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  Topic Review (Newest First)
09-01-2005 05:40 PM
Plummeting I also wanted to add that we are pretty sure DD had pertuss at around 5 months. I've talked to another mother whose DD had it and they had the exact same symptoms. I also posted her symptoms here and everyone said it sounded like pertuss. Well, it wasn't a big deal. She would have coughing spells a few times a day for 6 or 8 weeks. She'd cough so hard she'd throw up and her face would turn purple. But then she'd catch her breath and act just fine. It never even occurred to me to take her to the doctor because it only happened a few times a day and she was completely fine in between. I have listened to the sound byte of WC online and it sounded exactly the same. I'm convinced my DD had it and it was no big deal. Just last week there were two studies posted, both of which concluded that WC is not as severe as parents have been led to believe. They actually said that in the study. Also in the study, there were *more* vaccinated kids hospitalized for it than unvaccinated kids. The number was not statistically significant, so the point isn't really that more were hospitalized, but rather that being vaccinated didn't make the disease any less likely to result in hospitalization.
09-01-2005 05:17 PM
Momtezuma Tuatara
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwebbal
Theory? From what I have read there have been verified studies showing this. Anecdotal evidence about your son isn't enough imo to suggest that no one get the vaccine. Pertussis is a very serious problem, I think it needs serious consideration, and vaccines CAN help prevent or lessen the infection.
Just a point here.

Jwebbal, epidemiological studies mean NOTHING when it comes to seriousness of disease. There is a fantastic study by James Cherry, who must have forgot himself when he said it, that pointed out that nearly all pertussis studies suffered from "observer" bias. If children were vaccinated, observers considered the whooping cough mild. If they weren't, it was considered more serious.

I've read just about everything I could get my hands on on Pertussis, and just usually chuckle now when I read epidemiological studies.

For instance, anything written by Offit I can guarantee the result before he applies for funding.

Coming back to seriousness of a disease.

No study can assess that on an individual basis. Oh, the doctors can say "Based on X study, your child has a chance of 1 per 300" but frankly, that's ridiculous.

Just as it would be ridiculous for a doctor to say to me that my chances of arthritis from a rubella shot were less than 14 per thousand. (figure out of a hat)

Well, actually, I happen to be in that 14 per thousand figure out of a hat.

For me I was "it". Why? Because of the way my immune system processed that vaccine, and no study could cover that.

The year that my children got whooping cough, they were numbers 70 and 71 in the practice, and of the children up to that time they were the only two unvaccinated children. Both of them got it the mildest in the practice/Why? Because I'm a knowledgeable parents, know how to manage and treat whooping cough and refused to use antibiotics, that's why.

And that's a confounding no epidemiological study can allow for. If all the parents of babies with whooping cough are morons, then the severity level will be huge. If all parents of babies with whooping cough were like me, then the severity level would be minimal.

No study can adjust for a baby's immunological status, or the brains or lack of, of the parents involved.

Therefore such studies are as invalid as is the use of anecdote.

A child is only going to be as well as the parents ability to think, and work out appropriate treatment.

And this factor is also a failing in Dr Sear's workshop. Because babies in a practice that doesn't understand how to treat whooping cough will have far more severe disease than babies in a heretical practice that does understand how to treat it. "Stupid" doctors are as much of a health hazard to babies as "stupid" parents.

Whooping cough need never be severe in babies, and if they are in the practice of Dr Sears, that may be a reflection of two things. One, his lack of understanding of the mechanics of the illness and the best way to treat it, and his inability to pass that on to his parents effectively, and the lack of understanding of his parents. Though I would have thought that the thinking ability of parents going to his practice would be at the higher end of the scale.

