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  Topic Review (Newest First)
10-03-2006 11:39 PM
Momtezuma Tuatara
08-21-2006 07:19 PM
heidi_m Right on, sister! It's all about the almighty dollah.
08-21-2006 07:06 PM
Laurel723
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac'smama
What's interesting to me is if this was a discovery from way back when, I wonder why vit c is not used more frequently to treat pertussis nowadays??

http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorba...-p1884-eng.htm



http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorba...37-n2-p134.htm
It's not an RX so no one makes any $$$ from it.....

That's my thought, anyway...
08-21-2006 05:06 PM
heidi_m
02-04-2006 07:40 PM
Momtezuma Tuatara I've put the URL into the archive thread too
02-04-2006 02:04 PM
InDaPhunk WOW great thread, MT, TYVM for bumping!
02-04-2006 12:23 PM
Momtezuma Tuatara
02-22-2005 12:04 AM
Isaac'smama What's interesting to me is if this was a discovery from way back when, I wonder why vit c is not used more frequently to treat pertussis nowadays??

http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorba...-p1884-eng.htm



http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorba...37-n2-p134.htm
02-21-2005 11:43 PM
momto l&a Yikes! I just went to Amazon to look into Clemetson's book and used starts at $304.98.
Guess I wont be reading that book any time soon!
02-21-2005 11:13 PM
Momtezuma Tuatara You're welcome AMum.

I just wish that doctors would read Clemetson's 3-volume text, all the medical literature out there; Levy's book; Irwin Stone's old book; and put it all into practice, then you wouldn't have even got to the point of panic.

It's not like Vitamin C is lunatic fringe. It's one thing that is hugely written up in the medical literature to way back.

Same with Vitamin A. Yet so few of them can even spell sodium ascorbate, let alone that its not "just" a vitamin.

It's an anti-toxin, anti-viral and in a strange way, and anti-biotic.

It's one of the few things that is thoroughly covered in mainstream medical literature over many decades, yet, most doctors know practically zilch about.

And don't get me started on ridiculous RDAs either.

They were formulated by the non-scientifical crystal ball guessers incorporated.
02-21-2005 06:59 PM
AMum I've learned first hand that the ascorbic acid either directly into or through breastfeeding is no good for a tiny baby. My dd2 ended up with a horrible rash (mostly facial, but sore bum too) & a cranky disposition. I've switched to children's chewables & things are much improved. Rash is fading, baby is happier. I hate the chewables, but its worth it, yanno? We're giving my (soon to be) 6 yo ds 6g/day and my 2.5 yo 8g/day. I'm still trying to stay up around 10g/day for the baby.

for MT, what a mess my life would be w/o her valued information.
02-21-2005 05:23 PM
2busy2clean Momtezuma - thanks so much for your informative posts - thanks for caring enough to spread the word.

My 4 y.o. is doing fairly well with his whooping cough - one major coughing session during the night, and he is getting between 1 gram and 2 grams of ascorbic acid/day. He is one month into the disease and I began the Vit. C 9 days ago.

However my 4 month old has began to do little coughs for the last 3 days, very infrequently. I am currently taking a nutritional supplement that has 1 gram of Vit. C and lots of Vit. A and many minerals. I was trying to dose baby with ascorbic acid in the liquid form, which as I try to give him more of, he is not tolerating. So, It looks like I'll just drink the liquid - or give it to the 4 y.o. and increase my dosage. Thankfully, I have time to get my dosage up.

And... talking to the moms of the kids that my boy was around (not many, thankfully) it sounds like most of the kids are coming down with it. And they are all well vaxed kids.

Don't want to hijack the thread... just want to keep it on the top, cuz all the information is sooo good.
(and I'm very jealous of those peaches.)
02-19-2005 09:08 PM
Momtezuma Tuatara To AMum.

.

Glad you've got it sussed.

