Mothering Forums - Reply to Topic

Thread: Killing Frogs Reply to Thread
Title:
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Trackback:
Send Trackbacks to (Separate multiple URLs with spaces) :
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



  Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

  Topic Review (Newest First)
06-03-2005 04:15 PM
TigerTail
Quote:
Originally Posted by poppyqwn
...an egg fell out of the nest. My son came in crying that the kids had killed the baby bird inside. The egg had been smashed and poked at by several of the boys. (It cracked when it hit the ground and I couldn't have saved the bird)
this is soooo ot (well, it kind of works its way back on track :LOL), but recently we had a blue jay attack on our bluebird house, & the boys found the eggs/babies bloodied and on the ground beneath. one was dead, one was still writhing in agony but was hopeless (i put it quickly out of its misery, out of their sight- nothing they needed to see), but one, while still a little pecked, looked intact enough that i put it back in the nest. the parents, bless 'em, took care of it & it survived.

not saying *you* could've fixed the situation by the time you came into it, poppy, but i just wanted to mention that it isn't necessarily hopeless in all cases. in this instance, they were about ready to hatch anyway (and, of course, i could reach the nest.)

and i have no doubt that, had i not been immediately present, out of curiosity my sweet & empathetic 2 & 4 yr olds would have poked them with twigs in all innocence, not really understanding that what they were doing was 'cruel'. (see, i did bring it back on topic!)

suse
06-02-2005 08:53 PM
Peppermint
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moss's Mommy
no, I was being seriouse... really. Am I at the right website for this stuff?

Hey now, I am rather toward the TCS end of the spectrum here(I know, I know- TCS is not a "spectrum" thing :LOL), and know a fair bit about it myself, I also don't use "no" alone a lot or anything like that, though honestly- if I saw my ds flattening a frog like a pancake, that would likely be my first reaction "NO!"

I was laughing at the way you said that we who don't use "no" much would not understand Kaydee's talking about different ways to use the word.

I mean, seriously- just b/c you do your best to not say "no" to your child, and maybe are TCS, do you *seriously* not understand what she was saying?

IMO, unless you were raised TCS, only watch TCS family programming on TV (or don't have one ) have only TCS friends, etc.-- you would normally understand the use of the word, right?

Wether or not using "no" is appropriate was not something I intended to debate, I just am suprised that one would not understand the word just b/c they don't use it much, or try not to.

At least the heat is off of you IOF
06-02-2005 08:33 PM
Dechen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moss's Mommy
If my son were to flatten a frog like a pancake (i love how you described this, btw, writers in your family?????) and I were to say NO, he'd prolly do it again, and would be mad at me and rebel. If you hear no too much, you'd be desensitized to it.


The *best* way for me to ensure that dd will do something again is to say "No."
06-02-2005 08:22 PM
Moss's Mommy I've never really studied TCS, but I guess you could say that that's it in a nutshell. It just makes sense to me to not say it.... there's always a larger explanation than just saying no.... and if they hear no all the time, it gets a little bit repetitive... and annoying, I'm sure. Mine would do the exact opposite if I said no to him. It's kind of a let down.
I read Dr. Sear's books, and I think they discourage it too, but mainly it just seems common sense to me. Most parents that try to incorporate AP into their parenting style would agree with me I think, well I know.
If my son were to flatten a frog like a pancake (i love how you described this, btw, writers in your family?????) and I were to say NO, he'd prolly do it again, and would be mad at me and rebel. If you hear no too much, you'd be desensitized to it.
06-02-2005 08:13 PM
Satori Peppermint,