In my opinion, Dr Sears has done inadequate homework as of now. I don't agree with his schedule, and believe that it reflects his own insecurities, not the realities of the diseases as they could be dealt with from the basis of full knowledge.
09-01-2005 09:10 AM
Plummeting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwebbal
Prevnar, common and serious meningitis, safe ingredients, more chance of side effects, 4/5 score recommended
I won't comment on all the rest of it, because everyone else has done that very well. I'm commenting on this part for one reason only. Prevnar contains soy protein. Soy is one of the most common food allergens on the planet. How can it be safe to inject soy into babies who are still so young no one knows if they're allergic to it or not? Isn't that just stupid? My DD is very allergic to soy - if I eat soy she projectile vomits and poops blood, among other things. Stupid me didn't know Prevnar was going to come up first time we went in, so I hadn't researched it. I had decided to do Hib and Polio (can't really remember why I thought those were important a year later). Anyway, doc tells me what Prevnar is for and I say, "Oh, that sounds important. Let's do that one." Needless to say, DD was *extremely* ill. And yes, I know it was from the Prevnar because next time we got only Hib and Polio and she wasn't *nearly* as sick. We stopped completely after those last two.

Anyway, my ped *knew* DD was allergic to soy, but apparently didn't even know soy was in the shot. How is that safe? It makes my blood boil thinking about it. She didn't nurse more than twice a day for a full week. Her temp was 103 to 105 for a full week. The doctor was unconcerned. She even thought we should continue with the full course of Prevnar. Idiot. How is it safe to inject a *highly* allergenic substance into newborns? How?

ETA: I realized it sounds like I'm attacking you as the poster with these questions, but I'm really not! Sorry about that! I'm just so angry about what happened and I can't understand how no one sees the problem with highly allergenic ingredients in vaccines. To elaborate, it is stupid enough that they've fallen hook, line and sinker for the nonsense that poisons like thimerosal and aluminum are safe. But to then begin believing that it is so safe to inject highly allergenic substances into babies - even the ones that have been *confirmed* to be allergic to said substances?!?! That is just unthinkably moronic. My doctor didn't even tell me it was in there. If my child's allergy was more severe, it could have killed her! And I, being the good patient, would have allowed it because they didn't even give me the information I needed to make a good decision. Being military, apparently they aren't required to hand out the vaccine info sheets before shots.
09-01-2005 01:58 AM
applejuice As a chiropractor, my Father would tell most people who suffered from joint pain to get rid of their aluminium pots and pans and not to eat anything if it is cooked in aluminium. If you eat out, do you know if your food is cooked in it?

It almost always worked for his clients to stop cooking in aluminium. If you use any fluoride in your mouthwash, toothpaste or water, be advised that fluoride is a waste byproduct of the aluminium industry. Aluminium chloride is an active ingredient in antiperspirants.

Aluminium is present in many foods, yes, but we do not need to be taking it in our bodies in huge amounts or having it injected into our bodies through vaccines. Aluminium is in the autopsied brains of Alzheimer's Disease, and we do not know if this is a cause of the disease or a result of the disease. Just the same, it is probably a good idea not to be deliberately taking aluminium into our bodies knowingly.
06-11-2005 08:07 AM
wednesday
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwebbal
Now as to fullheart's quotes from above. Let's be clear here, there are TWO Pertussis vaccines, whole cell and acellular. To use the whole cell arguments against the DTaP vaccine is disingenuous. The above is talking about whole cell, WE are not discussing whole cell, at least I am not.
I would agree that using the data on reactions to DPT as an argument against DTaP would be flawed, but fullheart's quote actually related to the efficacy of DPT in preventing pertussis...and the current medical literature states that DTaP is actually less effective than the old DPT. So fullheart's quote is not totally irrelevant.
06-11-2005 12:37 AM
Soogie Just an aside on aluminum, from personal experience and not scientific data. Many years back, my mom had an aluminum cookware set. During that time, my mom was having severe lapses in memory, decreased sensory perception, and a feeling that she described as a "tingling on her head." She went for an mri, cat scan, blood work, all normal. Her doctor fortunately asked her about what type of products she used, ie cleaning products, health and beauty aids etc, and then she off handedly mentioned the pots. And it triggered a red flag for the doctor and a possible cause to all of her problems. He told her to throw them out immediately. Within a month or so of doing that, she was getting better, life for her returned to normal. I don't think it was a coincidence.

Though she got "better' then, I believe it had a lasting toxicity. My mom was diagnosed with brain cancer about 10 years after this and died a short 15 months later. We will never know the "cause", but I really do think the aluminum was a trigger.