02-18-2005 01:32 PM
amnesiac I've used sodium ascorbate by both Source Naturals and NOW Foods. I prefer Source Naturals but my little shop usually only has the NOW so that's what I've got at the moment. I've ordered the Source Naturals online from VNF Nutrition before.
02-17-2005 03:44 PM
AMum bump
02-13-2005 01:13 PM
chevy974 I was on Bronssons looking for the sodium ascorbate and couldnt find it. I usually buy mine from Vitago but was interested in other brands as well is one better over hte other?

thanks
amy
02-12-2005 03:19 PM
Isaac'smama Oh, I'm so happy you're all continuing to do better!!!! That's so amazing about vitamin C. It's frustrating that it's not used in the mainstream for other little babies (or anyone!) who gets pertussis.
02-12-2005 03:03 PM
momto l&a Bronson labs is online. http://www.bronsonvitamins.com/index.../search/result
02-12-2005 02:11 PM
AMum Well, thank god for the vitamin C & the excellent advice I received from MT & others. I haven't been able to find sodium ascorbate locally, but I did find a place that will order it for me, I'm going to call back & place an order today. Thomas J. & Claire are taking vitamin C in mega doses of 8-10 500mg chewable tablets per day. Luckily, they love it! I am taking 1000mg pills & drinking the sour ascorbic acid. Luckily I have a palate for sour, I love sour candy & drink lemon water sometimes.

After getting home from the hospital I slacked a bit on my C intake & within 12 hours I noticed Lila getting worse. Pumped those levels back up & she's managing better. Talk about proof!

Thanks for all the prayers, well wishes & advice!!! Your help means the world to my family.
02-12-2005 01:46 PM
Isaac'smama Thanks so much for checking in! I'm sure you're quite busy, but if you are able, please let us know how your Dd (and your two older kids, too of course!) is doing! I'm so glad to hear she's home from the hospital!! That is frustrating that the Dr. didn't pick up on it!! s
02-10-2005 09:58 PM
AMum Okay, don't have a lot of time here & haven't yet fully read your reply MT. I am mega dosing my ds, dd1 & myself. I started taking a lot of vitamin C Friday (the day we were admitted to the ER) and was taking 12000 to 15000mg the entire time we were in the hospital. I have no doubt that that is why we are home now. The cough wouldn't have improved otherwise Lila would've ended up in the NICU. I have noticed how much it helps & we will continue to dose in this manner until we're all better.

I took dd2 to the ER b/c a) I did not have a full understanding of the vitamin C therapy b) I felt time was of the essence and I didn't have enough information at the time to feel comfortable treating at home. I would really be stupid to keep her home based on the recommendation of some posts I read on a bb. If she had died, how could I ever justify that to myself. Yes, now that I have more information I know I can manage this myself. Had I been prepared I could've handled it from the get go. But you know what? I still haven't been able to find sodium ascorbate from any local source. I am continueing to mega dose myself instead. I can handle drinking the water mixed with ascorbic acid.

I just printed out your posts so that I can read them more thoroughly & post a comprehensive reply.


Oh and if my doctor had picked this up in my 6 year old before the baby ever presented any symptoms it would TOTALLY have made a difference!!! DUH! I could've researched this & found all of this information & been ready & prepared to treat my dd's.
02-09-2005 02:52 PM
momto l&a How where those peaches?

So toxins would no doubt require C by IV but if we are taking the right amount of C a day then most diseases shouldnt be a problem. Correct? I have someone lined up to do an IV should we need one. Though like you mentioned time is of essance.

Thats disturbing about vitamin deficiencies. I know for myself that my dd gets a funny patch of skin on her leg when she doesnt take her vitamins for over 2 weeks. Have no clue unfortunatley what she is deficient in though. I as a child had many earaches till my Mom discovered I needed A.

We have a friend that has ALS and I am trying to get him to get his dr (some type of a natural one) to do vit C by IV. Levy mentioned in his book about Vit C and ALS though it was a very short mention unfortunately.