Those who don't use the word "No" to there children are usually TCS parents. http://www.eeng.dcu.ie/~tcs/FAQ/ Its not for every one but we do have a number of parents here who practice it. I cant imagine life without the N word
06-02-2005 08:04 PM
Moss's Mommy no, I was being seriouse... really. Am I at the right website for this stuff?
06-02-2005 05:57 PM
Peppermint Moss's Mommy- I thought you were being funny before with the "no" stuff, now am I the one who missed something? I still think it was funny :LOL .
06-02-2005 05:28 PM
Moss's Mommy kaydee.... I think we all agree on what you are saying... well, except for the "no" part...tee. hee.
and I'm pretty sure she's practiced that, taking it seriously, and I'm pretty sure she loves animals too.
06-02-2005 03:36 PM
Flor I just don't think that no matter how strongly I react to something that a toddler remembers that reaction months later.
06-02-2005 03:35 PM
spero
Quote:
Originally Posted by armonia
This is a strange thread to me and I am sorry you have read such hurtful comments. This thread is high on the frog love and low on the people love.
:
06-02-2005 03:26 PM
kaydee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moss's Mommy
BUT Kaydee... many of us here on MDC don't even use the word "no".... so we can't really comprehend what you are talking about.
Substitute your own GD or redirection phrase then or say it in pig latin or whatever works for your family.

Miss the point much? : (or did I miss some humor? )

ETA: I think most of us are here because we love children. Many of us also, however, love other animals, as well. It's possible to care for both human children AND nonhuman animals, believe it or not!

As I said in a PP, I think despite the contentiousness of this thread, the OP has gotten some good advice and feedback.
06-02-2005 03:21 PM
Peppermint
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moss's Mommy
BUT Kaydee... many of us here on MDC don't even use the word "no".... so we can't really comprehend what you are talking about.
:LOL good one!
06-02-2005 02:13 PM
Moss's Mommy BUT Kaydee... many of us here on MDC don't even use the word "no".... so we can't really comprehend what you are talking about.
06-02-2005 01:01 PM
Peppermint
Quote:
Originally Posted by armonia
This is a strange thread to me and I am sorry you have read such hurtful comments. This thread is high on the frog love and low on the people love.
Very well stated, I noticed that coming in late too.
06-02-2005 11:12 AM
armonia OnThe Fence.

I think it will all be fine since you are obviously concerned about the behavior and your son's psychologist is aware of the situation. You also said you have frogs everywhere where you live. He sees them all the time and has more opportunity. Not saying I condone it, but I think he is fine.

This is a strange thread to me and I am sorry you have read such hurtful comments. This thread is high on the frog love and low on the people love.
06-02-2005 03:42 AM
kaydee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flor
Well, of course!That was not the point. The point was that you have to repeat things many times before a toddler understands.
Yes yes yes. Toddlers must be told many times what we want them to do and not to do. On this we all agree, I think.

But I think this isn't just a question of *quantity* of responses, but also *quality*. This distinction is what I see missing in your posts, and what bothers me.

The "no" a parent gives to a child would (I hope) be qualitatively different than the "no" a parent gives to a child who just killed an animal.

I know that my 2yo dc can tell the difference between the response he gets, say, when he throws his food on the floor and the response he gets when he throws a metal toy truck in our face. He gets that one act is taken more seriously than the other--and he modifies his behavior accordingly. He throws food pretty regularly; throwing metal things in our face, not so much.

There is merit to taking a look at the situation from a toddler's POV, of course; but this doesn't mean that we oversimplify matters and downplay the seriousness of the act.
06-02-2005 01:48 AM
Flor
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaydee
And even if jumping on a bed and killing an animal seem similar to a toddler, they should NOT be treated the same by the adults in the toddler's life.
Well, of course!That was not the point. The point was that you have to repeat things many times before a toddler understands.
06-01-2005 06:10 PM
oceanbaby Whoops - please ignore.
06-01-2005 05:47 PM
kaydee Is the OPs child 3 or 4?

At any rate, many 3 yos DO understand that their actions cause pain to others. And even more 4 yos get that concept. (Some even understand death at that stage.)

We should use whatever terminology and concepts work for our child to help them treat other beings kindly, whether that's talking about hurting, killing, or "breaking."