Had I known what I do now, my ds and dd, would not have received *any* vaxes. ds #3 will continue to be vax free.
06-10-2005 07:14 PM
mom2tig99Nroo03
Quote:
Originally Posted by xerxes
Bob's definitely on the right path. I wish he'd get around to doing his homework on aluminum, though. I think that the more he learns, the shorter his list will become. And I say that meaning to give him credit because a large majority of doctors wouldn't think to change their minds on this issue.

:yes
06-10-2005 02:11 PM
xerxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon
if we, as doctors, had known how much mercury we were injecting into babies, we would have questioned vaccine manufacturers years ago
That's disturbing because there's absolutely no reason he shouldn't have known how much mercury he was injecting into babies. Such a colossal mistake would preclude me from trusting his opinion on other vaccine ingredients.

Plus he really should speak only for himself because many doctors were questioning vaccine manufacturers long ago.
06-10-2005 01:47 PM
amnesiac Since we're now on the topic of Dr Gordon, here's another interesting quote:

"I believe it's possible that many developmental disorders may have been caused by mercury over the years, and that if we, as doctors, had known how much mercury we were injecting into babies, we would have questioned vaccine manufacturers years ago."
(Ask the Pediatrician column, Fit Pregnancy, April-May 2003 issue)

He's actually done online chats hosted by parenting forums as well & I've found him to be refreshingly candid. Since he's already stated they gave mercury to babies without even realizing the harm that was being done, I wonder perhaps if his opinions about other vaccine components might evolve some day as well.
06-10-2005 12:59 PM
Jwebbal http://www.drjaygordon.com/pediatricks/vacc2004.htm
06-10-2005 12:47 PM
Jwebbal nak

http://www.drjaygordon.com/pediatricks/vacctoday.htm
06-10-2005 11:20 AM
amnesiac Since you mentioned that Dr Gordon was there as well, I thought I'd add this link just for interest. This is an old pertussis discussion back when Dr Gordon visited here for a while:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=147447
06-09-2005 08:26 PM
xerxes BTW, it certainly wasn't disingenuous for me not to mention the concentrations of aluminum in my first post since the articles I cited discuss this in their research. You need to actually read them to get that info. I didn't post that stuff thinking only the titles were relevant. I think people looking into DPT should actually go get the articles and read them. Now I'm not saying you personally have to go and read that stuff. It's sufficient to say that there's no point in debating the relevance of the information in these scientifically peer-reviewed articles if only one of us has read them.
06-09-2005 08:08 PM
Full Heart
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jwebbal
Theory? From what I have read there have been verified studies showing this. Anecdotal evidence about your son isn't enough imo to suggest that no one get the vaccine. Pertussis is a very serious problem, I think it needs serious consideration, and vaccines CAN help prevent or lessen the infection.

If you have those studies please post. There was a thread I started not too long ago when I was complaing about the HD and our WC and someone asked that question. No one had any links I don't think. My 4yr old isnt the only person I have seen with a mild case that wasn't vaxed btw. I guess I can keep my anecdotal evidence out of this forum.

Michelle
06-09-2005 08:06 PM
xerxes The amount of aluminum in vaccines is far greater (logarithmically so) than concentrations measured to be neurotoxic. I agree that the amount is important but aluminum is in vaccines in doses that exceed what has been found to cause tissue damage. Also the form it is in (aluminum hydroxide) is highly dissociable so the equilibrium of Al ions in the blood and tissue is proportionally very high. One last point, the articles I cited - all of them - support vaccination. They are primary research articles. You can analyze their experimental methods and determine for yourself if their conlusions are legitimate. And they were all published in peer-reviewed scientific journals (not the newspaper or some advocacy website).

All I'm saying is that it's probably a good idea to seriously consider aluminum in the risk/benefit analysis of aluminum containing vaccines (such as DPT). So when you hear Bob saying that the ingredients in DPT are safe but he hasn't mentioned aluminum, you have to wonder about that.
06-09-2005 07:40 PM
amnesiac
Quote:
The concern shouldn't be over just the ingredient, but how MUCH?
I think opinions vary about that. For me personally, a little bit of mercury isn't really ok no matter where it's from & I really do try to reduce exposure from all sources. I wouldn't choose a thimerosal preserved vaccine, I don't eat seafood & if I found out I lived near a coal burning power plant I'd move. That's just me though because I know that for plenty of folks, the dose is what makes the poison. So if you feel that just a little bit more can't hurt then I'm all for your right to make that choice.