Ok now that I have taken this thread off topic I am going to go take some C
Thanks to you MT all who know me are getting to know the virtues of C :LOL
02-09-2005 10:18 AM
Isaac'smama to you and you family. Please let us know how your daughter is doing as you are able.
02-09-2005 03:42 AM
Momtezuma Tuatara
Quote:
Originally Posted by momto l&a
MT, in Levy's book most of the vitamin C mentioned in the studies he compiled was given by IV or injection. The Dr that got you going on C did he ever mention giving C that way?
Oops, sorry. Stuffing my face on peaches and missed your post.

Yes he does. But the problem is that most doctors don't even belief in anything above 60mg vitamin C a day, let alone that vitamin C can be used to good effect in higher doses.

so to get anyone to do that, is very hard.

The other interesting thing is in working with Dr Archie Kalokerinos, who also has written three books now, all of which deal in some way with vitamin C, he says that in his clinical practice, he has noticed that Vitamin C potentiates antibiotics. He only uses 2/3rds the normal dose of antibiotics.

Quote:
I would be interested in giving C that way should the need ever arise because of the vast amounts that can be gotten into the body in a short period of time.

What are your thoughts?
My thoughts are, theoretically, if you get enough into you every day, your body should never get to the point where you would need to consider that.

The only diseases that I would consider would need that sort of intervention are haemorrhagic meningitis, (which can be of any variant. The minute you see skin petechia, you know huge amounts of vitamin C are called for... ) But even then, I wouldn't be waiting to find someone capable or willing to administer it through the drip. I'd be getting it in hand over fist orally, because time is of the essence.

The other diseases would be Ebola and Haemorrhagic Smallpox in the event of some terrorist outbreak. Given that Alibek is convinced that should terrorists use smallpox, it would be an Ebola/smallpox/camel pox, or some deviant like combination.

(In which case, of course, the proposed USA plan to smallpox vaccinate the country would only be of use in order to temporarily quell public paranoia. Until, that is, it became obvious that the vaccine was unmatched to the new variant.)

But in day to day life, most common infections, including Pertussis, should never get to the point where you would need to consider intravenous injections, providing that you get enough every day.

In talking to the nutritional doctors today, its incredible how common vitamin C deficiency is amongst supposedly normal people. Even more frightening are basic mineral deficiencies like magnesium and zinc. People think that because they are walking around talking they are fine, when in fact, huge numbers out there have deficiencies they have no idea about.

and that applies to babies too.

See here:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?...jectID=9006061


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
02-09-2005 03:20 AM
Momtezuma Tuatara Yes I will say more.

Lets have a look at how this drug works:

http://www.medicinenet.com/azithromycin/article.htm

Quote:
Azithromycin is a semi-synthetic macrolide antibiotic chemically related to erythromycin and clarithromycin (Biaxin). ...

Azithromycin, like all macrolide antibiotics, prevents bacteria from growing by interfering with their ability to make proteins.

PRESCRIBED FOR: Azithromycin is effective against susceptible bacteria causing infections of the middle ear, tonsillitis, throat infections, laryngitis, bronchitis, pneumonia and sinuses. It is also effective against certain sexually transmitted infectious diseases, such as nongonococcal urethritis and cervicitis.

Azithromycin should be taken at least one hour before or two hours after meals since it may bind to food and not be absorbed from the intestine. For most infections, azithromycin is taken once daily for a relatively short course of treatment (usually five days).
Okay?

Now, lets have a look at what the pertussis bacteria does.

It adheres to receptors on the outside of cells at the base of the cilia in the bronchials, and then switches on a toxin, which is responsible for cutting off the cilia in the bronchials.

As I said above, whooping cough starts looking like a mild cold, and its only after a month into the course of the disease, that people connect the dots, and make the connection.

By that time, the damage is done.

Why is that? This is why.

What happens is that its the cilia that sweeps mucus up, around and out of the lungs all the time. This is a normal process, and happens all the time, whether we are disease free or not. It has to happen. If it did not, then the mucus would become static, and be infiltrated with all sorts of bacteria and the like and we would be overwhelmed with infection.

So every day, as you walk around, all the mucus in your lungs is circulated out of the lungs, and new mucus secreted into the lungs, and the bacteria in that mucus is dealt with by the inate immune system, and some passes into your gut where it is dealt with by stomach acid and other immunological "guardians" so to speak.