And even if jumping on a bed and killing an animal seem similar to a toddler, they should NOT be treated the same by the adults in the toddler's life.
06-01-2005 04:42 PM
poppyqwn Hi there, I just want to preface this by saying I have not read all 200+ post. I read the orginal and a few off of each page. I have three little boys and my oldest is a sensitive gentle child at 6. However at 3 it was a very different story. He never intenionally hurt animals, he has a pet cat he has had since he was a toddler, but he did things like pull the wings off of butterflies and legs of grasshoppers. I would always tell him that wasn't kind and we need to always respect all living creatures, but those were big ideas for such a little guy. I kept repeating it, but over the years there have been many buggies and small creatures that have met their demise.
A few weeks ago we discovered a nest in the tree in our front yard, it is a great climbing tree and attracts many kidos. While some of the kids were climbing it an egg fell out of the nest. My son came in crying that the kids had killed the baby bird inside. The egg had been smashed and poked at by several of the boys. (It cracked when it hit the ground and I couldn't have saved the bird) My son, who I would have been expecting to poke at it, was truely upset. The only thing that had changed since he was 3 was that he now knew someone who had died. My husband's grandfather who we had visited many times and DS really loved. The concept of death was not something he could grasp at 3 and now at 6 he knows what death means and he doesn't want to see anything die. I just think that kids have a natural curiousity and when combined with their lack of maturity and experience we can not expect them to comphened things like killing frogs on an adult level. If your child were 6 or older and kiling frogs for fun I may be concerned, but at 3, no way. I would just keep teaching it is not acceptable and wait for his maturity of the subject to come with time and teaching. JMO...
06-01-2005 04:13 PM
Flor
Quote:
Originally Posted by skellbelle
Not to an older child or an adult, no. But in a 3-yr old's mind, naughty behavior is naughty behavior. There usually isn't much degree of separation there at that age, IMO.
Ok, fine. Poking, biting, pushing, saying hurtful things. . .still don't think 3 times in a year is a sign of anything other than toddlerhood.
06-01-2005 03:36 PM
Peppermint OTF, first of all I haven't *seen* you in a while, congrats on the baby in utero. (I am formerly jess7396 from the c-section threads)

Anywho- I just spent all of naptime reading all of this drama and only have a minute to respond.

I have a 3.5 yo son and am horrified by some of the things he does, including purposefully stepping on ants . My take on it as a mom and former preschool teacher is that is is pretty "normal" for kids to do this kind of thing, and that, you simply have to work hard at developing empathy for the frogs, and other small creatures. You've gotta talk about the pain they experience and maybe bring some spiritual beliefs into your talks with your ds.

I don't think that your ds is a sociopath or anything like that, and I don't think it is necessarily "abnormal" but as you have maintained- it is not "ok" for him to do this, so- talking, supervising frog play for a while, etc. should do the trick, IMO. Yep- you gotta protect the froggies but remain gentle with your little guy in teaching him this lesson as well.

Good luck, and I am so sorry this thread veered the way it did, I hope you got some advice you could work with to keep the froggies and your ds safe.
06-01-2005 03:04 PM
spero
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaydee
True. Toddlers are still learning about impulse control. But jumping on a bed is not the same thing as killing a small animal.
Not to an older child or an adult, no. But in a 3-yr old's mind, naughty behavior is naughty behavior. There usually isn't much degree of separation there at that age, IMO.
06-01-2005 02:42 PM
Foobar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaydee
True. Toddlers are still learning about impulse control. But jumping on a bed is not the same thing as killing a small animal.
Why not? Think in terms of a 3 year old. What does death mean to a 3 year old? I like the poster who told her kids that the animals would be broken....Kids understand broken, they don't get dead or kill or sometimes hurt. Hurt is reserved for people, not animals for some kids....
05-31-2005 06:40 PM
kaydee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flor
If you told a 3 year old to not jump on the bed and then they did it three times over the course of a year...
True. Toddlers are still learning about impulse control. But jumping on a bed is not the same thing as killing a small animal.
05-31-2005 05:56 PM
Flor
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain crunchy

I don't know how much small children understand the concept of right and wrong the way we do, but my arguement goes to general inate character of children and while I feel most children are curious creatures... it has been my years and years of experience that they don't have the desire to flatten animals "like pancakes" just because. Yes, sometimes they want to play with them, chase them, see how they "work" and because children aren't the most gentle at times...they can inadvertantly hurt an animal (which isn't right either) ... but it is very, very rare that I have come across a child who seeks out and wants to kill an animal just to see it die....and would be worried if they did. That's all.
I missed the part where the child wanted it to die. I thought he wanted to flatten it like a pancake-- an important distinction, I think to a toddler who doesn't quite understand how things work.