I feel that same about aluminum although I might be willing to consider one aluminum containing vaccine but it wouldn't have pertussis in it. I don't find pertussis vaccines to be effective enough to justify their use.

Quote:
Now as to fullheart's quotes from above. Let's be clear here, there are TWO Pertussis vaccines, whole cell and acellular. To use the whole cell arguments against the DTaP vaccine is disingenuous. The above is talking about whole cell, WE are not discussing whole cell, at least I am not.
I assume maybe the DTwP info was for historical purposes since she immediately followed it with the DTaP info?? wP didn't work well as it was & what we have now is a trade off. Even lower efficacy in exchange for lower reactogenicity. Maybe the little bit that it can work sometimes is enough for a lot of parents, just not me.
06-09-2005 07:07 PM
Jwebbal As for who to listen to when it comes to vaccines, my personal preference is to talk vaccines with doctors. Now mind you I use accupuncture, and have used natural medicine. But I don't want to get information ONLY from a anti vax doctor, doesnt seem to make sense if you ask me. I liked Dr. Sears and Dr. Gordon because they obviously read and interpret the studies (its what they are taught to do, plus they have the ability to see through vax promotion for the sake of profit), and come up with some tempered conclusions. I am not of a mind that all vaccines are bad, and that no one should get them. Herd immunity is a real issue. Obviously each family gets to make their own decisions, and that is fine, but if everyone decided not to vax, there would be a real ressurgence of some of these diseases. Again, I am not of a mind to believe all the anti vax stuff out there, medicine has helped me and my family over the years, we are not throwing out modern medicine because it has some problems. We just want to be informed, and make our decisions from a place of increased knowledge, not blind trust.

Dr. Sears recommended two books on vax, Dr. Cave's and Romm?

Quote:
The effects of whole-cell pertussis vaccine wane after 5 to 10 years, and infection in a vaccinated person causes nonspecific symptoms (3-7). Vaccinated adolescents and adults may serve as reservoirs for silent infection and become potential transmitters to unprotected infants (3-11). The whole-cell vaccine for pertussis is protective only against clinical disease, not against infection (15-17). Therefore, even young, recently vaccinated children may serve as reservoirs and potential transmitters of infection.
Now as to fullheart's quotes from above. Let's be clear here, there are TWO Pertussis vaccines, whole cell and acellular. To use the whole cell arguments against the DTaP vaccine is disingenuous. The above is talking about whole cell, WE are not discussing whole cell, at least I am not.

As to ingredients in vaccines. Yes, I am certainly concerned about them. But to talk about toxicity with certain ingredients is again disingenuous if you don't talk about how MUCH is in the vaccines. We all ingest aluminum, polysorbate is contained in many things, heck we inhale and ingest mercury as well, and even formeldehyde. The concern shouldn't be over just the ingredient, but how MUCH? Obviously each child is different, every vaccine contains different things, of varying amounts. We need to weigh all the risks obviously, and of course different people will come to different conclusions.

Quote:
I also don't belive the theory that vaxing makes the disease less severe. My 4 yr old wasn't vaxed and his case was the mildest amongst my kids.
Theory? From what I have read there have been verified studies showing this. Anecdotal evidence about your son isn't enough imo to suggest that no one get the vaccine. Pertussis is a very serious problem, I think it needs serious consideration, and vaccines CAN help prevent or lessen the infection.
06-09-2005 05:05 PM
amnesiac One more thing- Neustaedter is actually not an osteopath, but rather a doctor of oriental medicine, a homeopath & an accupuncturist.
06-09-2005 05:02 PM
amnesiac Here's some of the stuff I was thinking of to give you an idea - some of this is stuff I started reading several years ago when my kids were little so there may be others more current:
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...s;97/3/413.pdf

http://www.bio.unipd.it/~zatta/aluminum.html
http://www.bio.unipd.it/~zatta/metals/DOCUMEN2.HTM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...13&query_hl=34