Your daughter is coughing like mad, because over the last three weeks, the bacteria has gradually cut off all those cilia, so the mucus which is normally swept up, is now pooling in ever larger amounts at the bottom of the bronchials. So once it gets to a critical mass, which in babies is usually about every hour, when it builds up to a glob down there... Her body suddenly says:

Oi !!!!

This has to be got out of here, or I will drown in mucus.


The only way to get it out is to cough it out.

These hairs will take about six month to grow back again. So her coughing is not going to stop, just like that.

The damage that the pertussis bacteria does by cutting off the cilia, has already been done.

No amount of antibiotics will fix that now. Also, because the bacteria of whooping cough is not IN the body, but is IN the mucus, antibiotics are not very effective in stopping the whooping cough bacteria multiplying, because the bacteria isn't intracellular.

So you give this antibiotic into her mouth, and it has to travel through her stomach, and think what it will destroy on its way. the warnings above, should give you some idea. Then it has to go through her body, through her lungs, killing all sorts of stuff along that path too, and somehow enough has to be secreted out of the bronchials into the mucus, there, supposedly to stop the bacteria multiplying?

I've nothing against you giving it a go. Who am I to say you shouldn't. This is just my instinct screaming out here, now....

So, you say. Why is she turning blue?

She is turning blue because of all the coughing she is doing to stop herself drowning. that takes a hell of a lot of effort, and you can reduce that, by knowing how to hold her, and how to reduce the stress on her muscles.

I hope the person who PM'd you, also sent you the collection of posts I sent to her.

Amongst that was this:

Quote:
But you still have to know how to manage it, because the problem with whooping cough in babies is the quantity of mucus it produces and the babies relative inability to use the stomach muscles to cough properly. If that mucus is not shifted, then secondary bacterial infections set in, and it is these which can cause the problems of secondary bacterial infections like pneumonia.

With any cough, particularly whooping cough, here is what I do. I turn the baby round, with its back to mine. I split my legs, so the baby is supported around the tummy but the legs are straight down. My hands make a net around the baby’s ribcage and tummy, and when the baby coughs, I lean forward slightly and use the hands as a very gentle net so that the baby has something for the tummy to push against. I give the baby some pressure to use, but I do not press in hard. They haven't learned to control their abdominal muscles to get an efficient cough yet, so that hands make it much easier for them.

If it is whooping cough, then you will get a thick clear mucusy glob ejected onto your floor. Better out than in. Don't attempt to catch it, or you may drop the baby. I just put newspaper on the floor and caught it that way. If it is whooping cough, then the cough will become more regular. Maybe every hour, on the hour. This is because it takes around an hour for the mucus to pool at the bottom of the bronchial tube. Write the time of each coughing spell down at the beginning, to see if a pattern establishes. This will help with diagnosis. Why write it down? Because life will become so hectic you won't be able to remember, and your paper pad will be your memory. It will enable you to look back clearly, without panic, and see what the progression is.
That is how you manage the coughing.


She is also coughing because of the levels of pertussis toxin in the mucus, and in her body. The toxins can be neutralised by Vitamin C. In fact, its the only thing known to neutralise the pertussis toxins. That most doctors don't know that, is testimony to their own ignorance, not the fact that the information isn't out there.

It is.

Dr Thomas Levy has written a book about the usees of vitamin C in infectious diseases and Toxin-mediated diseases. Look his name up on Amazon.com. I'm sure you'll find the book.

There is a huge three volume text book on the subject, which I have, written by Professor Clemetson, but you know what? I, and one doctor, have the only two sets that reside in this tiny country I live in. Most other doctors don't even know that the medical publishing company CRC press every printed these texts, let alone what they say.

anyway, most of this, and more besides, was in the information I sent to her, and I think she PM'd it to me.

