Dutch oven this time instead of on a baking stone. For such a peculiar dough the loaves are actually quite forgiving. I tried to reuse the baking paper for the second loaf and, being slightly burned and brittle, it tore when I was dumping the loaf into the red-hot Dutch Oven, slopping the dough all over the side. I hastily scooped it up and rearranged the drooping mass on a clean sheet of baking paper, but thought I'd ruined it. Nope - baked up nice and golden, with oven spring and everything. It looked better than the first loaf! It helps that ciabatta is meant to look rustic and misshapen...

 

Today I also mixed up my savoury Hokkaido, swapping 100gm flour for cornmeal, upping the salt and reducing the sugar. Put it in the oven for a retarded ferment. And I used the same bowl I used for the ciabatta without washing it, in the hopes that the leftover fragments of dough will act as a touch of preferment. (Also... lazy.)

 

We're having visitors tonight and tomorrow, so I've been cooking all day - the breads, sponge cake, tabbouleh, berry sorbet, glykinai and almendrados. Still have to do chicken and dukkah. Luckily the children are being low-maintenance and I'm having a lovely time!

 

ETA: Also, I saw a cool YouTube video last night by some French baker - can't remember who - on how to work with high-hydration doughs. He used a 'slap and fold' technique, which involves incorporating a sort of pocket of air into the dough with every move. Looked doable. It's so amazing to see the sloppy, sticky mess becoming smooth and sleek and workable. DH was (sort of) watching with me and I tried to get him to appreciate the awesomeness, but he wasn't impressed. I guess you need to have a few failed doughs to recognise the beauty of one that works!

08-29-2013 05:43 PM
kitchensqueen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
 

I got up at 6:45 to bake the bread this morning, because I'm a tad obsessed. 

 

But that is exactly why you are The Bread Guru. 

 

Have you read On Food & Cooking by Harold McGee? It's the bible of the science of cooking and I think you will find it excellent reading, if you haven't gone through it already. 

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