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...87&query_hl=37

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...98&query_hl=40
06-09-2005 03:21 PM
Chele I don't know if you have heard of the book "The Vaccine Guide" but it does pretty much the same thing you said sears did. Goes over each illness in detail trying to give you a personal strategy for what to do and when. The book is loaded with references, pages and pages of them in the back, and the author Randall Nuestaedter is an osteopathic doctor. I feel that he is a better resource, not being a pediatrican, because ped. are so targeted by the companies selling the vaccines. This book is one of the best I have seen. I believe vaccine info is best gotten from someone other than a ped. Although if you are familiar with Dr. Mendelson's book, "How to raise a healthy child inspite of your doctor" that is also good and he is an anti-vax pediatrican.
06-09-2005 03:08 PM
amnesiac BTW- I didn't look through the links Xerxes gave you, so much of this is probably covered in those.
06-09-2005 03:04 PM
amnesiac I dislike aluminum for a few different reasons. This is the short version because I have munchkins waiting to bake cookies today! The first thing I ever read about aluminum that freaked me out was an AAP report regarding Al toxicity in children. Just go over to their site & search for "aluminum". It's not specifically about any single source, but it does discuss lots of unknowns about exposure. Because I was a dumb , my preemies were on soy formula & after I read that report I could have just died & really wanted to prevent more aluminum exposure.

These I will have to go search for over at PubMed at some point because I don't keep things on file or you can find them for yourself there. Actually Boyd Haley may have them all listed at his site too, you ought to check his site out. You know that study that was just published recently showing how mercury was indeed transported to brain tissue when injected as thimerosal in a vaccine? There was one like that done about 10 years ago showing that aluminum is also transported to brain tissue when injected as vaccine adjuvant. Also if you search for "aluminum toxicology" or "aluminum neurotoxicology" you'll find some things. Obviously this isn't a complete list & I'm sorry I don't have an exact location for these for you right this minute, but it's a start anyway.
06-09-2005 02:41 PM
xerxes I just wanted to add that I support a parent's decision to get DPT. I know that pertussis is more frequent and easier to get than most of the other vax diseases. But we should also be aware of the dangers of aluminum.
06-09-2005 02:32 PM
xerxes Gosh there are hundreds or articles detailing the neurotoxic effects of aluminum. In the primary research where scientists are writing for other scientists, the issue is not debatable - it's stated as fact early on in the article sometimes first thing in the abstract. Here's an example of very recent stuff I was looking up just the other day:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...38&query_hl=23

In addition to the many articles that detail the neurotoxic effects of aluminum in the brain, there is research that shows that the aluminum in vaccines goes quickly into the brain and that aluminum can also remain at the injection site for several years after injection. Aluminum adjuvanted shots have been shown to be the cause of macrophagic myofasciitis:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...584&query_hl=6

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...387&query_hl=6

MMF (caused by aluminum adjuvanted vaccine injections) is linked to chronic fatique:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...868&query_hl=6

The research into why aluminum has an adjuvant effect is illuminating as it also describes how aluminum stimulates autoimmune reactions. The antigenic nature of the HepB virus linked to aluminum is responsible for autoimmune diseases. There is so much published research on this, here's one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...55&query_hl=15

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...512&query_hl=6

I'm just a casual collector of research articles and I have over fifty detailing the toxic and neurotoxic effects of aluminum. I offered a small sample but a little searching will quickly turn up many more. Two of the article's I cited are from this year. There's new stuff coming out all the time.

Since I feel that Bob is taking a good approach to vaccination but says that the ingredients in DTP are safe (aluminum is in there) I have to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he's simply ignorant of all this research. Perhaps if he gets exposed to the research he'll re-evaluate his risk assessment of aluminum and drop aluminum adjuvanted vaccines from his short list. At the very least he should mention that aluminum is a well known neurotoxin. Or indicate to his followers that he includes aluminum neurotoxicity in his risk/safety assessment.