But please, think it over. Like I said, its your choice.
02-09-2005 03:09 AM
momto l&a MT, in Levy's book most of the vitamin C mentioned in the studies he compiled was given by IV or injection. The Dr that got you going on C did he ever mention giving C that way?

I would be interested in giving C that way should the need ever arise because of the vast amounts that can be gotten into the body in a short period of time.

What are your thoughts?
02-09-2005 02:48 AM
Momtezuma Tuatara
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMum
Well, we ended up at the ER, admitted, tested, antibiotics, oxygen. My doctor is a dumb ass. He could've caught this the first week of her life in my almost 6 year old son. He was at her birth, no wonder she caught it right away.
It would have made no difference, even had he caught it earlier. Anyway, he couldn't have. For the first week, it just looks like a cold, then you have a week where nothing really happens. Then the cough starts, and its not until the second week, that people put two and two together and join the dots. So usually by the time dots are put together, a month has elapsed from the actual point of bacterial infiltration.

Quote:
IMO we were too late for the vitamin C.
It's never too late for vitamin C.

I've taken babies with seizures and what looked like reflux as a result, and turned them around in 10 hours.

In 18 years, I've never had a failure with a mother who really wants an answer, and who does exactly as advised..

I cannot understand why you would think it is too late. What experience have you had of this in the past?

Quote:
She was coughing & turning blue way too often. It was too scarey.
Too scarey for what? What have you to gain NOT doing the vitamin C in both yourself and the baby?

Quote:
I should've looked for more information when ds exhibited the cough, but my Dr., who has always claimed to know pertussis & be so comfortable with treating it, was sure this wasn't pertussis.

dd2's PCR came back positive. The other kids were swabbed yesterday & we don't have the results back yet. Dd1 has been taking the ascorbic acid & its awful. I think I'll get the sodium ascorbate. We've all been given scripts for zythromax, so I'm off to fill those & get acidopholus. It's been a long week since I posted last.

And what are you going to do, when you find that Zithromax (Azithromycin) doesn't work? It never has, and never will, and neither does Erythromycin to which it is related... which is the drug normally prescribed for pertussis, not Zithromax...

Have you looked up the side effects for Zithromax?

They "say" that its generally well tolerated, but most studies were done in coherent (you would think) adults who could verbalise how they felt.

The side effects rates are higher than other comparable antibiotics. And be aware that Zithromax is way viler tasting than sodium ascorbate ever will be. And leaves a ghastly metallic taste in the mouth.

Here is some of what you need to know about this drug. Bear in mind, this is from the drug promoters website:

http://azithromycin.drugs.com/

Quote:
What are the possible side effects of azithromycin?
• If you experience any of the following serious side effects, stop taking azithromycin and seek emergency medical attention:
· an allergic reaction (difficulty breathing; closing of the throat; swelling of the lips, tongue, or face; or hives); or
· liver damage (yellowing of the skin or eyes, nausea, abdominal pain or discomfort, unusual bleeding or bruising, severe fatigue).
• Other, less serious side effects may be more likely to occur. Continue to take azithromycin and talk to your doctor if you experience
· nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, or abdominal pain;
· unusual dizziness, fatigue, or headache;
· vaginal yeast infection;
· a rash; or
· increased sensitivity to sunlight.
• Side effects other than those listed here may also occur. Talk to your doctor about any side effect that seems unusual or that is especially bothersome.
Tell me. How will you know if your baby has some of these? Is your baby going to tell you that she has a headache, dizziness, nausea, or can't stand looking into sunlight, or has liver discomfort?

funny how they don't list the other ones here....

Be aware that this drug is very hard on the liver as well.

Not that this may be relevant, since you might have snow right now, but think about this:

Quote:
• Avoid prolonged exposure to sunlight. Azithromycin may increase the sensitivity of the skin to sunlight. Use a sunscreen and wear protective clothing when exposure to the sun is unavoidable.
Exactly WHAT is this drug doing in the body, if you can't go out in sunlight while taking it?