Obviously I am in the camp of those who have seen a lot of different kinds of kids do this. It is sad to me as an adult, but not shocking.
05-31-2005 05:19 PM
Flor
Quote:
Originally Posted by lckrause
I did read the entire thread before posting, and I stand by my comments. With the proviso of cmb123 above... it's the continuing behavior that's disturbing to me, not a one-off thing that a kid felt really bad about (like Moss's Mommy and the snake or another poster's husband and the duck).

I'm not saying every kid who repeatedly kills animals is a future serial killer, but as you noted yourself, it is something to at least be concerned about.

ETA: Concerned about the animal killing, not about being a serial killer. Just realized that could be taken the wrong way, hehe.
I really don't think that a 4 year old doing something 3 times over the course of a year is repeated behavior. Think about it in another context. If you told a 3 year old to not jump on the bed and then they did it three times over the course of a year. . . or you told them not to push their brother and yet over the course of a year this violent behavior happened again. . ..

What can you tell a 3/4 year old to not do and have them understand the first (or second or third) time? Show me one child development book that says a toddler will listen/understand/obey after being told once!
05-31-2005 02:29 AM
kaydee
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain crunchy

People are reacting so strongly because it is a serious situation. Killing an animal to watch it die, which is what you described in your first post, is not something a lot of people would take lightly. I understand you aren't taking it lightly in theory, but when people try to suggest that maybe it is something you should look into, or *can*...not is, *can* be an indicator of something more serious... I see you brushing it off like it is completely normal, every day, "boy" behavior.

It's not.

It is completely normal to come to the defense of yourself, your son, your parenting when you percieve that others are attacking that and I am sorry that you felt that way. You have to understand though, at a place like mothering, where people for the most part are touchy-feely crunchy as it is... a small child killing frogs for fun/curiosity/to see it flatten like a pancake...more than once... is not going to go over with cheers and applause. I am not saying that is what you expected, but it appears that you maybe thought more people would shrug and say something like "yeah that sucks, but don't worry about it."...
Captain Crunchy:

To the OP: it sounds like, despite all the hub-bub, you have gotten some practical advice.

To me, the feedback boils down to this: take this behaviors seriously; monitor your dc's behavior closely; make a conscious effort to work with your dc on empathy towards animals, whether through actual contact with animals or media featuring animal (and, perhaps, examine some of your family's attitudes towards animals that may be sending confusing mixed messages to your dc); be aware that harming animals *can in some cases* be a sign of more serious behavioral problems; continue loving your boy wholly, but not blindly.

Does this feedback help you?
05-30-2005 01:11 PM
OnTheFence
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechen
I totally agree. And I don't blame OTF for feeling defensive. I think she was open to hearing that this was disturbing, but not to being told her child was a sociopath or the like.
YEP! That was it in a nut shell.
05-30-2005 01:09 PM
OnTheFence
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain crunchy
I guess my thing is, if you know your child so well... if this is completely "normal"... if he has no issues whatsoever... why do we need a 200 page thread about it?

I am not trying to be flip honestly, but normal behavior usually doesn't require 200 responses. In other words, if my 2 year old like, bit me during nursing, I am sure I wouldn't get 200 responses...this is something that happens every day of the week on Mothering...
Lets see, I have no control how many people respond to this. In fact several posters got off on their own tangents about being a vegan etc. I never said my child had no issues or that it was completely normal either -- I've gone with the track that yes it falls under normal behavior for his age after responses I got here and elsewhere.
So when you are asking why I need a 200 response thread about it, why don't you look at the people who responded to it -- multiple times?

As I said I will be wary of ever asking a parenting question or concern in this forum again. This thread has been locked 2 or 3 times since the beginning -- and I was more than happy to see it closed after SOME of the responses I got.
This thread has more than 30 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off