And as far as positive research detailing aluminum's safety - there aren't any. Although such testing is required of the viral and bacterial components in vaccines, the same type of clinical trials have never been done for aluminum.
06-09-2005 01:25 PM
Full Heart I agree with everyone on the DTP. Not just because my kids have survived it either. Pertussis is coming back strong even in places with very high vax rates. No matter how many people they vax pertussis cases keep climbing. http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol6no4/demelker.htm

http://www.whoopingcough.net/complications.htm With so few deaths with such a great number of cases I think that whooping cough isn't so severe as everyone thinks it is. Yes it is really bad for babies under 6 mos, but most babies under 6 mos don't get it. After seeing what its like I have to say there are probably a great deal many people walking around with it contagious and not even know it. http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol6no5/srugo.htm
Quote:
The effects of whole-cell pertussis vaccine wane after 5 to 10 years, and infection in a vaccinated person causes nonspecific symptoms (3-7). Vaccinated adolescents and adults may serve as reservoirs for silent infection and become potential transmitters to unprotected infants (3-11). The whole-cell vaccine for pertussis is protective only against clinical disease, not against infection (15-17). Therefore, even young, recently vaccinated children may serve as reservoirs and potential transmitters of infection.
And another: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5128a2.htm
Quote:
Despite record high vaccination coverage levels with 3 doses of DTaP among U.S. children aged 19--35 months (3), pertussis continues to cause fatal illness among vulnerable infants. During 1980--1998, the average annual incidence of reported pertussis cases and deaths among U.S. infants increased 50% (4). The increased morbidity and mortality occurred primarily among infants aged <4 months, who were too young to have received the recommended three DTaP vaccinations at ages 2, 4, and 6 months
I think if we want to reduce the number of babies who die from pertussis we need to learn how to identify the illness earlier so that we can keep those people away from babies under 6 mos old and teach them proper hygeine so that they reduce the likelyhood of transmitting the disease. Because obviously the vax doesn't work even in herd immunity theory of protecting those too young to get the vax. I also don't belive the theory that vaxing makes the disease less severe. My 4 yr old wasn't vaxed and his case was the mildest amongst my kids.

Thats not even getting into the ingredients or the side effects from the vax.

Michelle
06-09-2005 12:52 PM
DesireeH
Quote:
Aluminum:
EDF Suspected - cardiovascular or blood toxicant, neurotoxicant,
respiratory toxicant. More hazardous than most chemicals in 2 out of 6
ranking systems on at least 2 federal regulatory lists
Quote:
Formaldehyde:
EDF Recognized - carcinogen
Suspected - gastrointestinal or liver toxicant, immunotoxicant,
neurotoxicant, reproductive toxicant, respiratory toxicant
skin or sense organ toxicant
More hazardous than most chemicals in 5 out of 12 ranking systems on
at
least 8 federal regulatory lists Ranked as one of the most hazardous
compounds (worst 10%) to ecosystems and human health
Quote:
Polysorbate:
EDF Suspected - skin or sense organ toxicant
These ingredients are also in the DTaP: http://www.*********/vaccines/ingredients1.html
06-09-2005 12:49 PM
DesireeH
Quote:
The P is only needed in infancy, and it is very serious in children under 1 year.
Except for that they wouldnt receive the FULL series until they were almost a year anyways.

My ped (when we went) actually said he had seen the worst reactions from the pertussis vaccine.
06-09-2005 12:36 PM
Jwebbal Amnesiac, care to share your information sources for your aluminum concerns?
06-09-2005 12:11 PM
HelloKitty Hmmm, interesting. Thank you so much for posting - wish I could have been at that workshop! Sounds wonderful.
06-09-2005 12:03 PM
amnesiac
Quote:
Some of the stuff I read on here has me scratching my head sometimes. Conspiracy theories, etc.
I certainly agree with you about that.


Quote:
He also said that there are no worrisome ingredients and no animal tissues used.
This I do disagree with though. The aluminum content is something I do happen to find worrisome.


Quote:
As to the Prevnar vac, he talked about how serious this disease is, and how common ... Obviously deciding on what to do is a decision each parent has to make
For me, it's important to consider who the people are that usually get invasive pneumococcal disease too, not just the nuber of cases. That may make a difference in how one family assesses their individual risks in comparison to another.
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