Other side effects sites, are:

http://www.healthsquare.com/pdrfg/pd/monos/zithroma.htm

Quote:
There is a possibility of rare but very serious reactions to Zithromax, including angioedema (swelling of the face, lips, and neck that impedes speaking, swallowing, and breathing), anaphylaxis (a violent, even fatal allergic reaction), and serious skin diseases. If you develop these symptoms, stop taking Zithromax and call your doctor immediately.

More common side effects may include:
Abdominal pain, diarrhea or loose stools, nausea or vomiting


Less common side effects may include:
Blood in the stools, chest pain, dizziness, drowsiness, fatigue, gas, headache, heart palpitations, indigestion, itching, jaundice (yellowing of the skin and the whites of the eyes), kidney infection, light sensitivity, rash, severe allergic reaction including swelling (as in hives), vaginal inflammation, vertigo, yeast infection


Other uncommon side effects sometimes seen in children include:
Agitation, constipation, cough, facial swelling, feeling of illness, fever, fungal infection, insomnia, loss of appetite, nervousness, overactivity, pinkeye, runny nose, shortness of breath, sore throat, stomach inflammation, sweating
and note this special warning:

Quote:
Special warnings about this medication
Return to top

Like certain other antibiotics, Zithromax may cause a potentially life-threatening form of diarrhea called pseudomembranous colitis. Pseudomembranous colitis may clear up spontaneously when the drug is stopped; if it doesn't, hospital treatment may be required. If you develop diarrhea, check with your doctor immediately.

If you have a liver problem, your doctor should monitor you very carefully while you are taking Zithromax.
Are you REALLY happy to be doing this?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Quote:
Momtezuma Tuatara ~ I'll be copying all of this & saving it for other friends that go through this in the future. I wish I'd known all of this.

Makes me wonder what else I should know about other illnesses. This part of parenting is so hard.
Please.... don't just copy it and give it to your friends. DO what is suggested, now.

For yourself and your baby. Do not assume that Zithromax will frix everything, and at the same time, assume its too late for Vitamin C to work.

I've been there, done that, personally, not just with my own children, but also with eons of friend's children and grand children as well.

Sigh.

But its your choice. I can say no more than this.
02-09-2005 01:27 AM
momto l&a So sorry to hear about your dr. what a bummer.
The SA has a salty taste to it, for my girls I hide it in lemon aid.Dd # 1 doesnt care for it but she will drink it down. Dd #2 requests I put SA in hers and I can get a gram down her in one sippy cup
As for me I just dump a gram or 2 in a glass of water stir and drink.

I dont know if you already have a place to but SA but Bronson Laboratories had the best price last time I went looking. I bought 2.2 lbs ( item # 50B) :LOL

How is your dd doing now?

I have to agree with you though I have never been there when you said this part of parenting is hard. I keep wondering if I will have the knowledge and resources to deal with whatever will come our way.
02-08-2005 11:02 PM
AMum Well, we ended up at the ER, admitted, tested, antibiotics, oxygen. My doctor is a dumb ass. He could've caught this the first week of her life in my almost 6 year old son. He was at her birth, no wonder she caught it right away.

IMO we were too late for the vitamin C. She was coughing & turning blue way too often. It was too scarey. I should've looked for more information when ds exhibited the cough, but my Dr., who has always claimed to know pertussis & be so comfortable with treating it, was sure this wasn't pertussis.

dd2's PCR came back positive. The other kids were swabbed yesterday & we don't have the results back yet. Dd1 has been taking the ascorbic acid & its awful. I think I'll get the sodium ascorbate. We've all been given scripts for zythromax, so I'm off to fill those & get acidopholus. It's been a long week since I posted last.

Momtezuma Tuatara ~ I'll be copying all of this & saving it for other friends that go through this in the future. I wish I'd known all of this.

Makes me wonder what else I should know about other illnesses. This part of parenting is so hard.
02-05-2005 01:55 AM
Gitti I haven't had time to read all the posts, but did anyone mention PULSATILLA?

It is supposed to be given to children who have whooping cough.

Here's a link

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/a/anemo035.html

And I don't know whether you can just buy it or whether it has to be described by a D.O.?
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